Religion and deities in the setting (split from "Trace of Two Pasts novel discussion")

[Shademp]

Though I do suspect @Shademp will hate this part:

“I’ve heard that there’s a church in the Sector 5 Slums. In the past, people gathered here and prayed to God, but nobody comes here anymore. I’ve been thinking that we should hide here a little…”

“I’ve heard about God! Does he really exist?” Aerith was surprised.

“According to his believers, he does. I heard that when they pray, they get empowered.”

“Pray…?”

“It’s something like us Cetra speaking to the planet, although I don’t really understand it. But, since no one is coming to the church anymore, there probably aren’t any believers. It’s too bad for God, but it seems like it’s great for our situation.”

Story time!

When the world was young and so were we, over half a decade ago, me and The Twilight Mexican (aka Tres) were collaborating on writing up (and hopefully designing) a fan-made sequel to wrap up the final loose ends left behind by the Compilation of FFVII. The project was overambitious and no game or even a demo came out of it but the creative process was very stimulating and enlightening.

One of the main challenges we faced was making it so that this story, and the theoretical game, would feel like it belonged in the world of FFVII. Any element that lacked precedence in FFVII canon, be it dialogue breaking new ground or a gameplay mechanic that is rare or even unseen in the Final Fantasy franchise, ran the risk of taking the player out of the story and reminding them that this was "merely" a fanfic. In this sense our creative hands were tied in more ways than it is for the official writers and game designers working for Square.

Thusly, each element that seemed to break new ground or do something that had never before been seen in FFVII had to be super carefully considered and weighed.

I must emphasize that Tres wrote 95% of the scenario material and he is the true genius when it comes to writing FFVII dialogue and making the voices leap out of the page in a way that it feels like the official characters are speaking. My role became that of the "inhibitor" or "limiter", pointing out when I thought the scenarios went too wild, had to be dialed down or replaced by something else entirely. Funny thing is that the longer the project went on, the more frequently our roles became reversed with me being the person suggesting a crazy scenario and then Tres rightfully pointing out "hang on, this doesn't work". It was a wonderful process of back-and-forth, fine-tuning the elements into something we both considered functional.

One such scenario suggested by Tres involved multiple FFVII characters speaking at length about God while they were in a church. The dialogue, as always, was great and tugged at the emotions. Two splinters were acting up in my brain as I read this however.

#1: No FFVII characters has ever spoken ABOUT God and never entered into theological discussion in the way that this scene did.​

#2: My own bias towards thinking that it's a big deal to add more detail to the murky, real-life-esque religious elements found within FFVII's aesthetic.​

I stood firmly in my position that the theology scene did not have enough precedence in official FFVII canon and that the religious elements (churches, prayers) should remain as only an aesthetic and nothing that the game ever discusses or delves into. I counted every official instance of a character saying "Oh God" or "Oh GAWD!" as expressions that did not reveal the world's lore, but rather showed examples of common real-life phrases bleeding into the FFVII script without actual thought to its MEANING worldbuilding-wise.

Some of these opinions I still retain BUT Trace of Two Pasts has now broken new ground and created a precedence for not just characters speaking about God but SPECIFICALLY linking the churches and prayers in FFVII to a Judeo-Christian type god. It made sense to assume this link before the book came out, yes, but to me it makes a huge difference that now the novel actually adds some specificity and confirmation to what the church in the slums actually is. The church is not SIMPLY an aesthetic borrowed thoughtlessly by a Japanese game development company, it now IS a church devoted to a God that is for all intents and purposes a Judeo-Christian god.

*EDIT: I am remembering now, once again, this scene from Episode Nanaki where a boy says "God has granted him to me." so that is arguably the first instance of the God concept being more solidifed in the world of FFVII. I still think that the new scene between Aerith and Ifalna holds stronger implications lore-wise.*


What do I think about Nojima's choice to enlighten us about the church's true in-universe purpose and history? I actually dig it. No longer do I have to keep myself in this limbo about FFVII canon where I only know of the church as an aesthetic and where I strictly speaking know nothing about its religious lore. Nojima has once again, through the Remake project, fleshed out the world and showed that he has the courage to make decisions about things that were previously only limited to fanfics. I applaud Nojima on this.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Shademp - I guess a lot hangs on which Japanese word for God was used, or whether it was the transliterated English word 'god', and what Japanese intends to be understood by that word.
When I teach classic civ I have to spend a long time unpicking what my students understand by the word 'god' before we can have a proper discussion about classical religions.

 

[Shademp]

I guess a lot hangs on which Japanese word for God was used, or whether it was the transliterated English word 'god', and what Japanese intends to be understood by that word.

Very true. The finer details and meanings may yet be changed by further analysis of the text.

 

[Mayo Master]

What comes to mind is that while several elements in the lore borrow the imagery of Judeo-Christian religions, the allegory/actual meaning can be quite different. For instance, I recall how much the Minerva sculpture in Crisis Core is similar to the image of Virgin Mary, but the entity they're supposed to represent is quite different in nature.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Christian imagery and meaning is one of the fundamental underpinnings of western culture. It goes really, really deep and permeates practically everything, even for people who aren't Christians and know very little about it. And it may be the case that there are some people on the SE design team who are very deeply versed in Christian lore. But in general, when non-Judaeo-Christian-Islamic societies borrow Christianity imagery, it just doesn't mean the same thing as it would to someone coming from a society imbued with that symbolism. The same is true in reverse, of course. Just because we borrow their imagery, it doesn't follow that we meant by it what they understand us to mean.

 

[Odysseus]

Evangelion is a deep and thoughtful commentary on Christian theology I promise.

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[kathy202]

Knowing both Christians and Buddhists IRL but knowing nothing about either religion, the church mentioned in the text here felt like a generic notion of spirituality and faith that exists in both religions. The fact that it's been abandoned feels like the people of Midgar had forgotten faith, likely in their pursuit of technology and possibly the "science is enough, no need for God, we solve problems ourselves" arrogance that comes with it. Places of worship are often also places of refuge in tough times and there's some irony in the Cetra seeking hiding in such a place built by the race who's hunting them down at the moment.

Well, that's just the way I read it. Don't know if it was the author's intention, but I like it this way.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Since they're talking about going to a church and praying in the passage posted, I doubt this is referring to some kind of deity from Asian beliefs.

To expand a bit, I can't imagine that anyone would say that a Buddhist temple or a Shinto shrine is a church. Not the literal Christian capital G God as Christianity doesn't seem to exist in FF7, but perhaps a similar kind of figure in their universe.

Also, Midgar's design has a "this is what they think the west is like" vibe to it imo - would a church not add to that?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not the literal Christian capital G God as Christianity doesn't seem to exist in FF7, but perhaps a similar kind of figure in their universe.

Be very afraid if the names "Glabados" or "Ajora" crop up ...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Be very afraid if the names "Glabados" or "Ajora" crop up ...

Yeah, I doubt they'll show up, thankfully.

We'll get Bhunivelze instead.

 

[waw]

The Aerith portions of this are getting slowly translated and uploaded to Twitter. (iStanleyFF7 I think).

Something that really, really stood out to me is Ifalna and Aerith discussing the Church and "God." It's a non-Cetra religion of what seems to be a purely fictional deity that functions at least, somewhat, like Christianity. I think this was as big a reveal for some of us Lore nuts as "the Republic of Junon."

So why do I think this is so big? Well, Genesis referred to the Goddess a lot (implied if not confirmed as Minerva). The Cetra seemed to... worship... the Planet (i.e. Nature/Shinto-esque?) for lack of a better phrase here. So what's up with this Church with an unnamed God that's somewhere poor people would congregate and pray to? Not sure, but it's certainly not reflected in what little we know of Cetra culture, and it doesn't seem to exist in Wutai with DaChao with their worship of Leviathan. It's also not tied to Loveless or Minerva. It's a really different cultural concept. It may be a glimpse into the Republic of Junon culture (assuming the Republic extended to the region of Kalm/Midgar and/or Midgar was predominently populated with Junonese folk).

A nifty thought: Angelic wings are heavily connected to both the Goddess/Minerva (her statue) as well as Jenova-forms (Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis). The Church certainly has a Christian feel, so I expect Angelic imagery too (I think I recall some, but can't say for certain at the moment). Feathered wings are heavenly/cosmically divine...

So three questions:

1. Why do Deities and Jenova-forms have Wings? Even Jenova has... wing-like-things? Is Jenova a fallen goddess/Angel?
2. Will we ever learn more about this "god" and is he fake OR is he an Eidolon/Summoned Beast like Odin? Possibly Bahamut?
3. Why did Humans start a God-based faith rather than a Goddess/Planet based one? Rather, why would folk create a false religion in a world where gods and cosmic entities are very, very real?

Now, all of this is probably nothing and completely unimportant but it is making me wonder about the nature of Jenova. This whole time, I considered Jenova a hive-like creature from space, just some sort of Cthulhu-horror biological entity that fed on planets and that was either bioengeineered by some long lost race (a la Creator in FFIV sort of thing if not the Al Bhed) that was non-sentient. I've firmly been in the camp that Jenova alone lacks true sentience and that "mind" evolved in Jenova with Sephiroth. Prior to that, I considered a mass of instincts and desires, but not really thought. However, if it is a Deity/Angel fallen from high, it would explain it's weird nearly-immortal genetic tissue, the wings, and imply a sort of divine (or infernal) intelligence.

So this leads to the fourth question... what if Jenova isn't really just an alien at all... but God/Angel? It's been an implication but one I've heavily dismissed, personally.

How poetic that the divine cosmic Christian deity falls from the heavens just to descend on a nature-worshipping people. (Roman/Celtic historian in me just squeed writing that).

I know a lot of this goes away from God/Church stuff in the book, but that sparked some really interesting thoughts for me.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The summons in FFVII don't act like gods. They are subject to the command of mortals, not the other way around. The closest parallel I can think of is a Muslim djinn, trapped in a bottle and called forth at the will of the human who holds it. Human beings don't worship things they can control. Religion evolved as a means of exerting some control (however imaginary) over the uncontrollable: the weather, disease, the harvest, forces of nature generally.

The impression I received from the novella was that Ifalna used the term 'god' in a very generic (and gender-neutral) way. I'd be really surprised if Nojima put much thought into it.

As for the wings, they symbolise freedom for those who have none.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The thing to keep in mind about Jenova is that it is a *mind reader*. It reads the memories in people's minds, and then it uses that information to make them see things that aren't really there or as fodder for what to shapeshift into.

So Jenova, a shapeshifter, could very easily figure out what religious symbolism would be most effective to use to manipulate people just by looking into their heads and... seeing all this cultural information... and appropriating it.

It's probably worth mentioning that both Leviathan and Minerva are summons. Leviathan *is* a summon and Minerva is compared to a summon by the dev team (it's the Planet's summon, essentially). So it feels... like a safe bet... that whatever else people are worshiping is also some kind of summon-like being. And there are... plenty of "god-like" summons to pick from. Ifrit, Rhamu, Titan, Odin, Bahamut, Hades... just to name a few. You could even toss in gender-flipped Shiva given what Shiva is like IRL. It should be noted that it doesn't matter than the summons *aren't* actual gods. It's that people *think* they are that is the important part.

I think the thing that people don't like about the book is that it takes something that was always... nebulous about in the OG (how Tifa feels about Cloud) and makes it very obviously only one thing (Tifa definetly *likes* Cloud). So it makes it that much harder to argue that the Cloud/Tifa pairing is something that Tifa doesn't want as much as Cloud does.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Leviathan is called "water god" in Wutai, so maybe the beings in the summon materia are revered as gods in-universe even if we don't see it that way from a meta PoV.

E.g. the item that got translated as "Leviathan Scales" was "Water God's Scales".

 

[JBedford]

VII Remake seemed to imply summons are born from the thoughts of people. Kinda like Heroic Spirits in Fate. Materia is kinda human thoughts crystallised after all.

Shiva is from a folktale explaining why the Icicle Area is so icy.

So a people revering Leviathan as a water god could have created the summon Leviathan.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

And Aerith starts with Prayer materia in Remake as well.

 

[Makoeyes987]

VII Remake seemed to imply summons are born from the thoughts of people. Kinda like Eidolons in FFIX.

Fixed that for you.

This is 100% FFIX. The Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari says the same thing. The thoughts, beliefs, cultures and folklores of humans mix together with the spirit energy of the Planet giving birth to summon entities. And as time, cultures, and folklore progresses, the Eidolons or summons, evolve as well.

Shiva was originally a young girl but she grew up and became stronger as her belief and lore changed with time in FFIX. This would also explain why there were multiple Bahamuts in FFVII. They could be regional or differing shapes of Bahamut through the ages.

So yeah, once again the link between IX and VII is made apparent.

 

[waw]

Funny I posted on topic but didn't reference anything that came before. I hadn't caught up with the thread yet... my bad y'all!

The summons in FFVII don't act like gods. They are subject to the command of mortals, not the other way around.

Regardless of how they work or what they are, Leviathan does get treated as a god by the Wutai folk (see quote below).

Leviathan is called "water god" in Wutai, so maybe the beings in the summon materia are revered as gods in-universe even if we don't see it that way from a meta PoV.

I'm not sure what a god really is or isn't, I've never me one. But it's something that FF lore tends to play with. The Celts and Japanese alike had a different understanding of "god" and it certainly was something that could conform to the whims of humans. In Celtic lore, various ways of binding these deities as well as besseching them exist. In Japanese Shinto and even Shugendo lore, it is possible to beseech the gods for various favors, or even to take a part of the shrine to a new location to create a second shrine to the same deity (very reminiscent of OG's materia breaking off to be able to have multiple people summon Leviathan!). To take it further into Shinto/Cetra parallels, the Kami are not all powerful Abrahamic beings but rather elemental/animist local deities with specific roles in which some become more prominent over time. Things like flowing water exist in order to cleanse kegare, and stagnant water becomes tainted and can taint Kami. The role of water in Shinto is very similar to that of the Lifestream and the nature of the Cetra, Healing Rain, etc. The stagnant Lifestream/pollutions like the G Substance sort of stuff and the Black Liquid form which Kadaj is born, Geostigma, and more all recall kegare very closely.

Eidolons/Aeons/Espers/Summons are all some sort of higher dimensional/more powerful being but an image/memory of them gets called forth in most FFs that I can think of. Perhaps we interact with Summons most in FFIV, in which they are incredibly, incredibly powerful beings (the Fey if nothing else) which are akin to a pretty Japanese understanding of gods (a la kami). Rydia calls them forth in battle, but we do see other people can force them to their will, despite how powerful they are.

It's quite possible these magical entities are just subject to different rules in the physical world but are deific nonetheless.

Shiva froze the Northern Continent after Jenova landed, right? This is incredible power beyond what the party makes her do. Heck, if Shinra could make a summon do that, they probably wouldn't need SOLDIER or half their machines. I imagine if Shiva can freeze the whole northern continent like that, Bahamut could be rendered far more powerful than the Junon Canon! But something limits their power in summon form it seems... whether it's the summoner or summon materia only contains a fragment/memory of the real/original one, it's hard to say.

However, what we do see in the world of FF7 is a consistent link between the Summoned Monsters and deities. Leviathan establishes one for sure, right? Dachao/Godo's Omni Change is definitely reminsicent of Asura (and I do believe there's a link there, returning to FFIV, Asura and Leviathan were married. It's not a coincidence that Leviathan and something looking like Asura are in Wutai culture). Minerva is akin to a summon and called goddess repeatedly.

So whatever "God" resides over that church... very well could be a summon. If it looks western/Abrahamic in any way (as the Church does moreso than something Buddhist or Shinto. Ramuh probably fits the bill closest to what we think of as the Western God typically is depicted.

The thing to keep in mind about Jenova is that it is a *mind reader*. It reads the memories in people's minds, and then it uses that information to make them see things that aren't really there or as fodder for what to shapeshift into.

So Jenova, a shapeshifter, could very easily figure out what religious symbolism would be most effective to use to manipulate people just by looking into their heads and... seeing all this cultural information... and appropriating it.

I think this is why I've dismissed the idea of anything biblical or deific surrounding Jenova. Having just recently played through the After Years again, and how they had nods to the first 6 FF games being in the same universe, I could see some sort of big cosmic story being worked out of space travel for the whole of the FF series and connecting everything overtly one day. (I should write those thoughts up on at somepoint) but it makes there to be very little higher-planes beings that are not just dwelling in the Void (what we might think a god does). So I dismissed the idea of a godly Jenova long ago. However, with this slightly deeper reference to a god here with the Church, Jenova could be a fallen angel. For some reason, we never actually find out if Jenova's form that we see is it's real/natural form, or if it's still in something it shapeshifted into. This angelic body could be something designed just to mess with the people of the Planet, or it could be it's natural form. We don't really know.

There's something deeply funny about Jenova being Lucifer that fell to earth...and died and they just keep using Lucifer-equivalent's body to make special warriors. Then again, all of this could play the Sefirots being the path to godliness after all....

This is 100% FFIX. The Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari says the same thing. The thoughts, beliefs, cultures and folklores of humans mix together with the spirit energy of the Planet giving birth to summon entities. And as time, cultures, and folklore progresses, the Eidolons or summons, evolve as well.

Shiva was originally a young girl but she grew up and became stronger as her belief and lore changed with time in FFIX. This would also explain why there were multiple Bahamuts in FFVII. They could be regional or differing shapes of Bahamut through the ages.

So yeah, once again the link between IX and VII is made apparent.

Mako, with this in mind, how do you approach the story of Shiva freezing the Northern Continent? Cut content from OG made it clear that monsters preserved in Lifestream/sorta were the Summons. (Sephiroth had an explanation around the Red Dragon fight, right?) So what is Shiva in the context of FFVII Remake and can we assume it was a real entity at one point before being this memory/thoughtform?

 

[ph14basicbitch]

I went and took a quick glance at the PS1 script cause it's been a while... Every time they say "Leviathan" in the English PS1 game during the Wutai quest and Yuffie's pagoda quest, they are saying "water god" in Japanese. You don't know it's Leviathan in JP until when you get the materia, cause the materia is called Leviathan materia.

Maybe the water god is so revered they don't say its name. Or maybe it doesn't have a single name, it's just some "water god snake thing" that has 1000 names and Leviathan is written for the player's benefit.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I just assumed that there was a Leviathan which was an (imaginary) deity and then the summons Leviathan which was regarded as a temporary physical manifestation of Its blessings on believers. I can't accept that human beings would worship things they can control.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

I just assumed that there was a Leviathan which was an (imaginary) deity and then the summons Leviathan which was regarded as a temporary physical manifestation of Its blessings on believers. I can't accept that human beings would worship things they can control.

Well, have you seen how summons work in Remake?

They are essentially useless except when equipped as stat sticks because you can't summon them in every battle which gives off the impression of "they show up whenever they hell they want", you have to use 1-2 ATB bars to get them to do anything at all, their AI sucks, their skills aren't reliable, and jfc I can't even control when they unleash their signature attack on command.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, with this in mind, how do you approach the story of Shiva freezing the Northern Continent? Cut content from OG made it clear that monsters preserved in Lifestream/sorta were the Summons. (Sephiroth had an explanation around the Red Dragon fight, right?) So what is Shiva in the context of FFVII Remake and can we assume it was a real entity at one point before being this memory/thoughtform?

I honestly think it's no different than Eidolons existing as part of history in Gaia of FFIX.

Shiva was "born" earlier through the ages by whatever beliefs and culture existed throughout FFVII's populace. Then, when Jenova landed and wounded the planet, Shiva was around and helped to heal that planetary wound because just like Eidolons in FFIX, Summons in FFVII exist to help protect the Planet as well.

As for that Early Material stuff I don't really take cut content seriously in regards to canon because, well. It was cut

The writers have gone in a different direction as we see now, so that cut content is just a "what if" at this point. Regarding summons, I really just see there a strong parallel existing between VII and IX that only gets reinforced as time goes on.

This also matches the summon lore that exists with X, however there is the added element of Fayth. Fayth are people kept in a state between life and death where their thoughts, dreams, imagination and spirit energy mix together with outside ambient spirit energy (pyreflies) to call forth (or rather manifest) Aeons. Rather than rely on spheres (or materia), actual living people sacrifice themselves to become Fayth and focus all their mental and spiritual energy to conjure up mythical being into reality.

 

[waw]

I just assumed that there was a Leviathan which was an (imaginary) deity and then the summons Leviathan which was regarded as a temporary physical manifestation of Its blessings on believers. I can't accept that human beings would worship things they can control.

But... they really did in both Ireland and Japan. "Worship" has somewhat different connotations, but we see shrines, offerings, gestures of faith, beseeching these actions, and belief that these things were following the needs/desire of communities and people. Is it that different?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Leviathan is a guardian deity, and Wutaians worship it for protection against storms and floods. However that deity was created, is unknown. But like all other Eidolons, that belief gave it life.

It's somewhat similar to the concept to the Primals of FFXIV, however Eidolons and Summons cannot simply exist on their own in reality just by consuming spirit energy around them. Summons have been shown to manifest briefly on their own but they are always tied to their materia and not just able to exist like a living being. However, like a Primal, belief gives them life.

...Summons thankfully don't brainwash people into worshipping them to enhance themselves and grow stronger, though. That's a big difference.