If you as a staff member did that I'd demand to have you removed from your position for breaching rules yet again. If some random person did it I'd probably just walk away. Shit happens. But as staff members it's clearly your duty to respond to the arguments of members, at least if you want to be taken seriously.
No, I wouldn't say that as a Staff member, but what would you do if Yop said it? Demand he be de-admined? Oh that's right, you can't, because he owns the site. The best thing you could possibly do about it is complain or leave.
I dunno. I've never had that problem because my bosses are civilised human beings. If I were in a job where that were a problem, then depending on the economy and my appreciation of the job I'd either suck it up or find a better job.
Well, from observing how this instance went over, I think you could probably infer that in the future gauging the public's reaction before staffing someone would be a much better idea.
Really? It seems that the problems raised regarding this appointment would've happened regardless of if we said it before, or after. It was about who he was and his credentials, not about when or how it was announced. And I honestly don't see why there is no sense of good faith or trust in the staff's one appointment we've done to replace an AWOL staffer. What's the point in us being given the trust and responsibility to use our judgment as staff if its going to be completely mistrusted? I could see this level of dubiousness and doubt if the guy was suddenly made the admin of our site or something, but for something as mundane as a moderator? That really confuses me.
This strikes me as a pretty poor analogy, since there are substantial differences between a forum and a business. The sole aim of a business is to generate profits for its shareholders. Honestly, this generates a lot of problems in our society, but that's a rant for another thread. A forum, by contrast, has to please most of its member base most of the time if it wants to maintain a decent level of activity, which I assume you guys do (though some things I've seen make me wonder). There may be the completely off chance every once in awhile that an outsider will be able to come in and understand the community perfectly, but generally it seems to me that in nearly all cases, someone who knows the community already and has a pretty good gauging of what the members want would be a much better choice than someone who's completely new to the forum, no matter how much experience that person has moderating other communities. The simple fact is that each community is completely unique. Insights gleaned from one community may be somewhat helpful on others, but they can't be transferred over one to one. Expecting a person with little experience at a forum to be able to moderate that forum's users as well as someone who's been there from the beginning is putting a pretty high demand on that person, and honestly I think it's both unwise and, really, unfair.
Knowing Tres, I and other staff are more than confident he'll be a great addition to staff and he'll fall under those "completely off chances every once in awhile." Tres isn't going to be doing it alone, and we'll of course be helping him. If things go wrong, we'll be on top of it. In fact, I'll take personal responsibility for it. And honestly, I don't see how it's unfair to anyone seeing as how we had no plans of promising anyone else moderator status, nor made any agreements either.
Anyways, it's getting late, and I'm gonna have to get to bed for work. I hope you don't take our disagreement personally and will give Tres a chance. Don't know if it means anything but I certainly don't think less of you over a disagreement here or whatever. It's just the way life is.
Chrono Compendium has unparalleled information about its franchise, so again it's not really a fair comparison. Does it even have a forum? Last I checked it didn't, though admittedly it's been years.
Really? It seems that the problems raised regarding this appointment would've happened regardless of if we said it before, or after. It was about who he was and his credentials, not about when or how it was announced. And I honestly don't see why there is no sense of good faith or trust in the staff's one appointment we've done to replace an AWOL staffer. What's the point in us being given the trust and responsibility to use our judgment as staff if its going to be completely mistrusted? I could see this level of dubiousness and doubt if the guy was suddenly made the admin of our site or something, but for something as mundane as a moderator? That really confuses me.
To be honest if he had just made section moderator of the final fantasy forums I doubt people would care too much, but as a super mod he has access to mod everything on the board. That's a pretty major step for someone who's barely been a member for a month.
And yeah, the problems would have been raised regardless. You may have had to alter your approach, either by giving him less power or by choosing someone else. That's what happens when you base your actions off member feedback, but it generally results in people being more satisfied all around.
I think the principal problem is that we have to trust your judgement of someone else's judgement, without having previously seen anything ourselves of that person's judgement to base our own opinions off of. It's strange.
Knowing Tres, I and other staff are more than confident he'll be a great addition to staff and he'll fall under those "completely off chances every once in awhile." Tres isn't going to be doing it alone, and we'll of course be helping him. If things go wrong, we'll be on top of it.
And honestly, I don't see how it's unfair to anyone seeing as how we had no plans of promising anyone else moderator status, nor made any agreements either.
I already explained my reasoning about this above, but there's really little point in my repeating myself, especially since I can't find where I brought up unfairness in the text you quoted.
Anyways, it's getting late, and I'm gonna have to get to bed for work. I hope you don't take our disagreement personally and will give Tres a chance. Don't know if it means anything but I certainly don't think less of you over a disagreement here or whatever. It's just the way life is.
No, I wouldn't say that as a Staff member, but what would you do if Yop said it? Demand he be de-admined? Oh that's right, you can't, because he owns the site. The best thing you could possibly do about it is complain or leave.
Depending on the information they refused to supply. To be honest I didn't bother paying attention to what the argument was about, because I don't really care.
To be honest if he had just made section moderator of the final fantasy forums I doubt people would care too much, but as a super mod he has access to mod everything on the board. That's a pretty major step for someone who's barely been a member for a month.
Actually I told him that he should stick to just moderating the FF/Compilation sections of the forum for now until he gets more acquainted here and stuff. So you and I were apparently thinking the same thing.
I think the principal problem is that we have to trust your judgement of someone else's judgement, without having previously seen anything ourselves of that person's judgement to base our own opinions off of. It's strange.
Well I see what you're saying but all I can say is please trust our judgment, and really, you'll only be seeing him really mod the FFVII/FF sections, unless something really egregious (such as porn spamming, vitriolic flaming that no one else is around to handle, bot spamming) is going on elsewhere.
Chrono Compendium was so far above any other Chrono site last time I bothered looking that it doesn't really compare. There's lots of stuff on the TLS site that can't be found anywhere else, but there's still a number of other FFVII-focused sites that have good information. If memory serves correctly I've heard there are even other sites that have started to translate the Ultimanias and OtWtaS now too.
Who else provides the content? Did all of the information on the front page of the site get there by magic?
Last I looked only a few people on forum staff actually submitted content for the front site. Correct me if that's changed since I was on staff though.
Actually I told him that he should stick to just moderating the FF/Compilation sections of the forum for now until he gets more acquainted here and stuff. So you and I were apparently thinking the same thing.
Ah. To be honest if you'd clarified that he'd been specifically instructed not to mod outside of the FF sections a lot of people's qualms might have been assuaged somewhat.
Well I see what you're saying but all I can say is please trust our judgment, and really, you'll only be seeing him really mod the FFVII/FF sections, unless something really egregious (such as porn spamming, vitriolic flaming that no one else is around to handle, bot spamming) is going on elsewhere.
I have to go to bed too. As to what I think about Tres? I'm open to it. I understand the concerns, but hopefully he'll work out. That's my thoughts on it.
Closing thoughts? Like I said, I believe that it could be argued that a webmaster (which, I know isn't us, or me, but in this case, Yop) don't have any obligation to any of you, or any of us. In the case of any private ownership, the only obligations someone has to their stuff is to what they want it to be, no matter how many people get involved. Whether or not that person (or persons he decided to represent his viewpoint, i.e., a Staff) decides to mitigate the interests of any community that may arise is entirely up to him. That's why, unlike you, Aaron, I don't like to make 'demands' of anyone regarding their stuff.
And believe it or not, Aaron, I've been in your shoes in the site in my sig, arguing against the will of someone who I thought was fucking with the community. Yes, I do believe that fucking over a community that's gathered around your site and has faith in it is fucked up and there is a sort of commitment that should be made, but I disagree that anyone owes anyone anything. This is my own personal off the record opinion and I don't use that opinion when I make decisions here, but it's something to think about, I hope.
I'm out! I have to take my mother to the hospital tomorrow. Something else I'm stressed about.
Chrono Compendium was so far above any other Chrono site last time I bothered looking that it doesn't really compare. There's lots of stuff on the TLS site that can't be found anywhere else, but there's still a number of other FFVII-focused sites that have good information. If memory serves correctly I've heard there are even other sites that have started to translate the Ultimanias and OtWtaS now too.
Mostly, they're cribbing off this site, from what I've seen.
Save Xcomp. He's cool.
Last I looked only a few people on forum staff actually submitted content for the front site. Correct me if that's changed since I was on staff though.
First off, everyone needs to stop all this bullshit back and forth arguing. It looks like it has, though likely only for now, given the parties involved. Everyone chill out and shut the FUCK up. I can't speak for EVERYONE else on the forum, but I'm goddamn tired of reading this ridiculous fucking thread.
First point here before I go and quote about ten posts: no one is questioning the guy's qualifications/worthiness/what the fuck ever (okay, maybe Aaron, but w/e). Aaron's response to this was right on target - "Who?" Personally, I do't give a shit about credentials, staff reasoning, or anything else. But I DO think it's fucking ridiculous for staff to expect people to accept a new moderator if they don't know WHO THE FUCK THE GUY/GIRL IS. I have honestly NEVER heard of this particular member before. Not. Once. Maybe it's because I don't hang about the compilation section (tbh, it bores me since it always seems to be about the same crap, the LTD, barring the occasional good random-ass theory, often supplied by Moogle or Mako - good show, guys, seriously; keep it up, it's interesting!). I'm not asking what hobbies he has or anything else...but is it SO MUCH to expect the new guy to INTRODUCE HIMSELF to the members in his new capacity? Not even a huge thing, just, 'ohai, just made a mod, wish me luck, hope we have fun, w/e w/e'. It's worth noting that the fellow hasn't made ANY POSTS AT ALL IN THIS THREAD since the whole shitstorm began. This already doesn't instill me with a lot of confidence, given that it's ABOUT him. Speak up and don't feel timid, or pay attention, whatever the case may be. Leaves me feeling like he's a lame duck, to be very frank.
For the record, I think it's worth pointing out/reiterating that I don't think anybody wants to personally attack or go after Tres. I'm sure he is a great guy and will make a good moderator. People's issues just seem to be with why and how this decision came about. Since I don't know him personally and he could very well be a nice guy, I just wanted to point this out.
You speak as if that were the only prerequisite evaluated. Considering the fact we wanted to find someone who would be more than capable of filling the qualifications, skills, and posting ability of the mod before (i.e. Schala) Tres was the member who fit the bill, while also exhibiting those traits in the first place. That was our decision and reasoning for doing it. Again, how does finding another individual who had the same qualifications, skills, positive attitude, and experience random?
Because its not just about post count when evaluating who can and can't be a mod. It's about quality, experience, and who the actual member is. I'd like to know where there was ever a post count requirement stated in regards to who got to be a mod here? And I didn't know we had people who deserved and were entitled to be a mod. I must've missed something.
Well thanks but that's your opinion. If we're looking for a member to fill the specific hole left behind by a previous staffer, and we find an experienced member who fills that space in every conceivable way possible and is qualified, then we're not going to let nepotism and popularity stop the person who's more qualified and the better choice stop us. That's the whole point of us exercising our judgment in the first place and evaluating how he works out.
She is an awesome member, and I don't disagree with that at all. But she wasn't the choice for filling in the hole we were looking to fill. That's your opinion and this was ours and the choice we made.
Whoa now, buddy. You're WAY out of line here. Your tone of voice is very, very snarky and a bit rude, and it's totally uncalled for, especially considering she's not a part of the 'usual suspects' when it comes time to use the word 'rabblerousing' (I believe the term "Koolaid kids" was used?). 'That's your opinion but thanks'? Dude...not cool. You talk about wanting a 'fresh set of eyes/new opinion' on things, and then you act like this towards someone providing just that?
And don't give me any 'show me exactly where I was rude' BS, either. We both know exactly what I'm saying, exactly what is meant by it, and that I'm very, very right. Don't do it again, please.
Mako, my point was NEVER that high post counts = istant Mod. My point is that the members don't know Tres well, and that Members who have been here longer who are just as good, weren't chosen. I was wondering why, that's ALL. I never meant that someone with over 9,000 posts should be Admin. Because then you'd have to Mod Ali and she never posts anything anymore. The point is that 127 posts suggests that he hasn't been here that long- and he hasn't. You guys know him and that's cool (I've only heard stories and he seems pretty nice from the posts I've seen), but the members don't seem to. That's why it seems random to a lot of us. I never said it was a contest either, maybe I shouldn't have said "WIN" but I didn't know how else to say it. x'D Just think, you've been a member here a long time, you've been told countless times that you're posts are amazing, that you should be modded, and then a new person who you've seen post a handful of times in one section after joining gets the position? Would that make sense if to you? That's what I've been trying to say.
And I've never once said he was a bad choice or that he'd do bad. In fact I keep saying that he's a great guy. The biggest thing I think, is that Staff here seems to have ignored the members of the Forum on this one. What makes Ten/Aaron/Alex/Meggy/anyone else anyone has mentioned not qualified for the spot? You haven't really answered that at all. >.<
Couple things here. First, agreement. It's just a matter of people KNOWING the guy. Second - er, no. Aaron has no business being back on staff beyond a technical capacity at most, from what I can see (sorry, dude, but you know I'm right); the staff in general doesn't like Alex (it's true, just stating a fact), and since members find him one of the meanest people on site and just generally don't like him - not that he wouldn't be a good choice (and yeah, call me out for sticking up for my mate here if you like, but he's a bastion of sensibility and wit in an otherwise stormy sea), as proved by his general willingness to help out and make things better (see best moments of comp. contest); and lastly, me? Yeah...not so much. I may be reasonable, level-headed, and extremely impartial, but I'm associated with the wrong people, my level of interest in the goings-on here and online in general is waning, I don't really participate enough in the focus of the site, and I'm an unabashed spammer...plus I don't want and haven't been offered the job. Less than ideal.
the fact we as staff made our choice to make him a mod based on who he was, his experience in other FF communities we've been apart of, his past postings, contributions, helpful actions for our own projects, and positive attitude is more than enough reason in our eyes
I will note that elsewhere in this same post Aaron makes a mention of rapport - this is kinda my point as well: the general lack of rapport the fellow has with non-compilation-frequenting members.
Tres has demonstrated rapport since he's been here, and more positive bonds and interactions can be established now and in the future. Do you think he's suddenly not going to post, or talk to members here now that he's not a mod now? Do you think he'll disappear from the forum and only appear to hand out warnings or bans to members?
Apparently not. That's all I'll say. That, and, to be honest, if we're looking at the actions of prior staff as precedent...doesn't instill a lot of confidence, does it?
I will say this, Mako - this applies to ALL of us, including yourself. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and the ability to express it, but no one is entitled to e-power.
Ⓐaron;182932 said:
I'm not seeing how a joking insinuation that someone may or may not have committed fellatio is an insult. It's a joke.
The last time I was joking and said this I got into one of the biggest shitstorms of my entire stay here. I'm beginning to think that some of the people here are pretty selective over the stuff that gets their panties in knots.
There's a difference between implying someone might have sucked cock, and directly ordering them to suck cock after they have given you constructive criticism.
Do you think that Phobos literally meant to imply that Tres fellated the staff members? Because that's what I'm reading here.
I have a problem with the inconsistency. But you're wrong, I don't have a problem with you being laid back. I wish you were more laid back to be honest. Slightly risqué comments don't need to get form letter warnings.
Of course you can joke, anyone can, but you should make it clear you're joking. IIRC there was a huge argument as to whether or not you were joking. I'm not saying the shit storm was justified, in fact it was one of the stranger ones that have come up here, but wasn't the point that people didn't know you were joking?
The problem here was that no one knew you were joking. The fact that you said it as a direct response to a very serious piece of constructive criticism did not help your case in the slightest
This is getting things twisted. The fact is that it was being way too familiar with people you don't know is bad. And, tbh, Mog is right, this is a case of being selective about what's going to be considered bad form/rude/insulting. It's not like it doesn't go both ways.
Mog said:
I just don't get it. I can understand say, Celes having a problem with something here or there (because she doesn't constantly complain), but members like Aaron find fault in almost everything that goes on here.
It's my opinion that if everyone always agreed, this forum would stagnate and die very quickly. Opinions like Aaron's (I'll even toss in the rest of the "Koolaid kids") are rather essential, whether you admit it or not. However, it's rather rude to try and discredit someone because they always have something to say. This is unacceptable, on BOTH sides of the spectrum. You two need to cut that shit out NOW. Tired of fucking seeing it.
This post also implies that having a problem is only allowed if it's every now and again. Don't bother responding to this bit, Mog, since I'm not getting into a conversation about it. Stating an opinion + fact (you and Aaron bit; Aaron, don't reply to this, either).
However in this case, we felt an appointment of someone new who doesn't have their opinions and judgments colored by the previous happenings and interactions with members here, would be a good idea. A blank slate in regards to what goes on here.
Because everyone here on staff is a veteran, and we want a new perspective that isn't one belonging to a veteran or long time member here to give their two cents on matters here. It's a unique and new perspective that hasn't been on staff before.
Well I'm not sure what else I can do to convince you. However, maybe you could be convinced by actually seeing how it works out. It's not like its going to hurt anyone.
Ummm...no. This last bit is unacceptable as an argument to me. Why? See recent ideas on site improvements meeting extreme opposition when suggested as a 'trial basis' idea. This is blatant hypocrisy.
I DO, however, agree with the rest - the idea of a fresh set of eyes. So good show there
Actually I told him that he should stick to just moderating the FF/Compilation sections of the forum for now until he gets more acquainted here and stuff. So you and I were apparently thinking the same thing.
Well I see what you're saying but all I can say is please trust our judgment, and really, you'll only be seeing him really mod the FFVII/FF sections, unless something really egregious (such as porn spamming, vitriolic flaming that no one else is around to handle, bot spamming) is going on elsewhere.
'Trust your judgment' is not an acceptable position with things like this. Just as an fyi.
And only moderating the FF areas is a very bad idea, IN MY OPINION, since it means that he won't be building that all-important rapport/establishing his identity outside of it =/
Ⓐaron;183004 said:
Ah. To be honest if you'd clarified that he'd been specifically instructed not to mod outside of the FF sections a lot of people's qualms might have been assuaged somewhat.
In summation - shut all of the bullshit arguing the fuck up and have the guy speak for his own goddamn self. This thread has infuriated me beyond belief, to the point that I just used a swear I really hate using, multiple times.
J/k. Okay, fair enough about what you said about the people I mentioned I guess, but what about Tennyo? Do you agree with what everyone has been saying about her, at least? c: Just wondering, because she's the only person you didn't comment on. xD
I got no beef with Ten, no, and think she would make an excellent mod, were it not for the fact that I never see her around much these days (though this might be due to ME not being on as much, sooo... ). However, that's all rather beside the point =/
Q: whooooa, now. He's not on trial, and shouldn't be speaking 'in his defense'. But hearing him speak for himself and giving some thoughts and opinions on teh matter at hand would be a good step, imo. This helps build trust with people who are unfamiliar with him, etc.
Or, at least, I know *I'M* not the type to trust someone I've never met, talked to, or heard of before
I guess everyone forgot he posted right in the beginning of the post. And if no one is questioning his qualifications, but how he was appointed, what the hell is he supposed to say? He didn't appoint himself to the post so him trying to speak for our rationale and explain why would be unwarranted. That would be for the rest of us to answer. Expecting him to answer that is kinda odd.
And how was I anything close to snarky in addressing Celes at all? Huh?
'Trust your judgment' is not an acceptable position with things like this. Just as an fyi.
And only moderating the FF areas is a very bad idea, IN MY OPINION, since it means that he won't be building that all-important rapport/establishing his identity outside of it =/
Please pay attention to what *I* say when you're responding to *my* posts.
His very barebones bit earlier on was a decent start, but rather lacking in much of anything, tbh. There was a bit of humor, yes; but six sentences doesn't seem to have given anyone any idea as to what kind of person he is. He also hasn't given HIS OWN OPINION on any of this ongoing BS, which is the sort of thing you'd sort of expect someone to comment on when it's their own self that's the topic. And I know he's seen it, because about a minute or two after my long post, I checked his profile and noticed he was reading the thread. Soooo...yeah.
Again, note that I don't give a crap how he was appointed. I just want to know what the guy is like. If all of the mods/staff made some sort of introductory post when their position was granted, it would give an idea of their personality or w/e...sort of how the entire Introductions subforum works (minus birthdays/leaving), right? =/
At posting on the forum: the fact is that the areas with the highest activity are the non-FF related sections, yes? How is it then that some of the most active members don't even know the username (and yes, I'll use myself as an example again - please note that I post in EVERY SECTION OF THE FORUM, barring RP and anything personally creative, i.e. art, fanfics, etc)? =/
And it's STILL a bad idea, since it doesn't really help to solidify his position among you, and it also doesn't speak much as to your confidence in him as a leader like that.
Please also note that I did mention that 'how was I anything close to snarky in addressing Celes at all' would not be a good response. It's not just what you say, Makoman, it's HOW you say it - the choice of syntax, sentence structure, all of it. Tbh, it comes across as you lashing out at her in frustration because she was among those opposed. Note the very, VERY different tone in every other post that you've made addressing her.
I won't get into this discussion with you. Like I said - we both know what I'm talking about, and that I'm right. I'm not talking shit, challenging you, demanding apology, or anything else, other than that you please don't do it again. We cool?
If I waited too late to respond to anyone's concerns, I apologize. I felt that it would be bad form to involve myself heavily in this thread without giving everyone a chance to comfortably express their concerns to the people whose recent decisions have raised those concerns.
I felt my continued presence could only exacerbate an already difficult situation -- and, really, I had no business getting involved. Honestly, I couldn't have spoken to the rationale behind selecting me as well as those who had themselves made the decision.
For that matter, I'm the new guy here, in all reailty. Sure, I've lurked since the site was put up and was a member at ACF, but TLS isn't ACF, thank God, and a good number of you are unfamiliar with me.
As such, I didn't want in any way to negatively impact anyone's comfort in voicing their concerns. Knowing a guy's in the room while you're discussing him in a situation such as this could be awkward to some, and I didn't want that.
That said, I assure all of you that I'm aware of your concerns. Though I haven't posted since the second page of the thread, I've read every post that's been made.
As Omega has now specifically requested my presence, I'm going to respond to a number of the concerns and issues raised.
Before I do that, though, I want to reiterate once more that I will try not to let down those whom the position is intended to serve: the community. I encourage -- nay, request -- that if you have any concerns about either the site or my own conduct, you bring them to my attention, or the other staff's should the situation call for it.
For the record, by the way, I also got that Phobos was joking about the cock gobbling. I chuckled.
I'm not asking what hobbies he has or anything else...but is it SO MUCH to expect the new guy to INTRODUCE HIMSELF to the members in his new capacity? Not even a huge thing, just, 'ohai, just made a mod, wish me luck, hope we have fun, w/e w/e'.
I'm sorry I didn't do this. It honestly didn't occur to me. I wasn't online at the time the update to my account was made, as I was at work, and by the time I would have actually been in the position to make such an announcement myself, this thread had already been made.
That being the case, I just decided to go ahead and post in here.
Harry Potter said:
It's worth noting that the fellow hasn't made ANY POSTS AT ALL IN THIS THREAD since the whole shitstorm began.
I made a post here, though it could have easily been missed given the nuclear proliferation of this thread.
Harry Potter said:
This already doesn't instill me with a lot of confidence, given that it's ABOUT him. Speak up and don't feel timid, or pay attention, whatever the case may be.
I agree with this as well. I know there's concern that my selection may have been based in part on a desire to select a new staffer who wouldn't be prone to disagreeing with the current staff, but if they say or do something I disagree with, I'll let them know it. And I believe they know that.
As it is, in my first post on this forum, I said I disapproved of the general manner in which fans of the CloudxAerith pairing were discussed (I'm a CloudxTifa guy myself) and view deference to what's canon as a bullshit concern when narrative coherency and in-universe continuity are raped as viciously as they have been with the Compilation of FFVII.
Elsewhere, I've disagreed with several of them, and not just on matters related to Final Fantasy. I sent Mako a PM one time telling him that I felt he was being unnecessarily dickish to someone. I'll happily do it again if I think it needs to be said, and neither liking him nor serving as a moderator will make me any less likely to do so.
In all reality, it should make me give more consideration to whether I think another member of staff is out of line.
Harry Potter said:
And only moderating the FF areas is a very bad idea, IN MY OPINION, since it means that he won't be building that all-important rapport/establishing his identity outside of it =/
I'll admit that I've spent most of my time on this forum there, but I do intend to branch out, and have been doing so of late.
Obviously there are still things I'm going to need to learn and people I'll need to get to know -- and who will need to get to know me -- but I'm not frightened by the challenge of hitting the ground running. That's really how I learn best anyway.
In closing, I want to say to everyone that I will do my best and don't want to let anybody down. Also, again, tell me if I fuck up somewhere. I firmly believe I have the potential to do a good job, but I'm sure there will be times I could use the input of another member of the community.
