Ifalna: Did she escape with Gast from ShinRa, or meet him separately?

[JayM]

.............wait then...if Vincent's been in the coffin for 23 years...we know he attacked Hojo prior to Seph's birth, so Hojo just...stayed in Nibelheim experimenting on him for four years, or...

Is Sephiroth just incredibly demanding re: the world then? Was he sincerely expecting Gast to impart the truths of his existance when he was still in utero? I just...

Augh fuck this noise, my version makes more sense than theirs. Also WE KNOW Seph had no access to Gast's work so how the hell would he have any opinion of Gast if he hadn't met the man? I know I'm basing this entirely on the least reliable flashback in the game but he had to know him. The things he says do not make sense otherwise.

With how much attention Sephiroth gets in the Compilation you'd think they would possibly maybe stop fucking up his entire backstory, I mean, is that really too much to ask? I know he's just bondage gear and merchandise fodder for them, but some of us actually care. and I buy enough of their crap that they really should be catering to my wants by now.

Edit: ...couldn't he have been born in 1977, if we've got up to 30 years before? Which would make Vincent's timeline even more fucked I suppose but, uh. ...*shuts up and just takes pound of salt*

 

[Theozilla]

Just some random trivia info on Ifalna (from the Final Fantasy Wiki, which is usually pretty accurate) says that:

Ifalna is mentioned by name in Crisis Core. A scientist found within the Shinra Headquarters laments her death, and is discovered to be working against Shinra. He is then arrested by Kunsel.

Perhaps this gives credence to the "escaping with Gast from ShinRa" statement in the Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection?

 

[Roger]

I looked through the CC Complete Guide Keyword translations we have on the site here. They say that Gast left Shin-Ra in 1980 (27 years before FFVII), and that Hollander and Hojo competed for his position. Hollander initially had the title, but it was taken from him and given to Hojo after Project S was determined to be more successful than Project G.

We know from the official timelines that Sephiroth was born "25-30 years" before FFVII, so the latest he could have been born is 1982. Seemingly, the earliest he coudl have been born is 1980.

From this information we can conclude the following:
-Gast probably never met Sephiroth
-Sephiroth is 27, at the oldest
-Since Aerith was born in 1985, the two years Hojo waited either means that Gast met Ifalna in 1983 (maybe late 1982), or -- if we're to take seriously the notion that he escaped with Ifalna -- Hojo didn't locate them until then, but waited two additional years for them to produce Aerith


As for Vincent, according to the Ultimania Omega, he's been in the coffin for approximately 23 years.


Of course, given how terrible Square has proven themselves to be at plotting out the timeline otherwise, maybe we should take all of this with a pound of salt.

Ultimania gave Vincents age as 27 in appearance, FFVII gives his age as 57. Sephiroth was already conceived when Vincent was taken prisoner. Sephiroth can only be as young as 29-30, he can actually be older depending on how many years it took for Hojo to figure out how too make Vincent immortal but he can't be younger without retconning Vincents age outright.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ultimania gave Vincents age as 27 in appearance, FFVII gives his age as 57. Sephiroth was already conceived when Vincent was taken prisoner. Sephiroth can only be as young as 29-30, he can actually be older depending on how many years it took for Hojo to figure out how too make Vincent immortal but he can't be younger without retconning Vincents age outright.

I can't remember any sources that said he's chronologically 57. Which one was that?

The UO says it was approximately 23 years ago when he was shot. His 10th AU profile says he was born approximately 50 years ago (27 + approx. 23 years). It also says he spent "about 20 years" in the coffin.

I might have been wrong to guess that he spent approximately 23 years in the coffin since we don't know how long he spent as Hojo's experiment, and then as Lucrecia's. But I guess, based on the info we have, he might have been "dead" for as long as three years before he woke up and locked himself away.

Just some random trivia info on Ifalna (from the Final Fantasy Wiki, which is usually pretty accurate) says that:

Ifalna is mentioned by name in Crisis Core. A scientist found within the Shinra Headquarters laments her death, and is discovered to be working against Shinra. He is then arrested by Kunsel.

Perhaps this gives credence to the "escaping with Gast from ShinRa" statement in the Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection?

I don't think it necessarily does. Ifalna had been a research sample in the building for seven years, and had been dead for eight years by the time Crisis Core started.

I think he probably just knew her from her time as a sample.

 

[Roger]

I can't remember any sources that said he's chronologically 57. Which one was that?

Final Fantasy VII's manual. I dunno where mine is but I'm petty sure it says

"Vincent
Age: 57"

And seriously, think about it. When Sephiroth gets killed at the Mako reactor he's 21. When he first appears in Crisis Core 18-19 (and so is Angeal). When Zack leaves his hometown to be First Class SOLDIER just like Sephiroth, Sephiroth's 16. When Genesis leaves his hometown with the same motive, he was probably like 13. Does all this sound wrong to anyone else?

 

[Lex]

Mine says "Age:57" also, just to confirm that. UK PSX Black label.

 

[Roger]

Actually, I got my math all wrong there. ZACK'S 23 BY THE TIME FFVII STARTS! Zack is not as old as Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis. WTF were they thinking with UO?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You guys positive about the UK PS manual saying "57"? I have a copy of it that says "27." And my North American version says the same thing. Pretty sure every Japanese source has just said "27" also.

In any case, even if one source says that, the current intent is clear, I think.

 

[Theozilla]

Well Vincent is chronologically 57, but is physically 27, right? At least that is what the timeline says, I believe.

 

[Roger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vofVLqz8XQ&feature=related

Seriously. This scene takes place about 7 years before FFVII. These are not 17 year olds, nor was that the intent.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

At the oldest, Seph could have only been 23 there, which would have made the other two maybe a year older (they're supposed to be a little older, right?). I agree that it's a little weird that Zack is supposed to be the same age in the last chunk of Crisis Core.

I don't know what they were thinking when they came up with the "25-30 years ago" thing, but they've stood by it in multiple books since. Chalk this one up to another case of poor planning on their part.

I always thought it was a little absurd that Midgar would have become so rundown/full of scrap and shit in just 31 years as well. I don't think it's remotely feasible to have that kind of decay in such a short period.

Even with people firmly living in the "now," I would have expected at least double that amount of time to run such a city so firmly into the ground.

 

[Roger]

At the oldest, Seph could have only been 23 there, which would have made the other two maybe a year older (they're supposed to be a little older, right?).

A LITTL OLDER. but then I'm already rounding up. the timeline actually makes Sephiroth 16 years old in that scene. And again, there's no upper cap to Sephiroth's age other then those stupid books. Vincent looks 27, that doesn't mean he was taken captive when he was 27. For all we know Hojo needed to spend like 4 years of research before he knew how to make Vincent immortal. Making Vincent's captivity 4 years longer, Sephiroth 4 years older.

Hell, this guy could easily be as young as 20 years old if you ask me.

I agree that it's a little weird that Zack is supposed to be the same age in the last chunk of Crisis Core.

A LITTLE??

Look at Angeal. This timeline means he dies long before he could possibly reach 20 years old. Zack depicted in the second artwork is several years older then Angeal.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think I've ever actually seen that second artwork, Zack looks pretty awesome in it.

On topic, I have to wonder if this is poor planning or simply an unwillingness to have any characters breaching 30. Because it's not like sandwiching all these events closer together than they should be allows them to do something they wouldn't be able to otherwise...
I wonder if it's like Gundam Wing, where all the "canon" insists that the Gundam pilots are 15 years old and Zechs is 19. I'm sorry, that is bullshit. The pilots look and act morel like 19 and Zechs should be at least 30. Even 30 would be an insanely young age to achieve the rank of Colonel.
I dunno, just part of me wonders if it's a lack of planning - which is entirely possible - or intentional in that they're afraid the fangirls won't squee over anyone out of their 20s.

 

[Roger]

Not just Zechs, Une is 19 too and Treize is like 21, 23 was it?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I am pretty much 99 percent sure that Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal were about 25 by the time Crisis Core hit its climax and I never ever heard anything even logical contrary to that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A LITTL OLDER. but then I'm already rounding up. the timeline actually makes Sephiroth 16 years old in that scene.

I think there may be some confusion here. Vincent was shot 23 years before FFVII. That's a different timeframe from when Seph, Angel and Genesis werre born (25-30 years before).

The official timeline has it that Sephiroth was at least two years old when Vincent was shot. And, yeah, there's no way one would know that from playing the original game, where it seemed that Vincent's outburst was due to some complication from the birth.

The UO says he was angry with Hojo over Lucrecia disappearing (when she went off into exile). Of course, Dirge shows that she was still there when Hojo got shot, so it's completely unclear what Vincent was supposed to have been upset about there.

The timeline where these events are related is a complete clusterfuck of confusion.

I am pretty much 99 percent sure that Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal were about 25 by the time Crisis Core hit its climax and I never ever heard anything even logical contrary to that.

Yeah, if Gast left in 1980, and the original game happens in 2007, and Hollander had Gast's position for a little while before the results of the hybrid baby experiments could be gathered, that puts them closer to 25 than 30 at the end of Crisis Core/beginning of the original.

I wonder if it's like Gundam Wing, where all the "canon" insists that the Gundam pilots are 15 years old and Zechs is 19. I'm sorry, that is bullshit. The pilots look and act morel like 19 and Zechs should be at least 30. Even 30 would be an insanely young age to achieve the rank of Colonel.
I dunno, just part of me wonders if it's a lack of planning - which is entirely possible - or intentional in that they're afraid the fangirls won't squee over anyone out of their 20s.

I think it's some of both of those things, and also related to the worldview of war many manga writers had following WWII (older leaders ruin shit for everybody else, only the young can save us from ourselves, it's children who suffer the most in war, etc.).

 

[Roger]

Ok, i didn't realise that. Isn't it, like a major plot point that Vincent wasn't around for Sephiroth's birth? How does the whole Lucretia thing work now? She delivers Sephiroth, is his mother for two years, then Vincent finally finds out what the people he has been bodyguarding for the last three years have been doing all this time, gets shot and only then did the Jenova cells inside start screwing with Lucretia making her try to die/turn into crystal?

And that would make Sephiroth 25, Genesis 26ish at the start of FFVII, that's okay I guess at face value. Angeal died before the timeskip where Zack and Cloud were captive in Nibelheim for 4 years another year on the road after that, when Cloud was 15 to be specific. That still only makes him 19, 20 when he dies.

But in all fairness, if Vince's scene actually happen two years after Sephiroth's birth, by which time Project G had long since been scrapped and Hojo won the competition for what main subject they'e gonna use for the Jenova Project, that would explain why Prof. Gast was there by that time when he didn't actually have anyhing to do with Project S.

 

[JayM]

...yes but it still wouldn't explain how Sephiroth knew Gast enough to blame him for not explaining everything. *one-track mind wut*

I'm okay with Seph being 27 in FF7, around 22 @ Nibel and ~20 at the beginning of CC. And Zack being, what, 25, 20, and 18 respectively? I could buy that. We know Cloud was able to join the army as early as 14, so it can't be that odd, and mako probably has some steroidal properties which could help to explain Zack looking more, er, developed than an 18-year-old would normally.

What gets ME is that bit at the end of CC where you find the newspaper article with Genesis talking about wanting to meet "his hero" Sephiroth, who's the same age as him. IIRC Genesis is 13, there.

Which means Sephiroth was not only in the army already but had enough of a reputation to inspire kids halfway across the world..........at thirteen.

THAT part, I can't really get my head around, at all, no matter how you slice that fucking timeline.

 

[JayM]

jalksjdfklsdjf fucking double post

 

[Octo]

What gets ME is that bit at the end of CC where you find the newspaper article with Genesis talking about wanting to meet "his hero" Sephiroth, who's the same age as him. IIRC Genesis is 13, there.

Which means Sephiroth was not only in the army already but had enough of a reputation to inspire kids halfway across the world..........at thirteen.

THAT part, I can't really get my head around, at all, no matter how you slice that fucking timeline.

I'm going to do SE's job for them and say a wizard did it Seph has accelerated growth or some such shit

 

[JayM]

I think I read a fanfic like that once. ...actually no I totally have.

But re: the original topic, is there any evidence (script rather than timeline) that Vincent's reason for shooting Hojo was anything OTHER than "my girl's crazy alien baby is making her crazy and it's ALL YOUR FAULT RARRRRR" bc IMO script trumps timeline.

 

[ForceStealer]

You mean Vincent's reason for getting himself shot by Hojo? I don't think so. The game doesn't show any dialogue there, you just see Lucrecia collapse, then Vincent runs in, gesticulates a bunch, and Hojo shoots him.

@1:41

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Right, it was never stated in the original game what Vincent was upset with Hojo about. Since it takes place right after a pregnant Lucrecia collapses, though, the obvious implication -- and what most of us interpreted -- was that it had something to do with a complicated birth. Then the UO said this happened well after the birth, and was because of Lucrecia vanishing.

Then Dirge forgot all about that and forgot to give Vincent a reason to be upset.

 

[Dashell]

Then Dirge forgot all about that and forgot to give Vincent a reason to be upset.

I can just imagine the conversation that went on here

"Oh shit...!"
"Ah don't worry, they probably won't even notice! Just ship the game the way it is."