How would you re-write AC/C?

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree that oil shouldn't be part of the story. If it *were* to be included, however, (and it IS) it should be treated as the same level of threat as its allegorical cousin (mako) or else there would be no point for the cautionary tale of FFVII's energy crisis in the first place.

I see no harm in raising the question of the long-term effects since they did bring fossil fuel-reliance into the situation, but it seriously would be silly to make it as equally dangerous a threat as mako.

Fossil fuels are not literally killing our planet like mako. They may kill us, but our planet would go on without us, as would plants and animals inhabiting it. In FFVII's cosmology, mako production literally kills the planet itself, and ultimately everything living on it. To make oil do the same thing when it won't even do that here lacks the ring of truth to make it anything but a cringeworthy eyeroll fest.

That's not to say that preserving human life shouldn't be a concern in this fictional setting or in real life. To the contrary, that should be our primary concern in my opinion. All this "save the planet" crap in real life rings hollow to me, because, again, fossil fuels aren't endangering Earth; just us.

Me? I could let this planet burn in the rear view mirror if it meant our species' future could be secured among the stars. But again, the species is my priority. We all have to pick one, and I will probably always place our species before anything else on Earth -- including Earth.

Y'know, I don't think Mako was actually an allegory for fossil fuels. They are Mako reactors, not Mako refineries, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Exposure causes mutations, in wildlife, and people. It was originally produced for military purposes, and can create super destructive weapons. Giant monsters attacking due to nuclear weapons is a trope, and it's a Japanese game, the country that has most borne the brunt of nuclear weapons.

Insightful observation. Thank you for it. Perhaps the allegory is a combo of fossil fuels and nuclear energy. Just an overall question of where we're headed.

Rewrites: Geostigma really is the Planet trying to purge the world of threats. Kadaj is the leader of a faction of a growing group of people of the view 'What has the Planet ever done for us? Its solution was unleashing a bunch of giant monsters that killed lots of people but did absolutely nothing to eliminate the real threat, we saved it's life and now it's still trying to kill us!' Sephiroth is appearing to him the same way Aerith is to Cloud until the endgame, pushing a 'Screw this planet! Let's find a new home! viewpoint. Aerith convinces or threatens the planet into rescinding Geostigma, while Cloud and the rest deal with Sephiroth.

I like this idea a lot. Wishing for that very thing ultimately inspired my premise for the "FFVII: For All Gaia’s Children" project that Shademp and I worked on.

Advent Children raised the question of "What if the planet had judged us as bad?" but didn't explore its potential, abandoning it for "jk it was all Seph." One of the main things I wanted to do with that story we wrote was ask "What if the planet really had ruled against us?"

Especially after Before Crisis introduced the concept of Zirconiade and Crisis Core introduced Minerva, it seemed like this was a question begging for exploration. That, in my opinion, was the biggest missed opportunity of the Compilation.

 

[Tennyo]

To be honest, is it possible that they just don't know how bad it is? Wasn't oil something that was new to them then ditched when mako was discovered? They'll probably flock to it first thinking it will save them, only to face the true horror somewhere down the line that it isn't safe at all.

I see it being their first choice, but maybe not one that would last long. Once they did more research they might be able to think of new forms of energy.

 

[ForceStealer]

Fossil fuels are not literally killing our planet like mako. They may kill us, but our planet would go on without us, as would plants and animals inhabiting it. In FFVII's cosmology, mako production literally kills the planet itself, and ultimately everything living on it. To make oil do the same thing when it won't even do that here lacks the ring of truth to make it anything but a cringeworthy eyeroll fest.

That's not to say that preserving human life shouldn't be a concern in this fictional setting or in real life. To the contrary, that should be our primary concern in my opinion. All this "save the planet" crap in real life rings hollow to me, because, again, fossil fuels aren't endangering Earth; just us.

Precisely. Everything about this post. It's like that Carlin standup that I love because all the idiots on youtube completely misunderstand it and see it as Carlin betraying the liberal cause that they worship him for. Earth is fine. We're fucked, but Earth's not going anywhere.

VII's message, while environmentalism is certainly part of it, always struck me much more as an allegory of capitalism and monopoly first, fossil fuels second.

 

[Ite]

Oh my god. Leaving conversation. I am very sad you feel that way, because I respect all of you. But thinking that the structural integrity of Earth is the only thing worth saving about it... My god.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Don't think anybody said that. It's obviously a place of limitless beauty -- but what is a beautiful thing without someone to appreciate that beauty? As useless as fine china that stays in the cabinet.

So, no, the Earth's capacity to sustain life for its inhabitants -- and our species most of all -- is not the only thing about it worth preserving. But it is the most important thing.

And if you disagree (as you are most welcome to), then I'm very sad you feel that way. =P

 

[Ite]

I'm a bit confused... partly because my brain is telling me that we are trying to say the same thing, but all I can hear are pro-Fossil Fuel and anti-renewable energy arguments and those make me unspeakably livid. I've had a few hours to cool my boots, and have borrowed a partner's computer to use fancy quotes and stuff.

Spoiler: Mako as Allegory

Tres and I are definitely in agreement on this matter.

...it may also be too much to pull oil into the spotlight to the same degree as the concept that was an allegory for oil (mako)...

...I still think there's something to be said for it being ill-fitting to retread the same story beats with the literal real-world topic that previously was explored via allegory.

However, Clement raises a good point against:

...Y'know, I don't think Mako was actually an allegory for fossil fuels. They are Mako reactors, not Mako refineries, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Exposure causes mutations, in wildlife, and people. It was originally produced for military purposes, and can create super destructive weapons. Giant monsters attacking due to nuclear weapons is a trope, and it's a Japanese game, the country that has most borne the brunt of nuclear weapons.

Bugenhagen says "When we die, our bodies return to the Planet" (and thus becomes food for other creatures and plants in the great Circle of Life, leaving behind only fossil) Bugenhagen then immediately asks "But what of our soul? Our spirit. It too returns to the Planet."

In the fictitious universe of FFVII, this can be taken as fact without much salt required. The Lifestream is more or less a passive story element, exhibiting as much will over the day-to-day goings on as evolution might affect our world. It is implied by Aeris's smiling face at the end of the game that the Lifestream's emergence was consciously directed by a ghost, and is probably the biggest leap of faith we have to make on the matter (and considering that moment is a a giant deus ex machina, and a Japanese-as-balls ending, I'm okay with that).

When thinking about the allegorical nature of mako and the Lifestream, then, we're looking at a passive recycling of planetary life. My mind immediately goes to fossil fuels, but the energy contained within atoms also works. So where does that leave us?

I think in either case, we are generally in agreement that mako is a fantastical unobtanium-type element that acts as a stand-in for modern energy that is destructive and dangerous. Mako has the radiation properties of nuclear energy, and its symbolic relation to the life of the planet is reminiscent of fossil fuels. I am a Canadian, where nuclear power is not widely embraced, but we struggle with ecosystem-destroying pipelines, tar sands, and a depletion of our stunning natural world. A basic google for "oil harmful" comes up with this headline that could easily be an early AVALANCHE missive.

When I see mako, my thoughts immediately turn to the oil industry. It is natural for me to view the art of my time through my own political lens, and for the sake of my further arguments, I will treat mako as allegory for oil - with respect to the possibility that the literature can be interpreted in multiple ways.

Spoiler: Oil's Real World Danger

This is probably what has steamed me up the most, and I will try to approach my responses with a degree of temperance. I'll be largely addressing TresDias and ForceStealer in this section.

And oil is not an equal threat. Using all the Lifestream, we're shown, literally causes the planet to crumble. Overusing oil will make it less hospitable after awhile.

"Less" hospitable? Anthropogenic Global Climate Change (AGCC) is Scientifically agreed upon as the greatest threat facing our planet. The IPCC (a Nobel Peace Prize winning organization) is my go-to for evidence, projections, and reports, but there is also of course Wikipedia.

Fossil fuels couldn't kill the planet, though. At least not in the literal sense that mako would -- i.e. killing the inhabitable sphere itself, and leaving it to crumble to dust in space.

At most, overuse might render the sphere uninhabitable for humans after many generations, but there would probably still be flora and fauna that would live on even then, as would be the case on our world. Even if they were all undersea lifeforms, the planet itself would be able to prosper.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this. If life on our planet were reduced to resilient underwater forms such as stromatolites and tardigrades... that's okay with you? You would prefer such a fate to short-term economic turmoil in the search for clean energy?

Fossil fuels are not literally killing our planet like mako. They may kill us, but our planet would go on without us, as would plants and animals inhabiting it.

How? How are animals and plants so much more resilient than the creatures with advanced medicine? If it is within the realm of possibility to you that fossil fuel emissions will make the planet uninhabitable for humans, why are humans the only ones affected? Logically speaking, we'll be among the last to go, because we'll develop bunkers and produce medicine (until those run out, but that's a few generations away).

In FFVII's cosmology, mako production literally kills the planet itself, and ultimately everything living on it. To make oil do the same thing when it won't even do that here lacks the ring of truth to make it anything but a cringeworthy eyeroll fest.

Allegory, dude. I think the image of a Planet without Lifestream crumbling and falling down through space is a stupid image, and one of the most cringeworthy eyeroll fests of the entire Compilation (YES! EVEN MORE THAN LOZ). Why, then, are other uninhabitable Planets still held together? The image is supposed to be a stark symbol of ultimate death. Something even children can understand. Pretty sure that planets are held together by gravity, not Lifestream.

That's not to say that preserving human life shouldn't be a concern in this fictional setting or in real life. To the contrary, that should be our primary concern in my opinion. All this "save the planet" crap in real life rings hollow to me, because, again, fossil fuels aren't endangering Earth; just us.

Me? I could let this planet burn in the rear view mirror if it meant our species' future could be secured among the stars. But again, the species is my priority. We all have to pick one, and I will probably always place our species before anything else on Earth -- including Earth.

Now I'm even more confused. You are kind of sounding like Shinra.

Spoiler: Oil in the FFVII Universe

...I don't see how Advent Children praised it anyway. Barret mentioned it once. On the Way to Smile had Cid working on an oil-powered airship, but by Dirge of Cerberus the Shera's running on the ol' "mysterious ancient power source" trope, which is kinda what you're looking for, right?

From the English script
Barret: Whaddup, fool! It's Barret. I am the man! Oil, Cloud! I just found the biggest damn oil field you've ever seen!

I saw the Japanese version, where the voicemail was him screaming "OY-ULL FEEEELDO! OY-ULL FEELDO!" And my heart died.

Regarding the struggle to find new energy sources, I would agree with what the Engineer mentioned. Although, if I think carefully, given that the population of the entire Planet seems fairly small (or at least, much less densely populated than Earth), you could probably meet the worldwide energy demand by making huge hydro-electric dams on the crater caused by the Weapons' awakening. Hydro-electricity is almost as old as coal power generation, it doesn't really take hugely advanced technology to do that beyond a large-scale construction.

A fantastic idea!

As Obsidian/Engineer said though, there is no plausible reason for them to go for anything other than oil. People are usually at the Compilation's throat for doing implausible things for the sake of some other purpose - coolness, angst, whatever. How is that different from being implausible for the sake of a message?

Why would they go *to* oil? The infrastructure doesn't exist (because mako is oil).

One of the major pro-oil arguments is a very lazy one. The infrastructure is already there. We can't abandon everything we've worked towards just because it's sucking the life out of the planet and filling the sky with ash! Without that infrastructure, the WRO has a clean slate from which to spring forward.

It's been suggested that they could make a mistake and choose oil without knowing the consequences. I suppose that is an interesting tragedy, but why do you wanna get tragedy all over something that took 80+ hours to set right?

Something powerful happens at the end of the OG. A schism occurs at the moment of apocalypse - the black city dies, and there is a chance to begin anew. Five hundred years later, all that is left of that city is a beautiful wilderness -- implicitly, humanity took that chance and became one with their planet. The very symbolic and heavy-handed end to a very symbolic and heavy-handed story.

 

[Octo]

I agree with Ite. Though the people in FFVII may have no idea about oil, we do so it's knda jarring for Barret to be so happy. Like he could have easily said " oh we found some oil, it's not ideal but in the meantime bla bla bla"

I think thats symptomatic of how AC wasnt really about everyone -it was about Cloud. I just feel like they didn't give it due consideration.

 

[Ghost X]

The lifestream is a cycle, so if a major disruption to it were to occur, like climate change has on Earth (acidifying oceans, and rapidly changing ecosystems across the globe to fast for life to adapt, etc), I'd think it would be damaging to the lifestream itself. I doubt the writers really fleshed out / thought of these consequences. If we were to justify it for the sake of a coherent story, I think Engineer raised the point that this may not be how FFVII's world works. Perhaps greenhouses gases aren't a thing, etc.

Sure, we can say "view this in a vacuum", but we can also critique FFVII's makers' choices given the current climate of affairs in the real world. Just as they can continue with the fossil fuels plot line anyway, because liberty, etc . They're not imposing on anyone, and vice versa. Only then would we have issues

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Except the whole oil thing is mainly taken out of OOTWTAS: Case of Barret, not ACC...

 

[ForceStealer]

"Less" hospitable? Anthropogenic Global Climate Change (AGCC) is Scientifically agreed upon as the greatest threat facing our planet. The IPCC (a Nobel Peace Prize winning organization) is my go-to for evidence, projections, and reports, but there is also of course Wikipedia.

"The greatest threat facing our planet [for us and creatures like us]." The planet is not a sentient thing, not like FF7's Planet.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this. If life on our planet were reduced to resilient underwater forms such as stromatolites and tardigrades... that's okay with you? You would prefer such a fate to short-term economic turmoil in the search for clean energy?

Who said that? I said there's a fundamental difference between literally killing the planet and making it untenable for human (and animals biologically similar to humans) life. What I'm "okay with" has nothing to do with the point.

How? How are animals and plants so much more resilient than the creatures with advanced medicine? If it is within the realm of possibility to you that fossil fuel emissions will make the planet uninhabitable for humans, why are humans the only ones affected? Logically speaking, we'll be among the last to go, because we'll develop bunkers and produce medicine (until those run out, but that's a few generations away).

We're not the only ones affected, but nor is EVERYTHING affected. I'm just saying that wiping out life as we know it is not the same thing as wiping out all life.

As it relates to FF7, it makes sense that they would default back to another power source that works, at least for awhile. Because you CAN use them for a little while.

Now I'm even more confused. You are kind of sounding like Shinra.

oh please

As for infrastructure, however mako worked, it couldn't have been that different, because all their cars and helicopters and stuff sure seemed to work similarly to ours. And yes, I know, because mako IS oil. But the original game already acknowledged the existence of conventional fossil fuels with the whole Corel-was-a-mining town. Coal was clearly viewed as inferior to mako given that Barret attributed it to Myrna's suffering. Exactly what kind of suffering I'm not positive, maybe simply the hard work involved, but maybe it was the pollution. But Barret regretted abandoning coal because of what accepting mako from Shinra meant. So it's not weird that he would go back to what he knew after mako was no more.

As for the integrity of the message or whatever, sure, I don't have any big disagreements. I was just saying in it's own narrative universe it was not a strange or implausible development. How you've managed to take that in a very dramatic direction that amounts to pro-fossil fuel and anti-renewable energy arguments is beyond me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm a bit confused... partly because my brain is telling me that we are trying to say the same thing, but all I can hear are pro-Fossil Fuel and anti-renewable energy arguments and those make me unspeakably livid.

I want to begin this response by saying I have absolutely zero idea where you're getting any of that. Like, at all. So, to me this conversation has gotten off-the-wall bonkers.

Just needed to throw that out there.

Oil's Real World Danger

This is probably what has steamed me up the most, and I will try to approach my responses with a degree of temperance. I'll be largely addressing TresDias and ForceStealer in this section.

...

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this. If life on our planet were reduced to resilient underwater forms such as stromatolites and tardigrades... that's okay with you? You would prefer such a fate to short-term economic turmoil in the search for clean energy?

I have no idea what the tiniest flame in hell the economy has to do with this conversation, but moving on quick as I may from that tangent, no, underwater flora and fauna being all that survives is the last thing I'd ever be okay with. I made that abundantly clear numerous times through the most blatant diction English can offer:

-"That's not to say that preserving human life shouldn't be a concern in this fictional setting or in real life. To the contrary, that should be our primary concern in my opinion."

-"Me? I could let this planet burn in the rear view mirror if it meant our species' future could be secured among the stars. But again, the species is my priority. We all have to pick one, and I will probably always place our species before anything else on Earth -- including Earth."

-"... but what is a beautiful thing without someone to appreciate that beauty? As useless as fine china that stays in the cabinet.

So, no, the Earth's capacity to sustain life for its inhabitants -- and our species most of all -- is not the only thing about it worth preserving. But it is the most important thing."

How? How are animals and plants so much more resilient than the creatures with advanced medicine?

How are animals and plants able to live at the bottom of the ocean now? That's how they evolved. For a lot of them, it has something to do with heat vents/geysers in the ocean floor. If everything died on the surface, stuff down there would keep on keeping on.

Allegory, dude. I think the image of a Planet without Lifestream crumbling and falling down through space is a stupid image, and one of the most cringeworthy eyeroll fests of the entire Compilation (YES! EVEN MORE THAN LOZ).

Well, that image didn't originate with the Compilation. It comes from Bugenhagen's demonstration of planet life mechanics in the original game. Dirge of Cerberus just stuck to it.

I know you think you've cooled off (for whatever reason that was necessary), but between your double hate for fossil fuels and the Compilation, I feel like you've gone way off the reservation in this discussion, dude.

Why, then, are other uninhabitable Planets still held together?

Who says they are? We've never seen any except for Terra in FFIX -- and that was a world where the inhabitants went to extensive techno-magical effort to artificially keep their planet (which was no longer anchored in space either) alive by having it traverse the cosmos subsuming (wait for it) other Lifestreams.

The meteor Jenova arrived on very well may have even been a piece of whatever planet whose Lifestream she devoured before coming to FFVII's world. We can't confirm that, obviously, but it fits.

Now, on the off chance you're referring to other worlds in FFVII's solar system, I'd like to simply point out we know nothing about them -- but we do know Bugenhagen outright said "spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets."

The very next thing he then says is "What happens if that energy were to disappear?" -- and the planet in the demonstration promptly crumbled to dust. A demonstration in his lab. About which he says "All the workings of space are entered into this 3D Holographic System."

I really don't know how you can be challenging such straightforward explanations about the cosmology that they went into great detail to show differs from ours.

The image is supposed to be a stark symbol of ultimate death. Something even children can understand. Pretty sure that planets are held together by gravity, not Lifestream.

Which appears not to exist without Lifestream/spirit energy in FFVII's cosmology.

I'll meet your pretty sure-ness with equal pretty sure-ness that Earth's core is a spinning, solid metallic ball surrounded by a spherical sea of molten metal -- but as far as Final Fantasy is concerned, Earth's core is a spherical mass of spirit energy, as seen in The Spirits Within.

FFVII's world, being another Lifestream planet, is much the same.

While we're on that topic, I also have doubts that anyone could venture to the center of our planet without being killed by the intense heat, to say nothing of the gravity. Yet in both The Spirits Within and FFVII, people travel to the center of Earth and another planet operating under the same metaphysics without suffering those effects.

Now I'm even more confused. You are kind of sounding like Shinra.

Really? If putting humanity's well-being first had figured into their business model, most -- perhaps all -- of the problems of the entire FFVII series would never have occurred.




Also, everything Force said. Absolutely all of it.

 

[Ite]

Fair points all of them. My passions do make an arse of me.

I am still a little confused as to your position, Tres, as in one breath you say that the last thing you'd be okay with is mass extinction, and in the next you say you would burn the world to keep humanity afloat. But it's a dilemma we all share (this being posted on my iPhone, the irony is not lost on me.)

In trying to put an end to my egregious derailing of the thread topic, I would have liked to see a little more thought put into how the AVALANCHE revolution and the philisophical implications of the Weapon Raids affected the WRO's options. As has been said in the thread already, wind power has a precedent, and there are in-world solutions (like Mayo Master's suggestion) but I would be very happy with a movie about talking heads and I realize that's not what most movie-goers are looking for, especially in a sequel to an adventure RPG.

But... Perhaps mentioning the WRO? They aren't even brought up in ACC, not even as a throwaway line.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

For the record, I do think you have suggestions that would have been promising. Sadly, more talking heads would have probably turned AC's reception into something even harsher than The Spirits Within got.

Regarding the WRO, I do seem to recall that Kadaj mows over a sign on the highway to Midgar that read something about the WRO closing the road.

 

[Ite]

Regarding the WRO, I do seem to recall that Kadaj mows over a sign on the highway to Midgar that read something about the WRO closing the road.

I see... I feel like it needs more time than that. Less, perhaps, then the Senate has in the Phantom Menace.

As it is, the WRO-exposition:Loz-crying ratio is dissatisfying to me.

 

[Starling]

I just want to remind everyone that ecosystems and biomes show how interconnected the world can be. Mess with one species and or the climate and it affects a whole lot of other things. Even if technology could allow survival when everything else has been screwed over, we'd all be screwed the second that technology started failing. It really is in everyone's best interest to take care of the environment and to keep from assuming we'd somehow find a way to manage if we don't.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Interstellar" told me we will, though.

 

[hian]

EDIT : I'm an idiot, I used prologue repeatedly although the word I was supposed to use was epilogue. Guess that's what you get for writing after midnight...

I'd rewrite the entire thing. No really. I'd start entirely from scratch. I'd have Midgar be abandoned, and have everyone move to the villages.
I'd have the original cast of FF7 split up living in their original towns, or alternatively all living in a Kalm, which would have been expanded due to the influx of refuges from Midgar.

I wouldn't have brought Sephiroth or any grey-haired people into the mix, and I wouldn't have spent time having Cloud mope over something he seemed to have processed pretty well by the end of the original game. And I sure wouldn't have brought geostigma into it either.

Probably, I'd have focused on the individual characters and their struggles to make things work in the new world without Shinra, and then perhaps (and I stress "perhaps" here) I'd tie it neatly together with an overarching plot based on some greater threat posed by, oh I don't know, remnants of nasty Hojo/Shinra experiments running rampant after having escaped from the darker corners of the broken Shinra building?

It's a difficult question for me to answer, because I never felt FFVII needed or benefited from sequels to begin with.
Being what it was, I think the only thing you can say certain fans might have benefited from is an epilogue, like 15 minutes or so of short clips and exposition that explain what happened the months following the fall of the meteor.

I just don't think FFVII lends itself all that well to sequel writing unless you're just loosely using the world and setting for a completely original story I.E if you insist on making it about the same characters, essentially doing what they did all over again, that's not useful.
I mean, how many times should Cloud and Co have to save the world, and how many world-threatening scenarios does it really feel sensible to have washing over the same cast over and over again?

Personally, I think once is more than enough. And so I think a good FFVII sequel would be a FFVII sequel that takes part in the same world, but is about a completely different cast facing a completely different threat, or it would have to be a more mundane, epilogue/slice-of-life thing just exploring the generalities of what happened to the world and the cast after the original.

AC essentially does what I consider unforgivable in a sequel - it does neither, and instead pretends to take one step forward, but then essentially just lands you at a place much the same as the end of the product it followed.
Little has been added in terms of characterization, or story - just an exercise in grabbing your own tail, and putting a new coat of paint on an old car for the sake of satisfying the most basic of nostalgia for the fans of the original - and it does so through extremely contrived story machinations in order for it to work.

That's not how you write good sequels.

 

[Octo]

I didn't really feel like I wanted a sequel either. I mean, of course I wanted to know how the characters got on after meteor, but I figured they'd be ok.

It was only went I went on gamefaqs (I think) and saw people going on about how the 500 years later thing proves that everyone got killed by the Lifestream. That bothered me.

Anyway, I don't know what I exactly had in mind for the characters - but it was probably something akin to 'happy ever after' and AC/ACC just was not satisfying in any way shape or form. Like I was a huge Tseng fangirl and I was really happy that he turned out not to be dead, but then it was like...why did they even bother if they're not going to really do anything with that character?

I can't even call it fanservice, except maybe for Sephiroth and Cloud fans who only like him in angsty fanfiction mode.

 

[Tashasaurous]

I'd rewrite the entire thing. No really. I'd start entirely from scratch. I'd have Midgar be abandoned, and have everyone move to the villages.
I'd have the original cast of FF7 split up living in their original towns, or alternatively all living in a Kalm, which would have been expanded due to the influx of refuges from Midgar.

I wouldn't have brought Sephiroth or any grey-haired people into the mix, and I wouldn't have spent time having Cloud mope over something he seemed to have processed pretty well by the end of the original game. And I sure wouldn't have brought geostigma into it either.

Probably, I'd have focused on the individual characters and their struggles to make things work in the new world without Shinra, and then perhaps (and I stress "perhaps" here) I'd tie it neatly together with an overarching plot based on some greater threat posed by, oh I don't know, remnants of nasty Hojo/Shinra experiments running rampant after having escaped from the darker corners of the broken Shinra building?

It's a difficult question for me to answer, because I never felt FFVII needed or benefited from sequels to begin with.
Being what it was, I think the only thing you can say certain fans might have benefited from is a prologue, like 15 minutes or so of short clips and exposition that explain what happened the months following the fall of the meteor.

I just don't think FFVII lends itself all that well to sequel writing unless you're just loosely using the world and setting for a completely original story I.E if you insist on making it about the same characters, essentially doing what they did all over again, that's not useful.
I mean, how many times should Cloud and Co have to save the world, and how many world-threatening scenarios does it really feel sensible to have washing over the same cast over and over again?

Personally, I think once is more than enough. And so I think a good FFVII sequel would be a FFVII sequel that takes part in the same world, but is about a completely different cast facing a completely different threat, or it would have to be a more mundane, prologue/slice-of-life thing just exploring the generalities of what happened to the world and the cast after the original.

AC essentially does what I consider unforgivable in a sequel - it does neither, and instead pretends to take one step forward, but then essentially just lands you at a place much the same as the end of the product it followed.
Little has been added in terms of characterization, or story - just an exercise in grabbing your own tail, and putting a new coat of paint on an old car for the sake of satisfying the most basic of nostalgia for the fans of the original - and it does so through extremely contrived story machinations in order for it to work.

That's not how you write good sequels.

I didn't really feel like I wanted a sequel either. I mean, of course I wanted to know how the characters got on after meteor, but I figured they'd be ok.

It was only went I went on gamefaqs (I think) and saw people going on about how the 500 years later thing proves that everyone got killed by the Lifestream. That bothered me.

Anyway, I don't know what I exactly had in mind for the characters - but it was probably something akin to 'happy ever after' and AC/ACC just was not satisfying in any way shape or form. Like I was a huge Tseng fangirl and I was really happy that he turned out not to be dead, but then it was like...why did they even bother if they're not going to really do anything with that character?

I can't even call it fanservice, except maybe for Sephiroth and Cloud fans who only like him in angsty fanfiction mode.

Would this then make me the only one who actually felt that FFVII needed a sequel?

I mean, there's a lot of potiental for Cloud and them to experience more. It's like with real life-anything could happen.

I love the film in both versions, but I guess I'm one of those types who likes to have favorites to continue going on more adventures.

I mean, say if you're a Sailor Moon anime fan(original anime), would you say the same thing about them not needing sequels? A lotta companies like to expand their characters' adventures until they decide the right idea to end them.

Though, I have to admit, Square Enix made a bad move in not continuing the Compilation in the you-know-what scene after Dirge of Cerberus. Wish they would just finish it off instead of just leaving it to drive people crazy.

They finished Lightning's story, and that doesn't need anymore. Type-0 ended in sense(even if it was sad, but it still made sense and it did explain the last details that doesn't need to continue), and that new secret ending in the HD version was more fanfiction than anything else.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lightning's story should have been over at the end of FFXIII. That game suffered worse because of expansions than even the worst additions to FFVII caused it to suffer.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^Well... FFXIII did a way worse job at explaining what was going on the FFVII did. I mean, the entire plot begins and ends because of multiple Dues Ex Machina (no explanation for why Fang and Vanille come out of crystal stasis, no explanation for why Lighningh and Co. come out of crystal stasis). So FFXIII-2 and LR:FFXIII serve to explain and expound what the Dues Ex Machina were.

Unlike FFVII where everything is nicely self-contained in one game, FFXIII begs for more explanation for what is going on in the setting. For me, FFVII and FFXIII have squeals for very different reasons. FFVII had squeals because everyone (fans and devs alike) wanted to see what happened to Cloud and Co. after the world was saved. FFXIII has sequels because the first game was missing enough context to make more games out of it.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Lightning's story should have been over at the end of FFXIII. That game suffered worse because of expansions than even the worst additions to FFVII caused it to suffer.

Yeah, well, Lightning's story was crap, anyway. In fact, everything in FFXIII was crap. Snow irritated me to no end. The story was cringe-worthy. The only reason why it was a Final Fantasy title was probably because of Chocobos.

If it were for me, I would've made Type-0 the true Final Fantasy XIII since it held more of the Final Fantasy feeling to it.

But still, I was extremtely happy that they had decided to continue the FFVII story with the Compilation, and while, yes, they could've done better, but hey, at least these titles are still better than the FFXIII trilogy. Right?

 

[Clement Rage]

^Well... FFXIII did a way worse job at explaining what was going on the FFVII did. I mean, the entire plot begins and ends because of multiple Dues Ex Machina (no explanation for why Fang and Vanille come out of crystal stasis, no explanation for why Lighningh and Co. come out of crystal stasis). So FFXIII-2 and LR:FFXIII serve to explain and expound what the Dues Ex Machina were.

Unlike FFVII where everything is nicely self-contained in one game, FFXIII begs for more explanation for what is going on in the setting. For me, FFVII and FFXIII have squeals for very different reasons. FFVII had squeals because everyone (fans and devs alike) wanted to see what happened to Cloud and Co. after the world was saved. FFXIII has sequels because the first game was missing enough context to make more games out of it.

There are a couple of easy leaps that can be made to cover those plot holes, though. Fang and Vanille come out of crystal stasis because Anima woke up and told them to. There's a voice over that implies Fang and Vanille had something to do with them returning from crystal stasis, the wrong conclusion, but it's there and standalone.

FF13 had room for sequels, but not the ones that actually were made (I'm sorry, Square, the games were fine, but I thought a different direction than 'Suddenly, Lightning was sucked into a vortex' would have been better.)

FF7 didn't need a sequel, but it wasn't a Casablanca style story where a sequel damaged the existing plot.

 

[hian]

Would this then make me the only one who actually felt that FFVII needed a sequel?

I mean, there's a lot of potiental for Cloud and them to experience more. It's like with real life-anything could happen.

As I said in my post - and I though I was pretty clear about - it's not that FFVII got a sequel that is the issue, but that it got a really bad one.

I don't think it needed on to begin with, so to create one which is bad is to add insult to injury.

Sure, there is an infinite potential for Cloud and Co to experience new things. The problem with AC is that it essentially has Cloud and Co re-experience more or less the exact same thing they experienced in FFVII in a new wrapping without anything of substance added to the original narrative.
Characters are not fleshed out or given new meaningful story arcs, and very little time is spent on actually going into story.
The majority of the film is anime/Matrix-esque action-porn and the plot is essentially just the flimsiest excuse of a plot they could come up with to justify the non-stop action.

Furthermore, as I said before - there is only so many times you can involve the same cast in "new threats to the world" before it gets into the territory of diminishing returns and absurdity.

I love the film in both versions, but I guess I'm one of those types who likes to have favorites to continue going on more adventures.

Sometimes I like it and other times I don't. It depends on the story being told, the format, and the writing.
The problem with Shonen anime, and Japanese action drama for children/young adults, whether we're talking Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Ultraman, or Kamen Rider, is that these franchises are designed on purpose to be able to last virtually forever for the primary purpose of selling themselves and the merchandise that follows.
They are almost always trite, simplistic and ridiculous - filled with plot-holes and narrative blunders.

They almost always fall into a real bucket of diminishing returns as the years go by too, because when the premise of your story is "Hero faces evil that is stronger than him/her, goes out to train, comes back and kicks ass" you can only do so so many arcs before the hero ends up being strong enough to destroy planets, at which point everything just becomes a repetitive exercise of forcefully going through the same basic motions over and over again.

That's not a format I wish something I like (FFVII) to fall into although in a sense, that's exactly what it did.

I mean, say if you're a Sailor Moon anime fan(original anime), would you say the same thing about them not needing sequels? A lotta companies like to expand their characters' adventures until they decide the right idea to end them.

A lot of companies like to milk impressionable kids for cash. This has nothing to do with writing, or a movie/book/game "needing a sequel".

Sailor Moon, like Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece and everything else under the sun that has more than 100 episodes, would probably be much better if they'd just planned the plot out properly in advance and limited the telling of it to a couple of seasons at most.
Instead they keep dragging them out, like a brain-dead person on life-support, for the sake of earning more money out of kids (or rather their parents) and people with no taste or standards.

Though, I have to admit, Square Enix made a bad move in not continuing the Compilation in the you-know-what scene after Dirge of Cerberus. Wish they would just finish it off instead of just leaving it to drive people crazy.

No, the bad move they did was adding that character to begin with.
Not writing such a bad plot with such a bad character would be much easier thing to do than writing it, and then having to write even more afterwards to justify the ending of that mess.

If you absolutely have to make sequels to FFVII there are so many more interesting things you could have done.

One thing I've thought of occasionally is the potential for writing a story about Cloud's child/children.
After all, if we pretend for a moment that the compilation never happened, after having defeated Jenova, the only part of Jenova left as far as we know is in Cloud.

Cloud would be the last carrier of Jenova cells, and who knows how that would effect Cloud having children.
Imagine a weak fetus with Jenova cells mutating within it.
You could make something interesting with that.
Having Tifa bear Cloud's child/children and having one of them virtually become the next villain threatening the world as a sort of spiritual successor to Sephiroth, growing up with freakish strength and Jenova's voice echoing in the back of his or her head telling him or her to stir shit up could be a really interesting story.

That could be a decent sequel - one that frees the writers from the limitations of the old plot by putting it a good amount of time after the original, while being able to use the same good old setting, and also not serving as an incentive to shoehorn characters like Sephiroth or Rufus into places they're neither needed nor logical to have.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^Cloud's not the only one with Jenova cells or mako enhancements though. Anyone who ever got to SOLDIER 3rd will have them too (just not as much as Cloud does).

Which would still make for an interesting sequel... what are you going to do if those enhancements turn out to be hereditary and there's now a whole portion of the population with them who were just born with them? Especially seeing as the origin of those enhancements was Shin-Ra?