Portrayal of Cloud's Mental State (and eventually Zack) in the Remake

[LNK]

He's actually an unbuilt trope of what we stereotypically think of as an average JRPG protagonist. The image we see him as in the beginning is just an act. He becomes a true hero by being himself and not trying to be some macho guy compensating for something.

I got into JRPGs late, so I always liked the "heros" who took time to fill into the role. Noctis is also one of my favorites.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

To the extent that CC has a point, isn't that the point? True heroism wasn't what he thought it was: fame, fortune, fan-clubs. True heroism involves sacrifice and maybe also an unmarked grave. Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his brother. And so on....

I don't see how you can say he accomplished nothing useful. He who saves a life saves the world entire. And in Zack's case, he saved the life that literally saved the world.

I think that your analysis perfectly highlights the literal side of the work. I agree with you that CC really has a point in the way it questions the nature of the war hero. We simply do not arrive to the same conclusions.

A soldier who takes part of his own will in a colonial fight (against Wutaians) repents and sacrifices himself to save a team soldier who will eventually save the world from an extraterrestrial threat. This could be the synopsis of a classic american action movie. The people of Wutai should really show more appreciation, apparently.

I cannot understand how Aerith, who knows what harm Shinra is causing to the Lifestream/people, would be kind to one of its most scatterbrained soldier to the point of considering a possible romantic relationship. She should rather be angry at him. Her attitude makes no sense, at all.

This is a useful sacrifice for you as you consider that Cloud and Co really saved the world.
But also to me who think that it was useful to save another world/project (help prepare the next Cetra migration).
So you were right to point that part of my post as a bad argument.

About the portrayal of Cloud's mental State at the start of the remake. I propose that it is based on the image of Zack's which was implanted to him some time earlier at the Shinra Mansion.

 

[Clement Rage]

'Hero' is a very flexible term. If you ask one of the people either of them saved, they'd probably vote 'hero' , act or not. It's not like it's an act for the benefit of praise, it's because his mind is broken in half. The majority of what happens in CC is Zack trying to save civilian lives at increasing cost. The most dubious missions are optional, and therefore on the player.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Kerrigan, IMHO you are mistaken to think that Aerith in Crisis Core knows exactly what's happening with the Planet. For one thing, she's in denial about her abilities and pretending to be "normal". For another thing, she clearly states in the OG that it's often difficult to understand what the Planet is saying. "It's full of people and noisy." Communing with the Planet is not easy for her. Even at the Temple of the Ancients she has times when she struggles to make out what the voices are saying. The OG for Aerith is a journey towards understanding both herself and the Planet, which is cut short before completion. There's no reason to assume that before she meets Avalanche she already knows exactly how Shinra is exploiting the Lifestream, what the Lifestream is, or what damage it's doing to the Planet. She's not some all-knowing all-benevolent goddess. She's just a girl adrift in the world, trying to make sense of everything.

 

[jazzflower92]

Kerrigan, IMHO you are mistaken to think that Aerith in Crisis Core knows exactly what's happening with the Planet. For one thing, she's in denial about her abilities and pretending to be "normal". For another thing, she clearly states in the OG that it's often difficult to understand what the Planet is saying. "It's full of people and noisy." Communing with the Planet is not easy for her. Even at the Temple of the Ancients she has times when she struggles to make out what the voices are saying. The OG for Aerith is a journey towards understanding both herself and the Planet, which is cut short before completion. There's no reason to assume that before she meets Avalanche she already knows exactly how Shinra is exploiting the Lifestream, what the Lifestream is, or what damage it's doing to the Planet. She's not some all-knowing all-benevolent goddess. She's just a girl adrift in the world, trying to make sense of everything.

Yeah, that's what a lot of spinoff material forget about her is that at her core she is a human character and not some pure goddess. That's why many find her OG version so enduring, because she's not just a flat waif but someone who actually gets angry, has a rough edge, and has a mischievous spirit.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

To the extent that CC has a point, isn't that the point? True heroism wasn't what he thought it was: fame, fortune, fan-clubs. True heroism involves sacrifice and maybe also an unmarked grave. Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his brother. And so on....

I don't see how you can say he accomplished nothing useful. He who saves a life saves the world entire. And in Zack's case, he saved the life that literally saved the world.

Kerrigan, IMHO you are mistaken to think that Aerith in Crisis Core knows exactly what's happening with the Planet. For one thing, she's in denial about her abilities and pretending to be "normal". For another thing, she clearly states in the OG that it's often difficult to understand what the Planet is saying. "It's full of people and noisy." Communing with the Planet is not easy for her. Even at the Temple of the Ancients she has times when she struggles to make out what the voices are saying. The OG for Aerith is a journey towards understanding both herself and the Planet, which is cut short before completion. There's no reason to assume that before she meets Avalanche she already knows exactly how Shinra is exploiting the Lifestream, what the Lifestream is, or what damage it's doing to the Planet. She's not some all-knowing all-benevolent goddess. She's just a girl adrift in the world, trying to make sense of everything.

Yeah, that's what a lot of spinoff material forget about her is that at her core she is a human character and not some pure goddess. That's why many find her OG version so enduring, because she's not just a flat waif but someone who actually gets angry, has a rough edge, and has a mischievous spirit.

I'm not saying that you don't understand things how you're supposed to understand them on a literal lecture, but I have the strong feeling that there's a hidden plot throughout the compilation. I don't see it as an empirical accumulation of commercial opportunities of which the creators would not have bothered to polish the angles. This is not the way the japanese do things, there's no place for approximation in this culture. I think that anyone who would doubt that Crisis Core really has a point dosen't really give a chance to a global and coherent consideration of the work.

Aerith is said to be the last Cetra, so to have a priviledged relation with the Lifestream. As the daughter of Ifalna she would certainly have noticed how her mother seems to have struggled for her life against Shinra. She's pretending to be normal, which means she knows that she's not. We have a proof that she can hear what the planet is saying as it is stated that she knew in advance that Elmyra's husband just died. Why wouldn't the Lifestream tell her last remnant that it is suffering because of Shinra actions, in an ultimate desperate help/hope call. In the OG we have an hint that she worked at Shinra tower reception for some time, so she would have at least a basic knowledge of what this company is doing to the Lifestream/people. In CC we have an hint that she knows more about shinra operations than what you seem to believe (CC extract). In BC she's said to have been approached by Avalanche but refused to help (I think I read somewhere). On the Remake excerpt of the opening cinematic we can see her looking straight at Shinra headquarters, apparently in an educated way (although I can't really read defiance/hate in her eyes). To me she plays the role of an ingenue with a hidden well prepared plan.

"It's full of people and noisy."

I'm happy that you're bringing this to my attention. I thought that consciences couldn't last (and thus couldn't talk) once merged to the Lifestream, I was wrong apparently.

@ Clement Rage @ LicoriceAllsorts @ jazzflower92
You do not seem to be much interested in the picture that Wutaiens could have of this foreign imperialist army (Wikipedia : Nuclear power in Japan - see the "Early years" section) and thus of one of its elite soldiers, nevertheless this game is a Japanese production. I can not see how this type of soldier could be portrayed by these people (the developers) as a true hero. This would be far beyond my basic human understanding.

@ everyone
About my proposition that Cloud's conscience could have been built from Zack's memories/experience.
Everyone noticed that parallel between the experiences Zack's lives in CC and the ones Cloud lives in OG. I can't believe that it is a coincidence that Shinra anticipated the attack of Reactor1 in a manner so close to what happened at the start of VII. Can they read the futur ? Probably not, but can they write it ? CC is full of these analogies/coincidences. Couldn't CC be seen as the preparation work for the construction of a mental state that would be implanted into Cloud in order to make him unconsciously/naturally understand and complete his (mysterious) true mission ? (extract 1 - extract 2 - extract 3 - extract 4)
There's a big theme about copy machines in this game. Is it just there to justify the multiplicity of opponents ?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You're entitled to see and believe whatever you like; one of the pleasures of this game is that it is open to interpretation. But "a strong feeling" is not a reasoned argument. Maybe the Lifestream is trying to communicate with Aerith. However, until well on in the game, Aerith has to work hard and concentrate to hear even its most basic communications.

There is no hint in the OG that she ever worked anywhere but as a flower seller. The scene from Crisis Core is normally taken to mean that Aerith hasn't told Zack about her Cetra heritage. Of course she knows she's special. She just doesn't like it - "Normal is best" - so she denies it. That's why Tseng is one of the few people who have ever really known her. That's why it's such a big deal when she admits her Cetra heritage to Avalanche in the OG. And you can't base an argument on what you "read" in people's eyes, although of course you are free to base your headcanons on that. If you enjoy believing that she plays the role of an ingenue with a well hidden plan, you go right on believing it. You could probably write a very interesting fanfiction about it. But if you try to persuade other people to believe it, of course they're going to respond with why they don't agree.

I don't understand your argument re Wutai. I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wutaians see Zack as a hero.

"Full of people and noisy" is a loose translation. It shouldn't be taken as proof that the Lifestream is full of individual consciences, though it may be the case that some Cetra consciences have remained intact. Since the Lifestream is constantly recycled into new living beings, it would surely be impossible for the vast majority of consciences that return to the Lifestream to remain intact for very long. Aerith may indeed may only be hearing the cacophony of the recently deceased.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

There is no hint in the OG that she ever worked anywhere but as a flower seller

There's a guy on the Shinra tower cafeteria that tells Cloud he knows an Aerith too and that she works as a receptionist in the lobby. Would there be two Aerith ? Possible.



Shinra Building 61th floor
(personal translation from french - happy if someone can give the english version)

Guy :
"Who are you?
What are you doing here?"

Cloud :
"Where is Aerith?"

Guy :
"Aerith ? How do you know this name?
Do you mean that you too, you...?"

"Wait... Do you really mean Aerith, the receptionnist?"

"I started to be interested in her too."

"Hmm, so you're a rival, huh? "

"What ? It is not her ?
It is someone else?"

I don't understand your argument re Wutai. I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wutaians see Zack as a hero.

Just saying that the attacked Wutaians could be seen as the ancestors of the developers (at least as a representation of their ancestors culture).
The Wutai war greatly mimics a (recent past) real life conflict between Western interests and Japan. Why would the developers make this (hostile to their culture) Colonial Marine a true hero? He can pretend to the status of Puppy, nothing more.

"Full of people and noisy" is a loose translation. It shouldn't be taken as proof that the Lifestream is full of individual consciences, though it may be the case that some Cetra consciences have remained intact. Since the Lifestream is constantly recycled into new living beings, it would surely be impossible for the vast majority of consciences that return to the Lifestream to remain intact for very long. Aerith may indeed may only be hearing the cacophony of the recently deceased.

Ok, that would make sense.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wutai has certainly suffered in a war, but if you really want to push the analogy with Japan then Wutai would have been every bit as much the aggressor as Shinra. Shinra hasn't colonised Wutai or destroyed its culture, it's just that Wutai finds its only economic role in the new world order as a giant theme park. That really hasn't been Japan's fate post World War II. I seriously doubt the developers see themselves as essentially Wutaian or that Wutai somehow represents them in some profound way. I'd need to see proof of that. I just don't believe their games are designed from that essentially western viewpoint. I think they see Zack as every bit as "Japanese", i.e., human, as Rufus or Cloud or Tifa or Noctis or Faris or Golbez or anyone.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Wutai is certainly happy to have become a giant theme park...
If you're willing to play the game of who agressed the other one first, I've got another argument : Wikipedia > Japan > Modern Era
I'm not sure if all japanese people were equally happy when the Tokyo Disney Resort project got its validation. Probably less than for the first Pizza Hut. Time had passed...
Don't forget the two atomic bombs that have finally been recognized as not necessary for the conclusion of the conflict (US government).
I could add that the japanese people are not famous for being seen as a welcoming and open community but I agree that this argument could be taken as a horrible préjugé.
Do you seriously doubt that the developers see themselves as essentially japanese or that Japan somehow represents them in some profound way ?
I just believe that this game was specifically designed to please the western audience, as a gift you could say (greek meaning of gift).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You need to have a look at Japan's imperial history in the late 19th-early 20th century century. Maybe look at what happened in Nanking.
I have no idea how the developers see themselves. I'm just saying that they don't see "Japanese" as distinct from "human", so all their human characters are Japanese. You can't really think that all their characters except for the ones who are explicitly made to look "Oriental" are intended to be westeners. Are Japanese players not supposed to identity with Zack? With Cloud? With Balthier? With Fran? With Lightning? With Prompto? With Red XIII? Apart from anything else, their games are fantasies, where these categories don't even apply. They don't have any problem making TV shows of mangas set in real or imaginary versions of Europe in which all the characters are played by Japanese actors.

 

[ForceStealer]

lol, Zack is not supposed to be a Westerner, Shinra is not a stand-in for the Allies, and Wutai is not a stand-in for Japan. You're projecting.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Kerrigan, IMHO you are mistaken to think that Aerith in Crisis Core knows exactly what's happening with the Planet.

I haven't played Before Crisis, but I know that it's happening before CC.
I found this information from finalfantasy.fandom.com :

Shears defeats the player Turk and Aerith is taken to the church to meet the leader of AVALANCHE, Elfé. Elfé tells Aerith AVALANCHE wants to bring down Shinra and protect the Promised Land, and it would be in her best interests to ally with them. Aerith hears an "old voice" emanating from Elfé, inadvertently leading to the discovery of the Turk spying on them from the rafters. After the Turk battles Shears and Fuhito, Elfé is stricken by a sudden weakness, and AVALANCHE retreats. Tseng arrives, and the Turk allows Aerith to flee while they distract him.

Aerith could have had a global hint of Shinra's operations on this occasion. But maybe they didn't argumented their help call enough or had no time to do so.

@LicoriceAllsorts
I can't seem to find this part of BC's script. I read somewhere on this forum that you might have some of it, could you kindly post it here for us to read? (just the meeting with avalanche maybe - episode11).

It seems to me that there was no bigdeal / reticence / surprise in the OG when Aerith learned that she was going with AVALANCHE.

Is AVALANCHE from Wutai or have they just set up their main base there?

Just a reflexion: An avalanche can be described as water in solid state that under certain conditions can begin to flow in a state close to liquid (the tiny snow balls roll onto each other).
Apparently when we are caught in an avalanche we totally lose bearings, a little like when we are caught in a big wave that ends in a roll. We are swept until the pressure makes us go up (or not).
I think it would be a nice/elegant metaphor for Zack's/Cloud's situation (mental state) in the game.
In CC, Genesis tries a guess at LOVELESS by stating that Water (well the water's surface) could be understood as Lifestream.
Lifestream > Water > Avalanche > disoriented minds...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm afraid I don't have my copies of the BC script any more; they were all lost when I accidentally fried my last laptop. However, it's chapter 11 - here's the link to the first part on Youtube.

TBH there's a lot of wierd and wonderful things that people in the OG ought to make a big deal of, but just don't.

Is Avalanche Mark I from Wutai? Who knows? Is Fuhito from Wutai? We don't know. What we do know is that Shears is from Junon and Elfe is Veld's daughter. They did have an HQ in Wutai for a little while, but when the Turks tried to infiltrate it they decided to let him blow them up and faked their own deaths. They also had their HQ in Icicle Inn for a while; when that HQ was destroyed, they relocated to Wutai.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

The dialogues in this video tend to show that Aerith is aware of Shinra's harmful activities.
It makes a point against the possibility that Aerith falls so suddenly in love with a soldier responsible in part (he just participated in the winning battle for Wutai) for the spread of the "evil".

It could also show her manipulative side. Here she tells Avalanche that a Turk is protecting her. In the original game she asks Cloud (fresh avalanche member) to protect her from a Turk (Reno who hides behind the church's door, maybe waiting for a sign to enter the scene).

I think that she could be seen as responsible for Zack's death as she plays the lover who will patiently wait for the return of her man.
Don't you feel the sense of embarrassment that emerges from the scene in which Zack surprises Aerith in the church with the copy of Angeal? She dosen't seem to be frightened at all by his presence.
Angeal who could be seen as responsible for the first meeting of Zack and Aerith.
Angeal who kind of blends into the virtual representation of Sephiroth during the initial VR training mission.
Angeal who at the end of Crisis Core gives Aerith's last letter to Zack, thus precipitating his return to Midgar and his certain (scheduled ?) death.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

lol, Zack is not supposed to be a Westerner, Shinra is not a stand-in for the Allies, and Wutai is not a stand-in for Japan. You're projecting.

Do you really mean that there could be no implied relation between
an "hegemonic state/electric power company that wins a war and then manages to install electricity plants (nuclear reactor type) in the defeated country (shinto culture) against the will of the people" (source - see Early years/overcoming popular resistance) and
an "hegemonic electric power company/state that wins a war which was triggered by the reluctance of a country/people (shinto inspired culture) to accept the establishment of an electricity plant (mako reactor type) on its territory " (source) ? This would be totally fortuitous or without consequences at the plot level?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You'd have been hard pressed even in the mid-1990s to find Japanese people who didn't blame the Empire of Japan (rather than the U.S.) for what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII, and harder pressed still to find anyone who had a crap to give about electricity being derived from nuclear energy.

To say nothing of the fact that WWII had nothing to do with installing nuclear power plants in Japan ...

 

[ForceStealer]

So, let me see if I understand this. Your point here is that the plot of FF7 is an elaborate allegory for Allied/US treatment of Japan but that the developers don't even know it?

And this is of course ignoring the fact that most of the Japanese signage in the game is found in Midgar, while Wutai has mostly Chinese influence (Hell, "Wutai" is the name of a mountain in China.) I could easily argue that Shinra is the stand-in for Japan while Wutai is the stand-in for exploited China which Japan invaded and subjugated in the late 1930s. But it isn't that either. (And of course the inhabitants of the pagoda which have Russian names.)

I'm not saying there is no allegory to be found, that's the beauty of enjoying art. But your angle that... I don't know what your angle is. That the the devs didn't realize their own allegory in treating Zack like a hero?

an "electric power company/state that wins a war which was triggered by the reluctance of a country/people (shinto inspired culture) to accept the establishment of an electricity plant (mako type) on its territory

Are you suggesting the war between the US and Japan was caused because the US wanted to put power plants on Japan? lol

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

To say nothing of the fact that WWII had nothing to do with installing nuclear power plants in Japan ...

Excerpt from the Wikipedia article cited above: "The Washington Post called for adopting the proposal to build nuclear reactors in Japan, stating: "Many Americans are now aware...that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was not necessary....How better to make a contribution to amends than by offering Japan...atomic energy." Well I don't know what is the real value of this article.

Are you suggesting the war between the US and Japan was caused because the US wanted to put power plants on Japan? lol

Not at all.

And this is of course ignoring the fact that most of the Japanese signage in the game is found in Midgar, while Wutai has mostly Chinese influence (Hell, "Wutai" is the name of a mountain in China.) I could easily argue that Shinra is the stand-in for Japan while Wutai is the stand-in for exploited China which Japan invaded and subjugated in the late 1930s. But it isn't that either. (And of course the inhabitants of the pagoda which have Russian names.)

I can't recognize a japanese character from a chinese. I trust you if you say that Midgar signs are japanese, but I would say that the slums are not a very honorable place to settle (to be setteled ?). I would be interested in knowing about Wutai signs, are they mostly chinese ?
I can see futons and a zen garden in Wutai houses, as well as a picture that looks like a high mountain/volcano with a white circle of snow at the summit (Fuji ?), between other japanese influences.

So, let me see if I understand this. Your point here is that the plot of FF7 is an elaborate allegory for Allied/US treatment of Japan but that the developers don't even know it?

I'm not saying there is no allegory to be found, that's the beauty of enjoying art. But your angle that... I don't know what your angle is. That the the devs didn't realize their own allegory in treating Zack like a hero?

I probably didn't expressed myself well.
I mean that the developers knew what they were doing by implementing this allegory and that if they did it on purpose (introducing a kind of buried rancor) this would kind of discredit Zack as being a possible true hero. I mean that they maybe intended to make him a real puppy/puppet being seen as a true hero by people (mostly foreigners) that wouldn't remember this part of History.

Difficult to sell a product by presenting it as the fruit of rancor that is worn to the buyer. I think they had to take some time to bury this message so that it would not be directly detected by westerners.

But if Zack is not a hero, can this observation possibly question the plot of the game? That's what I think.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Anyone here who is Japanese can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the generation of Japanese to which FFVII's developers belong bear resentment or ill-will towards the Americans for WWII. It's not as if Japan were squeaky-clean innocents. They were the aggressors, they'd already colonised Korea quite brutally, they'd colonised Manchuria, and they invaded China. Now, I have no idea if this is the case or not, but I something wonder if they regard Hiroshima and Nagasaki as some kind of absolution by fire for all the terrible things they did, as a country, both to other countries and to themselves, before and during the war.

 

[ForceStealer]

To say nothing of the fact that WWII had nothing to do with installing nuclear power plants in Japan ...

Excerpt from the Wikipedia article cited above: "The Washington Post called for adopting the proposal to build nuclear reactors in Japan, stating: "Many Americans are now aware...that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was not necessary....How better to make a contribution to amends than by offering Japan...atomic energy." Well I don't know what is the real value of this article.

That still has no bearing on WW2. The construction of nuclear power plants came about well after the war, the war had nothing to do with it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anyone here who is Japanese can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the generation of Japanese to which FFVII's developers belong bear resentment or ill-will towards the Americans for WWII.

Hell, by and large, the generation alive at that time didn't even hold ill will towards the U.S.

Which is not to say that there weren't or still aren't extreme nationalist factions in Japan, a few of which downplay or attempt to justify Japan's aggressions during WWII. They're extremely fringe, though (at last estimate, something like less than 0.1 percent of the population lol), and usually loud and proud about who they are and what they're pushing.

They probably aren't getting inspired by western movies, going on to make cinematic video games when careers in film don't work out, and then dedicating the rest of their careers to political digs (in one game) so subtle as to require 20+ years for someone to even identify them as "propaganda."

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't think we can really determine the views of a nation, race, or generation, one way or the other. It's going to vary a lot, the perspective of somebody who was in Nagisaki v the perspective of someone in Nanking, for instance. Or both, or neither.

But we definitely can't say 'You are from here, therefore you have these views.'

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Though you're absolutely right, it's also A Thing that the historical Japanese perspective on the atomic bombs has been that of guilt -- many would say outright shame -- where the topic is concerned.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's also A Thing that the conduct of the Japanese army has been sometimes downplayed or glossed over in their histories to a controversial degree.

Some of that shame was 'we lost, we failed our Emperor', leading to mass suicides and such. Much of it at the time was for the surrender, not the bombs.

There's a vast array of perspectives on what happened, and that's just the people directly affected. At the time, the US military censored the full effects from popular knowledge, this kind of thing is way too complicated for any one definitive perspective. The deeper you go, the more complicated it gets.

Getting back to ff7, Mako does have some parallels to nuclear energy and bombs, but direct like for like applications with specific real world nations are pretty unlikely.