My Bugenhagen/Gast Theory

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I admit, that's always puzzled me. How did Shinra get rich selling weapons? What superpowers bought them? I just always assumed that there was a lot more to their world than we were seeing - we only saw what was essential to the story.

 

[Elysianist]

Interesting... I never thought about that tbh. They started with weapons manufacturing however you could assume that they were doing research to attempt to improve their weaponry and gradually grew. This would have theoretically encouraged more researchers to join ShinRa which may have then led to the discovery of Mako and the company growing as a whole.

For some reason I feel like saying they received funding from somewhere but that would be flawed because there wasn't really anywhere they could get mass funding from.

 

[Ite]

Also, the world map is like the size of Texas, so the idea that Google became the government isn't that far fetched.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Ultimania Omega says that there was some great international war that had spread across the planet going on at the time Shin-Ra rolled out manufactured materia, SOLDIERs and began mako production. This war lasted for several years, and by the time it ended (which was shortly after the introduction of SOLDIERs wielding the manufactured materia), the public had become dependent on mako, which left Shin-Ra in charge of everything in the reconstruction period.

Absolutely no details were ever provided on who the participants in this war were, what they were fighting about, or who Shin-Ra was supplying. It's all really quite baffling, especially since -- from the look of most towns -- only Wutai and maybe the towns that became Midgar would have had the means to engage in a years-long war.

I can only conclude that these details were omitted not so much because the guys at Square couldn't think up anything (Spira and Ivalice show that they have no trouble fleshing out a setting), but because of what Licorice said: a deliberate theme of lost identity that pervades the story.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The Ultimania Omega says that there was some great international war that had spread across the planet going on at the time Shin-Ra rolled out manufactured materia, SOLDIERs and began mako production. This war lasted for several years, and by the time it ended (which was shortly after the introduction of SOLDIERs wielding the manufactured materia), the public had become dependent on mako, which left Shin-Ra in charge of everything in the reconstruction period.

Absolutely no details were ever provided on who the participants in this war were, what they were fighting about, or who Shin-Ra was supplying. It's all really quite baffling, especially since -- from the look of most towns -- only Wutai and maybe the towns that became Midgar would have had the means to engage in a years-long war.

But since that's the Ultimania Omega and not the final draft, we know those aren't the canon facts, yeah? For example, Shinra only started SOLDIER and Materia as a response to their war against Wutai, right?

(NOTE: I can't really count Ivalice as a Final Fantasy byproduct. The world of Ivalice is Yasumi Matsuno's brainchild, and anyone who's played Tactics Ogre can tell you, that man can cook up a fucking setting for real. Let Us Cling Together has a setting that puts FF settings to shame.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it's supposed to be the canon story. This info was in the profile for Shin-Ra, not the Early Material Files section.

Agreement about Matsuno, by the way. Dude is brilliant. And, yeah, I feel like Ivalice belongs to him more than SE.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Can you direct me to those translations on the site?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thinking over it more (wish I had the book with me at work to look at again), maybe it was meant to be talking about the Wutai War, but that still would make very little sense, as CC shows us that Midgar was already Midgar -- and under Shin-Ra's control -- well before the war ended.

Furthermore, mako reactors had been around a couple of decades by that point.

It doesn't really make sense to me for it to have been the Wutai War, as the way I remember the passage speaking is that the war in question began while Shin-Ra was still a weapons manufacturer, and that providing the rapid means to end the war, as well as the power source everyone had come to depend on is what allowed them to become the dictatorship we know in the present.

But, again, I'm going off memory here. Maybe hito will stumble in and clarify things for us.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

uh

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...525-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/

This is Early Material stuff bro.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As that page mentions, many of those details are in common with the final story. The "Worldview" bit, for instance, is unchanged in the existing cosmology.

Honestly, I had forgotten these details about Shin-Ra winning a previous war for an unnamed country were even in the Early Material Files (near the back of the book). What I'm referencing is Shin-Ra's profile (toward the front), which goes on to give bios for the execs and the Turks. It's like right after the profiles for the main characters, and intermixed with the secondary characters profiles.

So, they definitely intended this origin story for Shin-Ra to be part of the canon.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Brah, you ain't doing a very good job of convincing me of that!

 

[Strangelove]

Thinking over it more (wish I had the book with me at work to look at again), maybe it was meant to be talking about the Wutai War, but that still would make very little sense, as CC shows us that Midgar was already Midgar -- and under Shin-Ra's control -- well before the war ended.

Furthermore, mako reactors had been around a couple of decades by that point.

It doesn't really make sense to me for it to have been the Wutai War, as the way I remember the passage speaking is that the war in question began while Shin-Ra was still a weapons manufacturer, and that providing the rapid means to end the war, as well as the power source everyone had come to depend on is what allowed them to become the dictatorship we know in the present.

But, again, I'm going off memory here. Maybe hito will stumble in and clarify things for us.

what is 'stumble in' supposed to mean

From page 56:

Keyword 【神羅カンパニー】
この世界を事実上仕切っている、巨大企業。もとは「神羅製作所」という名の兵器開発会社であったが、魔晄エネルギーの発見を機に飛躍的に成長。魔晄エネルギーを凝縮した「マテリア」や、魔晄エネルギーを直接その身に浴びた精鋭兵士「ソルジャー」を戦場に投入して当時世界全土に広がっていた大戦を終結に導き、さらに生活面にも魔晄エネルギーを応用することで、その後の世界を支配した。

Keyword: "Shinra Company"
A giant corporation that in effect runs the world. Originally "Shinra Manufacturings", a weapons development company, it grew exponentially with the discovery of mako energy. The deployment of "materia", condensed mako energy, and the elite fighting force "SOLDIER" who had been directly exposed to mako energy, they brought about the end of a massive war that had at the time spread across the globe, and furthermore with the application of mako energy into people's daily lives, they would later control the world.


I guess I can see from there where you can get that the discovery of mako (or at least its military applications) happens while this international war was already going on. I don't know if there's some other passage hidden away somewhere that would shed any more light on the war mentioned here, and I don't remember enough off the top of my head to recall if the Wutai war was supposed to be the one where they first used SOLDIER.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Brah, you ain't doing a very good job of convincing me of that!

My fault, I guess. I had limited options while posting on my phone.

Okay, so back to square one.

You agree that the Early Material Files describe what I'm saying, right (i.e. Shin-Ra rolled out SOLDIER, materia production, mako reactors, etc. during a war prior to the Wutai War)? As you can see in the passage hito posted above (this is the one I was referring to), it describes the same situation in Shin-Ra's canon profile.

Also, the introduction to the Worldview & Terminology section of the Early Material Files mentions that a lot of what it describes in that section is also true of the final version: "Materials on the worldview and terminology, with many parts in common with the final game."

製品版にも共通する部分が多い世界観・用語の設定。

That bit wasn't editorializing from hito or Mako, which isn't entirely clear when you're reading the article as it was published, I think. That was actually a line from the book, as is "Additionally, we have included 'Another Hypothesis' which, while quite different from the final game, is an interesting interpretation."

The "About magic" part didn't make it into canon, nor did hardly anything at all from the "Another Hypothesis" section -- but most everything from "Worldview," "Shinra Co.," "Shinra's goal," "The Mako City, Midgar" and "SOLDIER" did.

I hope that makes for a more convincing argument.

what is 'stumble in' supposed to mean

In what other fashion are you going to arrive after a night of drunken sex with me?

I guess I can see from there where you can get that the discovery of mako (or at least its military applications) happens while this international war was already going on. I don't know if there's some other passage hidden away somewhere that would shed any more light on the war mentioned here, and I don't remember enough off the top of my head to recall if the Wutai war was supposed to be the one where they first used SOLDIER.

The "they would later control the world" part really suggests to me that all this other stuff (manufactured materia, mako reactors, development of the SOLDIER force, ending the war) happened before Shin-Ra became the dictatorship they already had become by the time of the war with Wutai.

The Early Material Files clearly spell out that these events were planned to have taken place before Midgar became the plate city we know and love. Giiven that 1) the section in question was prefaced with the statement that many details described there are true of the final game, and 2) the overall description of both series of events is remarkably similar (especially with that "they would later control the world" bit in the canon profile), I think it makes the most sense to conclude that this is one of those details that's true of both the early drafts and final product.

Thanks for weighing in.

 

[Elysianist]

The topic has completely shifted XD
I'm glad I sparked a good discussion though, thanks for posting.

 

[S and G]

In what other fashion are you going to arrive after a night of drunken sex with me?

Brilliant. This should be our new topic

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You agree that the Early Material Files describe what I'm saying, right (i.e. Shin-Ra rolled out SOLDIER, materia production, mako reactors, etc. during a war prior to the Wutai War)? As you can see in the passage hito posted above (this is the one I was referring to), it describes the same situation in Shin-Ra's canon profile.

Also, the introduction to the Worldview & Terminology section of the Early Material Files mentions that a lot of what it describes in that section is also true of the final version: "Materials on the worldview and terminology, with many parts in common with the final game."

製品版にも共通する部分が多い世界観・用語の設定。

That bit wasn't editorializing from hito or Mako, which isn't entirely clear when you're reading the article as it was published, I think. That was actually a line from the book, as is "Additionally, we have included 'Another Hypothesis' which, while quite different from the final game, is an interesting interpretation."

The "About magic" part didn't make it into canon, nor did hardly anything at all from the "Another Hypothesis" section -- but most everything from "Worldview," "Shinra Co.," "Shinra's goal," "The Mako City, Midgar" and "SOLDIER" did.

I hope that makes for a more convincing argument.

Well, no, to be honest. I really think that this 'massive war' was really just the Wutai War.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ah, the hell with it. Who knows at this point, man.

Whether we take it as the Wutai War or another war, the dates given to us in the official timelines and other sources don't make sense with the information we've been given about this war regardless of which it is.

Shin-Ra had become an electric company, established its headquarters in the center of Midgar, and turned it into "the Mako City" by 1976 (31 years before FFVII). Given that it was during a postwar period that Shin-Ra is supposed to have firmly come to power, transitioning from Shin-Ra Manufacturing Works to the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company, one would then assume that the war in question had already passed by 1976, right?

But JENOVA was only discovered "approximately 30 years" before FFVII, and Sephiroth obviously wasn't born before that (timelines say "approximately 25-30 years" before FFVII for his birth) -- meaning SOLDIER hadn't come along by 1976.

Seems like you'd then conclude that the Wutai War must be the one in question, right?

However, Case of Shin-Ra tells us that Shin-Ra ruled the world by 1987 (20 years before FFVII, when Rufus was five years old). The 10th AU timeline and the CC Ultimania timeline say that the war with Wutai started 15 years before FFVII, in 1992, and ended just under seven years prior, in February of 0001.

Furthermore, it's been said in more than one place that Zack left Gongaga 10 years prior to the original game (e.g. his 10th AU profile, his parents in the original game, etc.), in the hopes of becoming a SOLDIER -- inspired by Sephiroth's war exploits, just as Cloud was. So Zack left his hometown in 1997, three years before the war ended, hoping to become a SOLDIER.

If SOLDIER is supposed to have been introduced near the end of this mysterious war -- even assuming Zack took off immediately after Sephiroth became a household name -- three years is hardly a rapid close to the matter. Further complicating the dates if the war in question were the Wutai War, Shin-Ra was in control of the world at least 10 years earlier, in 1987, when SOLDIER wouldn't exist until perhaps 1997.

Hell, even if SOLDIER came along as early as when the Wutai War began in 1992, Shin-Ra was controlling the planet five years before that.

Other reasons the dates are stupid:
-Sephiroth's superhuman ability is supposed to have been evident when he was still a small child. Even assuming he was born only 25 years before the original game (1982), would it have taken Shin-Ra 10-15 years to apply JENOVA's cells to some kind of combat purpose (i.e. the development of SOLDIER)? You're a military man, so tell me what you think.

-If SOLDIER were around prior to the start of the Wutai War, should it have really taken eight or nine years to end it?



Shit just don't make sense, no matter how you slice it. I'm going to have to apologize for wasting your time with this whole thing, 'cause it's a futile exercise, and just further demonstrates SE's shoddy planning.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If SOLDIER is supposed to have been introduced near the end of this mysterious war -- even assuming Zack took off immediately after Sephiroth became a household name -- three years is hardly a rapid close to the matter.

Three years isn't 'bad' for a world war to rapidly close in on. Wars either end swiftly and decisively, or drag on for a very long time. If a war has been raging on for a decade, a factor that enables it to end in three years is not bad timing at all. The longer a war goes on, the longer it takes to actually end. The cessation of hostilities and all of the auxiliary effects that war brings takes a lot longer than people think to really come to a full stop.

-Sephiroth's superhuman ability is supposed to have been evident when he was still a small child. Even assuming he was born only 25 years before the original game (1982), would it have taken Shin-Ra 10-15 years to apply JENOVA's cells to some kind of combat purpose (i.e. the development of SOLDIER)? You're a military man, so tell me what you think.

It would have been hilariously stupid to send their most expensive investment into the battlefield as a little kid. As strong as Sephiroth is, he was never invulnerable, and even displaying superhuman ability as a child doesn't mean he would have lasted on a battlefield. Actually waiting for him to physically mature man up and to teach him how to fight and lead is the best way to prevent him from being uh, stabbed or something.

Contrary to what a lot of people like to believe, we have no reason to think that Sephiroth came out the womb swinging swords and bulletproof. His strength gain was linear like everyone elses, just a lot more rapid with a higher ceiling.

Point being, the combination of waiting for him to mature to really prove how good he is at actually fighting, along with the long time actually testing and trials, I can see it taking them a good decade to perfect the SOLDIER process.

-If SOLDIER were around prior to the start of the Wutai War, should it have really taken eight years to end it?

There's no way it should have. That's why it only makes sense to assume that SOLDIER and Sephiroth were really only deployed around the middle of the war. I got the impression that Shinra may not have won the war without them. The timeline is just sloppy and ill conceived.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Three years isn't 'bad' for a world war to rapidly close in on. Wars either end swiftly and decisively, or drag on for a very long time. If a war has been raging on for a decade, a factor that enables it to end in three years is not bad timing at all. The longer a war goes on, the longer it takes to actually end. The cessation of hostilities and all of the auxiliary effects that war brings takes a lot longer than people think to really come to a full stop.

Okay, fair enough.

It would have been hilariously stupid to send their most expensive investment into the battlefield as a little kid. As strong as Sephiroth is, he was never invulnerable, and even displaying superhuman ability as a child doesn't mean he would have lasted on a battlefield. Actually waiting for him to physically mature man up and to teach him how to fight and lead is the best way to prevent him from being uh, stabbed or something.

Contrary to what a lot of people like to believe, we have no reason to think that Sephiroth came out the womb swinging swords and bulletproof. His strength gain was linear like everyone elses, just a lot more rapid with a higher ceiling.

Point being, the combination of waiting for him to mature to really prove how good he is at actually fighting, along with the long time actually testing and trials, I can see it taking them a good decade to perfect the SOLDIER process.

My question here was more about them waiting that long to use the cells on more soldiers when they already knew they could provide superhuman benefits, not about sending Seph himself. But I guess your last paragraph there would address that as well.

There's no way it should have. That's why it only makes sense to assume that SOLDIER and Sephiroth were really only deployed around the middle of the war.

Normally, I would agree. It's just the bits about Shin-Ra becoming the global dominator in a postwar society and already effectively ruling the world years before the Wutai War that raise doubt.

Your last comment --

The timeline is just sloppy and ill conceived.

-- is really the only sure thing.