MarzGurl Reviews Final Fantasy XIII

[Theozilla]

I think this might have been mentioned once in the Spoony One Final Fantasy XIII Review thread but I thought it was worth giving its own thread. MarzGurl is old school FF player (and one of the older TGWTG reviewers) who gives some pretty interesting analysis of the game (and not in a done for laughs kind of way). I think it is worth checking out, two installments have come out so far.
Part 1: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vi...marzgurl-reviews-final-fantasy-xiii-episode-1
Part 2: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vi...marzgurl-reviews-final-fantasy-xiii-episode-2

 

[Fangu]

I wish it was longer! I learned a lot from this. She also points out a few things I didn't realize and/or hadn't thought about. Especially the change of the paradigm names was interesting. I'd have no problems with names 'Attack & Heal' over 'Yin and Yang'. And 'Enhancer' would have told me immediately what a Synergist actually does. Actually I think if they gave me the Japanese names/ songs/ names/ w/e I'd probably be a lot happier. And a lot less confused! Also, in the JP version a different song plays during the Snow & Serah Bodhum kissing scene?? I had no idea!

You know what, I'm starting to get slightly pissed about the localization team now. I am frigging over the moon they're releasing LR:XIII with the original voice work, and hopefully names and songs and the rest of it will be unspoilt as well.

Poor XIII. The game where everything went wrong. Except for the post game stuff, but that's my personal preference.

 

[ForceStealer]

I kinda liked the stylistic paradigm names...its not like it doesn't tell you the roles involved right next to it.

 

[Lex]

I absolutely loved that, I want her to review all my games!

Really got me thinking about the whole Japanese vs. English emotional experience thing. In X they used Suteki Da Ne as she mentioned and absolutely nothing was lost emotionally IMO. However, X did something I'll never forgive that shocked me to my very core when I found out about it ten years after actually playing the game:

Spoiler: Do not read this if you haven't completed X. I'm looking at you Fangu. And possibly also Shademp

Changing Yuna's "Arigato" (thank you) to "I love you" in the English version. Not only does the way she says "Thank you" already convey the necessary "love" emotion, but it's altogether more powerful. I know why they did it; lip synching etc but I can't help but feel that the localisation team put it in for dramatic effect when, at least for me, it had the opposite effect when I found out about the original. It's just a massively important thing to change IMO.

 

[ForceStealer]

I definitely disagree with that spoiler.

Spoiler

In my opinion, 'Thank you' would not have carried anywhere near the weight that was intended with that. In Japanese, people do not say "I love you" as we do, and the spirit of that line was absolutely her expressing love. In English it would have seemed odd that Tidus turned around looking so affected by her thanking him. In English, her saying I love you is a much more satisfying conclusion to the love story and I have always been grateful that they did not transliterate that line.

 

[Lex]

Well,

Spoiler

my point is that the emotion of what she says is actually conveyed in her face and the way the line is said, so outright saying "I love you" isn't necessary, and IMO saying it without the bare, in your face words adds to the emotion of the scene, especially when you consider the fact that Tidus doesn't say anything back; instead using movement.

Regardless of cultural differences, I just don't think it was a necessary change, but we might want to bear in mind that there are some often overlooked differences between our own two cultures that might be colouring this discussion

 

[Fangu]

I kinda liked the stylistic paradigm names...its not like it doesn't tell you the roles involved right next to it.

I like my choices to be shown where the pointer is. Instead of reading the choice and learning the name in one operation, I now have to press up and down while looking to the right (where it says COM RAV RAV etc) which means not paying any attention to the names in the process. Which means I have to go into the menu to rehears them, or I have to make sure that for every paradigm I use, I keep checking for the name so I learn it.

Bottom line: They're not intuitive.

In X they used Suteki Da Ne as she mentioned and absolutely nothing was lost emotionally IMO.

Yeah. In fact, had they replaced that with something else, that scene probably would have had less emotions for me, because how can you top that song? If you can't do it better, leave it. That song is amazing. It has that anime feel that goes so well with a cutscene. And to me it's a package deal anyway; movements, clothes, story, speech. Which is probably why I generally prefer original versions over dubbed. Don't get me wrong, VA's can be super good, but still. Some things you simply can't translate. Tidus' VA did a great job, but his voice is just... wrong. It's like a cat who starts barking.

Anyway the whole translating thing is sorta off-topic. But she's getting into something which for me is kinda important when it comes to the FF games. They're Japanese. Even if they are meant for an International audience and everyone can relate to the human emotions and the relationships in the games - the stories of parents and children, pride, loss, love etc., I think washing out a lot of the traces of its originality is being untrue to the FF concept, in a way, as the only thing that was different about the earlier games was the text. Now they're changing scripts and music and whatnot. I mean, I get why they do it. It can be hard for people to instinctively know that a nod in Japan is just as good as a 'yes', and they have to put in Lightnings lips moving and have her say it, instead of the subtle nod. But I don't like it. I like stuff being flavored. I like spices. I don't want things to turn into a tasteless blend of IKEA meatballs and sugar. Edit: By that I don't mean that the English language is tasteless X) But it's like, why make this mash up when you can elegantly leave stuff as it is instead of making it into this, at the worst, freak baby.

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler: more FFX spoiler

]True enough, Lex.

But I don't see any reason why she would not say it. He's going to disappear, presumably forever, why would she still beat around the bush? The words would be more direct, but it's not like she's saying something crass. And getting added emotion by her not saying what you know she wants to was not intended in the Japanese script. It's simply that they don't really say "I love you," so I find this to be more in keeping with the intent of the scene, even if the words aren't directly translated.

For an example at the opposite end of the spectrum - changing Cloud's "Let's go," to "Let's mosey." Cid gets annoyed at Cloud for using a such a casual, unemotive term at such an important moment. The problem is, "Let's go," isn't especially casual in English and is used very frequently in a very serious manner. Changing it to "Let's mosey," in addition to making Cid's complaint makes sense, closer fits the intent of the scene, imo.

I haven't watched this video yet, being at work , but are they talking about the switch from Kimi ga Iru to My Hands? Because the former is a painfully generic jpop song that could have been in any anime closing credits and not seemed out of place. I suppose you could say My Hands is a generic western pop song. But at least it was a little different.
But, obviously, I'd be cool with dropping this whole pop song thing altogether. I can only think of 1 in the entire series that "worked" at all. (1000 Words. Oh, and by the way, JADE is a superior singer to Koda Kumi in every conceivable way.)

 

[Lex]

I partially agree with what you said there. The "Let's Mosey" thing was a necessary change IMO, and positively added to the plot. The other thing I mentioned before, just didn't work for me personally; and objectively speaking I don't think the change was necessary. So for me those two examples are quite different, because you're comparing a game with voices and graphics that are able to convey emotion without having to be obvious, and a game that needs to tell it's story with a limited number of animations and text. This is obviously both my personal opinion and coloured I think by Scottish/British or European culture. I think European culture lands somewhere in between the Japanese's/ East Asian subtle non-obvious emotional displays and the Murcan end of the scale. There are variations everywhere of course though, that's just how I feel from personal experience.

You should definitely watch the video though Force, I might actually watch it again. She hits the nail on the head with so many points and basically sums up the entirety of what I find wrong with the game.

I liked "My Hands". I remember having a bit of nerd rage when I found out they were using a different song, but it fits incredibly well. I've just remembered Ayaka's "Why" wasn't changed at the end of Crisis Core either and that fit well too IMO.

 

[ForceStealer]

Nor were either of Gackt's DoC tracks.

 

[Strangelove]

Not sure why Nomura is lumped with 'new guy' Toriyama (who has worked on the series since at least VII as far as I know), when he was around since V like Kitase who she mentioned next.

And the music bit in part 1 seemed a bit reaching. I understand missing the common themes (even though 'Final Fantasy' was missing from others games too), but the complaints about the Chocobo theme songs seems out-there to me. How did Chocobos of Pulse lose the original melody in its arrangement? And then complaining about lyrics on Chocobos of Cocoon yet not saying anything about the other vocal tracks. Is that just because it's a chocobo song?

And treasure wasn't on the map until you'd already collected it. There is a video clip right where she's talking about it, which shows that the treasure isn't shown on the map until you pick it up. It's right there yet she's talking about how the map shows you where treasure is.

I thought the second video was interesting, but in comparison the first part was really nothing new. It's basically the same criticisms that are usually brought against XIII.

Especially the change of the paradigm names was interesting. I'd have no problems with names 'Attack & Heal' over 'Yin and Yang'.

I don't think the Japanese names help much more for the 3 character combinations (ATK/ATK/ATK was 'Cerberus', ATK/ATK/BLA was 'Furious', ATK/ATK/JAM was 'Agression', ATK/ATK/DEF was 'Steel Legion'). As you go further it gets more obscure ('Formidable' is two enchancers and a jammer). But the two character names where simple and just telling you what was going on. Once you know 'Assault' means an attacker, you know what's going on with Double Assualt, Assault & Cure, Assault & Support, etc.

'Blaster' didn't seem too intuitive to me, but when it's shortened to BLA it's kind of like 'BLAck magic' which is basically what it is. That's how I remembered it anyway 'Jammer' was another one because 'jama' in Japanese means to hinder or get in the way (which is what the role's battle command was called), which is what the role does.

 

[Fangu]

Thanks for that info on the Paradigms, hito. I agree, 'Steel Legion' doesn't really say much either.

For an example at the opposite end of the spectrum - changing Cloud's "Let's go," to "Let's mosey." Cid gets annoyed at Cloud for using a such a casual, unemotive term at such an important moment. The problem is, "Let's go," isn't especially casual in English and is used very frequently in a very serious manner. Changing it to "Let's mosey," in addition to making Cid's complaint makes sense, closer fits the intent of the scene, imo.

Yeah, I agree. Some things (or, most things?) you have to translate as more than just translating it word for word, and that's why you need knowledge of both cultures. I think 'Let's Mosey' is an example of good decision making when it comes to translating.

Good subs 'translate' jokes as well into something people can relate to. What I've been noticing a lot on Norwegian TV over the last decades though is that they don't necessarily find Norwegian references to things, because most people know about American or British politicians, for instance. They leave the reference untranslated. So it's all about knowing how your audience will interpret stuff. I guess most of the stuff the translators of FF games come up with are liked and appreciated. But regarding Lightnings nod for instance, a nod is a multi cultural thing and shouldn't need to be supported with a 'yes', but this is just me being... me Which I guess is what it boils down to; personal preference. I like it when stuff aren't handed to you 100%. I don't like stories or movies where stuff are spoken out 110%, imo I think it makes scripts less refined. I like subtleness.

Spoiler: X spoiler (I saw the ending on YT like a year ago Lex, forgive me)

So I'd say an 'Arigato' is far enough information to know what's going on. But. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT. Why hasn't anyone used that parallel to support Noerah? XD

I haven't watched this video yet, being at work , but are they talking about the switch from Kimi ga Iru to My Hands? Because the former is a painfully generic jpop song that could have been in any anime closing credits and not seemed out of place.

She talks about how SE wanted the translation team to come up with a new song, but due to lack of time etc they simply purchased the right to use 'My Hands' instead. I've grown to like that song in that context as well as on the album - but mind you I knew about Leona from before and really like her songs. I like the ending song of XIII-2 and I think that one is the same, only with English lyrics. I know a lot of people don't like it though.

Edit: I feel this post doesn't express my points very well. Sorry for the mess.

 

[ForceStealer]

Not sure why Nomura is lumped with 'new guy' Toriyama (who has worked on the series since at least VII as far as I know), when he was around since V like Kitase who she mentioned next.

And the music bit in part 1 seemed a bit reaching. I understand missing the common themes (even though 'Final Fantasy' was missing from others games too), but the complaints about the Chocobo theme songs seems out-there to me. How did Chocobos of Pulse lose the original melody in its arrangement? And then complaining about lyrics on Chocobos of Cocoon yet not saying anything about the other vocal tracks. Is that just because it's a chocobo song?

And treasure wasn't on the map until you'd already collected it. There is a video clip right where she's talking about it, which shows that the treasure isn't shown on the map until you pick it up. It's right there yet she's talking about how the map shows you where treasure is.

Well that all sounds annoying, especially the treasure one. This bodes poorly...

But regarding Lightnings nod for instance, a nod is a multi cultural thing and shouldn't need to be supported with a 'yes', but this is just me being... me Which I guess is what it boils down to; personal preference. I like it when stuff aren't handed to you 100%. I don't like stories or movies where stuff are spoken out 110%, imo I think it makes scripts less refined.

I guess, although I see a "yes" added just as often as it isn't added. I agree it'd be fine without it, but it's not something that's likely going to bother me either, unless it's really screwing with a scene's flow.

I like subtleness.

Spoiler: X spoiler (I saw the ending on YT like a year ago Lex, forgive me)

So I'd say an 'Arigato' is far enough information to know what's going on.

Spoiler

That's wouldn't seem subtle, it'd just seem obtuse for the sake of it. It would have frustrated me that Yuna couldn't just come out with it when it's her very last chance to do so. Yes, things don't need to be spelled out all the time. But the point of that scene in Japanese was that she was telling Tidus how she felt. She wasn't being subtle. I think the English scene would have been empty by comparison with her merely saying "Thank you," regardless of her tone of voice. That would have been adding 'subtlety' where it did not previously exist.

And how come you don't want Yuna to be direct but you don't like the stylistic Paradigm names?

 

[Zee]

i don't have time to watch the whole thing atm but i do agree with what she says in the beginning about xiii being cut from an entirely different cloth as the rest of the series. i often think it was a wasted opportunity for SE not to have simply billed this as an entirely new franchise (after all, wasn't the point of the xiii/versus/agito saga supposed to be that they were a series of games that ran on a common mythology?).

i think a lot of people might have had a different perspective on the games if they weren't matched up against their predecessors. couldn't they have just put the ff franchise to bed for a moment while they experimented with a new one?

 

[Fangu]

Spoiler: X ending spoiler

That's wouldn't seem subtle, it'd just seem obtuse for the sake of it. It would have frustrated me that Yuna couldn't just come out with it when it's her very last chance to do so. Yes, things don't need to be spelled out all the time. But the point of that scene in Japanese was that she was telling Tidus how she felt. She wasn't being subtle. I think the English scene would have been empty by comparison with her merely saying "Thank you," regardless of her tone of voice. That would have been adding 'subtlety' where it did not previously exist.

Spoiler: X ending spoiler

She kinda already told him, though. She revealed through that audio recording (I know it probably isn't technically an audio recording but let's just call it that) that she was in love with him.

I guess I just have a different view of the world 'love', I'm sorta biased by my own language. I thought it would be strange for her to say that because she hasn't really known him that long. A thought experiment - I know "love" is a word you say to both your partner and your family in English. In my language, it is not so. The Norwegian word for 'love', 'elske', is for your partner alone, there are other words for your family. Usually it takes being together for quite some time to say you 'love' someone. It's sort of a very secret thing you only share when you are absolutely sure, and it's usually not something you say in to each other in public, or over the phone. It's a very intimate word. So if Yuna was to use that word in _my_ language, it would just sound absurd seeing she hasn't lived with him yet, she hasn't had his children, or something similar. She doesn't truly know what it is to know all of him and love all of him.

'Thank you' would work better in my language. I know that this is probably pointless to bring up as the dub is in English. However, I still think 'thank you' covers it enough, because 'thank you' in that context doesn't mean just 'thank you' - it means 'thank you for being a part of my life, for sharing your feelings with me'.

I had a talk with myself while typing this and realized maybe 'I love you' isn't as strange as I first thought - I think the use of that phrase confuses me. It has been used in similar stuff in Buffy (won't get into it because spoilers etc) and it confused the hell out of me why you would bring up such an intimate word when someone is about to disappear. Something more goodbyeish would make more sense.

I'm ranting. I should stop.

Spoiler: X ending spoiler

And how come you don't want Yuna to be direct but you don't like the stylistic Paradigm names?

Spoiler: X ending spoiler

I don't see how they're quite the same. Yuna talks about feelings, while the Paradigm is simply about telling your player what this stuff means.

But I see how it makes a nice tongue in cheek

 

[ForceStealer]

They're not the same, it was a joke

And thanks for the insight, as I know almost nothing about your language

Spoiler: X spolier

But I agree with what you sort of hinted at. If the dub were Norwegian, thank you would be better as its more comparable to Japanese in that sense. In English I maintain that I love you is more accurate.

 

[Novus]

I absolutely loved that, I want her to review all my games!

Really got me thinking about the whole Japanese vs. English emotional experience thing. In X they used Suteki Da Ne as she mentioned and absolutely nothing was lost emotionally IMO. However, X did something I'll never forgive that shocked me to my very core when I found out about it ten years after actually playing the game:

Spoiler: Do not read this if you haven't completed X. I'm looking at you Fangu. And possibly also Shademp

Changing Yuna's "Arigato" (thank you) to "I love you" in the English version. Not only does the way she says "Thank you" already convey the necessary "love" emotion, but it's altogether more powerful. I know why they did it; lip synching etc but I can't help but feel that the localisation team put it in for dramatic effect when, at least for me, it had the opposite effect when I found out about the original. It's just a massively important thing to change IMO.

This is very major, I'm usually okay with dubbed animation, I wonder how much else was changed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. To the Youtube mobile.

 

[Lex]

Maybe I should have been clearer before, but it's not

Spoiler

that I wanted her to say "thank you", I'm just not bothered what she says at all because the emotion of the scene isn't in the words, and I think the translators use of "I love you" is inappropriate, because in my opinion it actually detracts from the emotion of the scene by making it too dramatic, in a sense. Maybe dramatic is a poor word choice, I feel like I'm struggling to get my point across here. "I love you" is an important phrase in English, whereas "arigato"/ "thank you" is not. To put it bluntly, you already know they love each other, and my first thought when I first played it was "why didn't he say it back?". Looks like we're agreeing to disagree on this one anyway Force, because I really don't think it was wise to drive the point home with a spoken line when that's not what the original did.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If nothing else, this review inspired an interesting language discussion, so it's awesome. I eat that shit up. Please keep going, guys.

Spoiler: Regarding the FFX thing

: I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Force. I kind of think it was driving the point home by using a spoken line -- for Tidus anyway, even if not for players.

On the other hand, "Thank you" carries another meaning to Tidus's situation that I think is easily overlooked. FFX is his coming-of-age story. It's all about him becoming a man and experiencing life in the real world (quite literally). He has matured so much along his journey, and as he begins to disappear, you hear the fear in his voice as it trembles, and you know he wants to cry.

Then Yuna says "Thank you" and he's reminded why he did all this. Being so reminded, he hugs her in farewell and walks off into the clouds to face his fate with his head held high -- before then literally diving into destiny's arms.

It's a powerful moment. "Thank you" works very well for it, in any language.

As a close to experiencing most of what life has to offer and growing up, "Thank you" seems more fitting. As a close to the love story, the most personal and vital element of Tidus's experiences, "I love you" works best.

One gives a thoughtful conclusion to his overall arc, the other a fitting thing to be heard by a man who gave his life for a woman he fell in love with. Both work for me.

I think a U.S. audience would largely have been confused by "Thank you" instead of "I love you" and interpreted it as Yuna holding something back to spare her or Tidus's feelings. It may have even been seen as selfish not to give him that as he's dying (this is the kind of thinking behind that "I love you" in the last episode of "Buffy," Fangu). Since neither of those things were intended, I'm glad they ultimately went with what they did.

 

[ForceStealer]

If nothing else, this review inspired an interesting language discussion, so it's awesome. I eat that shit up. Please keep going, guys.

You and me both.

Spoiler: Regarding the FFX thing

I think a U.S. audience would largely have been confused by "Thank you" instead of "I love you" and interpreted it as Yuna holding something back to spare her or Tidus's feelings. It may have even been seen as selfish not to give him that as he's dying (this is the kind of thinking behind that "I love you" in the last episode of "Buffy," Fangu). Since neither of those things were intended, I'm glad they ultimately went with what they did.

Although your silken way with words makes the alternate sound better than I previously thought, this is exactly my feeling on the subject.

 

[Lex]

I can completely understand that point of view.

Spoiler

If it hadn't been changed in the first place, there might have been some discussion about why she didn't say it. Alas, we'll never know. While I agree with your feelings on what "thank you" represents Tres, I think it carries "I love you" on its own, on top of the conclusion to Tidus's coming-of-age story. That's probably why I consider "I love you" to be a bit of a step down, since I feel like the part you detailed was slightly lost when they changed it. Having said that, I might see it as carrying both meanings because I originally experienced it with "I love you". Another thing we'll never know. They're both meaningful, but "thank you" means more to me because of the narrative leading up to that point, as well as the emotion that is already being spelled out by the scene.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Spoiler: FFX-2 follow-up observations

: It's nifty how both phrases work equally well for the parallel drawn here, where the whole Shuyin crisis centers around him dying seconds before Lenne and not getting to hear her say "Thank you"/"I love you" as they died. Much is made of the peace found in death that came with those words, and the unrest that would be entailed by missing them.

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler: X, X-2

Although Tres' rationale helps, I feel like in English, this reaction:

is a bit more befitting 'I love you' and a bit too strong/shocked for 'thank you'. (And I know we're agreeing to disagree, Lex, just that I'm home now so I can go hunting for images )

I very much like those observations, Tres. And that Yuna initially dreams that it is she and Tidus parting on those (lack of) terms drives your point home further.

 

[Lex]

Spoiler

But her face is already saying what needs to be said, so why does her mouth need to? This is what I'm trying to say.

Besides, we all know words aren't the only way

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler

But Tidus can't see her face