How strong was Angeal? And other questions.

[Gale]

I'd like to go on record to say that right up until it turned to a CGI cutscene I loved the ending.

The effect of the DMW during the fight with the three MP's was to my taste, I just felt like everything after that was a case of heavy handed "NO NO DON'T BE TOO SAD DON'T WORRY THERE'S A SILVER LINING."

Almost won me back over with the ending line from Zack, though.

 

[ForceStealer]

Silver lining? What silver lining did it offer? Would that be the chest full of bullet holes or Cloud screaming in anguish?

I understand wishing for the stark reality of just having Zack be dead and not be able to speak to Cloud, but I wouldn't say the scene was trying to feed us a silver lining.

 

[Loxetta]

I can enjoy the ending of CC as it is, but it was way too sugar-coated. With CC being from Zack's POV, it makes sense to see Zack entering the Lifestream the way he would experience it, not just his body turning into mako-sperm. But the J-pop and the monologues? Get real. Zack got shot in the face. After fighting a whole battalion of guys with swords and machine guns and rocket launchers and helicopters boasting missiles by himself. After being a wanted man running all over the Planet with an unconscious person to feed, care for and protect for a year. After being a lab experiment for four years. After having to fight and/or kill his friends and people he looked up to after they went wacko. The biggest tragedy of Zack's character is that he deserves a happy ending and he does not get it. The ending of CC cheapens that.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I can't be the only person who liked Ayaka's "Why"...c'mon.

I liked it.

 

[Roger]

Same here, thought it was an awesome ending.

 

[Gale]

Silver lining? What silver lining did it offer? Would that be the chest full of bullet holes or Cloud screaming in anguish?

I understand wishing for the stark reality of just having Zack be dead and not be able to speak to Cloud, but I wouldn't say the scene was trying to feed us a silver lining.

I think the fact that they offer Zack a chance to speak to Cloud one last time is a shallow attempt at softening the blow. No one would debate that Zack, after everything he went through and how optimistic he remained, deserves that chance. But the key to Zack's story and even most of Crisis Core is that bad things happen to good people. They're manipulated, abused, devalued and disposed of. Under different circumstances, better circumstances, almost all of them could have led happy lives. But the forces they're caught up in never allow that to happen.

The tragedy of what happens to Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth echos through Zack's own story, but in Zack's case he tries to remain a good person - and does. That's the most powerful aspect of Zack's story. It would say more to me for Zack to die protecting Cloud, never getting the chance to speak to him again or knowing that he will recover. Zack may deserve that, but him not getting that chance speaks even more to the unfairness of not only the world but the powerful people who control it. Not only that, but it shows Zack's faith. Even though he has no way of knowing that Cloud will ever recover, he's too good of a person and a friend to leave him behind. The tragedy of Zack is then resolved by Cloud's own story. The selfless acts that allowed Cloud to survive give him an opportunity to reach his potential and finally stop all these forces that allowed people like Zack to be murdered ruthlessly.

The silver lining aspect always existed in Zack's story, but the way SE had him speak to Cloud about it oozed of melodrama.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Gale, you are absolutely right.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I always figured Angeal was pretty damn strong. I mean, look at the flashback to the three Jenova subjects training together. At one point, Sephiroth casually blocks a combined strike from Angeal and Genesis with one freaking hand. Then later, when Sephiroth and Genesis get serious and might kill each other, Angeal blocks a strike from the Masamune and a swing of Genesis' Rapier at the same time.

That's fucking hardcore, dude. Sure, it's only one instance to go by, but its still very impressive to me.

Now, on the subject of Zack's death. I liked his final talk with Cloud. Keep in mind that despite Cloud finding the strength to crawl to Zack's side, he still mostly looks totally out of it as Zack talks. Zack is still taking it on faith that Cloud could recover and live up to the whole "Living Legacy" thing. With no way of knowing if it would really happen, or if Cloud would just kind of lay back down next to him and die of exposure/starvation/dehydration. I liked it when Zack brought it up at the end of ACC, and Cloud cuts him off "I know, I'm your living legacy." It was like, such a validation for the poor guy to hear that, Cloud remembers what I did for him.

As for the bit with Zack's spirit... that also speaks of Angeal's strength to me honestly, though in a different capacity. It shows Angeal's white feathers, and his hand reaching out to Zack as he moves on from his dead body. If this was not just some dying hallucination of Zack's (which I considered possible since it's totally unlike any other journey to the lifestream we've seen, especially considering he seems to head for the sky for some odd reason) then Angeal has been holding onto himself, not dissolving into the swell of consciousness around him, for more than four years. Since he's not a Cetra, and he didn't focus his whole being into hatred like Sephiroth did in order to accomplish this same thing, then he must've had some impressive mental skills.

 

[Ravensilver]

Hi *waves*

Jumping in a little late on the discussion...

Having watched the cutscenes over and over again, and having played the game, I believe that Angeal was just as strong as the other two.

Look at Angeal's stance in the flashback scene where the three friends fight in the VR room. He's relaxed. He's looking forward to this. He uses a ShinRa issue common sword to fight against two superb fighters! So he must feel very confident in his abilities to hold his own, not using either materia or his own sword, against his two friends. Though, if you watch the cutscene second by second, as I have (*coughobsessedcough*), then you can see him using *just* a touch of limit break at the beginning of his solo attack on Sephiroth.

And he has no qualms at all to go between Genesis and Sephiroth when the fight gets out of hand. So he knows he can easily handle the situation. It's just not in his nature to go all out and flashy like Genesis, or totally focussed and competitive as Sephiroth. Angeal is centered in his own strength and abilities, he doesn't feel the need to show them.

Turning himself into Angeal Penance is the only way that he can get Zack to fight him. It's Angeal's honorable way out of a situation that, to him, has become intolerable. I am quite sure that if Angeal had really wanted to, he'd mopped the floor with Zack.

But then again (see my icon), I'm a bit biased.

 

[daviddwillson]

Well I think its reasonable to say he is at least on the level of Genesis considering Genesis was the failure and Angeal was the more successful product of Project Gillian

I think the only difference in their Project-related abilities is that Angeal can merge with clones as well as make them, while Geni can only make them. It's not really hinted at that being Project SOLDIERs gave them more strength than the average SOLDIER, like it is with Sephiroth.

But I've been wrong before.

 

[Octo]

Just watched the two versions on Youtube to remind myself. The FFVII version was far bleaker and better...even though the characters were made of fucking lego.

Also, at the risk of sounding unpopular, am I the only one who thinks Zack looks like a fucking retard when Angeals feathers and the light and all that crap start happening? He looks like hes honked on a crack pipe or something.

And the song sucked. Don't the japanese have a word for 'why'? because they should have said that instead. Wouldn't have made it a good song but it would have sucked 0.01% less.

God.....I am angry today!


EDIT: And another thing! Having Cloud talk to Zack makes no sense, Cloud had been monged up for years and in Crisis Core he starts 'sobering up' just before Zacks death, and then makes his way to Midgar. Then we're expected to believe he got monged up again so when Tifa finds him hes spaced out...and also forgets alllll about Zack his buddy who died face down in the mud so he could enjoy his coffee in 7th Heaven!

Yet again another retcon.

 

[ForceStealer]

Also, at the risk of sounding unpopular, am I the only one who thinks Zack looks like a fucking retard when Angeals feathers and the light and all that crap start happening? He looks like hes honked on a crack pipe or something.

lol, you clearly haven't been here long enough yet. You'll be far more unpopular for liking things around here.

And the song sucked. Don't the japanese have a word for 'why'? because they should have said that instead.

Don't listen to a lot of Japanese music do ya?

 

[Octo]

Well I wouldn't say alot. But I've got my fair share of cheesy anime soundtracks, I know they have a habit of chucking in the odd english word. I think its the way she sings it though, it just reeks of insincerity:

Why-hy...blah blah blah blah Zack is deeaad
Why-hy now he knows how those Wutai guys felt
Why - hy ...protect my balls...

That was it right?

 

[ForceStealer]

In and of itself, I don't mind the song. I actually like Ayaka because of how deep her voice can be, which you never freaking hear in jpop. It's always that incredibly shrill single note.

I actually like her Clap and Love song. Mostly because she says "crap and rove" It's catchy.

 

[Mariketsu]

I have to agree with those who said so, I believe as well, Angeal was just as strong, at least. Also, I kind of feel like he had this "big brother" thing with both Genesis and Sephiroth, and, imo, tho Ange and Gene were both childhood friends, I felt Sephiroth was closer to Angeal other than Genesis. This may sound weird, but something about the way Sephy's expressions are when talking to Angeal makes me feel as is he sees him like an older brother figure or mentor. Personally, I feel it (arguably) may mirror Cloud's friendship with Zack in some ways. Genesis, however, seemed to have had more of a "sibling" rivalry relationship with Seph. That's just me tho, but overall, I do think Angeal was roughly just as strong.

~ Raz

 

[Mitch Connor]

Why - hy ...protect my balls...

LETS FIGHTING LOOOVE!!

 

[Octo]

Now you have to admit that would be a perfect swansong for Zack.

 

[AerithLives]

I didnt like either of them anyway as characters. I only liked Sephiroth.