It's been almost ten years since a new numbered title was announced
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
XV is an enormously different game than it was initially. That's not debatable in the slightest.
It's also altogether misleading to characterize the main game as taking 92 hours while saying the DLC take only 24. Plenty of players beat the main game in less than 20 hours (while not doing anything but main quests) while I have well beyond 100 hours in just one of the DLC.
So yeah, the cumulative DLC and updates/tweaks to the main game easily doubles the time a player could reasonably be expected to put into the game, if not the amount of content as well. It's just straight up a vastly different product.
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@Obsidian Fire
Yeah, all the things you bring up are why I say XIV employs the trope to a limited extent. Hydaelyn and The Twelve are legitimately benevolent as far as we know, while the Primals (worshipped by some) aren't necessarily -- though, as you say, they aren't legitimate gods so much as manifested cultural constructs like FFIX's Eidolons.
Zodiark, meanwhile, is apparently malevolent, and his agents, the Ascians, are the closest thing to a supreme semi-mortal/somewhat divine mystical authority in the setting -- as best I understand it anyway.
It's also altogether misleading to characterize the main game as taking 92 hours while saying the DLC take only 24. Plenty of players beat the main game in less than 20 hours (while not doing anything but main quests) while I have well beyond 100 hours in just one of the DLC.
So yeah, the cumulative DLC and updates/tweaks to the main game easily doubles the time a player could reasonably be expected to put into the game, if not the amount of content as well. It's just straight up a vastly different product.
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@Obsidian Fire
Yeah, all the things you bring up are why I say XIV employs the trope to a limited extent. Hydaelyn and The Twelve are legitimately benevolent as far as we know, while the Primals (worshipped by some) aren't necessarily -- though, as you say, they aren't legitimate gods so much as manifested cultural constructs like FFIX's Eidolons.
Zodiark, meanwhile, is apparently malevolent, and his agents, the Ascians, are the closest thing to a supreme semi-mortal/somewhat divine mystical authority in the setting -- as best I understand it anyway.
Ite
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- Ite
You are describing nearly every AAA game released since 2006. Mass Effect, Witcher, Skyrim, GTA, No Man’s Sky, every MMO ever, all benefit from (if not require) waiting 2-5 years after release to play. It’s patched to completion, the DLC is included and the whole thing is 50% off.
Cthulhu
Administrator
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- Yop
Digging into my own memory here, correct me if I'm wrong again:
* ME was good until ME3, where they botched up the ending and had to tack on a DLC to resolve most of the issues. Did they replace the whole ending or just tack something on? IDK, afaik they didn't do much to the base game - which IMO was fine, but then, I only played it well after the necessary patching.
* Witcher 1 had pretty much a full rebuild IIRC, to make it, you know, an actual game
. The dev team behind the Witcher games seems (seemed?) to have a very much "heck at 50 years of game engine development, we'll do our own! yeet!". I don't recall anything major being done to Witcher 2 or 3.
* Skyrim is still shit,
* GTA... don't recall anything happening there; GTA 5's singleplayer hasn't been touched at all as far as I know. Neither has its multiplayer, in that it hasn't gotten any major content but keeps raking in dankloads of money. But, I haven't heard much from it so correct me if I'm wrong and if they actually did add more heists and shit in there.
* NMS was... an overhyped early access game which thanks to having a lot of money they could still keep developing on for another three years to finish it.
There's a number of recent examples that prove new games don't need 2-5 years of rework to finish. I struggled through FFXV and then went on to Horizon, which honestly felt like a relief. What was changed in that game after release? As far as I can tell, just one DLC, that's it. More recently I played through God of War, also nothing wrong with that, has that gotten any patches at all?
What's the difference between SE and Sony / Guerilla / Santa Monica? They all have dankloads of money, I don't see why SE would get a pass on delivering a substandard and late product when there's other studios that are able to announce and publish a complete, functioning, good looking, critically acclaimed game in the current console generation.
* ME was good until ME3, where they botched up the ending and had to tack on a DLC to resolve most of the issues. Did they replace the whole ending or just tack something on? IDK, afaik they didn't do much to the base game - which IMO was fine, but then, I only played it well after the necessary patching.
* Witcher 1 had pretty much a full rebuild IIRC, to make it, you know, an actual game
. The dev team behind the Witcher games seems (seemed?) to have a very much "heck at 50 years of game engine development, we'll do our own! yeet!". I don't recall anything major being done to Witcher 2 or 3.* Skyrim is still shit,
* GTA... don't recall anything happening there; GTA 5's singleplayer hasn't been touched at all as far as I know. Neither has its multiplayer, in that it hasn't gotten any major content but keeps raking in dankloads of money. But, I haven't heard much from it so correct me if I'm wrong and if they actually did add more heists and shit in there.
* NMS was... an overhyped early access game which thanks to having a lot of money they could still keep developing on for another three years to finish it.
There's a number of recent examples that prove new games don't need 2-5 years of rework to finish. I struggled through FFXV and then went on to Horizon, which honestly felt like a relief. What was changed in that game after release? As far as I can tell, just one DLC, that's it. More recently I played through God of War, also nothing wrong with that, has that gotten any patches at all?
What's the difference between SE and Sony / Guerilla / Santa Monica? They all have dankloads of money, I don't see why SE would get a pass on delivering a substandard and late product when there's other studios that are able to announce and publish a complete, functioning, good looking, critically acclaimed game in the current console generation.
Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
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- Lulcy
But XV was a complete product, good looking, functional & stable and positively recibed product (unless we're now of those guys that anything below 9/10 is dumpster fire), the base game had over 90hs of content and story with beginning-middle-end. You not liking the product doesnt make it not complete.
Mmm no. There's definetly content that needed to be in the game from day one and ended up as other content. It's not good quality at all.
Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
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- Lulcy
Like what exactly?
The entire sacking of Insomnia for one thing. It's the heaviest emotional drive of the game, and it's just merely news article in the game.
All of the character episodes are pretty important. There were a lot of gameplay tweaks that were needed as well.
Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
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- Lulcy
But Insomnia is playable in base vanilla game so I don't see the issue.
The character DLCs only tells you their small adventure during their absence in the party but are not crucial for the story of XV (aka Noctis' story).
The gameplay tweaks were nice and welcomed QoL but how exactly where they absolute (not literal) gamebreaking needs?
The character DLCs only tells you their small adventure during their absence in the party but are not crucial for the story of XV (aka Noctis' story).
The gameplay tweaks were nice and welcomed QoL but how exactly where they absolute (not literal) gamebreaking needs?
Given how short the story campaign is, every little bit counts.
You seem to have a really straight and narrow view on these matters, so I don't think we're ever going to find common ground on these matters.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Sorry, but I gotta call BS on this.
The DLC episodes were more than just "small adventures" during their absence.
In one chapter Ignis is able to function all by himself and see.
Immediately in the next chapter, you wake up as Noctis, and Ignis is blind, with a cane, can't cook and everyone hates you for it.
The whiplash and confusion by that sudden development was more than just a "small adventure." It literally made no sense at all with NO explanation as to how or why he was suddenly stricken blind.
Gladiolus fucks off randomly and comes back all scarred up.
Prompto falls off a train and then you find him chained up later on.
Immediately in the next chapter, you wake up as Noctis, and Ignis is blind, with a cane, can't cook and everyone hates you for it.
The whiplash and confusion by that sudden development was more than just a "small adventure." It literally made no sense at all with NO explanation as to how or why he was suddenly stricken blind.
Gladiolus fucks off randomly and comes back all scarred up.
Prompto falls off a train and then you find him chained up later on.
Like... No. Those aren't "little adventures." There's a reason why the Royal Edition included those 3 episodes for free. Because they're critical to the game. I can get why people would be pissed at having to purchase them separately before. Episode Ignis is extremely heavy and relevant to the story. The Royal Edition adding these episodes as part of the total package acknowledges and fixes this.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
Yes, it was all of those things, and I at the very least am not disagreeing about that. You were disputing, though, whether all the updates and DLC have offered up double the content or created an essentially different experience.
I'm an avid fan of XpertThief's YouTube channel, so my assessment on this stems just from watching his hundreds of GTA videos over the past several years -- but I have to say fuck yeah, they've added a lot.
Tetsujin
he/they
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- Tets
Bloated with BS is how the game got to 90+ hours
The story is absolutely smaller in scale than many previous FF games. The majority of the side content is standard issue open world fetch quest content
I'm absolutely confused about what your criteria for BS is when you rate XV so highly
Makoeyes987
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I definitely don't think XV's story is BS by any stretch, but if you're not a fan of "open-world" type games, and stories that utilize free range type of storytelling in the game, then yeah. You're not going to find the expansive landscapes you have to traverse all the time that enjoyable or entertaining. It'll just look like a tiny ship afloat a sprawling, empty ocean of loosely tied together content. The optional side quests and hunts are fun because combat in FFXV is fun, but it's only fun as much as one finds those type of side quests fun in the first place.
If you don't find combat or battle challenges enjoyable in and of themselves, then a game that uses that as a means of sidequesting and expanding gameplay isn't going to be satisfying. It'll just be monotonous.
I don't mind games like FFXV at all, and I kinda don't see why anyone would since they're kinda what RPG'ing is all about. You go around, kill shit, grind shit, amass shit, and stat boost for the win. But seeing as how it's been done a lot, I guess there's genre fatigue; it has been done and done a lot in many other games. But I found FFXII as one of my favorites and I loved how expansive and in-depth the world of Ivalice was and completing the bestiary and sage knowledge entries were like the best thing ever. You could get lost seeing everything Ivalice had to offer and just going from zone to zone, chain-building and treasure hunting while hunting elite marks and taking down enemies for randoms with problems that only you could fix.
But if a more structured, linear experience is what people want, then FFXV is going to be considered just a sprawling mess. I mean, I get it. Some prefer that. But I feel it strips my choices and ability to enjoy what I want to do when I want to do it. I like being able to just pause the story and get lost doing anything I want, when I want while pursuing whatever I want til I get bored and decide to do the plot again. That freedom is far more enjoyable than just being pushed to get through the plot by external pressures that limit me in my gameplay.
If you don't find combat or battle challenges enjoyable in and of themselves, then a game that uses that as a means of sidequesting and expanding gameplay isn't going to be satisfying. It'll just be monotonous.
I don't mind games like FFXV at all, and I kinda don't see why anyone would since they're kinda what RPG'ing is all about. You go around, kill shit, grind shit, amass shit, and stat boost for the win. But seeing as how it's been done a lot, I guess there's genre fatigue; it has been done and done a lot in many other games. But I found FFXII as one of my favorites and I loved how expansive and in-depth the world of Ivalice was and completing the bestiary and sage knowledge entries were like the best thing ever. You could get lost seeing everything Ivalice had to offer and just going from zone to zone, chain-building and treasure hunting while hunting elite marks and taking down enemies for randoms with problems that only you could fix.
But if a more structured, linear experience is what people want, then FFXV is going to be considered just a sprawling mess. I mean, I get it. Some prefer that. But I feel it strips my choices and ability to enjoy what I want to do when I want to do it. I like being able to just pause the story and get lost doing anything I want, when I want while pursuing whatever I want til I get bored and decide to do the plot again. That freedom is far more enjoyable than just being pushed to get through the plot by external pressures that limit me in my gameplay.
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I prefer intimate, character driven games. I need to feel like there's a reason to give a damn for the world at large, and usually NPCs aren't going to cut it. So it comes down to the characters and their wants/needs. And XV is kinda...lacking in that. It's really hard to feel any pressure or stakes in XV because the game is way more concerned with everything EXCEPT for the plot. At a certain point I end up stopping and thinking "...what is the point of any of this?" and get frustrated.
Makoeyes987
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I mean, I guess that's the trade off you get with a free and open world type game. You can get lost and so removed from the plot you can forget why it even exists. 
See, I like those type of games but I'm also heavily gameplay driven so I feel stuck and annoyed at being limited if I'm prevented at going somewhere I want, when I want. It's why I was annoyed with FFXIII so much. And while I enjoyed it for what it was and love the plot, I breathed a sigh of relief upon making it to Pulse and being able to just do shit at my leisure. Harassing Adamantoises was my idea of fun and profit.
Like FFXV's fun for me was driving the Regalia all over the place and just listening to past FF songs, pulling over, and then killing whatever shit I see that strikes my interest. Oh, and hearing the hilarious dialogue between everyone.
Or... Purposefully wandering at night to see how hard the daemons are in an area and then seeing Aranea swoop down and help out.
Ironically, FFXV got irritating and less enjoyable when the story suddenly thrusted itself in my face, turned linear, hit fast forward on the plot progression, and I suddenly fucking found myself at the end of the game faster than I thought it was possible in an FF game. That was ironically when I got the most pissed off and frustrated at the game. The game switching gears THAT fast left me with whiplash and irritation at being robbed of my freedom and expectations
Honestly out of all the FFs I think FFVI, FFVII, and FFVIII were the most balanced in freedom of gameplay and keeping you constrained just enough by the plot to make sure you didn't forget what you were fighting for.
See, I like those type of games but I'm also heavily gameplay driven so I feel stuck and annoyed at being limited if I'm prevented at going somewhere I want, when I want. It's why I was annoyed with FFXIII so much. And while I enjoyed it for what it was and love the plot, I breathed a sigh of relief upon making it to Pulse and being able to just do shit at my leisure. Harassing Adamantoises was my idea of fun and profit.
Like FFXV's fun for me was driving the Regalia all over the place and just listening to past FF songs, pulling over, and then killing whatever shit I see that strikes my interest. Oh, and hearing the hilarious dialogue between everyone.
Or... Purposefully wandering at night to see how hard the daemons are in an area and then seeing Aranea swoop down and help out.
Ironically, FFXV got irritating and less enjoyable when the story suddenly thrusted itself in my face, turned linear, hit fast forward on the plot progression, and I suddenly fucking found myself at the end of the game faster than I thought it was possible in an FF game. That was ironically when I got the most pissed off and frustrated at the game. The game switching gears THAT fast left me with whiplash and irritation at being robbed of my freedom and expectations
Honestly out of all the FFs I think FFVI, FFVII, and FFVIII were the most balanced in freedom of gameplay and keeping you constrained just enough by the plot to make sure you didn't forget what you were fighting for.
Tetsujin
he/they
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- Tets
Yeah the story ain't bloated, it's meager imo. Previous games felt like sprawling, epic adventures that had you go through a variety of scenarios. More than half of FFXV's story is just fetch quests.
-go get money to repair your car
-learn about epic shit that happened off screen. Watch the movie for this one.
-go get royal arms
-go get a summon (at least results in a huge setpiece battle)
-go get another summon
-dude, where's my car? go get the car
-go get a few more royal arms or something
-finally it's time to go to Altissia. No wait, boat's broken. Go get boat materials.
-you reach Altissia.
By that time, you're about 2/3rds through the game and the plot can be summarized as "go here, get that"
And when the plot fast forwards through actual stuff happening after Altissia, it still manages to throw in another "get a royal arm".
I dunno, but I feel even FFX which relied quite a bit on "go get summons" had more interesting shit happen inbetween.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
... Oh man...That made me fucking LOL.
But yeah, in the end, FFXV is kinda a product of how you imagine how epic the quest of the story to be. Because it's as big as you want to make it with what you choose to fill in the gaps with questing. I personally don't find "fetching" a problem. I mean, in the end, that's how most things are in RPGs, isn't it? Like, yeah if you distill it to its basic concepts, that's what it is.
But isn't a journey to save the world, all the fetch quests and experience you gain along the way?
However, yeah it's pretty obvious how staggered the game is with its plot when the game shifts gears upon reaching Altissia.
You suddenly go from feeling like you're on a chill, yet awesome Final Fantasy road trip and then suddenly the world starts ending, night falls forever, and you're fucking suddenly trapped in a huge ass dungeon with only a ring to keep you company.
Like it's jarring as hell.
But I loved the freedom of it all. And the dungeons were awesomely done. Even... The horrible platforming hell known as Pitoiss.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
FFXV's mode of storytelling makes a lot of sense when you take it as a response to people's criticism's of FFXIII. From the sound of it, the plots have their linear portions and open-world portions swapped. FFXIII has the linear portion be the majority of the story and the open-world portion is the end of the game (since you can't fully level up everyone until after you defeat the final boss the first time). FFXV has all the majority of the story be open-world until the last section where it gets super linear.
I feel like the better FF games have the linear and open-world portions not regulated to one specific time in the narrative, but switch between linear and open-world many times. FFVII lets you explore most of Midgar until Cloud and Co. go to Shinra Tower and then it gets very linear for all of Shinra Tower. FFVIII has that same type of switching going on where Squall and Co. can pretty much go anywhere until they try to kill Edea and then have a long linear section in Galbadia Prison.
Ironically, I think FF games do better when they act like they are faux-MMOs where no matter what happens in the story, the player needs the freedom to go pretty much anywhere even if it doesn't make that much sense to the plot (chocobo breeding/racing while Meteor is falling). It's when FF games forget that they are faux-MMOs for too long that they start to feel confining.
I feel like the better FF games have the linear and open-world portions not regulated to one specific time in the narrative, but switch between linear and open-world many times. FFVII lets you explore most of Midgar until Cloud and Co. go to Shinra Tower and then it gets very linear for all of Shinra Tower. FFVIII has that same type of switching going on where Squall and Co. can pretty much go anywhere until they try to kill Edea and then have a long linear section in Galbadia Prison.
Ironically, I think FF games do better when they act like they are faux-MMOs where no matter what happens in the story, the player needs the freedom to go pretty much anywhere even if it doesn't make that much sense to the plot (chocobo breeding/racing while Meteor is falling). It's when FF games forget that they are faux-MMOs for too long that they start to feel confining.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Oh I definitely see FFXV's style is a direct response to FFXIII's criticisms. Oh yes.
Hell, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns were a response to that too. If you notice, S-E's made sure to never make a linear type of game like XIII again after the complaints that were made for that game.
And I appreciate that a lot. I loved XIII and its cast in the end but I never want to go through a game where the only company I get to keep are my playable party and fucking petrified stones of sorrow and regret I run into later on.
This. So much.
This is what ideally I would want in a future Final Fantasy because this is the perfect mix. By keeping the game going with both styles of gameplay, you have variety and breathers with the story.
I want the freedom to play how I want to play, but also still feel connected to the narrative.
But not too connected. What can I say, I don't like feeling trapped
Hell, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns were a response to that too. If you notice, S-E's made sure to never make a linear type of game like XIII again after the complaints that were made for that game.
And I appreciate that a lot. I loved XIII and its cast in the end but I never want to go through a game where the only company I get to keep are my playable party and fucking petrified stones of sorrow and regret I run into later on.
This. So much.
This is what ideally I would want in a future Final Fantasy because this is the perfect mix. By keeping the game going with both styles of gameplay, you have variety and breathers with the story.
I want the freedom to play how I want to play, but also still feel connected to the narrative.
But not too connected. What can I say, I don't like feeling trapped