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Joker

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#1

I knew basically nothing about this going into the teaser. I was initially VERY hesitant about the sympathetic angle, because of how a lot of people are overly forgiving towards his actions (esp. with him & Harley) – but I really like that they're leaning more in on the criminally insane angle which also helps give context to why Batman always makes a point of having them put away.

The tone dark, broken, and tragic tone is REALLY damn good in this trailer, and the other part equation is that it is meant to feel like a Martin Scorsese film which takes the general comic book tone out a little bit and plays more closely to just good cinematic storytelling, and I think that there's a possibility that it could be properly amazing.




X :neo:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#2
That trailer looked very impressive. I wasn't sure about Joaquin Phoenix when I heard the rumor way back he was replacing Leto but... I think this guy has the magic to bring life to the Joker role not seen since Heath Ledger's take.

....But, again I'm left wondering what WB is even doing with their DC Cinematic Universe. Was it cancelled? Because that's what I heard they were gonna do when they pursued this project. Which is really a shame. All they'd have to do is add this level of talent and cinematic weight to their movies instead of trying to copy how Marvel did their Cinematic Universe.
 

ChipNoir

Internet Ghost
AKA
Mister Spooks.
#3
I don't view this as sympathetic by glorifying the Joker, but more in the way that Clockwork Orange portrays Alex as the protagonist. Complex, refined, but ultimately a bad person who horrible things happen to in order to show readers that punishing "Villains" handled as humans isn't always that satisfying.

I don't think this movie is going to justify his actions, so much as show what the world can do to a person, and the kind of monster it can create. The Joker in ANY incarnation is a product of his surroundings.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#4
That trailer looked very impressive. I wasn't sure about Joaquin Phoenix when I heard the rumor way back he was replacing Leto but...
He didn't precisely replace him, though. Joaquin's Joker is supposed to be a separate character in a different continuity.

Of course, given that Leto no longer seems to be involved with the DC films franchise(s?) -- and almost certainly won't be again -- that could change.
 

ChipNoir

Internet Ghost
AKA
Mister Spooks.
#5
He didn't precisely replace him, though. Joaquin's Joker is supposed to be a separate character in a different continuity.

Of course, given that Leto no longer seems to be involved with the DC films franchise(s?) -- and almost certainly won't be again -- that could change.
Is it now? The style of the city shown, and the look of Joker here, I assumed that they were retconning this into the Dark Knight continuity.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#6
He didn't precisely replace him, though. Joaquin's Joker is supposed to be a separate character in a different continuity.
That's not at all confusing and making the DC Cinematic Universe more of a clusterfuck at all :mon:

It's almost as if WB wants to sabotage their film endeavors by making the most bizarre choices possible. Regardless, I hope this film is good. I'd like to see a great Joker again.

Of course, given that Leto no longer seems to be involved with the DC films franchise(s?) -- and almost certainly won't be again -- that could change.
LOL, I wonder why...
 
#7
This looks like a good film, but it also seems like it veers towards sympathy towards Mr J a bit too much for me.

Leto was a fine Joker, but he was one that could never carry a whole film. Which was fine with me. He was needed for Harley's backstory and that was enough.

I wish WB was better at sticking to its guns, though.
 
#8
I think Joker is one character who shouldn't have an origin story, or at least it should be unclear. I really liked how Nolan's Dark Knight movie portrayed him in that regard. I think I'd enjoy this movie more if I pretend it wasn't related to the DC character, and just some random clown with weird mother relations who goes mad from being treated like shit. My favourite bit of the trailer was probably the "I used to think my life was a tragedy, but now I realise it is a comedy" line. Up there with the best :P.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#13
I did want to mention that there are a lot of "don't glorify the villains" articles going around, but I also want to point out that literally the ENTIRE POINT of most of Batman's rogues gallery and Batman being someone who doesn't kill criminals is that he feels like they all have an opportunity where they could be reformed and rehabilitated, and that being believable in Joker is basically the entire crux of their rivalry, where Joker always believes that he can turn Batman to the dark like him, and Batman always believes that he can even save the Joker from his darkness.

I'm looking forward to seeing the film and seeing if this is the general sense that they're trying to portray with the character, or if it's something else, but I genuinely think that a lot of the shock and outrage articles are just clickbait who are missing the point of telling a story like this about the Joker.




X :neo:
 
#17
Just saw it.

It's more about how society is degrading as a whole, and the people at the bottom of the social structure suffer first. Joker's a result of a lifetime of ignorance, refusal to think of other people as having their own issues they're dealing with, and systems designed to help people with problems being nothing more than a pr stunt essentially, rather than actually trying to help.

P.S. Fuck the guy in my theatre that laughed at every lil thing (intentionally funny or not) and checked his phone every 15 min

Edit: Josh Brolin on Joker, no spoilers:

Screenshot_20191006-073426_Twitter.jpg
 
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#18
Yeeeah. I saw it and didn't like it. There were good bits, sure, but some of the major story bits just weren't earnt, seemed contrived, and/or were tell and no show, which ruined the rest for me. Also, we had to see Bruce's parents die again. Lol.

2.4/5 stars. I figure if your expectations are low you might enjoy the film more :mon:.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#19
Just saw it.

It's more about how society is degrading as a whole, and the people at the bottom of the social structure suffer first. Joker's a result of a lifetime of ignorance, refusal to think of other people as having their own issues they're dealing with, and systems designed to help people with problems being nothing more than a pr stunt essentially, rather than actually trying to help.

P.S. Fuck the guy in my theatre that laughed at every lil thing (intentionally funny or not) and checked his phone every 15 min

Edit: Josh Brolin on Joker, no spoilers:

View attachment 4155
Seen a lot of people talk about this movie, Brolin is the first person to make me want to see it now. Still don't like them Trumpifing Dr. Thomas Wayne.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#23
I feel like that video gets WWWAAAYYY hung up on the 1980's aesthetic and is missing the forest for the trees multiple times. He completely misses the point in the exact same way when he says that, "We actually do know why the kids at Columbine did it, because they made videos and wrote it down in journals beforehand." He is answering the totally wrong WHY for the point that Michael Moore is making, which also makes the whole video almost feels like willful ignorance in an attempt to reinforce his own views about the film, rather than understanding what someone else is saying and dissecting it.

One of the biggest points of the film is that the social care systems that're in place aren't ACTUALLY there to care for people. They're there just to make people feel better about something being there. Arthur's social worker literally doesn't listen to him. Almost every individual in the film is centrally focused on, "you should feel pity for me because of my situation" which is true of his social worker, his mother, his co workers, his boss, him, and Murray, and everyone else. The pity that everyone – Thomas Wayne included – displays is ultimately a self-serving pity. That's why the central message of the film is that Joker didn't do this to become political and that he doesn't care about it at all. Ultimately he is the product of the failed systems inevitably leading to the uprising of violence, and then that violence embracing the catalyst as its leader, thereby taking someone disinterested in leading, but getting them drunk on the power and focused attention and relief that they get by lashing out.

THAT'S the "why" of Columbine that Michael Moore is getting at. How does America, one of the most wealthy first world countries on Earth, have such an utterly ineffective system for taking care of people who are in damaged and vulnerable places that the escalation to violence is so fucking commonplace.

Additionally, it's set in the 1980's because that's when the sort of police work and things like that would make sense, because in a modern setting, they'd've stopped him FAR more easily. Additionally, that also means that Batman would grow up to be Batman at around the time that those films were really big. Plus, Gotham has always been oddly anachronistic (blimps), so that's a good aesthetic for the film even without any of that surrounding context.

It's VERY much worth seeing and just thinking about. It does a good job of making the Arkham villains very much seem like they should be rehabilitated, and that doing that would be Batman's ultimate goal. Just that in and of itself is well worth it from a comics standpoint. From a film and storytelling standpoint, they do a good job of wandering you through the kind of trauma and stressors that exist for people that lead to problems that are inherently preventable.

But yeah. It's definitely one that's an emotional gut-punch to say the least. For me, I'd say that it's not quite as rough as A Scanner Darkly was for me, but it's definitely a close second in terms of thinking about someone trapped in a really messed up society.



X :neo:
 
#24
I'm going to have to apply my ignorant foreigner disclaimer here, because I know little about the social services in the States.

But:
The thing about all these 'failed by the system' movies that concerns me is the potential for vulnerable people to relate to them and so not seek what limited social services they desperately need. If films like this drive home a message 'no one cares about you' 'there's no way out' 'social services are worthless', some people may pick up on that and believe it, and so possibly not try to seek help that might actually be available that could be of real benefit. Is that really such a good outcome here? Lots of people are let down by the support systems, but they don't necessarily become spree killers, but that's the perspective we get, because it's the most cinematically dramatic. A film from the perspective of Arthur's neighbour doesn't sell tickets, but she needs support just as badly, or maybe more.

The contrast here is the likes of the Wire, which doesn't play down the corruption in Baltimore by any means, but also highlights the good work done by people in the system. And we need more of that story, where the answer is not violence.

I'm not dissing the film, per se, I just don't think it's this great dissertation on society.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#25
I think that it's quite the opposite – especially as someone who's recently moved from the US to Sweden, the difficulties in the health care system in the US are ones that are particularly prominent for me – especially since I've been dealing with the medical system quite a bit over the last several months.

It drives home the necessity for people to speak out about the gaps in the system, because the story about Joker isn't one that glorifies him or what he's done. Rather, it puts a spotlight on how he become something that he literally had no interest in and never wanted any part of in any way. He goes from being someone whose entire existence is focused around making other people smile despite his constant difficulties to someone who murders the person he looked up to for years when he finally makes it to the place that he wanted to be, where he had an audience that he'd always dreamed being a part of.

The film constantly underscores how important having those support systems in place are, but also the undeniable importance of empathy to exist in those systems as well. It's a story about exposing the dangerous rotting truth of what's there in a way that people can't ignore, and in America – that's a truth that gets constantly ignored and it's a message that needs to be understood. The people who're mentally unstable and go out murdering people they dislike don't just "happen" – they are a product of a system that's failed them and that desperately needs more attention.



X :neo:
 
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