Is the ff7 remake an ode to the fans or a revival of a dying series

[Mod player 28]

I agree there definitely I guess that's all it is really final fantasy just hasnt really matured into modern gaming I think ffxii should be classed as a sub category that's why I tried my best not to mention it because it is a phenomenal game but it's sort a class of it's own inbetween ff tactics and the world of final fantasy with it's own unique battle system And the introduction of new summons it was a class of it's own

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think enix may not have ruined a good game but they will never be able to collaborate a final fantasy game nearly as good as original squaresoft team ...

The vast majority of lead developers on the FF games since the merger have been people from the Square days -- including Motomu Toriyama, Hiroki Chiba, Tetsuya Nomura, Yoshinori Kitase, Yasumi Matsuno, Hiroyuki Ito, Daisuke Watanabe, Koichi Ogawa, Takeshi Arakawa, Shinji Hashimoto, Ichiro Hazama, Nobuaki Komoto, Yoji Fujito, Akihiko Matsui, Koichi Ishii, Hiromichi Tanaka, and Hiroshi Takai. The only particularly notable exceptions (Naoki Yoshida and Hajime Tabata) came aboard shortly after the merger, and have led highly successful FF projects themselves.

 

[Mod player 28]

It's not the franchises success that is up for dispute it's the heart of the game and why it isn't iconic anymore plus enix was the more predominant factor in the merger over squaresoft meaning the final say isn't about who developed but who said no remove this and change this it's not modern enough but final fantasy was never a modern game to start with it was a ground breaker game it was always something new and innovative that was the whole point since the first ff game plus you may be right but it's still not as successful as a statistic as predecessors have been so many game have surpassed final fantasy over the years and it would explain why the ff7 remake has taken so long why they have decided to make the remake why they have also hd remastered the other 2 most popular ff games and re released on all platforms the original games but I cant see a re release of ff15 in ten years to come I see your defending the name still but I dont see how it changes all these things that have been mentioned how it makes any of the newer games more in line with the ff franchise and how they have struggled to make the story work in a way that it used to work modern gaming is all about complete the missions and side quests and the older games had than and then some the only way to say it was you played the games for the stories and the side quests and gameplay was a bonus where now if a final fantasy has a great story with amazing back stories that make you feel part of the game that's the bonus in respect to the development team maybe they need to go back to old school ways to come up with something new and as stated already it is clear they have struggled to do any of this in modern gaming and there is nothing consistent about what people like the only thing anyone has said is anticipating dlc and more gameplay but the gameplay isn't the dispute it's why is it not as successful anymore and we have sort of closed the thread on that one now by all means make your point but I have figured out what I needed to figure out now and that is that the franchise needs to go back to its roots and mature its story in a way it brings gamers back to the final fantasy world just as it once did I mean even aeriths death was originally to bring a realism aspect in the game to make gamers see that death is the be all and end all the difference between being knocked out and actually dying yet they could do that on playstation graphics but they cant do that in modern day graphics because though the graphics and consoles have matured... and yes they are successful games but is it down to there playability or down to the fact they are final fantasy games to go from selling 140 million copies of one game to only selling 8 million is a giant step down I wouldn't call that success compared to destiny which 5.4million copies in its first week and also borderlands 3 which has already sold over 5million copies in a month final fantasy were ahead of the curve and these games are miles ahead of final fantasy when it comes to shear success ff7r may have started out for the fans but I think it's now more a chance to get ahead of the games it's been put back for so long and rightly so because it would have been overshadowed by other bigger games where ff10 for example back in the day when ff franchise was big released same day as midway shadow hearts cause a massive decliegn in sales of shadow hearts although it is also a fantastic game and should have sold a lot more copies than it did and that is widely known by anyone who has played the game I have not met one person who has played it and thought otherwise if you eve played koudelka on playstation it's the sequal to koudelka but not directly a sequal it's a bit like chrono trigger going into chrono cross but if they had released the remake st the same time as borderlands 3 they would be losing sales due to borderlands being bigger and currently a lot more successful

 

[Lulcielid]

It's not the franchises success that is up for dispute it's the heart of the game and why it isn't iconic anymore plus enix was the more predominant factor in the merger over squaresoft meaning the final say isn't about who developed but who said no remove this and change this it's not modern enough but final fantasy was never a modern game to start with it was a ground breaker game it was always something new and innovative that was the whole point since the first ff game plus you may be right but it's still not as successful as a statistic as predecessors have been so many game have surpassed final fantasy over the years and it would explain why the ff7 remake has taken so long why they have decided to make the remake why they have also hd remastered the other 2 most popular ff games and re released on all platforms the original games but I cant see a re release of ff15 in ten years to come I see your defending the name still but I dont see how it changes all these things that have been mentioned how it makes any of the newer games more in line with the ff franchise and how they have struggled to make the story work in a way that it used to work modern gaming is all about complete the missions and side quests and the older games had than and then some the only way to say it was you played the games for the stories and the side quests and gameplay was a bonus where now if a final fantasy has a great story with amazing back stories that make you feel part of the game that's the bonus in respect to the development team maybe they need to go back to old school ways to come up with something new and as stated already it is clear they have struggled to do any of this in modern gaming and there is nothing consistent about what people like the only thing anyone has said is anticipating dlc and more gameplay but the gameplay isn't the dispute it's why is it not as successful anymore and we have sort of closed the thread on that one now by all means make your point but I have figured out what I needed to figure out now and that is that the franchise needs to go back to its roots and mature its story in a way it brings gamers back to the final fantasy world just as it once did I mean even aeriths death was originally to bring a realism aspect in the game to make gamers see that death is the be all and end all the difference between being knocked out and actually dying yet they could do that on playstation graphics but they cant do that in modern day graphics because though the graphics and consoles have matured... and yes they are successful games but is it down to there playability or down to the fact they are final fantasy games to go from selling 140 million copies of one game to only selling 8 million is a giant step down I wouldn't call that success compared to destiny which 5.4million copies in its first week and also borderlands 3 which has already sold over 5million copies in a month final fantasy were ahead of the curve and these games are miles ahead of final fantasy when it comes to shear success ff7r may have started out for the fans but I think it's now more a chance to get ahead of the games it's been put back for so long and rightly so because it would have been overshadowed by other bigger games where ff10 for example back in the day when ff franchise was big released same day as midway shadow hearts cause a massive decliegn in sales of shadow hearts although it is also a fantastic game and should have sold a lot more copies than it did and that is widely known by anyone who has played the game I have not met one person who has played it and thought otherwise if you eve played koudelka on playstation it's the sequal to koudelka but not directly a sequal it's a bit like chrono trigger going into chrono cross but if they had released the remake st the same time as borderlands 3 they would be losing sales due to borderlands being bigger and currently a lot more successful

Jesus Christ, could you apply some formatting to this mess of text?

 

[Ite]

It's not the franchises success that is up for dispute it's the heart of the game and why it isn't iconic anymore plus enix was the more predominant factor in the merger over squaresoft meaning the final say isn't about who developed but who said no remove this and change this it's not modern enough but final fantasy was never a modern game to start with it was a ground breaker game it was always something new and innovative that was the whole point since the first ff game plus you may be right but it's still not as successful as a statistic as predecessors have been so many game have surpassed final fantasy over the years and it would explain why the ff7 remake has taken so long why they have decided to make the remake why they have also hd remastered the other 2 most popular ff games and re released on all platforms the original games but I cant see a re release of ff15 in ten years to come I see your defending the name still but I dont see how it changes all these things that have been mentioned how it makes any of the newer games more in line with the ff franchise and how they have struggled to make the story work in a way that it used to work modern gaming is all about complete the missions and side quests and the older games had than and then some the only way to say it was you played the games for the stories and the side quests and gameplay was a bonus where now if a final fantasy has a great story with amazing back stories that make you feel part of the game that's the bonus in respect to the development team maybe they need to go back to old school ways to come up with something new and as stated already it is clear they have struggled to do any of this in modern gaming and there is nothing consistent about what people like the only thing anyone has said is anticipating dlc and more gameplay but the gameplay isn't the dispute it's why is it not as successful anymore and we have sort of closed the thread on that one now by all means make your point but I have figured out what I needed to figure out now and that is that the franchise needs to go back to its roots and mature its story in a way it brings gamers back to the final fantasy world just as it once did I mean even aeriths death was originally to bring a realism aspect in the game to make gamers see that death is the be all and end all the difference between being knocked out and actually dying yet they could do that on playstation graphics but they cant do that in modern day graphics because though the graphics and consoles have matured... and yes they are successful games but is it down to there playability or down to the fact they are final fantasy games to go from selling 140 million copies of one game to only selling 8 million is a giant step down I wouldn't call that success compared to destiny which 5.4million copies in its first week and also borderlands 3 which has already sold over 5million copies in a month final fantasy were ahead of the curve and these games are miles ahead of final fantasy when it comes to shear success ff7r may have started out for the fans but I think it's now more a chance to get ahead of the games it's been put back for so long and rightly so because it would have been overshadowed by other bigger games where ff10 for example back in the day when ff franchise was big released same day as midway shadow hearts cause a massive decliegn in sales of shadow hearts although it is also a fantastic game and should have sold a lot more copies than it did and that is widely known by anyone who has played the game I have not met one person who has played it and thought otherwise if you eve played koudelka on playstation it's the sequal to koudelka but not directly a sequal it's a bit like chrono trigger going into chrono cross but if they had released the remake st the same time as borderlands 3 they would be losing sales due to borderlands being bigger and currently a lot more successful

... I appreciate your enthusiasm, but it's hard to actually understand your points when you write so much in one long sentence.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Here's his post broken up more or less into sentences...

Spoiler

It's not the franchises success that is up for dispute

it's the heart of the game and why it isn't iconic anymore plus enix was the more predominant factor in the merger over squaresoft

meaning the final say isn't about who developed but who said no remove this and change this

it's not modern enough but final fantasy was never a modern game to start with

it was a ground breaker game it was always something new and innovative that was the whole point since the first ff game plus

you may be right but it's still not as successful as a statistic as predecessors have been so many game have surpassed final fantasy over the years and

it would explain why the ff7 remake has taken so long

why they have decided to make the remake

why they have also hd remastered the other 2 most popular ff games and re released on all platforms the original games but I cant see a re release of ff15 in ten years to come

I see your defending the name still but I dont see how it changes all these things that have been mentioned

how it makes any of the newer games more in line with the ff franchise and

how they have struggled to make the story work in a way that it used to work

modern gaming is all about complete the missions and side quests and the older games had than and then some

the only way to say it was you played the games for the stories and the side quests and gameplay was a bonus where now if a final fantasy has a great story with amazing back stories that make you feel part of the game that's the bonus

in respect to the development team maybe they need to go back to old school ways to come up with something new and as stated already it is clear they have struggled to do any of this in modern gaming and

there is nothing consistent about what people like the only thing anyone has said is anticipating dlc and more gameplay but the gameplay isn't the dispute

it's why is it not as successful anymore and we have sort of closed the thread on that one

now by all means make your point but I have figured out what I needed to figure out now and that is that the franchise needs to go back to its roots and mature its story in a way it brings gamers back to the final fantasy world just as it once did

I mean even aeriths death was originally to bring a realism aspect in the game to make gamers see that death is the be all and end all

the difference between being knocked out and actually dying yet they could do that on playstation graphics but they cant do that in modern day graphics because though the graphics and consoles have matured...

and yes they are successful games but is it down to there playability or down to the fact they are final fantasy games to go from selling 140 million copies of one game to only selling 8 million is a giant step down

I wouldn't call that success compared to destiny which 5.4million copies in its first week and also borderlands 3 which has already sold over 5million copies in a month

final fantasy were ahead of the curve and these games are miles ahead of final fantasy when it comes to shear success

ff7r may have started out for the fans but I think it's now more a chance to get ahead of the games it's been put back for so long and rightly so because it would have been overshadowed by other bigger games

where ff10 for example back in the day when ff franchise was big released same day as midway shadow hearts cause a massive decliegn in sales of shadow hearts although it is also a fantastic game and should have sold a lot more copies than it did and that is widely known by anyone who has played the game

I have not met one person who has played it and thought otherwise

if you eve played koudelka on playstation it's the sequal to koudelka but not directly a sequal it's a bit like chrono trigger going into chrono cross but

if they had released the remake st the same time as borderlands 3 they would be losing sales due to borderlands being bigger and currently a lot more successful

 

[Mod player 28]

Jesus Christ, could you apply some formatting to this mess of text?

Sorry

I'll try to shorten it but it wont explains much.
Final fantasy was always the next best game it wasnt new or modern it was innovative. It has got to a point where every kid wanted the next final fantasy game because it was final fantasy because of that the main story within each game seems to have taken a hit and example would be... before everyone had youtube a final fantasy game could reach 10million sales ff7 and others close to it.

Now we can watch youtube and get and idea of how good games can be and they are selling less statistically compared to how many more gamers are out there.

When ffx came out it overshadowed midway shadow hearts which is amazing itself but didn't sell nearly as many copies as it would have if the biggest final fantasy and best on paper selling over 140millions copies to date.

But nowadays final fantasy sell still 8million copies over 2 years with dlc and and other perks.. destiny 5.4 million in a week borderlands 3 over 5million in its first month and that's only because some people cant afford it yet it will sell more.

The ff7r hasnt been released and release dat is specific as not to be overshadowed by other games also that being said if it had been released yesterday you would still be completing borderlands 3 as an everyday gamer. I understand fans like myself would play ff7r first but my point is kids aren't looking at final fantasy the same as what we did as kids.

There is much more to it than that but you'll have to read the previous post as I really cant be bothered to write it all again but on paper ff franchise doesn't meet the same criteria in sales or hit gamers the same as what it used to be it is still successful and I love the franchise but by going back to its roots and coming out with this remake is what we all need the fans the new gamers and the developers to really be able to see what final fantasy was and is all about.

Plus I personally I dont think its growing well as a franchise since yea 8million copies is good but its not picking up new fans it's always sold 8 millions copies but a lot of people didn't buy ffxiii and the added 2million copies people baught came from the added action aspect in ffxv. Again ff10 140million copies ffxv 8million and baring in mind that final fantasy is now multi platform and used to sell 8 million copies on a single platform so it has taken hits over the years and been surpassed and that is what I meant by reviving a dying series.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I really suggest you read what some of the the Square Enix devs have to say about their own work. They have absolutely seen themselves as being the creators of cutting edge video games in the Final Fantasy series. In fact, Yoshida cites that attitude as a reason why they got complacent around the time FFXIV first launched. They were so used to being so successful, they started assuming they always would be that successful and became more lax with their attitude towards making games. That eventually caught up with them and they took huge losses because of it.

You also need to look at the current game market compared to the game market when the first Final Fantasy games came out. We have so many more games available now then we did back then. There are more JRPGs then ever being made and gamers are oversaturaed with number of games they have to pick from. All games from niche titles sell less volume percentage-wise then they did back then because there are simply more games to choose from.

"Remasters" are popular for Square Enix to devote time too because they require much less development then new titles do. And they are safe investments. It is very, very likley that Square Enix will make a profit on a Remaster when they already know people liked the original. It's just good business.

I think you are mixing up how much money and many units a game sells with how good it is. That rarely, rarely correlates. The fact of the matter is, Final Fantasy games are a niche genre. That of the Japanese Role Playing Game. They will always sell less units and makes less money then the First Player Shooters and Open World Role Playing Games of the gaming world. That is just how it's going to be. Those kinds of games simply have wider audience appeal then the traditional JRPGs do.

What you see with FFXIV, FFXV and FFVIIR is Square Enix making their role playing games more like other game genres other then a traditional JRPG to capitalize on that larger market and larger interest. That has... very little to do with story quality actually. It is totally possible to make a good story with non-JRPG mechanics. In fact, I'd argue mechanics has never been a part of Final Fantasy's appeal. It's been the story and spectacle that drive the appeal of the Final Fantasy games. It's just that the last couple of singl-player Final Fantasy games have been a bit lackluster on the story aspect.

FFVIIR will do phenomenally no matter what. Everyone knows it has a good story, or at least a story worth paying attention too. The spectiacal of it is also amazing. Sphiroth is an icon even outside of the gaming world. Aerith's death is one of the most iconic deaths in gaming history. Midgar is one of the great gaming locals that stuck in everyone's mind. WEAPONs were some of the very first superbosses ever invented and launched a trend in optional boss difficulties that can be felt to this day.

The last thing Square Enix has to worry about when it comes to FFVIIR is how well it will do financially. What they are more then likely worried about above all else is showing off that they can make a great game that people want to play and will love playing.

 

[Mod player 28]

I haven't missed a single final fantasy game ok I have played them all completed them all... I wouldn't replay any of the new games apart from the portable games since I can take them anywhere final fantasy gam bass is not growing. As a developer you would be proud of your own creation but they are riding on the fans in a way and not putting as much depth into the story but more its surrounding and style of play we became fans for the of the story and the amount of fan lore that people have put into the older games and speculation but no one cares about that with the newer games.

I have not been disputing their success I have been disputing the games themselves as a final fantasy game or a new type of game that could be called something else and not nearly be as successful.

The older generation of games never showed any disappointment but the newer games have some disappointment in them your right sales have nothing to do with fan bass but it's no good gaining new fan bass if you lose the old fan bass at the same time.

That's why I made a point of saying the ff7r is what everyone needs to bring the heart of final fantasy back into gaming and put square enix back on top of the curve.

I'm sorry you seemed a bit distressed by my post and it wasnt meant to offend you but they are just simple facts anyone can look up I had my opinion before I even checked these facts out and the facts met my opinion that's why I used them. It wasnt meant to be an insult to the series but I wouldn't be proud of losing one fan as a game developer and I would want to do anything I could to gain that fan back... but business doesn't work that way I have my own business to run and I know you have to disappoint some people to move forward. But if you called ffxv anything other than final fantasy it wouldn't have sold nearly as many copies if it wsnt for us fans final fantasy would have died out long ago.

And as far as niche gaming comes in final fantasy actually always used to be in top ten gaming overshadowing many games if anything evolution of gaming has left final fantasy behind meaning they need to become innovative and hit you harder than they ever did they dont make the games for the fans they make them for the money and enjoyment money aspect given they wouldn't give you dlc for free and enjoyment because it's there passion

Sorry for the statistic but you dont sell 8million ff8 one one platform and then sell 8 million ffxv across multiple platforms and call that a success maybe I have high standards but that is a point that no one can really deny until someone can say to me something about all of the newer games that actually says your wrong and I cant dispute it with something that I already know then I wont accept that the game has grown into something better or even on the same level as what it has been in the past

 

[Mod player 28]

The last thing Square Enix has to worry about when it comes to FFVIIR is how well it will do financially. What they are more then likely worried about above all else is showing off that they can make a great game that people want to play and will love playing.

I only want to comment on this you just said what I said that expectations of a great game comes from past success and not new success your right but if your right that makes what I said right also

 

[ForceStealer]

FFVIII's sales numbers are over nearly 20 years and include rereleases on PC, PS3, and PSP. FFXV has roughly equal sales in just 3 years.

That's not really an argument that XV is better than VIII, since the game industry is simply bigger now, but it is a good sign that it is not a "dying series." (Also personally I would say XV IS better than VIII, lol)

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The older generation of games never showed any disappointment but the newer games have some disappointment in them your right sales have nothing to do with fan bass but it's no good gaining new fan bass if you lose the old fan bass at the same time.

Are you serious? Let's not have our nostalgia goggles on. The older Final Fantasy games have plenty of problems. Any game does. There will never be a perfect game. FFVII has plot holes if you look too closely at the plot, FFVIII's Junction system frustrated a lot of people, I myself can't stand the pace the of FFIX's battle system.

Also... loosing an old fan base in exchange for a new one that is willing to buy more games then the old fan base did is smart business. Only SE doesn't really have to worry about losing all the old fan base. They'll probably draw in more then enough new fans to replace the old fans.

I'm sorry you seemed a bit distressed by my post and it wasnt meant to offend you but they are just simple facts anyone can look up

I am not offended. However, they are not "simple facts". You seem to only be looking at things from one perspective and cherry picking the facts that support your opinion. And the facts you do pick are all lacking context.

And as far as niche gaming comes in final fantasy actually always used to be in top ten gaming overshadowing many games

Final Fantasy is a very successful game in a niche genre. And the genre it is a representative of doesn't grab the interest of a world-wide audience. There are now a lot more games being made in other genres that have much more mass market appeal then the JRPG genre.

Case in point, go check out the most played MMOs of 2019. FFXIV is right behind WoW and for good reason... apparently, a lot of people think it's a very well designed MMO compared to the competition. On the other hand, the MMO genre attracts a bit of a different crowd then the single-player JRPG genre does...

if anything evolution of gaming has left final fantasy behind they dont make the games for the fans

I'd love to see you try this line on all the World of Warcraft players who have left World of Warcraft for FFXIV. They certainly think the systems in FFXIV are a breath of fresh air. And think the game devs of FFXIV do care about their players more then Wow's devs do.

they make them for the money and enjoyment money aspect given they wouldn't give you dlc for free and enjoyment because it's there passion

Gaming is a business. The purpose of it is to make money. If there was no money to be made gaming, no one would do it. However, there is a world of difference between the attitude companies can take towards their playerbase. And the attitude Square Enix takes toward their playerbase is for the most part a lot more respectful then oh... Blizzard's...

Sorry for the statistic but you dont sell 8million ff8 one one platform and then sell 8 million ffxv across multiple platforms

This is an excellent example of you picking a statistic, and then not looking at the context. Back when FFVIII was released, it was really only released on two platforms, PS1 and PC. And most people played it on the PS1. The game has also been out for twenty years. It's actually sold about 9.4 million copies worldwide as of August of this year. So that doesn't actually say a lot about what people thought of the game when it first launched.

The more relevant statistic would be that it made $50 million in sales in the first thirteen weeks of it's launch back in 1999. This made it the fasting selling Final Fantasy game at the time. That would give you a good metric to compare to other Final Fantasy games (and other games in general) at their time of launch once the sales price was adjusted for inflation.

until someone can say to me something about all of the newer games that actually says your wrong and I cant dispute it with something that I already know then I wont accept that the game has grown into something better or even on the same level as what it has been in the past

This sounds a lot like you aren't willing to listen to other people's opinions on the matter unless they already agree with you.

The only question I have for you is this: Why are you correlating how good a game is as a game with how well it does financially or how many units it sells?

 

[Mod player 28]

Because it doesn't matter how much we love the games that's bow buisness works if something takes a hit in sales then that's a problem I never asked for fans to sit here and defend square enix I asked what was missing and everyone started talking about them bein successful and all sort of silly things that were never denied the point they have been inferior to the predecessors but why what's missing and someone hit the nail on the head with a preview comment stating that the devs just haven't matured into modern games like other companies have managed to do yet I'm happy to listen to anyone but sitting there defending square enix isn't going to make the games.
better nor is denying that's a games sales has something to do with it success your clearly upset by these and I'm obv in the wrong place as a fan.
You obv dont like these facts and no fan would but you cant improve a game by ignoring them facts either it's a simple catch 22 do you turn your back on your childhood gaming or do you stick by it even with it's stupid decissions...
Ans you can look at the top 100 games sales of playstation online before you come back and put down the fact but I was miss quoted as I miss typed at I meant 7 and 9milion and yes it did say 9.8million copies alone for playstion

 

[ForceStealer]

"Clearly upset?" I can barely even tell what you're on about. I was just commenting that your comparison of FFVIII to FFXV sales was not a useful comparison.

 

[Mod player 28]

Are you serious? Let's not have our nostalgia goggles on. The older Final Fantasy games have plenty of problems. Any game does. There will never be a perfect game. FFVII has plot holes if you look too closely at the plot, FFVIII's Junction system frustrated a lot of people, I myself can't stand the pace the of FFIX's battle system.

Also... loosing an old fan base in exchange for a new one that is willing to buy more games then the old fan base did is smart business. Only SE doesn't really have to worry about losing all the old fan base. They'll probably draw in more then enough new fans to replace the old fans.
I am not offended. However, they are not "simple facts". You seem to only be looking at things from one perspective and cherry picking the facts that support your opinion. And the facts you do pick are all lacking context.
Final Fantasy is a very successful game in a niche genre. And the genre it is a representative of doesn't grab the interest of a world-wide audience. There are now a lot more games being made in other genres that have much more mass market appeal then the JRPG genre.

Case in point, go check out the most played MMOs of 2019. FFXIV is right behind WoW and for good reason... apparently, a lot of people think it's a very well designed MMO compared to the competition. On the other hand, the MMO genre attracts a bit of a different crowd then the single-player JRPG genre does...
I'd love to see you try this line on all the World of Warcraft players who have left World of Warcraft for FFXIV. They certainly think the systems in FFXIV are a breath of fresh air. And think the game devs of FFXIV do care about their players more then Wow's devs do.
Gaming is a business. The purpose of it is to make money. If there was no money to be made gaming, no one would do it. However, there is a world of difference between the attitude companies can take towards their playerbase. And the attitude Square Enix takes toward their playerbase is for the most part a lot more respectful then oh... Blizzard's...
This is an excellent example of you picking a statistic, and then not looking at the context. Back when FFVIII was released, it was really only released on two platforms, PS1 and PC. And most people played it on the PS1. The game has also been out for twenty years. It's actually sold about 9.4 million copies worldwide as of August of this year. So that doesn't actually say a lot about what people thought of the game when it first launched.

The more relevant statistic would be that it made $50 million in sales in the first thirteen weeks of it's launch back in 1999. This made it the fasting selling Final Fantasy game at the time. That would give you a good metric to compare to other Final Fantasy games (and other games in general) at their time of launch once the sales price was adjusted for inflation.
This sounds a lot like you aren't willing to listen to other people's opinions on the matter unless they already agree with you.

The only question I have for you is this: Why are you correlating how good a game is as a game with how well it does financially or how many units it sells?

All of this is not durable, its valid points but I'm not the only one who has felt these things so it doesn't matter the inevitability is everything comes to an end, and has high point low point starting point and finishing point, I apologise several times if I upset people but you took it to heart now your trolling.
I didn't put down false facts I miss printed ff8 to ff7 but you argued with them that's fine but it's still doesn't change that people agree and there is nothing that can put any of them people in the place apart from a hate thread about how sales has nothing to do with how good a game is.
Your right persona is amazing and never sold half as many games but at least it always sold more copies with each game I would like to say.
mmo was mentioned that they are greatly improved with the ability to interact with other players change the world add new things it's a forever context I have all dlc for ffxv myself so I agree with you there fantastic but it took element from each game all the best elements and made it ff online they didn't need to call it final fantasy 14 and I have not been the only one to say that even friends of mine have cut me off when I call it ff14

 

[Lulcielid]

I get you're passionate about the topic but please, Mod player 28, take some time to do some proofreading because, the lack of proper formatting makes it hard to read and understand your posts.

 

[Mod player 28]

I'm sorry I'll proof read from now on but honestly trying to put down the franchise it's not what I meant if anyone wants to sit there and dispute something that I personally said that has nothing to do with the topic regarding sales and if I got something wrong it's not like I cant be messaged to say oi you got this wrong actually and I would of corrected myself happily.

But it doesn't matter even if I get humiliated for one thing I mite have i genuinely believe that the ffvii remake its 100% for the devs and the fans to help improve gaming within the final fantasy franchise theres nothing wrong with that and I dont understand why people have been so upset about it.

Ffvii changed my life and made me see a whole new world of gaming since then I've played them all naturally I feel they have gone a bit cash cow as all companies do but I dont think that should ever have been the case with final fantasy because it has such a super high fan bass and it's not an early days game it's a well established game and name that everyone knows.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Because it doesn't matter how much we love the games that's bow buisness works if something takes a hit in sales then that's a problem

It might be a problem. But the type of problem it is varies immensely by context. Losing sales happens naturally in a game's lifetime as there are less people interested in the game that haven't bought the game already.

the point they have been inferior to the predecessors

They have not been. FFXV has been more successful then it's predecessors in the same amount of time it has been out. So has FFXIV. The problem starts when you compare games that go way far back when the costs associated with making video games has changed as has the time they take to develop. It's hard to compare an MMO Final Fantasy game with a Single-Player Final Fantasy game. And it's hard to compare games that came out ten years ago with games that come out now. The industry and customer base is different enough that straight number comparisons don't work.

someone hit the nail on the head with a preview comment stating that the devs just haven't matured into modern games lik other companies have managed to do yet

The only way SE is going to mature is by making games. And yes, sometimes that means they won't make a game that is quite as good as it could have been. What matters is what they do with their mistakes though. Particularly the mistakes in the development process. FFXIV is a good example of them learning something. So is FFXV once they got into gear. FFVIIR probably will be to as we already know they didn't make anywhere near as big of a mistake with advertising a vaporware game like they did with FFXV.

You obv dont like these facts and no fan would but you cant improve a game by ignoring them facts either it's a simple catch 22 do you turn your back on your childhood gaming or do you stick by it even with it's stupid decissions...

It's not even a Catch 22. You watch the reviews of the new games that come out, take a look at their game mechanics, and if you think you'll like playing it, you get the game. If you don't like what the reviews and playthroughs are showing you, you don't get the game. This is why I play FFXIV a lot, but haven't touched FFXV. One looked like fun, the other didn't. And you thank Square Enix for at least coming out with their old games on new hardware so they don't go the way of Nintendo games...

I apologise several times if I upset people but you took it to heart now your trolling.

Um... what? You aren't upsetting anyone. It's just that I find the video game market fascinating to look at and watching how SE has slowly been turning themselves around has been interesting to watch.

there is nothing that can put any of them people in the place apart from a hate thread about how sales has nothing to do with how good a game is.

They do not. Some of the best games I've played are small indie titles that barley make back the money they take to make. If sales were the only things game companies cared about, no one would ever make games like that. But you see people trying to make them all the time. So obviously something besides the money is driving them to make really good games.

Your right persona is amazing and never sold half as many games but at least it always sold more copies with each game I would like to say.

This is like saying an author is only doing well if they sell more volumes of later books in a series then the first book. Which isn't how it works. A lot of people will play/read the first game/book in a series if the series is serial and decide they don't like it and then never go on to play /read the next game/book in the series. It simply doesn't work that way.

Final Fantasy games are also interesting is that none of the games are really part of the same series. FFVIII is not the squeal to FFVII and so on. They are really all separate games that just so happen to have similar titles made by the same company. Seeing numbered FF games sell different amounts should be expected because just because you like one doesn't mean you will like the others.

mmo was mentioned that they are greatly improved with the ability to interact with other players change the world add new things it's a forever context

I have all dlc for ffxv myself so I agree with you there fantastic

but it took element from each game all the best elements and made it ff online

they didn't need to call it final fantasy 14 and

I have not been the only one to say that even friends of mine have cut me off when I call it ff14

What do you mean by this? The multiplayer DLC from FFXV is totally different from the multiplayer content of FFXIV. There is no relationship between the two.

FFXIV does take elements from all the other Final Fantasy games. So do all the other Final Fantasy games. It also has a completely original story in it that is separate from all the other Final Fantasy stories like a single-player FF game does, and it is one of the best Final Fantasy stories out of the entire franchise. Just for the story alone, FFXIV deserves to be compared to the stories of the other FF games at a bare minimum.

But it doesn't matter even if I get humiliated for one thing I mite have i genuinely believe that the ffvii remake its 100% for the devs and the fans to help improve gaming within the final fantasy franchise theres nothing wrong with that and I dont understand why people have been so upset about it.

What I feel like you are saying is that everything is doom and gloom because the Final Fantasy franchise isn't out-performing the better known games. That isn't how the industry works though. And it makes it hard to take what you are saying seriously. Square Enix itself doens't seem to think the franchise is in anywhere near as much danger as it was ten years ago. And say what you want, FFXV made Square Enix money in the long run, as is FFXIV. So enough people like their newer games to make it lucritive for Square Enix to make more modern Final Fantasy games. That don't sound like what you are describing at all.

I feel they have gone a bit cash cow as all companies do but I dont think that should ever have been the case with final fantasy because it has such a super high fan bass and it's not an early days game it's a well established game and name that everyone knows.

This is the opposite of how it usually works. The better a game is known, the more money can be gotten out of the fans of it if the devs do it right. That the main Final Fantasy games aren't pushing that kind of business model is a point in Square Enix's favor. You look at the main Final Fantasy games, and they can be enjoyed without the DLC, and the bulk of the DLC that is out for FFXV is worth getting becuase of what it adds to the experience. FFXIV is a little different since it's an MMO, but there's never been an expansion for it no one ever thought wasn't worth getting. Quite the opposite...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

and yes they are successful games but is it down to there playability or down to the fact they are final fantasy games to go from selling 140 million copies of one game to only selling 8 million is a giant step down

When ffx came out it overshadowed midway shadow hearts which is amazing itself but didn't sell nearly as many copies as it would have if the biggest final fantasy and best on paper selling over 140millions copies to date.

...

Plus I personally I dont think its growing well as a franchise since yea 8million copies is good but its not picking up new fans it's always sold 8 millions copies but a lot of people didn't buy ffxiii and the added 2million copies people baught came from the added action aspect in ffxv. Again ff10 140million copies ffxv 8million and baring in mind that final fantasy is now multi platform and used to sell 8 million copies on a single platform so it has taken hits over the years and been surpassed and that is what I meant by reviving a dying series.

I'm trying to come up with a more polite way of saying this, but you don't know what you're talking about. No single FF game has sold 140 million copies; it's the franchise as a whole that has sold over 140 million copies.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I've had a hard time figuring out what Mod Player 24's argument is, but I disagree with the premise that recent FF games are worse than earlier ones. In the first place, Obsidian is right, you can't compare them; in the second place, I found FFXV was absorbing and lots of fun. I didn't experience this with X or with VIII, neither of which I ever finished. Ultimately, whether you thik a game is better or worse is all about taste. I also disagree with the premise that sales are proof of quality, whether it's video games or anything else.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

I see some of the issues people are taking here, but personally find the notion that the games are incomparable a massive hand-wave copout. But then, I pretty much always have, whenever people deploy the ol' "Appples n Oranges" argument, even where it might seem to be more justified. Like, let's say, I dunno...sports. Someone says: "A lot of people prefer basketball as a fast-paced, high-scoring sport, but I find the strategic depth of soccer makes it more interesting." Their friend says, "Well, you can't really compare the two." Well, why the hell not? Even if the only thing they have in common is being athletic activities involving spheres, you can still discern the particular qualities of each and why one might appeal more, or even fundamentally serve better as the foundation for a game. Every year, the Academy Awards pits actors whose work involves wildly different characters in wildly different narratives with wildly different barometers of what would constitute a notable performance, with the only common thread essentially being that they are people performing written lines in front of a camera, directly against each other.

So basically, what I'm getting at is that even if the FF games were only linked by being electronic games played by pressing buttons on a controller, I'd still feel they were comparable. But...they have a LOT more things in common than that, namely, being created and produced by many of the same people. Those creative teams are in turn themselves comparing current/future works with what directly preceded them and have mentioned more than once over the years the way this influences the decision-making process, better or worse.

So, despite text-walls and such [and I've created one of my own here, I see], I believe on some fundamental level, Mod Player 28 is more or just tossing out a poll: 'I feel the series has gone into a decline--in its actual quality, but with the impact act of which seeming to have also been felt in lower sales figures and decreased cultural relevance. Their current direction would seem to be an attempt to recover. What do you all think?' [If I've gotten this wrong, partially or entirely, of course feel free to correct my ig'nance]. Of course, taste/preference/etc vary wildly, so the concept of what constitutes superior quality (or a failure) is naturally subjective--but so is all art criticism, which constitutes a whole academic world onto itself--so that doesn't make such discussions and comparisons shallow, per se.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

One the one hand, I do think the Final Fantasy games can be compared to each other somewhat. On the other hand, that discussion inevitably breaks down into discussing how the gaming industry has changed over the course of the the Final Fantasy series lifetime. And how while most of them are single-player games, not all of them are.

I think you naturally end up with "families" of Final Fantasy games that you can compare to each other rather well as they were made in similar enough eras of the gaming market and with similar technology in mind to work. For instance, all the games made before the PS1 era can all easily be compared to each other. All the PS1 games can be compared to each other. However, comparing between families starts to get... harder. At least without discussing a lot of caveats and making a bunch of ground rules first. You can't easily compare FFXV with FFV for example. There's a gap of over twenty years between them and what determines a good game has changed in that time.

Even saying the series has gone into decline recently is difficult because of that. FFXIII was released ten years ago. So was FFXIV. The way they are thought about by the people who play both of them now is very different. Funny thing is, that opinion was probably reversed at the time they both launched. Is recently the past five years? FFXV did great. FFXIV is doing great. FFVIIR so far looks to be amazing. "Deciline" is not the way I would think of SE in the last half a decade.

 

[ForceStealer]

Exactly. And sure there are things you can compare between two given Final Fantasies. (Or families of games, as Obs puts it.) But something as vague as "decline" or even "dying" isn't really a meaningful statement.

Of the last three single-player main titles (12, 13, and 15), none of them are my favorite in the series. But they are all better than several that came before, including within the ascribed "golden age." Does that count as "decline?" I don't think so. If it did, than it's been declining ever since VII and Tactics, as no game has matched those two in my eyes. But I don't need each entry to be the best one I've ever played, they just need to be good, or perhaps more accurately - worthwhile.

And while you certainly can compare sales numbers, it's not meaningful over the 30 years of the series. The game industry is very different in size and scope now, with both higher production costs and much greater competition, but also a much larger number of customers. But if that's how you wanted to do it, XIII and XV outsold every game not named VII, VIII, or X. That doesn't look like a decline to me.
And if you wanted to count every $60 someone spends on XI or XIV as a new purchase, they have destroyed the sales of the rest of the series.