My take on why Rinoa is Ultimecia and what to make of the ending

[OlderSquall]

"Rinoa is Ultimecia" is to Final Fantasy what Sheng Long is to Street Fighter.

Then explain both of them saying to Squall for them to dance together and the uncanny image of Ultimecia doing the same pose as Rinoa? It’s hard to explain that all of it is a coincidence….

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ultimecia is a master troll, and she's able to read Squall's mind.

That's why she's able to pull his image of "the ultimate GF" that is his Griever OC (lol), and literally create a new GF lifeform for her to junction with so she can attack Squall.

She's a Sorceress who has the ability to manipulate time, read minds and create life from inanimate artwork.

 

[OlderSquall]

Ultimecia is a master troll, and she's able to read Squall's mind.

That's why she's able to pull his image of "the ultimate GF" that is his Griever OC (lol), and literally create a new GF lifeform for her to junction with so she can attack Squall.

She's a Sorceress who has the ability to manipulate time, read minds and create life from inanimate artwork.

Maybe she is, at the same time I don’t see her being as all knowing as God. If she has no recall or very little of her own memories and is driven by heavily negative emotions (rage, hate, fear, sadness, despair, desperation, etc) I don’t see her being able to troll people like that. Griever was an item she already possessed and junctioned to it long before the fight. The only way she would have known of griever would be Squall since he gave Rinoa the ring and so on. It raises a lot of questions.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

If that is indeed the case, you should be worried if there is some sort of FF8 remake or sequel:

'Fan appeal for the character affected later Capcom titles, with public requests for the inclusion of Sheng Long in an actual video game leading to the consideration of his inclusion in the The Movie video game and years later resulting in the appearance of Gouken as both a secret boss and playable character in Street Fighter IV. ' [wiki]

The difference between the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory and the Sheng Long hoax is that the former is a fan theory that we all talked about for years only to be debunked by the publisher while the latter was an April Fools hoax. "Sheng Long" was eventually revealed to be a translation error that was supposed to refer to the Dragon Punch/Shoryuken...this translation error was fixed in the SNES versions of the SF2 games and in recent versions of SF2 (such as Ultra Street Fighter II), but I will concede to the point that the Sheng Long hoax eventually led to the creation of Akuma and Gouken down the road (though I don't recall a character named Sheng Long ever being in the finished product of The Movie game, either the arcade version or the console version, though I do know that the aforementioned Akuma was in both). The point that still stands though is the fact that both "Rinoa is Ultimecia" and "Sheng Long is a character in SF" were both debunked.

Now if you're talking about the theory eventually coming to fruition in something like a reboot or an alternate universe type of game, then the appropriate comparison would be Ermac, who was a originally a bullshit rumor based on the diagnostics menu in the first Mortal Kombat game, only to be finally be made legit in Ultimate MK3.

 

[Roundhouse]

'I will concede to the point that the Sheng Long hoax eventually led to the creation of Akuma and Gouken down the road'

That's all I meant, yeah. A nonsense fan rumour that turned into something tangible later.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Maybe she is, at the same time I don’t see her being as all knowing as God. If she has no recall or very little of her own memories and is driven by heavily negative emotions (rage, hate, fear, sadness, despair, desperation, etc) I don’t see her being able to troll people like that. Griever was an item she already possessed and junctioned to it long before the fight. The only way she would have known of griever would be Squall since he gave Rinoa the ring and so on. It raises a lot of questions.

No, she literally materializes Griever out of Squall's mind right there in the battle. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Griever literally did not exist until it manifested during the final battle of the game. The Japanese translation of the game makes it explicit that Ultimecia literally "draws" Griever from Squall's mind. She states:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu."

And Griever appears.

The scan data from the game says:

"Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing."

It literally came out of his head. Ultimecia CAN create life. Look at the boss enemies in her castle that guard the sealed abilities of the party.

Tri-Point
"A living weapon Ultimecia made out of a dragon. Fire or Ice are it's weak points, but they change when attacked."

Krysta
"Born of a jewel in Ultimecia's Castle. Responds quicky to attacks. Counterattacks immediately."

Trauma
"Ultimecia gave partial life to this weapon of the future. Pulse cannon destroys any enemies in it's way."

And don't forget Ultimecia, through Edea, brought the Iguion statues to life in Deling City. Her Witch power is literally bestowing life.

 

[OlderSquall]

No, she literally materializes Griever out of Squall's mind right there in the battle. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Griever literally did not exist until it manifested during the final battle of the game. The Japanese translation of the game makes it explicit that Ultimecia literally "draws" Griever from Squall's mind. She states:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu."

And Griever appears.

The scan data from the game says:

"Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing."

It literally came out of his head. Ultimecia CAN create life. Look at the boss enemies in her castle that guard the sealed abilities of the party.

Tri-Point
"A living weapon Ultimecia made out of a dragon. Fire or Ice are it's weak points, but they change when attacked."

Krysta
"Born of a jewel in Ultimecia's Castle. Responds quicky to attacks. Counterattacks immediately."

Trauma
"Ultimecia gave partial life to this weapon of the future. Pulse cannon destroys any enemies in it's way."

And don't forget Ultimecia, through Edea, brought the Iguion statues to life in Deling City. Her Witch power is literally bestowing life.

Then why would she have all of the GFs from the team? Why would she have various Weapon bosses that only the team fought and survived? I am simply stating that these things are not adding up. It raises too many questions. I am not believer in too many coincidences. One? Maybe. Two? Questionable. Three? No. Four? Absolutely not.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not sure what you're talking about. What GFs, weapon bosses?

 

[OlderSquall]

Not sure what you're talking about. What GFs, weapon bosses?

Both Tiamat (corrupt Bahamut) and Omega
Weapon (based on Ultima Weapon) are seen at her castle. Only the team fought and beat them.

Also all drawable GFs can be found at Ultimecia’s castle. How did that happen unless she kept all of them when her team died since she would outlive them?

Finally, highly unlikely she would draw Griever for the first time in the biggest fight of her life. She’s had it for a long long time.

More info here:http://www.heartilly.com/rinoa/article_ultimecia.html

All of the evidence leads me to believe that Ultimecia is the future version of Rinoa.

 

[Lestat]

You keep saying evidence like it's proven fact instead of just surmised conjecture that hasn't already been dismissed by the game creator.

 

[OlderSquall]

You keep saying evidence like it's proven fact instead of just surmised conjecture that hasn't already been dismissed by the game creator.

Actions speak louder than words. If Tyler Durden omitted the fact him and Jack were the same person and the creators said they weren’t but all the information and evidence leaned towards it being that they were the same person what would you believe? Your eyes and the evidence or a person’s words?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Haha To be fair, a person's words, notably that of a creator, can still be evidence in and of itself—besides the outlier of times where there's something misspoken or later proven to change from an interview.

But, I think Lestat's point is that as far as evidence goes, your overall conclusion is contrary to other evident things that actually aren't contrary to the evidence you're using in the first place. Meaning, Kitase saying they're not the same person doesn't conflict with whatever evident parallels exist between the two characters in the story. The statement is still supported by the game not having that plot point directly, and the fact that them being the same person doesn't have to be the most congruent reason for said "coincidences". If your conclusion was something akin to "I believe there were deliberate parallels written for Rinoa and Ultimecia's character representations for symbolic or thematic reasons", which as far as I'm aware would not conflict with any evidence available, then that'd probably be better than a conclusion that does conflict. Otherwise, somewhere a leap is made and conclusions are drawn based on proposed incomplete information when there really might not be any, like the assumption that one piece of evidence is really false based on other information that doesn't actually prove or imply it to be false. It's a hard road to be on when you're trying to be as strict as possible.

Fun af for talking about hypotheticals, though, but maybe not for strong conclusions of probability. But hey, the fact that it was even brought up in an interview shows you're not the only one whose thoughts went that direction—I didn't even know that existed. But, even based on what Kitase said, I think the line of thought I mentioned earlier is probably better if you're trying to talk more strictly as opposed to loose hypothetical.

 

[Lestat]

Actions speak louder than words. If Tyler Durden omitted the fact him and Jack were the same person and the creators said they weren’t but all the information and evidence leaned towards it being that they were the same person what would you believe? Your eyes and the evidence or a person’s words?

On a total parallel train of thought what's your take on Jessie being a love interest to cloud in the ff7 remake?

 

[Erotic Materia]

On a total parallel train of thought what's your take on Jessie being a love interest to cloud in the ff7 remake?

I have nothing to add, FF8 is hot garbage, suck it nerds

 

[OlderSquall]

On a total parallel train of thought what's your take on Jessie being a love interest to cloud in the ff7 remake?

Never thought about it to be honest. I suppose it would be interesting.

 

[OlderSquall]

Haha To be fair, a person's words, notably that of a creator, can still be evidence in and of itself—besides the outlier of times where there's something misspoken or later proven to change from an interview.

But, I think Lestat's point is that as far as evidence goes, your overall conclusion is contrary to other evident things that actually aren't contrary to the evidence you're using in the first place. Meaning, Kitase saying they're not the same person doesn't conflict with whatever evident parallels exist between the two characters in the story. The statement is still supported by the game not having that plot point directly, and the fact that them being the same person doesn't have to be the most congruent reason for said "coincidences". If your conclusion was something akin to "I believe there were deliberate parallels written for Rinoa and Ultimecia's character representations for symbolic or thematic reasons", which as far as I'm aware would not conflict with any evidence available, then that'd probably be better than a conclusion that does conflict. Otherwise, somewhere a leap is made and conclusions are drawn based on proposed incomplete information when there really might not be any, like the assumption that one piece of evidence is really false based on other information that doesn't actually prove or imply it to be false. It's a hard road to be on when you're trying to be as strict as possible.

Fun af for talking about hypotheticals, though, but maybe not for strong conclusions of probability. But hey, the fact that it was even brought up in an interview shows you're not the only one whose thoughts went that direction—I didn't even know that existed. But, even based on what Kitase said, I think the line of thought I mentioned earlier is probably better if you're trying to talk more strictly as opposed to loose hypothetical.

I suppose time will tell. I hope they do more work with FF8 and can flush out these things Better.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Both Tiamat (corrupt Bahamut) and Omega
Weapon (based on Ultima Weapon) are seen at her castle. Only the team fought and beat them.

Those are enemies/monsters from the future. Why wouldn't they be there? I have no idea what connection you're making. They aren't fought anywhere else except the future. So no, Squall and the others have not seen them before except in that castle.

Also all drawable GFs can be found at Ultimecia’s castle. How did that happen unless she kept all of them when her team died since she would outlive them?

Think for a second. Those GFs are only drawable from Ultimecia's minions if you've failed to obtain them from their proper locations earlier in the game. In essence, in a branch where Squall and the others literally fail to use or obtain any GFs throughout the whole story, they find themselves there to be obtained. Ultimecia doesn't "have" every GF. Because they're naturally meant to be elsewhere in the game. That's only the game's failsafe for people who may have skipped them on their first playthrough.

Finally, highly unlikely she would draw Griever for the first time in the biggest fight of her life. She’s had it for a long long time.

The game literally says so. I just quoted it's profile to you and what Ulti says. Griever didn't exist, it's made up until she materialized it from Squall's mind.

That website is literally riddled with misinformation. Again, Witches are not immortal. They have normal human lifespans. They can't die until they pass on their powers but that doesn't make them immortal. That makes them wander in a state of suffering on the brink of death, looking for the first woman they see to pass on their power before they expire. The FFVIII Ultimania literally makes that point explicit; witches are not immortal. They have normal human lifespans.

 

[OlderSquall]

Those are enemies/monsters from the future. Why wouldn't they be there? I have no idea what connection you're making. They aren't fought anywhere else except the future. So no, Squall and the others have not seen them before except in that castle.



Think for a second. Those GFs are only drawable from Ultimecia's minions if you've failed to obtain them from their proper locations earlier in the game. In essence, in a branch where Squall and the others literally fail to use or obtain any GFs throughout the whole story, they find themselves there to be obtained. Ultimecia doesn't "have" every GF. Because they're naturally meant to be elsewhere in the game. That's only the game's failsafe for people who may have skipped them on their first playthrough.



The game literally says so. I just quoted it's profile to you and what Ulti says. Griever didn't exist, it's made up until she materialized it from Squall's mind.

That website is literally riddled with misinformation. Again, Witches are not immortal. They have normal human lifespans. They can't die until they pass on their powers but that doesn't make them immortal. That makes them wander in a state of suffering on the brink of death, looking for the first woman they see to pass on their power before they expire. The FFVIII Ultimania literally makes that point explicit; witches are not immortal. They have normal human lifespans.

If a witch cannot die until they hand over their power that makes them immortal by default. Of course the exception being the final battle. The other connections might be coincidental but again what are the odds? All of the gfs can be found within her castle. Why would they give a failsafe like that when FF usually isn’t that forgiving? Her castle is right by where Rinoa and Squall agreed to meet up. It just raises too many questions as well as Rinoa’s foreshadowing of becoming evil or the world’s enemy down the line and if that were to happen Rinoa wanted to die by Squall’s hand. Even in Disiddia FF he said he came to fulfill his promise, one could interpret that as not only meeting with her again but also to pierce her heart. Quite possibly in that game he knew Rinoa and Ultimecia were the same person. A bit of a stretch? Perhaps.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No it does not, because that literally makes them wander looking for the next host for their power. Which they will find as long as they aren't the last living human being in existence. They aren't living so much as suffering in limbo until they can complete one singular task before they're given the sweet release of death that they are desperate for.

Again, their lifespan, the time they are afforded to live, breathe and function like a living sentient person, is the same as any other human. Them being compelled and trapped by their power is no more living than a vegetable on a life extension machine with no brain activity.

 

[OlderSquall]

No it does not, because that literally makes them wander looking for the next host for their power. Which they will find as long as they aren't the last living human being in existence. They aren't living so much as suffering in limbo until they can complete one singular task before they're given the sweet release of death that they are desperate for.

Again, their lifespan, the time they are afforded to live, breathe and function like a living sentient person, is the same as any other human. Them being compelled and trapped by their power is no more living than a vegetable on a life extension machine with no brain activity.

If that were true then Adel would be suffering and wandering like there was no tomorrow. I know she was frozen for a minute but still. Or Ultimecia would not exist for as long as she did. Perhaps Ultimecia is a parasitic entity that needs a host to survive hence why the final boss had the empty husk with the hanging body below.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Adel's powers were passed onto Rinoa Heartily.

 

[OlderSquall]

Adel's powers were passed onto Rinoa Heartily.

Of course, but Adel did not look sickly or on the brink of death from where I was standing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I... Never said she did?

I was referring to your statement that a Sorceress is immortal since they don't pass on until they pass on their power. I stated that's not immortality because if a Witch were dying & prevented from passing on their power, they'd wander until they found someone, suffering and in pain as they teetered on the brink of life and death in the process. Like Ultimecia did.

 

[OlderSquall]

I... Never said she did?

I was referring to your statement that a Sorceress is immortal since they don't pass on until they pass on their power. I stated that's not immortality because if a Witch were dying & prevented from passing on their power, they'd wander until they found someone, suffering and in pain as they teetered on the brink of life and death in the process. Like Ultimecia did.

Ultimecia did not look like she was weak or suffering though. She came off pretty freaking strong to me. Holding onto their powers slows down their aging and they can outlive humans. At some point perhaps they hand over their power and die a peaceful death but until then they come off pretty tough to me.

 

[Sprites]

Of course, but Adel did not look sickly or on the brink of death from where I was standing.

She was defeated by Squall and Co I think that more than counts for her being on the brink of death?

Ultimecia did not look like she was weak or suffering though. She came off pretty freaking strong to me. Holding onto their powers slows down their aging and they can outlive humans. At some point perhaps they hand over their power and die a peaceful death but until then they come off pretty tough to me.

.....did you watch the ending at all? Where she's literally staggering towards Edea and Squall after being completely beat by the party and says " I can't disappear yet" as in she can't pass on until she's given up her powers and then once she gives them to Edea, collapses and dies? No? Did we not watch the same ending?

Look I'm all for a good theory but this one's been debunked. You can look at it and go what if hypothetically this happened but come on, don't go making stuff up just to support it.