Is Sephiroth Really Overated As People Say He Is

[Lex]

I don't actually have a problem with the characterisation of Sephiroth in the other Compilation titles, I think they were pretty consistent. They could have gone proper insane and made him read a love novel for the entirety of Crisis Core, instead they created another offender for that role.

In fact, I quite liked his characterisation in Crisis Core. It's still Sephiroth, he's still cold as he was always described, he's just not completely insane. You can tell in the scenes with him interacting with others that while he's not connecting with others he still doesn't behave like a complete sociopath.

Having said that, yes, I do think he's an overrated villain. But whether or not something is overrated is subjective, and my opinion of his "overratedness" is based on the fact that it was always annoying 14 year old whiners in comments sections back around the time of Advent Children's release who were REALLY into Sephiroth.

Then you have the even worse people who would respond to those comments with nonsense about how Kefka was so much better because X and Y and blah blah blah, and people seem to forget that Kefka had zero motivation for being a crazy bastard other than the fact that he was a crazy bastard. His motivation, plot-wise, is actually far less developed than Sephiroth's is, but their fanboys are both equally infuriating. I happened to find the villains equally disturbing when I played through both games for the first time but just for very very different reasons. Sephiroth is this mysterious general from Cloud's past that you only learn tidbits about. Kefka pops up all over the place dressed like an idiot and laughs.

I think what people need to think more about is the fact that across all of Final Fantasy, there are better developed villains that are not flat. Kuja, Vayne, even fucking Barthandelus and Caius have real and almost-relatable motivations for their actions compared to Kefka and Sephiroth, and that these discussions always devolve into how much better people think Kefka is gets on my tits royally, because they're on a very equal level of villain quality in my opinion. I'm not saying either of them are poor villains, but they could both use a hell of a lot more depth.

tl;dr yes and no. Those that are overrated are only so because annoying people have unfortuantely made it seem that way

 

[Clement Rage]

If Sephiroth had been focused on taking over the world instead of obsessing over Cloud, the game would have ended when everyone was locked up in Shin-Ra's holding cells

I disagree that he was obsessed with Cloud. He doesn't even remember who he is at the bottom of the cargo ship.

He couldn't get the Black materia without someone to solve that puzzle, hence the whole chase. Cloud was just a convenient high functioning Clone.

Kefka never did much for me, he was just generic 'crazy clown'.

Edit: My understanding of the game is that Sephiroth appeared in the Shinra building (my personal pet theory was that he possessed a clone, hence the '1' tattoo on his hand, presumably the original Sephiroth didn't have that tattoo ('Hey, Professor Gast? Why do I have a barcode on my hand?')), and released Cloud (and only Cloud) because the Jenova reunion required as many clones as possible to assemble at the north cave. So he strings him along for another while, uses him to get the Black materia, and appears twice thereafter.

1. To deal with Aeris, a direct and serious threat.
2. Back at the North Cave, where the reunion for some reason involves slaughtering the surviving clones. He tries to kill Cloud there, and completely unexpectedly, loses. Up to then, Cloud had just been another clone, but now he has to improvise the whole thing with the illusions in order to get the materia to him to summon Meteor.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're mistaken about a few things there. First, he didn't need Cloud in order to get the Black Materia. Hell, Cloud isn't even the one who gets it. It was an animatronic cat operated by remote control.

If Reeve could solve the puzzle, then the guy who had absorbed the Ancients' knowledge about the temple certainly could have. Seph also had no problem sacrificing a piece of Jenova on the cargo ship or at the Forgotten Capital, so he could have done it at the temple too.

As for not recognizing Cloud on the cargo ship, of course he recognized him. He opened Cloud's cell door back in Midgar, remember? The cargo ship was just the first part of messing with Cloud's head, a plan that would continue up to the casting of Meteor.

Next, Seph didn't have a "1" tattoo on his hand, but neither did the Seph who killed President Shinra. It had been a copy who had the tattoo, not Seph. Dio speaks of meeting two different people -- one is the copy with the tattoo, wearing a cloak, while the other is Sephiroth himself.

It was Jenova's headless body that assumed Seph's form in the Shin-Ra building.

Finally, at the crater, Seph deliberately lost that fight. Remember that a few minutes later he knocks out (four of them)/tricks (Red XIII) the entire team, except for the three who went on ahead? He never would have had a problem killing them at any time before that.

Hell, Aerith herself he could have killed at any time. He just wanted to force Cloud to do it, so he dicked around too long and she ended up casting Holy when Cloud resisted Seph.

 

[jazzflower92]

Sephiroth here acts like how a cat plays with his food before it closes in for the strike.

In some ways I feel Square doesn't realize how much of an informed attribute with Sephiroth being the most powerful being on earth. Mainly because he is supposed to have no equal yet he keeps on getting beat by the same person over and over again. I know they have that arrogance justification but eventually Sephiroth will have to drop it and get down to business.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think that's where Seph has lost his edge as an intimidating villain for a lot of people. He came back arguably more powerful than ever and lost again for the same reason.

Really, no other FF villain ever had success in the bag from the start, only to spend their entire game losing an air-tight victory because of hubris.

 

[jazzflower92]

I think that's where Seph has lost his edge as an intimidating villain for a lot of people. He came back arguably more powerful than ever and lost again for the same reason.

Really, no other FF villain ever had success in the bag from the start, only to spend their entire game losing an air-tight victory because of hubris.

Yeah, Sephiroth suffers from Villain Decay because he can't back up his most powerful being in the universe status. If they know in the end he will be defeated then there is no more use being intimidated by him. It seems to me that Sephiroth is a villain who never learns from his mistakes and never gives up his pride in order to get the job done. In fact its because of his pride that the gang wins in the end.

In essence there should be a discussion what changes to Sephiroth could make him a more interesting and relatable villain. Also talk about how powerful he really should be because he can't keep losing and still keep his most powerful being in the universe rank.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He's like Thanos in that respect. Unlike Thanos, though, he doesn't have the thoroughly interesting psychological exploration in which he's forced to admit to himself that deep down he knows he isn't worthy of ruling the universe, and, thus, engineers his own defeat by subconsciously creating a scenario in which he can be defeated.

Ignore everything done with him after "Annihilation," of course, because Marvel felt the need to bring him back from a perfect, peaceful death for a character who performed the greatesr heel-face turn in the history of Western comics -- and ruin him by inexplicably making him a megalomaniacal villain again, when he hadn't been a villain in about twenty years.

 

[jazzflower92]

He's like Thanos in that respect. Unlike Thanos, though, he doesn't have the thoroughly interesting psychological exploration in which he's forced to admit himself that deep down he knows he isn't worthy of ruling the universe, and, thus, engineers his own defest by subconsciously creating a scenario in which he can be defeated.

Ignore everything done with him after "Annihilation," of course, because Marvel felt the need to bring him back from a perfect, peaceful death for a character who performed the greatesr heel-face turn in the history of Western comics -- and ruin him by inexplicably making him a megalomaniacal villain again, when he hadn't been a villain in about twenty years.

After some stupid stuff that Marvel has put out through the last decade they kind of remind me of how they sometimes make the same story wise mistakes as Square does. Trying to be too angsty, bringing up tired story plots, making certain characters unsympathetic, creating pointless characters who are hated by the fanbase, and flanderizing their characters for some reason or another.

With Sephiroth they seem to stop caring about his personality or character after he became a villain. Which in my opinion is just lazy writing because often times the villain will have to be an interesting character in order for the audience to either care or hate him. As a hero Sephiroth had loads of characteristics that actually made him endearing even though many know he would eventually become a villain. After his Face Heel Turn there is nothing there to make him be relatable or even retain some of his old personality traits.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, in fairness, the fandom didn't see Sephiroth depicted as a "hero" for more than a decade after FFVII came out, and he has always been a well-received villain.

 

[Skan]

Also, to be fair to SE, I doubt they expected FF7 to be popular enough for spin-offs, and so they didn't really write all of the characters in a way that would be conducive to much extension/exploration. To put it simply, they will always have to deal with how Sephiroth's portrayed in FF7, because that's simply how they first wrote him, and it's not like they can retcon him (like they can with smaller details), because his characterization in FF7 is such an integral part of the game. There's just always going to be this fixed point where Sephiroth goes batshit insane.

In hindsight, it's easy to complain about it, but that's just how it goes. I'm sure they've torn out some of their hairs over how to breathe more life into his character, but at this point, I don't think he's salvageable. I also think half the reason they introduced Genesis is to provide another take on a Sephiroth-like character, but one who is salvageable.

 

[jazzflower92]

Also, to be fair to SE, I doubt they expected FF7 to be popular enough for spin-offs, and so they didn't really write all of the characters in a way that would be conducive to much extension/exploration. To put it simply, they will always have to deal with how Sephiroth's portrayed in FF7, because that's simply how they first wrote him, and it's not like they can retcon him (like they can with smaller details), because his characterization in FF7 is such an integral part of the game. There's just always going to be this fixed point where Sephiroth goes batshit insane.

In hindsight, it's easy to complain about it, but that's just how it goes. I'm sure they've torn out some of their hairs over how to breathe more life into his character, but at this point, I don't think he's salvageable. I also think half the reason they introduced Genesis is to provide another take on a Sephiroth-like character, but one who is salvageable.

Genesis wasn't salvageable he was a concept that was really bad and wasn't that interesting anyway. Also in my opinion he got away to easy for all the stuff he pulled in his game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's not that Genesis isn't salvageable. He is. Even with all the evil shit he did without remorse or the slightest bit of being interesting while doing, he could be taken in any direction.

Remember, even Kuja became a good guy, and even The Doctor from "Doctor Who" has committed genocide. Salvaging a poorly written character is only as difficult as writing them well.

 

[looneymoon]

I always thought his descent into madness was hella stupid.

I'M JUST GONNA BELIEVE MY MOMMA IS AN ALIEN NOW I'M GOING TO GO DESTROY THE WORLD *hairflip* *runway walks through the flames of Nibelheim* *no actual character development past this point*

Someone somewhere thought this was a great idea for a villain. Somehow some way people ate it the fuck up.

 

[jazzflower92]

It's not that Genesis isn't salvageable. He is. Even with all the evil shit he did without remorse or the slightest bit of being interesting while doing, he could be taken in any direction.

Remember, even Kuja became a good guy, and even The Doctor from "Doctor Who" has committed genocide. Salvaging a poorly written character is only as difficult as writing them well.

Even then he didn't earn his redemption that much is what doesn't sit well with me. Yeah, but with all the character shilling he seems to get from the Square staff I don't think he will be taken in a right direction. Sorry, but Genesis's character arc really seems in a way hypocritical and a case of moral dissonance in story. Taken in point Obito/Tobi who I think is really unintentionally unsympathetic.

 

[Skan]

He's definitely salvageable. For one, he's not rotting away in the Lifestream. For another, he's not as insane as Sephiroth and doesn't have a Cloud fixation. And let's not forget that the amount of bad he's done in the world is like a speck of dust compared to the amount of bad Sephiroth's done (so it seems odd to me that you want to salvage Sephiroth as a character and yet think that Genesis is not salvageable). All these things combined already give Genesis far more potential growth as a character than Sephiroth.

I don't think the Compilation has ever made a big deal out of "morality."

It's clear that Genesis doesn't "deserve" his redemption at the end of CC, but he's been forgiven and granted it anyways. That means (ideally) he'll be trying big time to "earn" it after the fact and to pay off his debt to the Planet.

 

[jazzflower92]

He's definitely salvageable. For one, he's not rotting away in the Lifestream. For another, he's not as insane as Sephiroth and doesn't have a Cloud fixation. And let's not forget that the amount of bad he's done in the world is like a speck of dust compared to the amount of bad Sephiroth's done (so it seems odd to me that you want to salvage Sephiroth as a character and yet think that Genesis is not salvageable). All these things combined already give Genesis far more potential growth as a character than Sephiroth.

I don't think the Compilation has ever made a big deal out of "morality."

It's clear that Genesis doesn't "deserve" his redemption at the end of CC, but he's been forgiven and granted it anyways. That means (ideally) he'll be trying big time to "earn" it after the fact and to pay off his debt to the Planet.

Nope I think Sephiroth is beyond gone what I really should have happened is Genesis in his game be held to the same standard. Speck of dust doesn't work sometimes because it make people use that as an excuse to get away with crimes of the past. It also tells volumes about the planet of who it chooses. At that point in the time line he has done a lot of stuff that Sephiroth would later do but he gets a slap on the back. He is my least favorite character next to Lucrecia's depiction in DOC.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't know that I would say Genesis's crimes are a speck in comparison to Sephiroth's. Granted, we have no idea how many people geostigma ultimately killed, but both of them slaughtered at least one entire town (Nibelheim and Banora), and while dozens of deaths can be attributed to Sephiroth in the course of FFVII, Genesis has hundreds from Crisis Core if we go off just the SOLDIERs he turned into copies. That's without even knowing the full extent of deaths among civilians and other Shin-Ra personnel.

It's really hard to say who has done worse. Both of them killed a lot of people, and while Sephiroth came closer to killing everyone in the world, both of them wanted to do it.

But, yes, Genesis is more readily available to taking a new direction than Sephiroth. If Seph were to ever be portrayed differently now, it wouldn't sit well with even people who have been disappointed with him.

 

[jazzflower92]

I don't know that I would say Genesis's crimes are a speck in comparison to Sephiroth's. Granted, we have no idea how many people geostigma ultimately killed, but both of them slaughtered at least one entire town (Nibelheim and Banora), and while dozens of deaths can be attributed to Sephiroth in the course of FFVII, Genesis has hundreds from Crisis Core if we go off just the SOLDIERs he turned into copies. That's without even knowing the full extent of deaths among civilians and other Shin-Ra personnel.

It's really hard to say who has done worse. Both of them killed a lot of people, and while Sephiroth came closer to killing everyone in the world, both of them wanted to do it.

But, yes, Genesis is more readily available to taking a new direction than Sephiroth. If Seph were to ever be portrayed differently now, it wouldn't sit well with even people who have been disappointed with him.

Yeah, I agree I don't think it would be right to have Seph be redeemed after all the things he has done. And he really seems on being content on fostering his hatred for everything till the end of time. That is as bad as how Sasuke was redeemed in my eyes.

 

[Skan]

Yeah, sorry about the hyperbole there with the "speck."

Nope I think Sephiroth is beyond gone what I really should have happened is Genesis in his game be held to the same standard. Speck of dust doesn't work sometimes because it make people use that as an excuse to get away with crimes of the past. It also tells volumes about the planet of who it chooses. At that point in the time line he has done a lot of stuff that Sephiroth would later do but he gets a slap on the back. He is my least favorite character next to Lucrecia's depiction in DOC.

Hmm, I guess I don't quite know what kind of response you want to see. If you dislike his character, then you're in good company, because a lot of people dislike his character. As he's written in CC, he's utterly pathetic and not even likeable (like Sephiroth). But ... well, regardless of it all, he's still hanging around ...

I mean, you don't have to like it, but that's just how SE decided to play it out. People do bad things and get their comeuppance (e.g. Sephiroth, Hojo, the elder Shinra, etc.). People do bad things but are forgiven (e.g. Rufus, the Turks, Genesis, Barret, etc.). It happens all over the game, it happens across all different sorts of media, and it happens in real life. Does it make what they did in the past okay? No, it doesn't. But that's how a form of forgiveness works.

The Master in Doctor Who is a good example. If ever there was one character who really, really, really doesn't "deserve" to live, it's probably him. But the Doctor still tries to save him, and in the end, even he serves a purpose and manages to "redeem" himself in a manner.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, sorry about the hyperbole there with the "speck."


Hmm, I guess I don't quite know what kind of response you want to see. If you dislike his character, then you're in good company, because a lot of people dislike his character. As he's written in CC, he's utterly pathetic and not even likeable (like Sephiroth). But ... well, regardless of it all, he's still hanging around ...

I mean, you don't have to like it, but that's just how SE decided to play it out. People do bad things and get their comeuppance (e.g. Sephiroth, Hojo, the elder Shinra, etc.). People do bad things but are forgiven (e.g. Rufus, the Turks, Genesis, Barret, etc.). It happens all over the game, it happens across all different sorts of media, and it happens in real life. Does it make what they did in the past okay? No, it doesn't. But that's how a form of forgiveness works.

The Master in Doctor Who is a good example. If ever there was one character who really, really, really doesn't "deserve" to live, it's probably him. But the Doctor still tries to save him, and in the end, even he serves a purpose and manages to "redeem" himself in a manner.

Although I do think the Turks were let off a little too light for participating in the destruction of Sector 7. At least Barret was later called out on it later in the game. Only following orders has a limit as an excuse.

 

[clowd]

The thing is, I never rated him highly to begin with. So its impossible for me to overrate him. Jenova is the more interesting villain, but Sephiroth does intimidate you and of course theres the part where he kills Aeris.

Overall I'd say hes probably the 6th or 7th most interesting character in the game. Thats not really a knock on Sephiroth as much as it is a testament to how good the other characters are. Rufus is a better villain because his goals are more 'human' or natural (greed, control etc)

 

[Ghost X]

Going on the OG alone, trying to remember back to when I first played the game and wasn't exposed to the hype, I thought Sephiroth was a pretty cool character. Certainly very impressionable. I may have been a naive young teenager, uninformed as to what makes a well-written character n' what not, but I'm just saying what I remember experiencing. Even if I played the game now, in a similarly controlled isolated environment, I think I'd feel the same way.

I suspect it is all the scenes he was associated with. The impaling of the Shinra President, the impaling of the Midgar Zolem, the impaling of the Aerith, the impa- *ahem* the burning of the Nibelheim, the manipulating of Cloud, being Safer Sephiroth with the epic music in the background, etc. Those are pretty memorable scenes, and this is what does it for me. As others have noted, he has a certain off screen presence as well. He doesn't have to even be visible to have an impact .

 

[jazzflower92]

Now how can we forget about everyone's most hated scientist Professor Hojo. Most of the bad things that happen in the game is because of him. Lets not forget that Sephiroth is his greatest creation. I say creation because Hojo would probably prefer seeing himself as Sephiroth's creator than father. Not mention how he orphaned Aerith as well through shooting her father and Ifalna dying from his experiments. Vincent can write a book on how Hojo ruined his life. Cloud's identity crisis stems from the fact that the scientist was allowed to do as he pleased with him. He also threw away his wife when he didn't need her anymore and never allowed her to even hold her son after he was born. Also Red was captured to be his lab experiment as well.

 

[Clement Rage]

You're mistaken about a few things there. First, he didn't need Cloud in order to get the Black Materia. Hell, Cloud isn't even the one who gets it. It was an animatronic cat operated by remote control.

If Reeve could solve the puzzle, then the guy who had absorbed the Ancients' knowledge about the temple certainly could have. Seph also had no problem sacrificing a piece of Jenova on the cargo ship or at the Forgotten Capital, so he could have done it at the temple too.

As for not recognizing Cloud on the cargo ship, of course he recognized him. He opened Cloud's cell door back in Midgar, remember? The cargo ship was just the first part of messing with Cloud's head, a plan that would continue up to the casting of Meteor.

Next, Seph didn't have a "1" tattoo on his hand, but neither did the Seph who killed President Shinra. It had been a copy who had the tattoo, not Seph. Dio speaks of meeting two different people -- one is the copy with the tattoo, wearing a cloak, while the other is Sephiroth himself.

It was Jenova's headless body that assumed Seph's form in the Shin-Ra building.

Finally, at the crater, Seph deliberately lost that fight. Remember that a few minutes later he knocks out (four of them)/tricks (Red XIII) the entire team, except for the three who went on ahead? He never would have had a problem killing them at any time before that.

Hell, Aerith herself he could have killed at any time. He just wanted to force Cloud to do it, so he dicked around too long and she ended up casting Holy when Cloud resisted Seph.

Do we know that the JENOVA pieces would be capable of solving that puzzle alone? The forms they take don't seem super smart or dextrous. I prefer to assume that there was some anti JENOVA countermeasure we never saw in the temple, because otherwise Sephiroth is one of the least capable villains in the history of fiction.

It was Jenova's headless body that assumed Seph's form in the Shin-Ra building.

Okay, but then where does she get the new body by the end of the game? And why bring it all that way just to destroy it?

Hell, Aerith herself he could have killed at any time. He just wanted to force Cloud to do it, so he dicked around too long and she ended up casting Holy when Cloud resisted Seph

If he could find her on time. Maybe it's a Voldemort situation, where he can't find her unless Cloud knows.

Or maybe not, and I'm reaching. I just prefer to read things thinking 'if there's an obvious solution, someone has thought of it, and it doesn't work.'

 

[Skan]

Do we know that the JENOVA pieces would be capable of solving that puzzle alone? The forms they take don't seem super smart or dextrous. I prefer to assume that there was some anti JENOVA countermeasure we never saw in the temple, because otherwise Sephiroth is one of the least capable villains in the history of fiction.



Okay, but then where does she get the new body by the end of the game? And why bring it all that way just to destroy it?



If he could find her on time. Maybe it's a Voldemort situation, where he can't find her unless Cloud knows.

Or maybe not, and I'm reaching. I just prefer to read things thinking 'if there's an obvious solution, someone has thought of it, and it doesn't work.'

By the time of FF7, Sephiroth was more or less controlling Jenova. Maybe there was a countermeasure in the Temple, but in that case, all Sephiroth would have to do is send one of his clones in to get it for him anyways (as Cloud mentioned). We don't know how difficult the Temple's puzzle really is, anyways; it could be as simple as a Rubik's Cube or it could be as difficult as Sudoku insane-mode.

What new body by the end of the game? That was just Jenova's head. We all know that Jenova can take on different forms and make it seem like they're separate entities in themselves. (Personally, I am disappointed I never got to fight Jenova's left nipple.)

Sephiroth was trying to absorb all the Jenova cells, as I understand it. It's why he was calling for Reunion and why he was slaughtering his clones left and right at the crater. (Someone feel free to correct me on this though.)

I guess it's possible he couldn't find Aerith without Cloud, but given that he had all the knowledge of the Lifestream, surely he knew where Aerith needed to go to summon Holy. If anything, he was probably staked out there already by the time Cloud & co. showed up.

In FF7, I think it's clear that Sephiroth's not all there ... so his (lack of) competency is easy to explain away.