Is there a fan translation for the discussion in Chapter 17 with Aerith?

[ultima786]

Is there one that I can look at regarding the conversation that took place in Aerith's room? Apparently Red13 says some very different stuff than what was localized, and I'd like to take a closer look!

 

[Eerie]

In French here how it goes:

Red XIII
"They are whispers"
"The term "Guardians' destiny" is what defines them best.

Tifa
"Destiny? What do you mean?"

Red XIII
"Said otherwise, it's the flow that goes from the planet's birth to its death."

Tifa:
"And that flow of life... is predetermined. Is it how it is?"

Red XIII:
"Yes. The planet's energy will soon run dry."

Barret:
"Is it towards this desperate future that those damn whispers want to drive us to?"
"Wait up, wait up, wait up"
"How come you know so many things, you?"
"You look like you are knowledgeable, but aren't you saying whatever?"
"Ah indeed you are Shinra's dog!"

Red XIII:
"I'm not a dog."
"It is when Aerith touched me,"
"that I learned the existence of the whispers."

Aerith:
"Please."
"Listen."
*Aerith is surrounded by whispers"

Cloud:
"Aerith!"

Aerith:
"Our true enemy is not the Shinra Company."
"They indeed began everything, but what threatens us is different."
"I'd want... to do my best, no matter what."
"For you all..."
"and the planet!"

Tifa:
"Aerith, what do you exactly know?"

Aerith:
"For now, I'm lost. The more I go forward, the less I know where to go."
"When the whispers touch me, I get the impression to lose a bit of myself."
"The yellow flowers were the ones that showed me the path."

*Aerith is then saved by Tifa*

 

[ultima786]

Red XIII:
"Yes. The planet's energy will soon run dry."

Barret:
"Is it towards this desperate future that those damn whispers want to drive us to?"

Thanks so much for providing your French translation. It’s these lines that I am most interested in, and also really would like a Japanese breakdown as well. Why? Well... I’m trying to understand the relationship between Aerith, the Planet, the Whispers, and Sephiroth.

In the English ch 17 scene red13 gives no indication that the planet is on its way to death, nor does he imply that the Whispers are trying to push it towards that fate! Now the thrust for both English and French appear the same for Barrett’s lines. He is saying that the Whispers are moving us to a bad future... I had assumed this meant a future where the planet lives but humanity perhaps dies (500 years later...) but your French fan translation and apparently the Japanese are making me rethink this and now I’m wondering if I’m understanding what the Whispers actually are... that they are actually evil and are trying to end the world and people?

Why? I wonder. I now theorize that the Whispers are meant to fight for the Planet like a typical WEAPON however they are corrupted by Jenova within the Lifestream. Hence the symbolism of the enigmatic purple specter which seems to control the others in certain battles. Now they appear to be driving Gaia towards its death, perhaps at the behest of Jenova?

It also appears that Sephiroth disagrees with corrupted Planet/Whisper plan. He doesn’t want humanity to die, it seems, perhaps because he simply doesn’t want Cloud to die? There may be some misdirection here and has some other evil scheme, but I’m confident he cannot allow Cloud to die, as per chapter 2 and the ending.


Red13 in chapter 18 harbinger battle after seeing a vision of himself and his Cubs running says “[this is a glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today]” which implies something sorta different: that the whispers aren’t trying to destroy the planet but only humankind. Confusing. Maybe then the corrupted Whispers are just tasked to kill humanity only, not to destroy the world. Does this mean that “end of the world” is only the end of humankind? I’m starting to think so. I add that Jenova doesn’t want to end the world, but destroy [human?] life and therefore use the planet as a vessel to travel the cosmos and rule it.

Final Theory:
The Whispers are the voices of the planet tasked to influence destiny but are tortured by mako overuse and Jenova infecting them. Gaia is not evil, nor are the Whispers, and does not want humanity nor itself to die, but is being clouded and smothered by mako-overuse and Jenova’s stigma. Because Gaia is good, This is why the whispers were supposed to be golden in color (as per Nomura) but instead look like robed figures in lieu of Jenova. Sephiroth is against Jenova’s plan and influence and has something else in mind, which is perhaps more evil and ambitious than before. This is why at the Edge of Creation he uses the personal pronouns that imply he is more “himself” and no longer fully influenced by Jenova, but rather in control of her. He even “swiped away” the purple cage that surrounded him in the last battle. Jenova had infected both the Harbinger and Sephiroth, but now with the Harbinger destroyed, Sephiroth is free and in control. In fact, you could say Sephiroth is now the Harbinger of destiny.

am I accurate here?

 

[Eerie]

In the English ch 17 scene red13 gives no indication that the planet is on its way to death, nor does he imply that the Whispers are trying to push it towards that fate! Now the thrust for both English and French appear the same for Barrett’s lines. He is saying that the Whispers are moving us to a bad future... I had assumed this meant a future where the planet lives but humanity perhaps dies (500 years later...) but your French fan translation and apparently the Japanese are making me rethink this and now I’m wondering if I’m understanding what the Whispers actually are... that they are actually evil and are trying to end the world and people?

I do not think that this is the case. In the OG too, Buggenhagen states that the Planet is running dry of its energy, aka the Lifestream. This is due to Shinra exploiting it for its own profit. However, our party is not aware of this. Red XIII says that his knowledge has been given by Aerith earlier, however Aerith's knowledge is also incomplete - I should really do that post about her powers and knowledge, uh? This scene is specifically done to paint the Whispers as bad guys, to manipulate the players into thinking they must be stopped in order for humanity to survive. But this is not the case. We know that if they follow the OG path, then humankind will be saved, but also the Planet.

Why? I wonder. I now theorize that the Whispers are meant to fight for the Planet like a typical WEAPON however they are corrupted by Jenova within the Lifestream. Hence the symbolism of the enigmatic purple specter which seems to control the others in certain battles. Now they appear to be driving Gaia towards its death, perhaps at the behest of Jenova?

Yes, the Whispers are Weapons. There is one that we fight that is named Emerald Whisper in chapter 18. A bunch of them are indeed corrupted by Sephiroth - there are clearly two types of Whispers during the whole game, one which is controlled by the Planet, the other by Sephiroth.

It also appears that Sephiroth disagrees with corrupted Planet/Whisper plan. He doesn’t want humanity to die, it seems, perhaps because he simply doesn’t want Cloud to die? There may be some misdirection here and has some other evil scheme, but I’m confident he cannot allow Cloud to die, as per chapter 2 and the ending.

No. You misunderstood. Sephiroth simply does not want to die. For that, he needs Jenovah's power to go into space to hop from planet to planet like she did. IMHO, that's the chapter 18 Sephiroth's goal. Otherwise he's stuck and no matter how much he managed to remain as himself, he will still die.

Red13 in chapter 18 harbinger battle after seeing a vision of himself and his Cubs running says “[this is a glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today]” which implies something sorta different: that the whispers aren’t trying to destroy the planet but only humankind. Confusing. Maybe then the corrupted Whispers are just tasked to kill humanity only, not to destroy the world. Does this mean that “end of the world” is only the end of humankind? I’m starting to think so. I add that Jenova doesn’t want to end the world, but destroy [human?] life and therefore use the planet as a vessel to travel the cosmos and rule it.

The party is being manipulated into thinking that it's a bad ending. However from memory, humanity also survives - there are kids' laughters and patches that show that humankind is still alive, albeit more connected to nature like the Cetras once were. This is the good ending, but they're manipulated into thinking it's the bad ending.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, let's break that conversation from the game down.

(official English localization)
Tifa: Like capital D... "Destiny"?
Red XIII: The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion.
Tifa: And you're saying that that flow is somehow...fixed?
Red XIII: Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself.
Barret: So if we're destined for a bleak future, these Whispers will try to keep us on that course?
---

(Japanese)
Tifa: "うんめい"って 運命？
Red XIII: この星が生まれて 消えるまでの流れ
Tifa: その流れは もう決っている そういうこと？
Red XIII: ああ 星は力尽きてしまうらしい
Barret: んな 真っ暗な未来に向かってオレたちを送り込むのか フィーラーはよ
---

(my translation of the Japanese)
Tifa: "Like 'Destiny' destiny?"
Red XIII: "In other words, the flow of this planet from its birth to its extinguishing."
Tifa: "That flow has already been decided -- is that right?"
Red XIII: "Yes. Apparently the planet will burn out."
Barret: "So, the Whispers will point us to a bleak end in the future ...?"
---

Final Theory:
The Whispers are the voices of the planet tasked to influence destiny but are tortured by mako overuse and Jenova infecting them. Gaia is not evil, nor are the Whispers, and does not want humanity nor itself to die, but is being clouded and smothered by mako-overuse and Jenova’s stigma. Because Gaia is good, This is why the whispers were supposed to be golden in color (as per Nomura) but instead look like robed figures in lieu of Jenova. Sephiroth is against Jenova’s plan and influence and has something else in mind, which is perhaps more evil and ambitious than before. This is why at the Edge of Creation he uses the personal pronouns that imply he is more “himself” and no longer fully influenced by Jenova, but rather in control of her. He even “swiped away” the purple cage that surrounded him in the last battle. Jenova had infected both the Harbinger and Sephiroth, but now with the Harbinger destroyed, Sephiroth is free and in control. In fact, you could say Sephiroth is now the Harbinger of destiny.

am I accurate here?

I don't believe so, no. You could be correct, but my impression is the same as what @Eerie shared: that our protagonists don't realize that the Red-XIII-with-cubs/Midgar-reclaimed-by-nature visions are the happy ending that has already happened -- and a happy ending it was, as humans are in fact still around 500 years later and the planet seemingly healthy and vibrant again.

In other words, utilizing his knowledge of the future, Seph has guided/manipulated Cloud and the others into defeating the Whispers and potentially undoing the planet's once-fated victory over Sephiroth and Jenova. He hijacked the theatre projection in the Shin-Ra building to show Cloud, Barret, and Tifa a horrific vision for the future, planting a seed of dread about the future in their minds. It's only to be expected that they would then conflate that apocalyptic vision of Meteor destroying Midgar with the Whispers or with any visions from them, as the protagonists see the Whispers as adversaries as much as they see Sephiroth as an enemy. After all, the Whispers interfered with the team's attempt to stop a previous disaster at Sector 7 -- which you'll recall Cloud also got to experience a premonition of.

Aerith may or may not be aware that they have undermined a guaranteed good ending, while for whatever reason believing it's worth the risk to potentially arrive at an even better future (e.g. one where Meteor is never cast; geostigma is never a thing; maybe Aerith herself doesn't die; etc.) -- but Cloud, Red XIII, etc. most certainly believed the Whispers were guiding them and the planet to a bad ending rather than a good one. I'm pretty confident the truth there is that they simply got fooled into assisting Sephiroth.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Damn it, you just explained easy as pie what I've been thinking all this time and have a difficult time putting into clean and expressive words myself!
Still could be sumarized as...
Well maybe not exactly what I had in mind. Should have read more carefully.

Sephiroth
"Haha! You fools, keep working for me! My new Fateing machine goes brrr!!"

Always yours truly.

 

[rkss]

now why does it feel like I'm reading jojo part 6

 

[Cae Lumis]

@ultima786 Question: can I have a source on Nomura saying the Whispers are supposed to be Golden? I don't remember reading that particular piece of information, but it could've slipped under my radar.

 

[Smoothie King]

So, let's break that conversation from the game down.

(official English localization)
Tifa: Like capital D... "Destiny"?
Red XIII: The flow of the great river that is the planet, from inception to oblivion.
Tifa: And you're saying that that flow is somehow...fixed?
Red XIII: Yes. For it is the will of the planet itself.
Barret: So if we're destined for a bleak future, these Whispers will try to keep us on that course?
---

(Japanese)
Tifa: "うんめい"って 運命？
Red XIII: この星が生まれて 消えるまでの流れ
Tifa: その流れは もう決っている そういうこと？
Red XIII: ああ 星は力尽きてしまうらしい
Barret: んな 真っ暗な未来に向かってオレたちを送り込むのか フィーラーはよ
---

(my translation of the Japanese)
Tifa: "Like 'Destiny' destiny?"
Red XIII: "In other words, the flow of this planet from its birth to its extinguishing."
Tifa: "That flow has already been decided -- is that right?"
Red XIII: "Yes. Apparently the planet will burn out."
Barret: "So, the Whispers will point us to a bleak end in the future ...?"
---



I don't believe so, no. You could be correct, but my impression is the same as what @Eerie shared: that our protagonists don't realize that the Red-XIII-with-cubs/Midgar-reclaimed-by-nature visions are the happy ending that has already happened -- and a happy ending it was, as humans are in fact still around 500 years later and the planet seemingly healthy and vibrant again.

In other words, utilizing his knowledge of the future, Seph has guided/manipulated Cloud and the others into defeating the Whispers and potentially undoing the planet's once-fated victory over Sephiroth and Jenova. He hijacked the theatre projection in the Shin-Ra building to show Cloud, Barret, and Tifa a horrific vision for the future, planting a seed of dread about the future in their minds. It's only to be expected that they would then conflate that apocalyptic vision of Meteor destroying Midgar with the Whispers or with any visions from them, as the protagonists see the Whispers as adversaries as much as they see Sephiroth as an enemy. After all, the Whispers interfered with the team's attempt to stop a previous disaster at Sector 7 -- which you'll recall Cloud also got to experience a premonition of.

Aerith may or may not be aware that they have undermined a guaranteed good ending, while for whatever reason believing it's worth the risk to potentially arrive at an even better future (e.g. one where Meteor is never cast; geostigma is never a thing; maybe Aerith herself doesn't die; etc.) -- but Cloud, Red XIII, etc. most certainly believed the Whispers were guiding them and the planet to a bad ending rather than a good one. I'm pretty confident the truth there is that they simply got fooled into assisting Sephiroth.

Tremendous freaking post here.

 

[ultima786]

Yes, the Whispers are Weapons. There is one that we fight that is named Emerald Whisper in chapter 18.

Do you mind linking a source for where we fought something called Emerald Whisper? I don't remember that...

The party is being manipulated into thinking that it's a bad ending. However from memory, humanity also survives - there are kids' laughters and patches that show that humankind is still alive, albeit more connected to nature like the Cetras once were. This is the good ending, but they're manipulated into thinking it's the bad ending.

Ok, but this is also a theory and speculation. So you disagree only because you want to believe a different theory. That's fine of course. I was just assuming the FF7OG ending was "bad" because Kitase explicitly said so...

​

EGM: At the very end of FFVII, we see the epilogue to the whole story that takes place 500 years later, so really, you still have another 497 years' worth of games and movies to fill in....​

YK: Ha, maybe I'll try to do that. In a way, I consider that epilogue to be the true happy ending of FFVII. Well, it's a happy ending even though all the human beings are destroyed. [Laughs]​

​

​

​

You could be correct, but my impression is the same as what @Eerie shared: that our protagonists don't realize that the Red-XIII-with-cubs/Midgar-reclaimed-by-nature visions are the happy ending that has already happened -- and a happy ending it was, as humans are in fact still around 500 years later and the planet seemingly healthy and vibrant again.

See above. I respect these takes but also feel like they are making assumptions. Also, I simply took Red13 at his word, since he appears to be a smart dude, and he was clearly implying that vision was bad. But I guess you are saying even Red13 was tricked. But so was Kitase? lol

After all, the Whispers interfered with the team's attempt to stop a previous disaster at Sector 7 -- which you'll recall Cloud also got to experience a premonition of.

I'm not sure if this tells us much. Barret was also saved by those same Whispers. On the Highway, Red13 explains that they are neutral in preserving the flow of destiny.

I'm pretty confident the truth there is that they simply got fooled into assisting Sephiroth.

It just seems like a silly thing for Aerith to do... she seems to understand more than to simply be duped? Based on my theory, there are actually 2 nemeses to the party. One is Sephiroth. The other is the Planet. But argue the Planet is only such because she has become corrupted.

@ultima786 Question: can I have a source on Nomura saying the Whispers are supposed to be Golden? I don't remember reading that particular piece of information, but it could've slipped under my radar.

I think I may have understood incorrectly. I should have said "Sandy", but I'm not sure if sandy in color or just in texture or perhaps both. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/hvp3kt/_/fyumh0v

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kitase was joking when he said that. Humanity clearly doesn't die 500 years later.

That's not theory or speculation. That's straight out of Advent Children's opening. People are living in the naturally reclaimed Midgar.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Do you mind linking a source for where we fought something called Emerald Whisper? I don't remember that...

I'm pretty sure that's Whisper Viridi in English. Where they don't have gem names. They have Latin color names. And the various fighting styles/weapons of the "colored" Whispers correspond to the fighting styles/weapons of the Remnants in ACC...

 

[ultima786]

Kitase was joking when he said that. Humanity clearly doesn't die 500 years later.

Sorry, what is your evidence that is humanity clearly doesn’t die? I think it’s more obvious that it’s ambiguous... maybe they are laughing within the Promised land. I think it’s less of an assumption to take the words of Kitase as they are. How do you know he’s joking?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Advent Children script and subsequent materials states clearly humanity exists 500 years later, and is living on the planet. Again, that was just Kitase's morbid sense of humor.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Nomura (and probably Nojima) were never for the idea that humanity all died out. Advent Chidren was the movie they directed (Nomura) and wrote the script for (Nojima). And the script definetly says humanity is living in Midgar still underneath all the plant growth.

However, all three of them are really responsible for the story of FFVII. It's... really hard to say any one of them calls the shots for *everything* in FFVII. So we're kinda left with what is presented in the games/works. Which last time anyone checked was that humanity was doing just fine 500 years after FFVII.

 

[ultima786]

So if we assume that Red13's 500 years later vision was a world with humanity and life is good or whatever … what exactly is bad about it, as per the party? Like what are they looking at that convinces them, "Ooh that's bad?"

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Probably the destroyed Midgard without context. It would be like seeing a destoryed New York or Tokyo or London. It means huge changes have happened. And there's no handy "500 years later" scrolling across the screen for them. We also don't seen Red XIII or his cubs in Remake.

Simply put, they are missing a lot of information and context that makes it a "good ending".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So if we assume that Red13's 500 years later vision was a world with humanity and life is good or whatever … what exactly is bad about it, as per the party? Like what are they looking at that convinces them, "Ooh that's bad?"

Sephiroth showed them an illusion of Meteor wrecking Midgar, then they're shown a separate vision later of a destroyed Midgar -- but as Obsidian said, without context. The natural conclusion would be "these visions are connected, and this is bad."

It just seems like a silly thing for Aerith to do... she seems to understand more than to simply be duped?

She probably wasn't tricked. She's not telling the others everything she knows or suspects, at least not in any particular detail. She knew there would be enormous ramifications if they responded to Sephiroth's challenge to follow him and confront the Whispers, but she either didn't know the specifics or withheld them.

At any rate, for whatever reason, she decided they should take the invitation.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Sometimes I like to joke about the Nanaki Jrs. laughing over humankind's extintion. Tis always fun, even if obviously not what was intended.

But I think it's still too early to tell (at least to me) if highway Seph comes from the future (whatever OG ending, ACC, or post DoC),
OR if it's the same current-time OG Sephiroth we know (but incarnated in a new way) which happens to be trying to rewrite the Planet's Will or Fate,
OR if it even really is Seph and not something else (Jenova, the Planet, Genesis from post DoC lol).
And I think the same about Aerith. What does she know really? Why does she know whatever she may know?

STILL TOO EARLY.

Kitase
"Oh yes! Look at those fans all confused creating wild theories!"

Nomura
"Did you bring popcorns, Nojima?"

Nojima
"Sorry. Too busy writing X-3 even as we speak."

Toriyama
"You jest, lazy man!"