My opinion on why Dirge of Cerberus is important

[ElMonk86]

In the original Final Fantasy VII game, Vincent didn't really get any closure to his personal storyline. The other characters did -

Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith had the whole game devoted to them.
Barret had North Corel and Dyne.
Nanaki had Cosmo Canyon with his dad.
Yuffie (despite being optional both for her character and the mission itself) had the whole Wutai ordeal.
Cait Sith (aka Reeve) had his moment during the whole Keystone / Temple of Ancients part. Plus, it can be argued that the whole game was devoted to him as well.
Cid had the return to Rocket Town and when he took over the group briefly.

Vincent...all he got was the Lucrecia cave and that was optional. It was nothing, really. All it did was give details about his past. One can argue that his own resolution was killing Hojo in the final battle at Midgar, but even that's optional.

So, to truly tie up his loose end, Vincent got a whole game dedicated to him. I always thought that was one of the reasons why out of all the characters he ended up getting his own time in the spotlight. In that respect, the game's storyline was handled very well.

I liked how they gave extra depth to Vincent and Lucrecia's relationship, and about all the monsters inside of Vince. He really got alot of light shed on him. Some people seem to prefer his storyline to remain unresolved, though, the way FF7 ended it. Like, sometimes that's just life.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

COUNTERPOINT

Either Square should have resolved his story in the original FF7 (which is fair because Square should/could have improved a number of things in the original, it wasn't a perfect game)

Or Vincent should have gotten his story resolved within another title, or even a novella or something. The guy didn't need his own game.

 

[ElMonk86]

I'm not much of a gamer. I just really enjoy the FF7 story, so I play the games to find out what happened. Dirge wasn't that great, I know. It actually feels very much out of place within the FF7 catalog. I'm just saying that it added some extra spice not just to Vince, but also to the FF7 world. I liked how they described how the world would REALLY end.

I agree that he should've had a side mission of his own in the original FF7, but that's not how it went down. Plus, it would've been awkward if he got his story resolved in another title, since those are dedicated to new plots. It would've felt unnatural and too out of place. Dirge feels like that already by itself, but at least there's comfort in knowing that Vincent is the main character anyway. So there's no awkwardness there.

 

[Max Payne]

Before the compilation I thought Vincent's story was settled quite well.

The ambiguous nature of Lucrecia's fate, and Vincent settling with Hojo was good enough for me.

 

[Channy]

^^^ That. But considering he's an optional character, he gets shafted as far as storyline goes. But so does Yuffie. So by that logic she needs her own game too, one that would elaborate on the Wutai War, how it hurt her family and Wutai. How Materia was so important to them. And NINJAS.

I don't know. Vincent, while he intrigued me doesn't feel like the type to deserve his own game.

 

[ElMonk86]

Yeah, but unlike Vincent, Yuffie didn't get shafted with her own personal story. Her storyline pretty much was resolved in FF7.

 

[Max Payne]

Vincent didn't get shafted either. His storyline was solved when he killed Hojo and met with Lucrecia one last time.

All DoC did was open old wounds and send the blood gushing from them.

 

[ElMonk86]

You're talking about Vincent's line, "You're the one who should've been in that coffin", right?

And also right before the Sephiroth battle, when he says, "I feel like my life's just beginning", right?

I think Vincent was just referring to his willingness to start being a part of something. He's not going to be withdrawn from the world anymore, but that doesn't mean he;s going to get over Lucrecia. Example:

When Vincent goes to get Death Penalty and Chaos, he finds Lucrecia in that Crystal (which I'm assuming takes place at the end of Disc 2 when Cloud sends everyone off). And he just sighs out, "Lucrecia..." From that, and from future events, I take that maybe as of the ending of FF7 he's ready to stop living in a hole like I said. He shows that by taking part in the Advent Children battles voluntarily (investigating the disease before even rescuing Cloud) and he did agree to help Reeve out at the beggining of DoC. That's his way of giving back. But despite it all, he still can't let go of what happened to Lucrecia. Even in Advent Children, he says, "I never tried forgiving myself."

Killing Hojo should, logically, not make him feel better about Lucrecia. And it doesn't, if the game's story tells us anything. That's how I see it.

 

[Max Payne]

He came to a conclusion regarding his animosity towards Hojo, which was one of the key factors in his story, and he met up with the woman he loved one last time. That was enough.

Killing Hojo was not about making him feel better, it was about closing the chapter on a hard part of his life. Not all stories end in all threads being settled. Many people live their lives without putting past events with people they loved to bed, and that's what I liked about Vincent's story in FF7. He did what he could to put an end to the madness he let foster under his watchful eye, thus redeeming himself somewhat.

And we're not talking about advent children, we're talking about his original story in FF7, and whether or not it was suitable. Vincent's story was not enough to justify an entire game of unwarranted wangst and bad shooting mechanics.

 

[ElMonk86]

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=672.msg29499#msg29499 date=1236838381]
He came to a conclusion regarding his animosity towards Hojo, which was one of the key factors in his story, and he met up with the woman he loved one last time. That was enough.
[/quote]
Well, in your opinion, it was. I know the game was made to make a buck, but the creators must've thought there was more to be resolved if they decided to make Vincent a priority again.

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=672.msg29499#msg29499 date=1236838381]
Killing Hojo was not about making him feel better, it was about closing the chapter on a hard part of his life. Not all stories end in all threads being settled. Many people live their lives without putting past events with people they loved to bed, and that's what I liked about Vincent's story in FF7. He did what he could to put an end to the madness he let foster under his watchful eye, thus redeeming himself somewhat.
[/quote]
Yeah, somewhat, but not fully (once again, according to the makers). And fully is what they were going for with DoC, I suppose. And closing a chapter on a hard part of his life would make him feel better. The two go hand in hand. And like you said, not everything in FF7 ended neatly tied up. Like I said, Vincent was still sore over Lucrecia, which makes him still feel guilty even if he's not punishing himself anymore. And the writers decided to use that to make some more money for DoC.

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=672.msg29499#msg29499 date=1236838381]
And we're not talking about advent children, we're talking about his original story in FF7, and whether or not it was suitable. Vincent's story was not enough to justify an entire game of unwarranted wangst and bad shooting mechanics.
[/quote]
Yeah, but if I was to make my point clearly, I NEEDED to talk about Vince's actions in AC. Because it's the bridge between FF7 and DoC. Unlike the others, his baggage is carried over after FF7.

I guess I'm the type of person who leaves the storytelling to the storytellers. I thought DoC was a much more suitable closure to Vincent. It answered alot of questions I had anyway.

 

[Max Payne]

Well, in your opinion, it was. I know the game was made to make a buck, but the creators must've thought there was more to be resolved if they decided to make Vincent a priority again.

I'd say it was more room to exploited than anything.

Yeah, somewhat, but not fully (once again, according to the makers). And fully is what they were going for with DoC, I suppose.

There was nothing that really needed any further development as far as the plot goes imo. Just because it could be expanded doesn't mean it was necessary.

And closing a chapter on a hard part of his life would make him feel better. The two go hand in hand.

No they don't. Not at all.

Yeah, but if I was to make my point clearly, I NEEDED to talk about Vince's actions in AC. Because it's the bridge between FF7 and DoC. Unlike the others, his baggage is carried over after FF7.

As far as discussing whether or not Vincent's story was resolved satisfactorily in FF7 goes, AC is irrelevant.

I guess I'm the type of person who leaves the storytelling to the storytellers.

Which I had done with FF7, and DoC. This has no reflection on whether or not the expansion was necessary.

 

[Masamune]

Vincent's character arc was resolved. To postulate otherwise is to deny the existence of FFVII. That's not to say they couldn't inject a new plotline for him in the Compilation, but to essentially go over the same one was very poor direction from SE.

To reiterate, Vincent is a positively boring main character. His elusive and stoic nature is not enough to push the plot forward. He's just sorta....there...while everything else goes on around him. Why does he have his own fanbase? Because he's the mysterious dark stranger who broods in the shadows whilst the others take centre-stage. Putting the onus of the game on his shoulders really bogged things down. His character also flip-flopped throughout the game. One minute he cares about stuff, then next he'll be twirling his cape and giving a 'liek whatever' and reverting to type.

I also agree with Dacon, I liked the ambiguity of his relationship with Lucrecia. In DoC, it was just so sugary. Lucrecia was merely misguided in her actions, and Hojo was really the only villain of the piece.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

There was nothing that really needed any further development as far as the plot goes imo.

And IMO we didn't need to meet Red's dad or see Cid into space, because IMO I don't give much of a shit about those characters. But for those of us who actually give a shit about Vincent, we wanted moar. If you think Vincent's story didn't need anything further than FF7 then you clearly didn't spend years puzzling over the things that didn't make sense or were just given up on.

As a fan, I'm a bit insulted by the suggestion that Vincent shouldn't have gotten more love than FF7 gave him. Vincent got shafted in FF7 because he was an optional character, and as ElMonk already pointed out, even Yuffie got a more thorough side quest. Respect that there are those of us who did want to see more. One could even argue that on that merit alone it was in fact "needed."

But it doesn't matter if Vincent "needed" his own game, because they didn't decide to make a shooter because Vincent needed a game. They decided to use Vincent because they wanted to make a shooter, and he's a better action hero than the other choices they had available. (Barret? Irvine? Come on.)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ravynne does make a good point.

It really is a matter of opinion and preference and while Vincent's arc was done in FFVII, that doesn't undermind or change the fact that there was still more that could've been done with it and clearly there were more fans out there who wanted to explore Vincent's past.

In the end, *none* of the Compilation of FFVII is needed. It's all about looking at revisiting various characters and points of the story to tell interesting and fun stories for the sake of the fans and enriching the FFVII mythology. No a Vincent game may not have been needed. But the same could be said for Zack, Cloud, the Turks, and the On the Way to a Smile stories.

I suppose its a matter of how the execution of the game went down but I personally think it was pretty good. Wasn't perfect, and it could've been better but it was still a good little piece that was fun. As for it being a game, it could've been a better shooter. But oh wellz.

 

[Max Payne]

No offense, but I don't give much of a shit about how much more fans of the most generic, stoic loser in FF7 wanted.

But it doesn't matter if Vincent "needed" his own game, because they didn't decide to make a shooter because Vincent needed a game. They decided to use Vincent because they wanted to make a shooter, and he's a better action hero than the other choices they had available. (Barret? Irvine? Come on.)

It matters because it was a poor choice as far as Masamune, me, and many others' opinions go. Vincent is just as bad a choice as Barret and Irving. At least those two had personality. We all know the story of the game's conception, that's nothing new. But the fact of the matter is we think it shouldn't have been about Vincent.

Yep, the compilation isn't needed. At all. It's full of subpar material, with a few high points that still get marred by the bad choices in them. DoC is complete garbage. Good for you people who enjoyed it, but it's garbage as far as I'm concerned. It's full of awful gameplay design and a laughable "story". I could have done without the entirety of the compilation, but I found Before Crisis, AC, and CC to be interesting to a degree with some noticeably novel ideas in them, but DoC had none of that.

I don't have to "respect" anything. That's absolutely silly. I don't think Vincent should have gotten anything else because he's a boring character with an uninteresting personality. That's my opinion, I'm sorry that insults you but you know what? Get over it.

As the Makofag said, it's all about opinion, and clearly I share the same opinion as most game reviewers, and that's unlikely to change.

Thank god that CC was the last game in the compilation for a while, because it would be awful for them to have ended it on a sour note with DoC, leaving a bitter taste in many fans' mouths.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And Vincent hates you too, Baconator.

Although I am glad CC was the last game for the Compilation too, because it truly is the strongest one of the bunch and didn't feel rushed or anything.

But meh. Fuck you and your Vincent hate. If they'd have gone ballsout with DC it could've been truly epic. Vincent's character or role in FFVII was hardly shit. Don't know how you could hate on him for his persona and history really. They really didn't devote enough time, design, resources, or energy to this game like it should've gotten. They were too busy fucking around with KH2 and the people who were on DC were new and shit.

But yeah, oh well. The great thing about the Compilation is that you can come into it for your own reasons. Don't like Vincent or DC, then don't buy it. Only interested in the Shinra side of things and Zack? Well that's what CC and BC are for. Are you in it only to see the original characters again for their final silver screen performance? That's what AC is for. You can appreciate it for whatever reason you like. It's not like Vincent has a fucking gun to your head and force feeding you this stuff.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't hate Vincent. He's just a boring character.

A short film about him would have sufficed if they wanted to elaborate on his "story". Better than fucking Denzel anyway.

DoC was just a project that was on the wrong road from the start. If they were that interested in making a "shooter" they could have went and done some research with studios that make shooting games like Hideo Kojima did, and learned more about the development of the games.

Shoulda just started their own new IP for their shooter/action game. It would have been fine that way, and no one would have complained about resources being used on a mediocre game like DoC.

And your last point is stupid, and you're stupid. Anyone who was a big fan of FF7 was likely to play whatever title the Compilation released that they could, because the game holds a special part in the lives, and their interest was bound to peak. Everyone was bound to at least try it.

And I did, and I thought it was an awful waste of potential. Fuck you and your inability to acknowledge flaws in anything Makofart.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess Mrs. Bacon missed the part where I said it was rushed, could've been better, and didn't get enough time, resources, design, or energy....

Yeah. DC was totally perfect. Yup.

I see DC's flaws and what it could've been and it saddens me. But I also enjoy what I have and while its not nearly as good as CC or AC, I still have fun with it. Not turning my eyes away from the truth, just appreciating what I got.

And my mistake. You don't hate Vincent. You hate Denzel. Gotcha.

Also, while Vincent's melancholy disposition is still around in regards to Lucrecia, I don't think you can say all of his development from FFVII was tossed out the window. Look at Chapter 6 when DG pwn the fuck out of the WRO, and Reeve is about to throw in the towel and blame himself and get discouraged.

Reeve: I'm so ashamed.
Reeve: I am supposed to be a hero of the Jenova War.
Reeve: But look at me.
Vincent: Don't take all the blame.
Vincent: You're not thinking of giving up, are you?
Vincent: I used to be nothing but a stone in the river of time, but three
years ago it was you and the others who taught me I had to move ahead.
Reeve: Vincent...

That is NOT the same apathetic, and aloof Vincent Valentine of FFVII who really didn't start caring about things until near the end of the story. Vincent is definitely part of this world and acknowledges the change and lessons he learned from the heroes after they woke him up out of his coffin. He acknowledges how he learned to move on and live life and not just punish himself.

And in DC he isn't punishing himself like he did before. He's merely forlorn over Lucrecia. And that's not a bad thing. Vincent has a heart, and while he's moving on with his life and not just sleeping and punishing himself, he can't help but feel love for the woman he loved for so long.

 

[Max Payne]

I guess Mrs. Bacon missed the part where I said it was rushed, could've been better, and didn't get enough time, resources, design, or energy....

Yeah. DC was totally perfect. Yup.

I see DC's flaws and what it could've been and it saddens me. But I also enjoy what I have and while its not nearly as good as CC or AC, I still have fun with it. Not turning my eyes away from the truth, just appreciating what I got

My comments about DoC's quality weren't directed at you genius. The last bit was a crack at you. Lrn2reading comprehension.

And my mistake. You don't hate Vincent. You hate Denzel. Gotcha.

Damn right.

Also, while Vincent's melancholy disposition is still around in regards to Lucrecia, I don't think you can say all of his development from FFVII was tossed out the window. Look at Chapter 6 when DG pwn the fuck out of the WRO, and Reeve is about to throw in the towel and blame himself and get discouraged.



That is NOT the same apathetic, and aloof Vincent Valentine of FFVII who really didn't start caring about things until near the end of the story. Vincent is definitely part of this world and acknowledges the change and lessons he learned from the heroes after they woke him up out of his coffin. He acknowledges how he learned to move on and live life and not just punish himself.

And in DC he isn't punishing himself like he did before. He's merely forlorn over Lucrecia. And that's not a bad thing. Vincent has a heart, and while he's moving on with his life and not just sleeping and punishing himself, he can't help but feel love for the woman he loved for so long.

Ok? He still bores me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So much for being reasonable.

Anyways, thank god the US audience wasn't as shafted as the Japanese. I weep for them getting that crummy Japanese version of DC. Thats just...fucked up indeed. I'd feel really upset over that one, to be honest.

Meh, anyways, while most fans would like all of the Compilation, the fact is, is that everyone has their own favorite characters and tastes. And while as a whole FFVII is liked, I'm sure a hater of Cait Sith, would not be enthused to play a game based on him if one were to come out.

Likewise, you like FFVII Dacon, but I"m sure you find no interest whatsoever of reading Case of Denzel. It just isn't for you. Some people feel the same way about other characters soo...they can just ignore it and focus on what they DO like. While we fans of Vincent can enjoy what Vincent shit we get. Sadly it wasn't the best but I still like DC for its story at least, and I get a laugh doing some of the extra missions now and then.

 

[Max Payne]

Anyways, thank god the US audience wasn't as shafted as the Japanese. I weep for them getting that crummy Japanese version of DC. Thats just...fucked up indeed. I'd feel really upset over that one, to be honest.

I really don't think it would have made much of a difference. Japanese folks really aren't big on shooting games.

Meh, anyways, while most fans would like all of the Compilation,

Fallacy. A heavy portion of the haters of the compilation are FF7 fans. I remember there was an attempt at making an Anti-Compilation club on ACF for fans who thought FF7 was the best thing ever and the compilation blasphemy. I'd say there's probably the same amount of haters, as people who love the compilation.

Likewise, you like FFVII Dacon, but I"m sure you find no interest whatsoever of reading Case of Denzel. It just isn't for you.

WRONG. I don't like Denzel but the insight the story offered into the post meteor crisis world of FF7 was far more interesting than anything in DoC. It's the reason I read the bloomin book.

While we fans of Vincent can enjoy what Vincent shit we get. Sadly it wasn't the best but I still like DC for its story at least, and I get a laugh doing some of the extra missions now and then.

Good for you. I'll continue arguing in the favor of quality versus mediocre fanservice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That anti-Compilation club had like 4 members. Vagrant started it. Not quite indicative of what you're talking about. Neither are the Compilation sales. And its not surprising at all that FFVII's harshest critics would be FFVII fans. That's pretty obvious.

And you took my words out of context anyways. I meant, most fans would like all of the Compilation in regards to getting all the installments. I was fucking agreeing with you, you crazy bastard. "Anyone who was a big fan of FF7 was likely to play whatever title the Compilation released that they could, because the game holds a special part in the lives, and their interest was bound to peak. Everyone was bound to at least try it." That's true. But there's also the fact, that there are fans of certain characters, and fans who hate certain characters. It's just reality. I doubt a fan who hated Zack or Vincent would've been arsed to buy DC or CC. Maybe rent it or watch the cutscenes online. But not shell out the cash to own it. That's just common sense.

And I thought you said you didn't really read Case of Denzel. Oh well, I stand corrected.

It doesn't have to be about quality vs. fanservice. Stop being so dichotomous. Sadly Vincent's game wasn't the highest quality but that doesn't mean any fanservice is doomed to low quality. Quit ridding on the one low point of the Compilation you negative fucking Nancy.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Tbh the game was wank in every aspect.
Not only was it appauling graphically but the whole plotline was fucked.
I can understand them trying to move away from the RPG franchise and work on a shooter for something new but all in all it was a really shit choice.

The plotline was absolute shit in every aspect, developing deepground and trying to reincorporate the whole chaos and omega thing was just weak.
The even managed have cutscenes showing the other FF characters do essentially fuck all.
I mean you see the entire cast of FFVII going into battle ad the original character of the original series (aka the badass of the games) is seen riding fenrir and then nothing.

I loved Vincent as a character but tbh the whole game was not needed in the slightest. Even trying to develop the backplot of lucresia was not needed, we already knew he loved her we didnt need a back drop of her descent into madness and the birth of a kiddy fiddler icon from Vincent and Shelke.

All in all the game was NOT needed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The even managed have cutscenes showing the other FF characters do essentially fuck all.
I mean you see the entire cast of FFVII going into battle ad the original character of the original series (aka the badass of the games) is seen riding fenrir and then nothing.

That pissed the hell out of me. You see Cloud and Rosso the Crimson..one of the strongest Tsviets with a triple S threat rank clash in one of the most epic battles in Midgar...

And then nothing. That was so fucking unfair and lame its not even funny. I hated how they shafted the other main characters so Vincent could have all the fun. I mean, I understand not wanting the characters to take the focus from Vincent but you're supposed to balance that shit. Not make it where Vincent does everything and all the other characters who've clearly saved the world and done some pretty impressive shit, look like cheerleaders. That type of characterization and direction is needed as much as a hole in the head.

DC wasn't needed. However, a good DC with more time and actual good shooter gameplay and directing and LENGTH would've been a welcome addition. Sadly DC is like the red headed bastard step-child of the Compilation. Fun its own, unique ways, but...never quite fitting in.

 

[Max Payne]

That anti-Compilation club had like 4 members. Vagrant started it. Not quite indicative of what you're talking about. Neither are the Compilation sales. And its not surprising at all that FFVII's harshest critics would be FFVII fans. That's pretty obvious.

Ms. Loz had started that club. And there were 6 members, but the club was closed before any else joined it. It wasn't meant to represent "OMIGAWD EREWUN HATES COMPILATION".

And you took my words out of context anyways. I meant, most fans would like all of the Compilation in regards to getting all the installments. I was fucking agreeing with you, you crazy bastard. "Anyone who was a big fan of FF7 was likely to play whatever title the Compilation released that they could, because the game holds a special part in the lives, and their interest was bound to peak. Everyone was bound to at least try it." That's true. But there's also the fact, that there are fans of certain characters, and fans who hate certain characters. It's just reality. I doubt a fan who hated Zack or Vincent would've been arsed to buy DC or CC. Maybe rent it or watch the cutscenes online. But not shell out the cash to own it. That's just common sense.

You're not saying anything that isn't already obvious. I didn't buy DOC, but I still played it. Same with CC.

And I thought you said you didn't really read Case of Denzel. Oh well, I stand corrected.

I said I read it a long time ago...I think. Either way, I hate Denzel, not the stories he's featured in. I didn't like Squall at all but still loved FF8.

It doesn't have to be about quality vs. fanservice.

It does when a game is made as an experiment and has the FF7 moniker slapped on it to ensure the game isn't a total failure. They knew fangirls would eat that shit up regardless of quality.

Stop being so dichotomous.

no.

Quit ridding on the one low point of the Compilation you negative fucking Nancy.

One low point? Lol sure kid. I wouldn't call DoC a low point. It was a bloody failure as far as I'm concerned. The other games(the ones I had the chance of playing) have their faults and stupid shit, but DoC is so chock full of it that it's in a league of it's own.