Regarding The Lifestream And Afterlife

[Larom]

Heya guys! Just replayed VII again after 17 years since my fist playthrough. Just got to the Bugenhagen scene and it really made me thing about the Lifestream and VII's take on the afterlife.

Being so long since I played VII, I completely forgot about the way the setting works. Is it true that the lifestream isn't actually an afterlife and the people of Gaia's soul's are destroyed and made into Lifestream energy just to made used again to create new life? I wasn't sure if that was a mistranslation or not. But from everything I've seen so far, that's how it works.

I know back in AC we see Zack with Aeris in the church as spirits so I always thought of the Lifestream as just a normal afterlife. But after reading up on different forums, that was apparently an exception. The exception being Zack and Aeris' souls just haven't been dissolved into the Lifestream yet.

Does anyone know if there is something in the Ultimania that clarifies this? I really hope all this isn't true. Something about all the characters that I know and love just ceasing to exist and their soul's getting destroyed reaaallly bothers me. And to be honest, kind of ruins the story for me too. And what's worse, if I remember The Crystal from IX correctly, that's the exact same concept

 

[Larom]

just to be used again to create new life?*

Ughhh, typos..

 

[ChipNoir]

The Lifestream is basically the collect of all consciousness manifested as energy. The game doesn't really go to great lengths to explain this, beyond the vague notions of the "Planet" talking to Aerith, and occasionally screaming in unison for dramatic purposes. This collective that is ultimately the reason why the 'planet' itself chooses to defeat Meteor and spare human civilization at the time.

Basically, it's one big cloud of memories and energy. "Knowledge" as the Cetra put it. The energy it uses to manifest gets recycled, but the memories are never lost, at least a far as we know. But the amount of sentience those memories retain depends on both the version of VII's lore you're talking about, and who authored it.

In Dissidia, Sephiroth makes an interesting observation
""Perhaps we are born knowing everything, but are only allowed to live after having that knowledge sealed away." which seems to be an attempt by the scenario writers of Dissidia to comment on this idea.

The novella "Maiden who Walks the Planet." emphasizes this idea, as Aerith retains the integrity of her consciousness, and several departed characters are drawn out of the Lifestream to discuss their lives with her. Those who are tainted with JENOVA cells are incapable of joining this collective, namely Sephiroth and Hojo, and if not for Deus Ex Aerith, possibly Cloud, although Zack might be a counter example there.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Not to mention the ending of Crisis Core where Angeal's spirit picks up Zack to take him to the Lifestream after the latter dies.(That ending always makes me cry)

And before that during the second year in the events of the game where Zack meets Aerith, and he groggily asked as he woke up, "Heaven?"

 

[Larom]

The novella "Maiden who Walks the Planet." emphasizes this idea, as Aerith retains the integrity of her consciousness, and several departed characters are drawn out of the Lifestream to discuss their lives with her. Those who are tainted with JENOVA cells are incapable of joining this collective, namely Sephiroth and Hojo, and if not for Deus Ex Aerith, possibly Cloud, although Zack might be a counter example there.

Yeah that was the main thing other than the Bugenhagen scene that had me thinking. Is see this specific quote across most VII wiki's "Those who led good lives join with the Lifestream and their minds fragment and join the collective." from Maiden who Walks the Planet. And "Certain souls remain sentient after having returned to the planet" led me to believe that everyone was lost to oblivion then used to create new people, animals, etc. I hope one day it's at least said that VII souls retain their individuality in the Lifestream.

This is why I like zero mention of afterlife in fiction so it will let the player /reader / watcher decide xD

 

[Larom]

Not to mention the ending of Crisis Core where Angeal's spirit picks up Zack to take him to the Lifestream after the latter dies.(That ending always makes me cry)

And before that during the second year in the events of the game where Zack meets Aerith, and he groggily asked as he woke up, "Heaven?"

Yeah, most of the side works of FF like CC and AC have hints that Zack is in a heaven type place after his death. That's mostly why I never questioned it, since I've played CC and watched AC multiple times in the last couple years alone. I think I should have just not played VII so I wouldn't have seen that dang Bugenhagen scene!

And that ending scene always tears me up as well

 

[Tashasaurous]

The novella "Maiden who Walks the Planet." emphasizes this idea, as Aerith retains the integrity of her consciousness, and several departed characters are drawn out of the Lifestream to discuss their lives with her. Those who are tainted with JENOVA cells are incapable of joining this collective, namely Sephiroth and Hojo, and if not for Deus Ex Aerith, possibly Cloud, although Zack might be a counter example there.

Yeah that was the main thing other than the Bugenhagen scene that had me thinking. Is see this specific quote across most VII wiki's "Those who led good lives join with the Lifestream and their minds fragment and join the collective." from Maiden who Walks the Planet. And "Certain souls remain sentient after having returned to the planet" led me to believe that everyone was lost to oblivion then used to create new people, animals, etc. I hope one day it's at least said that VII souls retain their individuality in the Lifestream.

This is why I like zero mention of afterlife in fiction so it will let the player /reader / watcher decide xD

That makes sense.

Plus, the content in the XIII trilogy has somewhat a similiar thing when it comes to death; Just in case you haven't heard of it or played the games yet,

Spoiler

The Chaos in XIII universe are souls of the dead or something like that. When people die and go to the Unseen Realm, their souls fade into the Chaos before being recreated by Etro to be reborn into new bodies to become new people and the cycle goes on and on and on until the events of XIII-2.

 

[Larom]

The novella "Maiden who Walks the Planet." emphasizes this idea, as Aerith retains the integrity of her consciousness, and several departed characters are drawn out of the Lifestream to discuss their lives with her. Those who are tainted with JENOVA cells are incapable of joining this collective, namely Sephiroth and Hojo, and if not for Deus Ex Aerith, possibly Cloud, although Zack might be a counter example there.

Yeah that was the main thing other than the Bugenhagen scene that had me thinking. Is see this specific quote across most VII wiki's "Those who led good lives join with the Lifestream and their minds fragment and join the collective." from Maiden who Walks the Planet. And "Certain souls remain sentient after having returned to the planet" led me to believe that everyone was lost to oblivion then used to create new people, animals, etc. I hope one day it's at least said that VII souls retain their individuality in the Lifestream.

This is why I like zero mention of afterlife in fiction so it will let the player /reader / watcher decide xD

That makes sense.

Plus, the content in the XIII trilogy has somewhat a similiar thing when it comes to death; Just in case you haven't heard of it or played the games yet,

Spoiler

The Chaos in XIII universe are souls of the dead or something like that. When people die and go to the Unseen Realm, their souls fade into the Chaos before being recreated by Etro to be reborn into new bodies to become new people and the cycle goes on and on and on until the events of XIII-2.

I have played the XIII series actually. A bit of a cluster of exposition, but I didn't hate them like a lot of others did. The LR ending was actually really awesome to me actually xD

And what I like about XIII's afterlife is that the person can choose whether he/she would like to chill in the unseen realm or be reborn. So since it's not being recycled, and it's also the choice of the individual, that's awesome to me

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's probably worth looking up what the Cetra thought The Promised Land was/is. And consider that the Party assumes they will eventually meet Aerith there.

Things to think about... when it comes to interacting with mako, a strong will is necessary otherwise all the other minds in the Lifestream erode a person's sense of self. This is part of what happens to Cloud in the years he's with Hojo and a major part of the reason he didn't make it into SOLDIER in the first place. And that's when a person is in their body... it's probably worse in the Lifestrem itself.

Sephiroth is not incapable of joining the Lifestream because he has Jenova cells. He's incapable of joining the Lifestream because he himself has a strong enough will to resist it. So strong in fact that Aerith goes and finds other people in the Lifestream to help her stop him from dragging other souls tainted with Jenova into himself. The other thing is that it's never said that it's a bad thing that Sephiroth is keeping himself from dissolving into the Lifestream. What is bad is that he's specifically doing it to mess with the things living on the Planet, specifically Cloud. This is basically what Case of Lifestream Black/White is about. Maiden is a bit sticky when it comes to canon presentations of the Lifestream as it was written way before ACC or the OTWtaS short stories. So there may be contradictions.

My personal take on it (aka headcanon) is that people with weak wills tend to dissolve back into the Lifestream while those with strong wills don't. Or at the very least, they get to decide if they want to or not. Given that the entire party has fought Sephiroth in the Lifestream (never mind when Cloud and Tifa go in) with no problems, the odds of them having very strong wills is pretty good. So they probably aren't going anywhere after they die. I'd say this is more then likely true for anyone who can tolerate extreme mako exposure.

 

[Tashasaurous]

I have played the XIII series actually. A bit of a cluster of exposition, but I didn't hate them like a lot of others did. The LR ending was actually really awesome to me actually xD

And what I like about XIII's afterlife is that the person can choose whether he/she would like to chill in the unseen realm or be reborn. So since it's not being recycled, and it's also the choice of the individual, that's awesome to me

Well, I don't hate it that much, but it's definitely one of the worst FF titles thus far in my opinion. I think the best one out of all of the XIII games is LR. Better story, happy ending(I'm a sucker for happy endings).

The first one was just a complete mess, and the second one was...Meh, I suppose.

Always prefered the Compilation of FFVII, though. Advent Children and Crisis Core pretty much answered most of my questions about the original game with some changes, and I loved how Before Crisis's backstory turned out...some of it, at least, including it's ending, and the Case of ShinRa Novella.

On the other hand, the Unseen Realm, while dark, does kind of interest me too. I personally see Bhunivelze as a dark God with the powers of light with crazed plots; seeing humans nothing more than toys with no emotions and that he wanted to get rid of emotions.

 

[Ite]

Your personality disseminates and your Spirit Energy (“a word you should never forget&#8221 returns to the wellspring of the universe from whence it came. Your energy, coloured by its experiences in life, enriches the tapestry of the universe. Your whole life is merely a ‘there and back again’ tale.

Ghosts in the FFVII universe are egos that are strong enough to resist death, but this is by its very nature is greedy. Unnatural. Arguably hateful. That is why they prey upon the living, fighting them in graveyards and Gi caves and so forth. The exception is Aeris, whose unfinished work was *extremely important.*

After the events of FFVII, though, refusing to disseminate into the Lifestream is a colossal misstep. The only justification for her re-appearance is to stop Jenova by prodding Cloud in the right direction and by causing the rain that eventually banishes Geosrigma. Her and Zack remaining for the celebration is an affront to nature. Zack’s presence at all is an abomination.

/opinion

 

[RedFFWolf]

Hey there, welcome to the forums!

I had a huge reply for this, 'cause general stuff about the afterlife is a particular interest of mine, but my fingers had a meltdown and accidentally closed tab - maybe sparing people a convoluted TL;DR is no bad thing
(It compared a school of thought or two in this world with the Lifestream, where the latter differed, the concepts of ghosts in both our world and FFVII, how the souls in FFVII aren't what you call destroyed, and plenty more rambling stuff that is best suited to speech 'cause it looked woeful on text - I'm not too sad it's gone now, actually )

Why I really wanted to reply, even after losing that, is for this piece:

Something about all the characters that I know and love just ceasing to exist and their soul's getting destroyed reaaallly bothers me.

I went through a similar phase of thought last year after I stumbled across a fanfic piece where a character I particularly liked had their soul sucked out, which bothered me for a long time for a number of reasons till I got over it and myself - though, in comparison that's easier because it's just fanfic [but images haunt, eh?]. Anyway, I think attachment to fictional characters is another discussion (trust me, I know too well the consequences) - but, should you feel the need to talk about why the thought bothers you, some more, come chat with me through a PM or some other channel that suits you

 

[Larom]

Your personality disseminates and your Spirit Energy (“a word you should never forget”) returns to the wellspring of the universe from whence it came. Your energy, coloured by its experiences in life, enriches the tapestry of the universe. Your whole life is merely a ‘there and back again’ tale.

Ghosts in the FFVII universe are egos that are strong enough to resist death, but this is by its very nature is greedy. Unnatural. Arguably hateful. That is why they prey upon the living, fighting them in graveyards and Gi caves and so forth. The exception is Aeris, whose unfinished work was *extremely important.*

After the events of FFVII, though, refusing to disseminate into the Lifestream is a colossal misstep. The only justification for her re-appearance is to stop Jenova by prodding Cloud in the right direction and by causing the rain that eventually banishes Geosrigma. Her and Zack remaining for the celebration is an affront to nature. Zack’s presence at all is an abomination.

/opinion

Saying "/opinion" after telling me my ideal afterlife in a fictional setting is "greedy", "selfish", and "hateful" doesn't make you any less rude. And make no mistake, your whole reply was very rude. And from what everyone else has said, you're take on this isn't correct either. There's always that one guy who has to start drama and hide behind 'opinions'.. It almost seems like you're taking FFVII's lore as an actual religion with your use of 'abomination'.

 

[Larom]

Anyway, I think attachment to fictional characters is another discussion (trust me, I know too well the consequences) - but, should you feel the need to talk about why the thought bothers you, some more, come chat with me through a PM or some other channel that suits you

You're saying this like you think I believe the FFVII characters are real and they have souls. I don't get why you thought that just because I don't like the idea of a character's soul being destroyed in the lore of a fictional setting makes me think they're real people and I need to 'talk to someone'.

These forums 'seemed' pretty cool and helpful. Thanks again to the first few people for the nice discussions, the rest of them have me noping the hell out of this site though.

 

[RedFFWolf]

You're saying this like you think I believe the FFVII characters are real and they have souls. I don't get why you thought that just because I don't like the idea of a character's soul being destroyed in the lore of a fictional setting makes me think they're real people and I need to 'talk to someone'.

These forums 'seemed' pretty cool and helpful. Thanks again to the first few people for the nice discussions, the rest of them have me noping the hell out of this site though.

That's far from my intention - my apologies if it has come across that way. For the first part I meant my own attachment to characters (but not that they are actually real, of course), and to you I meant the whole concept of souls being destroyed leaving you uncomfortable.

And what I meant about wanting to talk about it some more is because it's a bothersome feeling I've once had (regardless of any character attachment of mine), and that if you wanted to make it a point of discussion, I'd be interested - but obviously this couldn't have been the place for it, because the intention of this thread is to understand the Lifestream as an afterlife, more. It was no intent of mine to patronise, and nor did I see you as requiring some sort of "external help" of sorts.

It is a sincere apology of mine for any misunderstanding. (I blame my generally lazy efforts of revising any quick typing of mine )


In response to your reply to Mr. Ite, he was suggesting his own idea of FFVII's afterlife, and that in this idea certain events that have happened or could happen would be as he described it as - his use of "greedy", an "abomination" etc., relates to the going-ons within his own opinion/theory of it.

 

[Ite]

Your personality disseminates and your Spirit Energy (“a word you should never forget”) returns to the wellspring of the universe from whence it came. Your energy, coloured by its experiences in life, enriches the tapestry of the universe. Your whole life is merely a ‘there and back again’ tale.

Ghosts in the FFVII universe are egos that are strong enough to resist death, but this is by its very nature is greedy. Unnatural. Arguably hateful. That is why they prey upon the living, fighting them in graveyards and Gi caves and so forth. The exception is Aeris, whose unfinished work was *extremely important.*

After the events of FFVII, though, refusing to disseminate into the Lifestream is a colossal misstep. The only justification for her re-appearance is to stop Jenova by prodding Cloud in the right direction and by causing the rain that eventually banishes Geosrigma. Her and Zack remaining for the celebration is an affront to nature. Zack’s presence at all is an abomination.

/opinion

Saying "/opinion" after telling me my ideal afterlife in a fictional setting is "greedy", "selfish", and "hateful" doesn't make you any less rude. And make no mistake, your whole reply was very rude. And from what everyone else has said, you're take on this isn't correct either. There's always that one guy who has to start drama and hide behind 'opinions'.. It almost seems like you're taking FFVII's lore as an actual religion with your use of 'abomination'.

I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I wasn’t talking about an afterlife, I was talking about Undeath — specifically, ghosts. That’s the only evidence we have in FFVII of spirits beyond life. I was not attacking your ideals or your opinions, merely stating that spirits who cling to the material plane are suffering abominations, like Gi Nattak. Even Kadaj finds redemption when he accepts his fate and returns to the Lifestream.

As for what the Lifestream is like? That’s not what I was talking about, but I’ll have a go. It seems like the evidence in the game points to a dissemenation of personality. Your soul dilutes into the stream of life and helps give birth to the next generation of plants, animals, and materia.

In the real world, it’s my personal philosophy that without a sensory organ like a brain, we wouldn’t perceive anything after death (just as we did not perceive anything before birth) but that’s entirely subjective. Our visions of the planes beyond the material cannot be proven nor disproven.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Come on... really guys? This is a newbies' first impression of us?

@Larom: Don't take Mr. Ite too seriously. He is/was the author of one of the longest, most detailed FFVII novelizations on the internet. In it he's pretty clear that he's only basing it on stuff in the original game and NOT the greater Compilation. He also uses a lot of headcanon. A lot of times, he brings his own personal idea of what's happening in the game to the table and not a more ambiguous one that leaves space for other people's ideas.

 

[Ite]

Come on... really guys? This is a newbies' first impression of us?

@Larom: Don't take Mr. Ite too seriously. He is/was the author of one of the longest, most detailed FFVII novelizations on the internet. In it he's pretty clear that he's only basing it on stuff in the original game and NOT the greater Compilation. He also uses a lot of headcanon. A lot of times, he brings his own personal idea of what's happening in the game to the table and not a more ambiguous one that leaves space for other people's ideas.

That’s a fair assessment. I’ll be in the dining car.

 

[demonwolf]

My own headcanon for the lifestream is not dissimilar to Mr. Ite's. You lose your sense of 'self' in the lifestream after assimilating, leaving behind 'knowledge.' I really do think that some rule was seriously bent for Zack to still be around for AC.

The idea that characters I love will disappear in the lifestream once they die is hard for me, too. I'm the type that gets attached to characters and there's no shame in admitting that. But there's also romance in the finality of death and I've come to appreciate that as I grew up. Aerith's never going to come back. Zack honestly should not have been there in AC since he'd "led a good life" and been dead for so long there's no justification for him to not have already joined the lifestream.

@Larom you prolly misread the tone in Mr. Ite's and Red-san's posts. They weren't trying to be rude or patronizing.

Edit: Got ninja'd by a bunch of posts

 

[ChipNoir]

....Welp this raises some red flags.

 

[fancy]

@Larom you prolly misread the tone in Mr. Ite's and Red-san's posts. They weren't trying to be rude or patronizing.

^This. I think things are heating up over a misunderstanding. Words can sometimes read rather harsh on the internet, especially in a debate setting like this. But don't take'em to heart, Larom. Trust me when I say that Red and Ite are some of the nicest, coolest peeps around and that this first impression you seem to be getting from them is far from reality.

I hope this doesn't run you off the forum! I suggest checking out the lawls and shitposting and occasionally inspiring things that go on in the general discussion threads and whatnot to see our 'lighter' side.

Sorry for not actually attributing to the original subject lmao

 

[lithiumkatana17]

....Welp this raises some red flags.

...Are you going to elaborate...?

 

[Roger]

My own headcanon for the lifestream is not dissimilar to Mr. Ite's. You lose your sense of 'self' in the lifestream after assimilating, leaving behind 'knowledge.' I really do think that some rule was seriously bent for Zack to still be around for AC.

The idea that characters I love will disappear in the lifestream once they die is hard for me, too. I'm the type that gets attached to characters and there's no shame in admitting that. But there's also romance in the finality of death and I've come to appreciate that as I grew up. Aerith's never going to come back. Zack honestly should not have been there in AC since he'd "led a good life" and been dead for so long there's no justification for him to not have already joined the lifestream.

@Larom you prolly misread the tone in Mr. Ite's and Red-san's posts. They weren't trying to be rude or patronizing.

Edit: Got ninja'd by a bunch of posts

Angeal was clearly still channeling his will through the Lifestream to help Zack out a good seven years after his death. Compared to that Sephiroth and Zack in AC aren''t really a problem.

 

[demonwolf]

Oh, well I stand corrected. I don't know much about Crisis Core but wow 7 years? Give the man some closure, goodness.

 

[Larom]

@Obsidian Fire - Well crap, I saw your reply first via email and had almost 6 paragraphs of discussion as to why what Mr. Ite and Red's comments irked me. Then my email decides to update and give me 10 more notifications for this thread.

Suffice it to say I'm used to toxic forums like Blizzard, Gamefaqs, and MMOChampion's and took Mr. Ite's comment as less of discussion contribution and more trying to play devils advocate for trolling's sake. And Red's as a psychiatrist patronizing. And boy did the last paragraph come across that way. Both coming in within a few minutes of each other didn't help either haha.

@Mr. Ite "Our visions of the planes beyond the material cannot be proven nor disproven." Aye, as more or less a deist I don't believe there is much of a way to tell, so I stay optimistic. Part of the reason why I like works of fiction have no mention of an afterlife. So as to supplant the viewer/gamers personal preference. The original reply seemed like it had more personal belief than intended, so I took that as confrontation in spite of the original topic being mainly about facts of what Square meant for the VII franchise.

@RedFFWolf No, I get you now That last part just came across to me as "I think you have a fixation on fictional characters and you can PM me so we can talk about why that's not healthy."

@Minato That's another good point I completely forgot about. Seems like either the 'new guard' confirmed with the 'old guard' of the specifics of the Lifestream during CC and AC's development, or they just had their own interpretation. I'd like to think the former.