Lucrecia's Portrayal In Dirge Of Cerberus

[The Twilight Mexican]

But, I admit that her looking pretty in the flashbacks and a big puss-y mess in the present in that crystal would've been pretty cool.

Totally read that wrong the first time around.

 

[Unlucky]

In the OG flashback of Vinny openly expressing his objection over the experiment, she bows her head quietly as Hojo did the talking. I took it as her being aware that it was morally wrong, but at that time couldn't feel guilty enough to step out of it. She was an ambitious scientist after all, and it was a big project that she willingly wanted to take part in.

I don't know if there's word of God about her feelings on it (in the OG canon) though, so that is merely an interpretation of mine. I could imagine just how much pain she felt afterwards when she grew a conscience, knowing that not only was she at fault, but that nobody would support her, given the nature of her working environment.

 

[jazzflower92]

In the OG flashback of Vinny openly expressing his objection over the experiment, she bows her head quietly as Hojo did the talking. I took it as her being aware that it was morally wrong, but at that time couldn't feel guilty enough to step out of it. She was an ambitious scientist after all, and it was a big project that she willingly wanted to take part in.

I don't know if there's word of God about her feelings on it (in the OG canon) though, so that is merely an interpretation of mine. I could imagine just how much pain she felt afterwards when she grew a conscience, knowing that not only was she at fault, but that nobody would support her, given the nature of her working environment.

Yeah, that sort of was my head cannon about the situation as well. The original reasons for Lucrecia choosing Hojo was a better explanation but then Square throws it all out in the name of making Vincent and Lucrecia's relationship even more dramatic. F.Y.I. to Square adding angst just to make things more tragic doesn't always work and comes off looking awkward plus poorly written. Plus good written angst makes people want to feel for the character instead of getting annoyed at how whiney they are.

Another thing I noted is the added flirting that Lucrecia did with Vincent when he was her bodyguard. I think it was to hint more to the fact that the attraction wasn't one sided when in the game we are told Lucrecia didn't return those feelings. Which fits into DOC's explanation for her choosing Hojo in order to make it so she tries to drive Vincent away from her even though she has feelings for him. Although the DOC version really puts her more in a selfish light than the original game. Instead of choosing Hojo because of some misplaced pity for him and probably to get recognized in the scientific community, she does this all because she can't face her troubles like a grown adult and hurtfully tries to push away the person who does care for her.

 

[Unlucky]

Again I'm not sure if there's official word on this, but judging from the DoC flashback it did seem that the only reason why she ran to Hojo was because she couldn't face Vincent after his discovery about her and Grimoire.

If it was ever confirmed that she chose Hojo for his credentials or to advance her career, selfish as it was, it would at least further support the idea that she put her ambition above all as her major flaw, just like in her decision to experiment on her child. Or as you said, if the maternal feelings/ misplaced pity for Hojo was presented then that would have shown a softer side to her than the over-acting, immature twat we saw in DoC. The Grimoire* subplot really hurt her character.

How the feck do you even pronounce this? Grim-wah? Grim-wire? What a stupid name.

 

[ForceStealer]

It is a word.

And I would say her lack remorse for experimenting on her child makes a strong case that going with Hojo was because of her ambition. (Which, again, doesn't mean it was without feeling. Just that ambition could drive her to find him attractive)

She was flirty, but didn't the FF7 flashback show she and Vincent walking close together, if not handin hand, talking?

 

[jazzflower92]

Again I'm not sure if there's official word on this, but judging from the DoC flashback it did seem that the only reason why she ran to Hojo was because she couldn't face Vincent after his discovery about her and Grimoire.

If it was ever confirmed that she chose Hojo for his credentials or to advance her career, selfish as it was, it would at least further support the idea that she put her ambition above all as her major flaw, just like in her decision to experiment on her child. Or as you said, if the maternal feelings/ misplaced pity for Hojo was presented then that would have shown a softer side to her than the over-acting, immature twat we saw in DoC. The Grimoire* subplot really hurt her character.

How the feck do you even pronounce this? Grim-wah? Grim-wire? What a stupid name.

Its the an angsty sounding name that the developers thought would make it sound appealing to the teenage crowd. Yeah, these days Square tries to amp up the drama too much that it comes off at a pathetic attempt at being mature.

The Grimoire subplot is like what you can find in those low rate trashy romance novels. Its really badly written and makes the character look unsympathetic. Funny enough Lucrecia sometimes reminds me of Bella from Twilight who shares a lot of her character flaws. She is immature, overacts, and gets herself into situations that put herself into danger. Plus most of all she strings along and hurts a guy she is close to because her self centeredness.

 

[ForceStealer]

Now you two are just being petulant. A grimoire is a book that "includes instructions on how to create magical objects... and how to summon or invoke supernatural entities such as... demons."

Grimoire Valentine was so named because he teaches Lucrecia about stagnant Lifestream how it can be used to invoke Chaos.

Also, the problem with your Twilight analogy is that the reader is supposed to sympathize with Bella. That is not the case for Lucrecia. Her desire to see and interact with her son is the only sympathetic part of her character and that was always the case.

 

[Unlucky]

She was flirty, but didn't the FF7 flashback show she and Vincent walking close together, if not handin hand, talking?

I think that was just Vinny gesturing as he was talking. But yeah they were walking close together.

Its the an angsty sounding name that the developers thought would make it sound appealing to the teenage crowd.

It doesn't sound angsty at all, it sounds really old. Fitting as it was though, I think it's a terrible name

Funny how in my home country, the name "Lucrecia" has become associated as being a crazy woman's name (loka-loka in my language )

 

[Super Mario]

Heck, if only she was shown to be a mature woman who stood by her ugly decisions firmly AND professionally, without exasperating, overly emotional dialogue, then her emotional breakdown when she was finally remorseful would have reflected how much it damaged her more effectively, and might have won her sympathy from fans.

basically, this woman:

How M supersedes Lucercia : Both women work on their field with a dedicated cause and many attempts have been made to make them unsympathetic under the pressure of the film/game and they made the same shitty mistakes (or similar). What makes M more of an understandable character than Lucrecia is she never breaks down and mans up to her problems. Even deciding to

Spoiler

kill Bond at the start

was a tough call but I never see her emotional with this thing. On the other end, we see Lucrecia: killing Vinny's dad, acting like a highschool girl in certain scenes, births a mass murderer, ultimately ruins the Valentine family's lives and rather than pay for her mistakes she ... runs away from them into a cave.


As the years went and I look back (liking the game and somehow the story) I realized this flaw and was just disappointed they made Lucrecia a soap opera girl instead of what she is supposed to be: an ambitious scientist who wanted to change the world who is curt and professional.

 

[jazzflower92]

basically, this woman:

How M supersedes Lucercia : Both women work on their field with a dedicated cause and many attempts have been made to make them unsympathetic under the pressure of the film/game and they made the same shitty mistakes (or similar). What makes M more of an understandable character than Lucrecia is she never breaks down and mans up to her problems. Even deciding to

Spoiler

kill Bond at the start

was a tough call but I never see her emotional with this thing. On the other end, we see Lucrecia: killing Vinny's dad, acting like a highschool girl in certain scenes, births a mass murderer, ultimately ruins the Valentine family's lives and rather than pay for her mistakes she ... runs away from them into a cave.


As the years went and I look back (liking the game and somehow the story) I realized this flaw and was just disappointed they made Lucrecia a soap opera girl instead of what she is supposed to be: an ambitious scientist who wanted to change the world who is curt and professional.

About the part of birthing a mass murderer, in the game I noticed they put that part of her having visions of Sephiroth as an adult. I know in the original game when she was in the cave they said she had images of Sephiroth. However, in the Ultimanias they said that Lucrecia was experiencing birthing pains when she fell down and not anything to do about her son's future. I think they retconned that part in order so they could get Sephiroth into the game without actually having him there.

It makes one wonder after having those visions why would she continue on with the project if she had an idea of what her son would become. I think they were trying to make her more tragic but at the same time this should have spurned her to be more active and actually do something like get her son away from Shinra thus probably prevent the fate she saw in her visions. That's the annoying thing about her is she sees something wrong she tries to runaway from her problems or tries to fix it in the worst way possible. Or worst yet doing nothing and just wallow in her self pity while others have to clean up after her mistakes.

And the biggest mistake she has done next to putting Chaos into Vincent was injecting Jenova's cells into her son as a fetus. I always wondered did she ever regret doing experimentation on Sephiroth because someone said she didn't.

 

[ForceStealer]

How would she have had any clue what that vision meant?

And wouldn't her stealing Sephiroth from Shinra been a retcon since that...didn't happen?

I think you guys just all liked Lucrecia too much from the beginning. M makes tough decisions for the greater good. Lucrecia was driven by ambition, just telling herself it was for the greater good.

 

[jazzflower92]

How would she have had any clue what that vision meant?

And wouldn't her stealing Sephiroth from Shinra been a retcon since that...didn't happen?

I think you guys just all liked Lucrecia too much from the beginning. M makes tough decisions for the greater good. Lucrecia was driven by ambition, just telling herself it was for the greater good.

What I meant by stealing Sephiroth from Shinra is that she should have because of those visions she had while she was pregnant and not matter how vague they could be seeing something like that should indicate something horrible will happen in the future if someone didn't intervene.

I think everyone was disappointed with Lucrecia in this game because it squandered her character by wasting it on a cheap angsty backstory that made her into a emotional driven immature pinhead. The fact is they could have focused on the fact that she was disguising her ambition as doing it for the great good but instead opted to butcher her as a character with what we got in DOC.

 

[Unlucky]

To be fair, if Lucrecia did not participate in the experimentation of her child, or had the child aborted, or kept him away from Shinra, then we would have a different story. That mistake of hers is an essential part of the FFVII plot and her characterization. I don't think it's reasonable to dislike Lucrecia for that in particular, disagreeable it may be-- it's a character flaw that defines her.

 

[jazzflower92]

To be fair, if Lucrecia did not participate in the experimentation of her child, or had the child aborted, or kept him away from Shinra, then we would have a different story. That mistake of hers is an essential part of the FFVII plot and her characterization. I don't think it's reasonable to dislike Lucrecia for that in particular, disagreeable it may be-- it's a character flaw that defines her.

Okay, you have a point right there because without her experimenting on Sephiroth then there would be probably a different set of events that would have happened. Story wise I think it would be my personal pet peeve with her. Besides I think she did take Sephiroth away from Shinra she would have been hunted down for it by Hojo who would have done anything in his power to bring back his prized specimen.

Another thing I noticed in the game they made Hojo more obviously evil in the flashbacks just so it seemed like Lucrecia was punishing herself by becoming his wife.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

jazzflower, I think your love of FFVII's "what-was" and "what-could-have-been" development-wise is clouding your memory of "what-happened"...

 

[jazzflower92]

Going back to the subject of Hojo people have said in DOC that Lucrecia marrying him seems to be her trying to push Vincent away from her. In the original game it seems Lucrecia does it out of misjudged concern and ambition in the scientific field. In DOC this results in Hojo becoming more blatantly nastier than he was in the OG's flashback. I also noticed how things changed between the flashbacks concerning when Lucrecia chose Hojo. In the OG game she was seen hugging Hojo without any revulsion while in DOC she seems to be depressed when she decides to become his wife.

 

[Unlucky]

I am confused

Was it ever stated in any official material that Lucrecia saw Hojo as someone who needed nurturing or something along those lines, or was that just a theory that came up along our discussions?

 

[jazzflower92]

I am confused

Was it ever stated in any official material that Lucrecia saw Hojo as someone who needed nurturing or something along those lines, or was that just a theory that came up along our discussions?

It wasn't a theory that came up in the discussions it was very much written in the Ultimanias of the game.

 

[Unlucky]

Can anyone provide the link for the quote? I looked for it here in TLS but apparently my search skills are teh suck. I'd really appreciate it

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Better than that, in the original game (just before the party parachutes into Midgar), Vincent says that was the reason:

Vincent
Hojo... what a queer fellow.
Such utter lack of scientific talent... compared with the genius of Dr. Gast......
Lucrecia chose him trying to protect him...
Now I understand... I understand... but...

As for Lucrecia seeing a vision of the future, that was really stupid, random, inconsistent with the setting, etc.

 

[jazzflower92]

Better than that, in the original game (just before the party parachutes into Midgar), Vincent says that was the reason:



As for Lucrecia seeing a vision of the future, that was really stupid, random, inconsistent with the setting, etc.

Thus furthering the fact that the Grimoire subplot was very unnecessary when the game itself already explained why Lucrecia ultimately chose Hojo.

Yeah, that is how I felt about Lucrecia's vision because like all the other things in the game they try to pull off something dramatic but it is clumsily handled and comes off as narmy.

 

[Unlucky]

Thank you Tres <3

My guess is that the Grimoire subplot was chucked in to add a deeper connection between the elements of the story, mainly Chaos and Luc's relationship to Vincent. Which proves that doing so will not always make a story more compelling or interesting.

Lucrecia could well be working on her thesis alone or as the head of a team. To me what matters more is that bit where her research was discarded. Her humiliation would have propelled her to eagerly take part in Project S and marry one of the top names in the science department, may it be for her own gain or because she truly felt for him for sharing the frustration of not being rightfully recognized. Or both.

 

[jazzflower92]

Thank you Tres <3

My guess is that the Grimoire subplot was chucked in to add a deeper connection between the elements of the story, mainly Chaos and Luc's relationship to Vincent. Which proves that doing so will not always make a story more compelling or interesting.

Lucrecia could well be working on her thesis alone or as the head of a team. To me what matters more is that bit where her research was discarded. Her humiliation would have propelled her to eagerly take part in Project S and marry one of the top names in the science department, may it be for her own gain or because she truly felt for him for sharing the frustration of not being rightfully recognized. Or both.

Yeah, the Grimoire subplot was a definite example of tropes not always being good.

Also for the Lucrecia's work not being recognized I think that could have been made into another explanation why she chose Hojo as well. For Lucrecia would share Hojo's annoyance that they didn't get the respect they thought they deserved in the science community.

Lucrecia's ambition as a scientist really should have been the focus of the game. It would have actually brought more into her relationship with Vincent. Here I could have seen a scientific woman who has to choose between marrying someone who could possibly be her ticket to recognition or have someone who genuinely loves and cares for her. Of course she chooses the former and it later comes to bite in the butt when she doesn't get everything she expected and is left worse for it. I think that would have actually made for a better written tragic story.

 

[Shizuka]

My interpertation from the OG I thought Vincent was in love with her but that was one sided. I do believe she liked him as a friend that it. I always thought she picked Hojo over Vincent because forget looks between Hojo and Vincent. She has far more in common with Hojo than Vincent. And she clearly would look up to Hojo as he was in high end job that related to her interest.

As for the experiments again I'm going off the OG I did think she was a willing participant as the experiment went further down the road she began to have misgivings about it ultimately regret.

Even without the story of her in DoC which in my opinion I couldn't stand self ventured winey bitch but even without that in the OG I didn't like her many seemed to feel sorry for her, believing Hojo had coaxed her into it (which wasn't the case) in the OG she is a horrible person that willingly experimented on her child. And Hojo gets far more blame than her which I don't think is right. He clearly is beyond bonkers. She on the other hand is not a mental case like Hojo. Hojo tends to get all the blame which I don't think is right. She played a major role in Sephiroth's life and I'll say it again I can see why even after finding out everything in the lifestream still continued to call Jenova mother.

 

[jazzflower92]

My interpertation from the OG I thought Vincent was in love with her but that was one sided. I do believe she liked him as a friend that it. I always thought she picked Hojo over Vincent because forget looks between Hojo and Vincent. She has far more in common with Hojo than Vincent. And she clearly would look up to Hojo as he was in high end job that related to her interest.

As for the experiments again I'm going off the OG I did think she was a willing participant as the experiment went further down the road she began to have misgivings about it ultimately regret.

Even without the story of her in DoC which in my opinion I couldn't stand self ventured winey bitch but even without that in the OG I didn't like her many seemed to feel sorry for her, believing Hojo had coaxed her into it (which wasn't the case) in the OG she is a horrible person that willingly experimented on her child. And Hojo gets far more blame than her which I don't think is right. He clearly is beyond bonkers. She on the other hand is not a mental case like Hojo. Hojo tends to get all the blame which I don't think is right. She played a major role in Sephiroth's life and I'll say it again I can see why even after finding out everything in the lifestream still continued to call Jenova mother.

I think some fans see it through Vincent's eyes and think of her as an innocent victim of circumstances that was less willing as she let on. But yeah some of the fans do absolve of her of any wrong doing and try to paint Lucrecia as a pure Madonna.

Sadly I believe Vincent's point of view of her strips any true responsibility for her horrible actions. Ironically the only one who criticized her actions at all was Hojo himself.