Question re the 'trail of blood/dead Pres' section

[Dana Scully]

So I'm reading through the FF7 timeline on the finalfantasy wiki to brush up on some of my canon, and I came across this:

After five years of patiently waiting, recovering his power, Sephiroth calls out to Jenova's body at the Shinra Headquarters. Compelled to reunite with Sephiroth as well as Jenova's head, as theorized by Hojo in his Reunion Theory, Jenova's body comes to life and starts to wreak havoc in the Shinra building, leaving a trail of death in its wake as it makes its way to the top floor, eventually taking on the form of Sephiroth himself. Upon reaching the top floor "Sephiroth" kills President Shinra, driving his sword into the his back.

I've always been under the impression that Sephiroth broke in, stole Jenova's body and dragged her along as he slaughtered everyone in his way, ending with the President. This is the first time I've ever heard that it was actually Jenova who did all the work. As this is a wiki I'm naturally a bit skeptical, especially as I don't see how a transformed Jenova would possess the Masamune or be able to 'shapeshift' one.

Anyone know if there's any truth to this?

Edit: Just realized that it couldn't have been Sephiroth as he was in the Northern Crater. Still, where did the Masamune come from?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It was JENOVA's body in Seph's form and under his control. In every way that matters, it was Seph himself.

Seph also opened the door to Cloud's cell before he left. All this is mentioned in the FFVII Ultimania Omega, by the way.

As for the Masamune, I assume Seph can just generate them the way he did in AC/C.

 

[Dana Scully]

It was JENOVA's body in Seph's form and under his control. In every way that matters, it was Seph himself.

Seph also opened the door to Cloud's cell before he left. All this is mentioned in the FFVII Ultimania Omega, by the way.

Yeah, I just realized now that it was actually Jenova-Seph for the whole first half of the game. Derp, this is why I should really read all the Ultimanias. Things make a lot more sense now.

As for the Masamune, I assume Seph can just generate them the way he did in AC/C.

Hm, makes sense. Did they ever explain how exactly he generates it/them (can he have more than one at a time?)?

 

[Octo]

I'm quite interested in this too, has anyone got screens of Jenovas tank post escape? I want to see if it was burst open from the inside or not.

Also, I remember giant claw marks in the walls of the shinra building, did Jenova have claws?

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, I just realized now that it was actually Jenova-Seph for the whole first half of the game.

Wow, really? I don't mean that insultingly, its just funny because you'd never know you were missing that part of the story, you always seemed right about the stuff you were saying
How did you explain Sephiroth being sealed in that crystal at the Northern Cave? (Just curious)

Up until that part of the game, you really are supposed to think that it was Sephiroth and that he broke Jenova out and all that until you kill Jenova-DEATH.

"This is the end of this body's usefulness."

Body fades away, fight Jenova DEATH. After the battle, Cloud kneels at the spot where he had been standing,

"Jenova's cells...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova Reunion..."

"Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we
were after?"

"I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about
is beating Sephiroth."

"But Sephiroth is..."

"He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here."

The iffy translation doesn't make it SUPER clear, but it is there

Also, I remember giant claw marks in the walls of the shinra building, did Jenova have claws?

Well, she's a shapeshifter, I guess she can have whatever she wants.

 

[Octo]

Well, she's a shapeshifter, I guess she can have whatever she wants.

Yeah, so why doesnt she shapeshift into something more attractive? This is supposed to get you a husband?!


Don't feel bad YACCBS, I didn't understand it until many years later. To be fair, I was fucking 15.

Also the game makes it confusing, on the Junon Ship and at the City of the Ancients you speak to Sephiroth who then buggers off leaving you to fight Jenova, so what are we supposed to think? Anyone would think that they were two separate entities. Ahh well.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh yeah its definitely tricky, and they were pretty good about that. Same with in the Forgotten City, Sephiroth flies up and Jenova falls back down, he could have been carrying her.

You never really get a hint as to what's going on until you fight Jenova-DEATH. When Sephiroth literally stands right in front of you, the battle starts, and you're fighting Jenova somehow. (Actually, I wonder how they'd handle that in a remake?)

It was really quite well done, actually.

 

[Sigbru]

I always wondered about Sephiroth's timing here. Was it just a coincidence he burst out when the party was there, or did he do it to (also) free them? I don't remember the game ever confirming it was him who freed the party, but most people speculate it was him

Or if the fact that Cloud's presence there enables Sephiroth to take direct control on Jenova... or that he just didn't knew where Jenova was and he found out when Cloud saw he/her/it

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm quite interested in this too, has anyone got screens of Jenovas tank post escape? I want to see if it was burst open from the inside or not.

JENOVA's containment tank is pretty jacked up. You can see it in this video at 5:15:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b16vz8JpFBQ

Since the door is blown off, it did look like it was opened from within all along.

I always wondered about Sephiroth's timing here. Was it just a coincidence he burst out when the party was there, or did he do it to (also) free them? I don't remember the game ever confirming it was him who freed the party, but most people speculate it was him

Ultimania Omega says it was him.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

WARNING: speculating ahead that is neither proven or disproven by canon

I always wondered about Sephiroth's timing here. Was it just a coincidence he burst out when the party was there, or did he do it to (also) free them?

In canon it's stated that Sephiroth has learned the knowledge contained in the Lifestream. My theory is that Sephiroth didn't know about Cloud having J-cells/S-cells in him until Zack, who did know about it, died. Sephiroth would then know to keep tabs on what's happening in the Science Department via Jenova's body (and maybe all the J-cells in all the SOLDIERs?). He would then at least know when Cloud goes into Hojo's lab for the first time.

 

[Max Payne]

Also, I remember giant claw marks in the walls of the shinra building, did Jenova have claws?

I always figured when Jenova broke out it started spawing monsters, hence the sudden appearance of them in the corridors of the shinra building.

Explained the claw marks and everything for me.

 

[Dana Scully]

Wow, really? I don't mean that insultingly, its just funny because you'd never know you were missing that part of the story, you always seemed right about the stuff you were saying
How did you explain Sephiroth being sealed in that crystal at the Northern Cave? (Just curious)

I...honestly don't know. XD Like, I'm trying to think how I justified Seph running around if he was stuck in the NC the whole time and I can't remember. Maybe I just unconsciously assumed that when you all return to the NC for the first time Seph decided to run ahead and take another dunk in the lifestream, or something, and that's retarded, lol. Now that you point it out it seems so glaringly obvious it was Jenova.

Tbh I never really delved too much into/thought too much on the OG canon because I (wrongly) thought that I had it all figured out and was more concerned with unravelling the clusterfuck that is BC/CC.

LEARN SOMETHIN' NEW EVERY DAY

Also

I always figured when Jenova broke out it started spawing monsters, hence the sudden appearance of them in the corridors of the shinra building.

Explained the claw marks and everything for me.

I always figured that the monsters/clawmarks came from monsters that had escaped from Hojo's lab.

 

[Max Payne]

I always figured that the monsters/clawmarks came from monsters that had escaped from Hojo's lab.

I thought of that, but I don't recall there being much indication that he had any specimens left after the initial breakout with Red XIII and the boss fight.

 

[Ite]

Still, where did the Masamune come from?

I think Cloud's line: "Only Sephiroth can wield that sword" is probably the biggest lie in the FF7 canon.

 

[Sigbru]

Ultimania Omega says it was him.

But why? He didn't even seen to remember who Cloud was at the Cargo Ship

 

[Masamune]

But why? He didn't even seen to remember who Cloud was at the Cargo Ship

That was just Sephiroth playing mindgames, planting a seed of doubt in ickle Cloud's head.

 

[Dana Scully]

So really, Sephiroth was pretty much just a massive troll.

 

[cheeriolord]

damn it's shocking to think that i was just 10 when i first played and finished this game. reading anything you guys are saying i remember that when i first played it through i just assumed jenova bosses spawned from sephiroth and that the dude you chase for the better part of half the game was just another clone created by hojo. after reading more and playing the game a ridiculous amount of times i realise i was kinda wrong but hey i was 10 .

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I figured it was one of the clones too back then

 

[Octo]

Yeah, I mean what you said made sense.

I still have trouble believing Sephiroths will is stronger than Jenovas, he only has some of its cells after all...

I mean, if we take what Hojo said about the difference between Ifalna and Aeris (what was it 18%?) then it stands to reason that whatever powers Jenova has would be weaker in Sephiroth. (I am aware that Jenova isnt an ancient) In fact much weaker compared to Aeris (the product of a human father and a cetran mother) where as Sephroth is still a 100% human injected in utero with Jenova cells. I just dont see how there could be anything special about his 'will'.
EDIT: because if a humans will is somehow stronger than Jenova, why was it a problem for the Cetra in the first place? With all their powers could they not have destroyed it, instead of sealing it?

Am I making any sense?


I dunno....I would have prefered Jenova to be behind it all.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The thing about Sephiroth you have to remember, is that Sephiroth absorbed all the information contained in the Lifestream. That would include Jenova crash landing on the planet and her sealing by the Cetra as well as whatever information Gast knew about her. Sephiroth knows he and Jenova are not Cetra. From that point on, I don't consider him a sympathetic character at all because he knows everything. Before he knew he wasn't a Cetra, maybe. After, no.

I still have trouble believing Sephiroths will is stronger than Jenovas, he only has some of its cells after all...

I mean, if we take what Hojo said about the difference between Ifalna and Aeris (what was it 18%?) then it stands to reason that whatever powers Jenova has would be weaker in Sephiroth. (I am aware that Jenova isn't an ancient) In fact much weaker compared to Aeris (the product of a human father and a cetran mother) where as Sephroth is still a 100% human injected in utero with Jenova cells. I just don't see how there could be anything special about his 'will'.
EDIT: because if a humans will is somehow stronger than Jenova, why was it a problem for the Cetra in the first place? With all their powers could they not have destroyed it, instead of sealing it?

Keep in mind that the Jenova Cloud and Co. meet up with is much weaker then she was when she first arrived on Gaia. Due to the Cetra's sealing, she been in a comatose state for 2,000 years and she apparently hasn't gotten out of it. If she had stronger will, it is highly likely she could have gotten out of it.

Another thing to consider is that the reason why Sephiroth's will is so strong. Personally, I think it's because Sephiroth realizes that if Jenova's will was to dominate him, it would be like working for Shin-Ra all over again, only on a grander scale. Sephiroth's ego wouldn't stand for that. If you combine that with the fact that Jenova is weak, I think explains why he is in control of her and not the other way around. It could also be that Jenova doesn't care if Sephiroth is stronger then her as long as he is destroying the Planet.

In any case, SE hasn't told us why Sephiroth's will is stronger then Jenova's, just that it is. There is a good chance it has nothing to do with what species you are.

It is interesting to note that as Cloud is able to expel Sephroth from his mind, he probably has a strength of will that is at least at par with Sephiroth's or even stonger.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is interesting to note that as Cloud is able to expel Sephroth from his mind, he probably has a strength of will that is at least at par with Sephiroth's or even stonger.

Cloud pulling that off may have also had to do with Seph having just been physically killed while still holding Holy back.