Poor Hojo?

Jiro

Average Jiro
One thing I've never understood is the way fandom paints Aerith's father as a good guy.

Not being a complete psychopath in a group full of psychopaths kind of makes you look better than you actually are. Gast is a "good guy" insofar as he realised they couldn't see the line they'd crossed and tried to protect a woman who would've been experimented upon like she was nothing more than some meat. Those aren't bad qualities, despite some negative repercussions, but in the end, he's still not exactly a good guy; he worked for Shinra and was respected there, and that's not easy when you have morals :monster:
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
I do feel sorry for Hojo. Personally, I feel he was mentally ill, and either really wished to be immersed in science and a scientist, or he was (in some way) forced into it. I also feel he had feelings for Lucrecia, but they were most likely overpowered by other feelings.

I think the clue for all of this is when Vincent says something to the effect of (original game, in airship) the he understands now, she was protecting him. I feel he was speaking about how Lucrecia did what she did to protect Hojo. Of course, there's a bit of doubt, because she was quickly pregnant with Sephiroth... ???
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
There is a difference between being mentally ill and being a straightup sociopath.Hojo is very much the latter because throughout the Compliation he actually likes what pain he causes to other people and doesn't really care what his actions will do to others.Also remember he lacked any empathy for Lucrecia when she had complications in her pregnancy with Sephiroth.He was very much willing to risk her health in order for the project to go on.Sorry,but Hojo is just a straightup scumbag who cares only for himself and his obession with science.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
http://suite101.com/article/the-signs-of-a-sociopath-a47485

It seems like being a sociopath is having personality and social disorders.No wonder Sephiroth called Hojo a walking mass of complexes.I think everything in that article fits Hojo to a "T" especially about the part of the fact that they have no sense of comittment to their spouses or children.So,I will say it once and I will say it again Hojo cannot be described as sympathetic at all.
 
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Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
I'm sorry but 'sociopath' is not really the perfect description for Hojo. There are traits there that fit him but generally speaking, he's something else. You can spot the contradictions in the first sentences of that article:

Sociopaths, or psychopaths as they are sometimes called*, are often hard to spy. Their charm can hide a chilly selfishness designed to torment. Learn how to avoid them.
1. 'hard to spy' - doesn't fit because Hojo doesn't hide his motives
2. charm - Hojo doesn't seem to care about charm, he is who he is
3. 'hide a chilly selfishness' - see #1
*wrong, these two are not one and the same

These sociopaths are those incredibly difficult and deceiving people we deal with in everyday life. They could be family or friends who are seemingly normal on the outside but disrupt relationships with their lying, manipulating, conniving, etc. They're not 'crazy' enough to be locked away and they have a way of getting close to people, and that is why there are LOTS of articles of advice about how to spot and avoid/ deal with them.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I'm sorry but 'sociopath' is not really the perfect description for Hojo. There are traits there that fit him but generally speaking, he's something else. You can spot the contradictions in the first sentences of that article:

1. 'hard to spy' - doesn't fit because Hojo doesn't hide his motives
2. charm - Hojo doesn't seem to care about charm, he is who he is
3. 'hide a chilly selfishness' - see #1
*wrong, these two are not one and the same

These sociopaths are those incredibly difficult and deceiving people we deal with in everyday life. They could be family or friends who are seemingly normal on the outside but disrupt relationships with their lying, manipulating, conniving, etc. They're not 'crazy' enough to be locked away and they have a way of getting close to people, and that is why there are LOTS of articles of advice about how to spot and avoid/ deal with them.

So,if you were a psychiatrist what would you correctly diagnose Hojo as.Because there is defiantly something not right with that man.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Someone who doesn't value basic human rights, someone who values knowledge above all else, someone who doesn't care about the rest of humanity, someone wants to be recognized as being competent in his field, someone who wants what he thinks is right to be proven correct, someone who thinks he's smarter then anyone else...

and do we really need a diagnoses of Hojo? He only tells us why he does things at least once per installment of the compilation. It's not like he leaves us guessing...
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Someone who doesn't value basic human rights, someone who values knowledge above all else, someone who doesn't care about the rest of humanity, someone wants to be recognized as being competent in his field, someone who wants what he thinks is right to be proven correct, someone who thinks he's smarter then anyone else...

and do we really need a diagnoses of Hojo? He only tells us why he does things at least once per installment of the compilation. It's not like he leaves us guessing...

Hojo just has all the makings of a good Batman villain because they all have a personality or mental disorder that makes them what they are.I would even think that Hojo would join forces with the Joker in order to spread their sadistic desires.

All those you said above sound like they can be diagnosed as complexes that are known to psychatrists.And yeah Hojo should of have been in a psycho ward instead leading a science department if it was someone noble in charge Shinra.
 

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Hojo lacks empathy and any human emotion, that's it. I don't think he specifically wanted to wreck havoc (at least before DoC, if I'm not mistaken)-- more like he's just 'helping' his greatest creation (Sephiroth) so he can see the results of his experiments. Everything that he's done is for the pursuit of knowledge.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hojo lacks empathy and any human emotion, that's it. I don't think he specifically wanted to wreck havoc (at least before DoC, if I'm not mistaken)-- more like he's just 'helping' his greatest creation (Sephiroth) so he can see the results of his experiments. Everything that he's done is for the pursuit of knowledge.

He does sometimes seems to take pleasure in ruining someone's life.Also what is he doing all that knowledge for anyway.Its just searching for knowledge for knowledge sake's while causing destruction and misery whenever he does something which was often.He's like a human version of Braniac in a way.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Er... now's probably not the time to mention Hojo is one of the characters I identify the most with is FFVII is it? Because that's the entire reason I came down to thelifestream.net in the first place. I was having a "this is an awesome series and I must find out everything about it" moment and you guys were the only place I could find that had a timeline that made sense and you had translations.

If I'm being really honest with myself, doing what Hojo does is really attractive sometimes because having to remind myself to think of other people as people is really hard. It's way easier for me to just care about what I can learn from them that I didn't know before and then not concern myself with them again. Except that something in me knows that doing that would be wrong... so I try to deal with people as... people. There's a reason I knew I would never be studying biology...

So whatever's up with Hojo, it probably goes back to him not having a problem with not thinking about people as people.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I know a some fans of Hojo try to justify him shooting Vincent by saying that he was jealous of the fact that he was showing overconcern for his wife.However,once one thinks further about it Hojo really didn't care for Lucrecia as a person and only saw her as reproductive fodder.If one were more honest the real reason Hojo shot Vincent was because he was getting too nosey for his own good and was being too disruptive in the process.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^There's a difference between justifying what a character does and trying to understand why what the character does makes sense to the character. Sometimes doing the latter causes you to think the character wasn't as bad as they seem, other times it causes you to dislike them more then you already did.

In the "Hojo shoots Vincent" case, Vincent is trying to stop Hojo from knowing what he wants to know about Jenova, so Hojo gets rid of Vincent and then uses him to find out other stuff about Galian Beast, Death Gigas and Hellmasker.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
^^There's a difference between justifying what a character does and trying to understand why what the character does makes sense to the character. Sometimes doing the latter causes you to think the character wasn't as bad as they seem, other times it causes you to dislike them more then you already did.

In the "Hojo shoots Vincent" case, Vincent is trying to stop Hojo from knowing what he wants to know about Jenova, so Hojo gets rid of Vincent and then uses him to find out other stuff about Galian Beast, Death Gigas and Hellmasker.

That second paragraph would actually be a correct understanding of why Hojo shot Vincent.Yeah,it would make sense that he would stop anyone who was getting in the way of him obtaining knowledge about the subject he was currently interested in.It would actually explain why he killed Gast because he was standing in the way of him getting information about the Promised Land by protecting Ifana and Aerith.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
He's like an even more amoral version of Fansworth from Futurama without any funny quirks or redeeming aspects.
 

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I will say it all again. I personally think that Hojo was meant to be portrayed as someone who was unhappy and alone. Someone desperate for recognition, validation, approval, and someone who waned so badly to see something other worldy occur. I think the character Hojo was such a bad scientist because he was never really a scientist at heart. He is a horrible scientist, and seems mostly concerned with mythological things and proving the existence of a higher power. But he denies it and laughs at anyone who believes in such things. Again, projecting self-hatred.

For example, in Final Fantasy VII he wanted to witness Sephiroth become some god, and in Crisis Core he mentioned reading Loveless thinking that it could aid his research, but then dismissing it as "pure drivel" but still refers to Sephiroth as "the hero" in his missions. Since when do stories aid scientific research, hmmm? And in his missions, he mentioned that Genesis had a few tricks up his sleeve and in the original game he apparently got angry at Sephiroth for referring to materia as magic. My guess is that he longed for something greater than science, but he denied that part of himself. Vincent referred to him as a queer fellow who lacked scientific talent, Sephiroth said something similar. There is nothing scientific about putting humans in tanks filled with mako energy. That is not science. I don't even know what that is. Same thing with Red and Aerith. Anyone with one semester of high school biology would know that creatures of two different species rarely breed and if they do, two organisms as vastly different as Red and Aerith would not produce offspring. At all. Once again, not a good scientist. All he does is create monsters. Oh, and mythological creatures such as dragons. This guy was not a traditional scientist at all. I think he wanted there to be something. I think he was jealous of Gast, I think he might have liked Lucrecia but was never open about it. After all, why shoot her lover?

It was said that Hojo did not love her and that he only used her to be his specimen maker. Well, as long as he got a specimen out of her, did it matter if she liked someone else? No. He should not have cared but he must have. But then again, maybe he just shot Vincent because he was getting in the way and threatening Hojo. It's hard to say. In Dirge of Cerberus, that scene was portrayed differently. Hojo looked defensive and clung to his gun, but in the original he looked more frustrated that Vincent was confronting him because he pulled at his hair.

Hojo was not portrayed consistently. Originally, the story was simple. Shinra wanted a cetra to find the Promised Land so he could have his Neo Midgar thing and rule the world. SO he probably hired scientists to accomplish this. They try to, and find out later that the specimen was not a cetra. Gast leaves with a real one and Hojo was probably pissed. Sephiroth had been so fond of Gast but probably did not know that he just upped and left and probably did not even think twice about Sephiroth. Hojo of course wanted the real ancient but might have been angry that Gast just up and abandoned the project like it was nothing, leaving him with a silver haired child and no purpose for him. That is probably why SOLDIER was created, because they did not know what to do with Sephiroth and maybe Hojo had a helping hand in order to create opportunities for him. Most times, Shinra is portrayed as caring about Sephiroth's strength. Most likely, Hojo went to him and claimed that a military would be good for him and Shinra agreed. Otherwise Shinra might have discarded him.

Overall, I think Hojo was cruel and mean, but he did not seem carefree or calm, or charming like other sociopaths. Since he was portrayed as someone with low self esteem and (to me) looked somehow depressed, then perhaps that shows someone who might have had regrets and been unhappy. But we will never know. As for a backstory, I think one befitting him would be someone who was spiritual and religious, believing in gods or god or mythological things, who then loses his faith and sets out as a scientist to prove that those things are real. And if they are not, then make them (like making Sephiroth into a god, making dragons, mating an ancient and a dog lion).

One thing I always wondered though...why the hell didn't they disect Jenova? Hojo did not even bring it into the building. He just leaves it in Nibelheim. Crazy! Anyone good scientist would love to disect an alien specimen.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I think the main problem here is all these sympathetic alternate interpretations don't fit all what is presented in canon and plays down what a cruel person he is. He is mad man with no boundaries and the license to do whatever he wants because he can get away with it.
 
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