That's true but they're all "Bahamut." Differing versions of Bahamut, perhaps throughout the ages or regional variants. And because there are multiple Bahamut materia, it means Bahamut's spirit energy has been crystalized into materia several times.
It's like how Sephiroth spawned several remnants of himself from the Lifestream in AC. They're all different aspects of his consciousness/s
I'm really not convinced that this is the case. There's no reason to suspect the original Bahamut's precise bundle of spirit energy has been wholesale reinserted into a new dragon body to live out multiple lives. Meanwhile, there's plenty of reason (i.e. FFIX's explanation on summon variations being due to cultural differences, as well as the fact different oral traditions describe Bahamut differently in VII's world) to believe different myths/folktales/collective memories of Bahamut in different forms allow different incarnations of the same historical figure to be summoned.
Sephiroth's essence persisting within the Lifestream as Sephiroth-himself is portrayed as nothing short of obscenity and a defilement of the natural order. I really doubt wholly natural -- albeit divine (i.e. "higher than man") -- creatures who are of the planet and the planet alone have been doing this. Especially for no particular purpose. Sephiroth damn sure has a goal in mind when he does it.
In any case, even the Cetra are seen to wholly dilute eventually once their soul has gone to the Lifestream itself.
Maybe the time between dying and being assimilated into the Lifestream is like the bardo.
It would be neat if one of their indigenous religions focused on training the individual to withstand assimilation into the Lifestream, the ultimate goal being to maintain the integrity of the self and be reborn whole, so to speak, retaining memories of one's previous life.
Other branches of that religion would frown on this goal and see in the dissolution of the self the ultimate goal of existence.
I also quite like the idea of how, after I die, the Planet goes through my memories like junk disposal men going through someone's house after their death. All the memories get put in storage somewhere, but probably not organised in the same way that they were organised in my mind. Maybe the Lifestream has one "storage locker" for everybody's memories of love, another for memories of delicious meals, another for memories of rain, etc.., etc...
I wonder where these "storage lockers" are if not in the Lifestream - and if they are in the Lifestream, how are they kept separate from the spirit energy that gets recycled into new life?
While looking through the Japanese terms used to talk about the Lifestream's memory... so many of them are what you would use for "memory" in a computer... or even things like "saving files to something". It's almost like the Lifestream is a Computer Hardrive with no memory limit and "life" is the RAM/CPU it does computations with. Materia sounds a lot like USB drives, etc.
And... this isn't the last time Nomura will use computers as a metaphor for how "memories" are storied by some world storage system (or how "hearts" are stored for that matter). Kingdom Hearts uses a lot of the same ideas and terminology in Japanese, but presents them a lot more literally and a lot less metaphorically in the game world. The ammount of shared terminology between Kingdom Hearts and FFVII metaphysics is... too much to think it isn't on purpose.
While looking through the Japanese terms used to talk about the Lifestream's memory... so many of them are what you would use for "memory" in a computer... or even things like "saving files to something". It's almost like the Lifestream is a Computer Hardrive with no memory limit and "life" is the RAM/CPU it does computations with. Materia sounds a lot like USB drives, etc.
And... this isn't the last time Nomura will use computers as a metaphor for how "memories" are storied by some world storage system (or how "hearts" are stored for that matter). Kingdom Hearts uses a lot of the same ideas and terminology in Japanese, but presents them a lot more literally and a lot less metaphorically in the game world. The ammount of shared terminology between Kingdom Hearts and FFVII metaphysics is... too much to think it isn't on purpose.
Do they ever use other words for memories with other connotations? (I'd love to see a sort of list, that's a big ask though). It's interesting as computer memory files, to me, are a bit different. They're... downloadable, transferable and we have the weirdness with Hojo and Lucrecia in DoC and digital memory from them..... There's maybe some big implications here.
That aside, on the matter of summons, I don't think they have to die to be *in* the Lifestream as Memories/Summons/Materia. They might just... ascend.
If my notes are right, this was the cut text from Sephiroth in the Temple of Ancients :
かつて古代種がさかえたころ 豊富な魔晄の光をあびて 育った種族がいた」
During the time when the Ancients prospered there existed beings that grew up bathed in abundant Mako.
セフィロスSephiroth:「自然な形の純すいなモンスターたちだ。 いまでもいくつかの種族は残っている」
They were pure creatures of natural shape. Several remain even now.
ある種族は、マテリアのなかに 自らの命を封じこめ、生を永遠に変えた」
These beings sealed their consciousness within materia, altering their lives for eternity.
Aerith:「召喚のマテリア……」The summon materia...
セフィロスSephiroth:「然り。理解のはやい娘だ」Correct. Such a clever girl.
セフィロスSephiroth:「この神殿を守るものは 古代種の時代から時をこえt 生きながらえてきたモンスター」
The creatures that protect this temple have lived long, relics from the age of the Ancients.
セフィロスSephiroth:「おまえたちよりもこの星にふさわしい種族たちだ」
They belong to this planet even more than you do.
So this is cut material (and we've had cut material somewhat discarded by some of us here because it's been cut, but I also don't recall something stating that Summoned Beasts died at one point.
So we have a variation of creatures, I'm going to call them Eidolons for the time being, that bathed in Mako (a bit like SOLDIER I must admit) and they sealed their consciousness inside Materia.
In the above, I want to draw attention to this line, I must translate it a bit differently, not because it's wrong, but I have other thoughts on it now:
ある種族は、マテリアのなかに 自らの命を封じこめ、生を永遠に変えた」
These beings sealed their consciousness within materia, altering their lives for eternity.
The translation says "consciousness," which sorta fits our discussion. However, the character in question is "命." (Life Force, Life span, fate, something like this?) I'm probably wrong but I would translate this more as "life" or event "fate" perhaps. These beings sealed... their something... in the materia - it doesn't read to me as a copy/memory as I originally thought however. It is their essence/being, I would think, making their whole lives/being within these stones. Can I get better Japanese readers chiming in on this kanji? While consciousness sounds really good in English, I could take that as a "copy/memory" (I had never read this in Japanese before this post).
Now this is cut, so I don't think we can take as canon, but unless it's contradicted, it probably explains the mechanics of the FF7 universe in my opinion.
Conclusions:
If we have a creature bathed in mako naturally (Eidolon perhaps) it seems like it serves the Planet/is close to the Planet. From these creatures, we could have mythologies and social memories (like the Water God of Wutai) and tales from when these creatures were alive (Shiva freezing the Northern Continent). But the materia might be a way of preserving their being for all time, allowing folks to call upon them.
Why did they do this? Pure Speculation ahead:
I'm reminded of FFIV where Rydia had to beat Eidolons to get them to aid her in a symbiotic relationship. They aided the heroes in protecting the Crystals and the Planets. Perhaps these Eidolons sealed themselves in Materia specifically to help the Cetra against the Calamity. I do not know why their own power wasn't enough, why being a Summon was a preferable existence.
This just makes SOLDIER sound like a perversion of Eidolons to me (due to not being naturally occuring and having Jenova in them, usually), which is also very FF sounding. Heck, I could see this a mythology Sakaguchi would play with, even in Nomura wouldnt'.
I'm really not convinced that this is the case. There's no reason to suspect the original Bahamut's precise bundle of spirit energy has been wholesale reinserted into a new dragon body to live out multiple lives. Meanwhile, there's plenty of reason (i.e. FFIX's explanation on summon variations being due to cultural differences, as well as the fact different oral traditions describe Bahamut differently in VII's world) to believe different myths/folktales/collective memories of Bahamut in different forms allow different incarnations of the same historical figure to be summoned.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that Bahamut as a dragon king deity or whatever has been worshipped and revered so long that he's had multiple summon materia created throughout his ages of "life" as a titular deity.
First he was Bahamut. Then he was known as Neo Bahamut. Then Bahamut Zero. Then Bahamut Tremor. And then Bahamut Fury.
Each of these versions of Bahamut gained a materia because they were so prevalent and powerful. I think they all depict parts of Bahamut's life at stages of it's evolution. Just like Shiva in FFIX used to be a young girl snow fairy until she was then known as an ice queen. In Bahamut's case, materia was made at all his different stages, instead of there only being a Bahamut Fury materia.
Do they ever use other words for memories with other connotations? (I'd love to see a sort of list, that's a big ask though). It's interesting as computer memory files, to me, are a bit different. They're... downloadable, transferable and we have the weirdness with Hojo and Lucrecia in DoC and digital memory from them..... There's maybe some big implications here.
I'll make you the list (along with some other terms used to describe the different "parts" of the soul that get thrown around).
But in the meantime, you'll be interested in this keyword...
Synaptic Net Dive (SND)
『DC』
To project and submerge oneself in a sea of information (network). This is the special ability of one of the Tsivets, Shelke the Transparent. It enables the user to interface with a virtual environment while retaining their awareness, and is mainly used to acquire information from computer networks. It is also possible to submerge oneself in the mind and senses of another person and directly examine their memories or share information with them, but this also puts a considerable strain on the person with the ability.
BTW, "sea of information" is... very litteral here. There's not much else it can be translated to as "network" is it's own word in JP and is in parenthesis/quotes in the entry.
So... there's some type of ability in FFVII that is... essentially astral projection. And it can be used to interface with both a computer network and someone else's memories. We actually see Shelke use it to *overwrite* and *add* memories to someone else that they end up thinking are their own... even though that's really hard on the person to the point it can cause brain damage from overuse....
So yeah... "memory" is... a very, very flexible term/concept in FFVII...
I'm not exactly sure, but if enough people, cultures, etc believe and worship these variants of Bahamut over time, maybe those memories, feelings, beliefs, etc crystalize and sort of spurn the creation of these different Bahamuts. So the summon materia are like bookmarks of Bahamut's legacy as it evolves throughout time.
Your take would make sense if the Lifestream really does have the memories of everyone who has lived over time in it. So it would have all these memories of different kinds/forms of Bahamut all with different abilities.
It doesn't take too much work to go from that to "what if a chunk of those memories condensed into materia?"... only on more than one occasion.
I'll make you the list (along with some other terms used to describe the different "parts" of the soul that get thrown around).
But in the meantime, you'll be interested in this keyword...
Synaptic Net Dive (SND)
『DC』
To project and submerge oneself in a sea of information (network). This is the special ability of one of the Tsivets, Shelke the Transparent. It enables the user to interface with a virtual environment while retaining their awareness, and is mainly used to acquire information from computer networks. It is also possible to submerge oneself in the mind and senses of another person and directly examine their memories or share information with them, but this also puts a considerable strain on the person with the ability.
BTW, "sea of information" is... very litteral here. There's not much else it can be translated to as "network" is it's own word in JP and is in parenthesis/quotes in the entry.
So... there's some type of ability in FFVII that is... essentially astral projection. And it can be used to interface with both a computer network and someone else's memories. We actually see Shelke use it to *overwrite* and *add* memories to someone else that they end up thinking are their own... even though that's really hard on the person to the point it can cause brain damage from overuse....
So yeah... "memory" is... a very, very flexible term/concept in FFVII...
You're a hero. This is starting to make me think the internet-like network of FF7 is either based on the lifestream... Or interfaces with it if the ability crosses over like that. That's wildly cool.
@waw Here's a list of a bunch of the more... "metaphysical" side of the Lifestream and concepts that have to do with it. Twilight Mexican can yell at me if I get anything super wrong...
(Rough) Term List
命の循環 - "circulation of life"
very often used in FFVII to describe the process where life dies and returns to the Planet only to be born again afterward
命 - https://jisho.org/word/命
1. life; life force
2. lifetime; lifespan
3. most important thing; foundation; core
5. fate; destiny; karma (archaic, not often used)
精神エネルギー - "spiritual energy"
used to describe what the Lifestream contains/is made up of
this is what is "reborn" as new life later
also used to describe what part of a person gets overwhelmed when someone has a mako overdose/poisoning/addiction
also used to describe what is used up by mako reactors
エネルギー - https://jisho.org/word/エネルギー
1. energy (katakana)
2. energy; strength; power; stamina
3. energy source; energy resource
精神 - https://jisho.org/word/精神
1. mind; spirit; soul; heart; ethos
2. attitude; mentality; will; intention
3. spirit (of a matter); essence; fundamental significance
(yes, this term is *really* annoying to translate given all the different things it could be)
also used to describe what part of a person SND can look into and alter...
心 - https://jisho.org/word/心 and https://jisho.org/word/心-1
1. heart; mind; spirit; vitality; inner strength
2. bottom of one's heart; core (of one's character); nature
3. center; core; heart
(the other term that is really hard to translate the sense of what it is taking about across)
one of the components of life that is absorbed by the Lifestream after death
the (spiritual) part of a person that Jenova corrupts
意志 - https://jisho.org/word/意志
1. will; volition; intention; intent; determination
2. Will (philosophy)
the other component of life that is absorbed by the Lifestream after death
(yes, you can see that really tiny 心 in each of these kanji if you squint)
情報の海 - "sea of information"
what SND allows someone to interface with/manipulate
情報 - https://jisho.org/word/情報
1. information; news; intelligence; advice
2. information; data contained in characters, signals, code, etc.
used to describe the kind of information the Planet's "記憶" (memory) is
記憶 - https://jisho.org/word/記憶
1. memory; recollection; remembrance
2. storage
memories... both of people and the Planet itself
specifically said to be what is "condensed" in mako
sometimes used to mean "remembered" or "stored"
魔晄 - mako (setting specific term; has no meaning when combined in this way in JP)
often combined with other terms to get stuff like "mako energy", "mako reactor" and "mako poisoning"
sometimes "魔" is just by itself and still means "mako"
ストリーム - https://jisho.org/word/ストリーム
stream (katakana)
funnily enough, there *is* a computing term called a "stream" and is used to refer to a sequence of data elements made available over time (yes, this is why "streaming" is called "streaming")
In JP (as in English), it's the same word with (computing) on the back of it "ストリーム(プログラミング)"
知識 - https://jisho.org/word/知識
1. knowledge; information
what is remembered by the Planet and stored in materia
星 - https://jisho.org/word/星
star (usu. not including the Sun); planet (usu. not including Earth); heavenly body
word used for the Planet in FFVII
often linked to other nouns to show that they are "something of the Planet" or "the Planet's something"
Related concepts outside of FFVII of some of these terms
循環 - used in a lot of concepts that have to do with the circulatory system in the body
精神 - used in a lot of concepts that have to do with psychology and mental health
心 - used in a crazy amount of concepts that have anything to do with the mind, soul, emotions, physical heart, knowledge, attitude... you get the idea. Shows up in a lot of names for different emotional states. Often shows up as a part of the kanji of other related concepts.
意志 - used in concepts that have to do with strong/weak willpower and decision-making
情報 - used in a lot of concepts to do with the act of data processing and information science
記憶 - used in concepts to do with memory/information storage devices including the brain's ability to remember/store information along with all manner of computer memory storage devices and recording devices
知識 - used in concepts that have more to do with intellectual knowledge rather than the "information" itself
On the one hand, knowing this kind of stuff isn't *exactly* necessary because it's not directly brought up in the game. On the other hand, it's not the worst way to get a sense of what kinds of terms make use of similar (but different) concepts to figure out what English words would fit that concept the best as it's being used in context. It's also not a bad idea to get a sense of what JP speakers would tend to connect to various concepts even if they're not directly brought up.
There's probably more, but these are the ones that stick out to me and come up more than once or in significant descriptions about what is really going on with the Lifestream...
My understanding of Chadley's summons was that they were digital recreations of 'real' summons that were known to exist elsewhere.
Final Fantasy in general has usually been pretty hostile to religion, which is part of why the leads keep killing them or pointedly defying their will as the final boss. (Yu Yevon, Bhunivelze, Venat, Orphan, the FFXV Gods). I don't think they're going to change that now, as even remake leans that direction with the 'kill the time Gods' final boss.
Edit: That said, in the OG the church was the one place Aeris could hear the voice of the planet, so it's a bit odd that Ifalna distinguishes it from her abilities.
The trouble for FFVII is that the biggest "god" is the Planet itself... and killing that would kill all life on it including the cast. The goal of the OG was "saving the Planet".
Actually... that's not *quite* true. Sephiroth is trying to set himself up as a god and the Party kills him... what a lot of FF gods also are is "false" gods rather than "real" gods. Many of them are lying to their worshipers about who they are or what their motives are. Very few of them are honest about themselves.
Here's some of Obisidians' Kanji... it's by not mean an exhaustive breakdown, but I wanted to shed some light that might help some folks less-familiar with Japanese wrap their heads around these terms and why translations are used. For some I translate them a bit different than OF, this isn't because I have a better understanding, just a different approach. I come from a potentially different context, that's all. I do bow to OF's greater experience at this, OF, please jump in and make corrections (or anyone else for that matter).
This is a sort of stream of consciousness jumble that connects some of the Kanji and shows a relationship between some of these concepts. Please feel free to ask for more clarification.
Sea of Information:
So for folks who've paid attention to me before, I've referred to a "Noosphere," it's not a very common concept anymore, but in a bit older sci-fi, it was very common. Whether you're looking at philosophers like Tielhard de Chardin or Sci Fi writers like Julian May, it often is referred to as a "telepathic network," as in, if we're in the biological "sphere" of existence, there's also that mental plane from which Jungian archetypes, knowledge, dreams, thoughts... where all of that stuff is. I'd say many sci fi writers used that as a telepathic plane because that's how they could explain that stuff "scientifically."
I actualy found an interesting reference here that helps us wrap our mind around this:
For those that can't read Japanese, it's a total-non FF post about a Japanese sci-fi book in which people "jack" into a digital knowledge "ecosystem" not unlike in The Matrix. You could probably call the Matrix's thing a "noosphere" conceptually. Now, this passage doesn't use the phrase "
情報の海 [sea of information] but it's an interesting parallel. Actually, in modern Japanese, you'll find "情報の海" referring to that digital network/info superhighway of cell phones and internet that young folks are "plugged" into all the time. It's a bit more than just the internet though, it's also the information on it/in it. Calling what the SND/FF internet sort of thing is a "sea of information" is really interesting then, Japanese players would have a direct reference to what that is. However, I think the inclusion of "sea" here is a double entendre of sorts - the allusion to water plays very well in drawing a parallel to water (and therefore, the Lifestream). "情報の海" can also be any sort of flood of information, something you "drown" in when you're overwhelmed. (I'm reminded of the Well of Knowledge funny enough). Shelke being able to navigate this is probably a play on a young person being super computer/tech savy, it just has some nice allusions to it.
However, the general "knowledge/information" here does draw it's own parallel to the Lifestream, I think, which is also often "knowledge" in my opinion. If this were a work a few decades older than it is, I would completely expect the Lifestream to be rendered as "Noosphere."
I'm not saying this proves, in anyway, that Shinra's internet/SND or whatever is mirrored off the Lifestream (or piggybacking off it, why use highspeed cables when you can transmit signales anywhere on earth directly through Mako/lifestream to anywhere with a reactor?!) but it does make me think this is certainly possible, if not plausible.
---
So if we look at Sea of Information, the first two Kanji are "情報" - this is literally the information/knowledge part of the phrase. It's pretty common and nothing too special about it. Obsidian wrote:
It's a very technical/mechanical term for information, like something you would use in a computer lab. So what about the "memory" Kanji?
記憶 (kioku) is a very general sort of "memory," one that isn't fixed to time (like maybe short term memory), so it makes sense to use it for the Planet's. You can use it for a human's memory, but also for a computer's memory, although there are more specific words for memory, this is a pretty general one. I found another phrase, "思い出" which would be a sort of nostalgic/shorter term memory, just as a reference.
However, this set of kanji can added with some others for "記憶装置" which is a storage device, something electronic for computer memory. In this sense, Kioku is just a very general sort of memory. There's not too much special about it. You might notice the second kanji, "憶" has "shin/kokoro" at the bottom if you look closely. It's this character: "心" - Again, this isn't special, unique or odd. You'll find this is in a lot of Japanese Kanji. This kanji, "憶" can mean memory(ies) on it's own but is usually used for "to remember," or perhaps "to reflect on." Yeah, it can bounce around back in all of this and again, should be a consistent feeling of memory, maybe even "preserving knowledge/experience."
So, let's talk about Shin for a bit. This kanji shows up all over thte place "心" and, as Obsidian has pointed out, often means heart but maybe not the heart we're usually thinking. I think Licorice mention "essence" and it's probably a bit closer (though we might use "kaname" for that "要") So what is "心"? I'll share a way I've heard it before. "Someone must have the correct "kokoro" to understand." You must have the right... caliber, perhaps, and that's how I think of the word, personally. While it is heart, it's not the organ. It can also be "soul" but not necessarily as it's not this thing that like... leaves the body or some such. You don't see evil Mortal Kombat sorcerers shouting "Your shins are mine!" Er... Engrish?
In a Buddhist context, this "shin" is usually "mind," as in Mushin (no mind), Zanshin (aware mind), etc. It's a state of thought/being with higher levels expanding beyond just what you're thinking. This is incredible, and I would translate this as "mind" due to my study of Buddhism, but not all folks may get it by just seeing "Mind."
So it is some sort of mind/inner essence/quality/heart/thing. Obsidian added:
(the other term that is really hard to translate the sense of what it is taking about across)
one of the components of life that is absorbed by the Lifestream after death
the (spiritual) part of a person that Jenova corrupts
What's super interesting is this is the thing that the Lifestream absorbs and the thing that Jenova corrupts (and seemingly hasn't corrupted on Cloud). Shin/Kokoro here is this inner essence/core thing that if it gets corrupted, someone seems pretty lost, right? It's not an extreme idea! And if we translate it as Mind, well that makes perfect sense given Jenova!
穢れ "Kegare" is a pollution or defilement that taints Kami and people alike and must be washed away through Shinto rituals. You can get this by touching a dead body, for example, or touching someone/something tainted with Kegare. It's not a sin in a Christian sense, as it doesn't always come from violating some sort of taboo. If you watched Inuyasha, the gang were always talkinga about Naraku's "miasma," which is this sort of "kegare" concept in more fantastical presentation some of us may be familiar with.
A Shinto priest might write something like: 穢れとは心や魂に付いたものです。
Do you see Kegare there in the begining, and Kokoro a ways in? This is saying that the pollution might attach itself to one's Kokoro (we'd probably say Heart) and "魂" (tamashi). This second kanji (tamashi) is usually given as soul - which is absent from Obsidian's list.
What am I saying here? Well, "soul" seems to be absent from most of our conversations around the Lifestream. Apt that this isn't quite a thing, we're not saying the soul returns to the Lifestream. The "heart" does - one's feelings and knowledge and experience, caliber and quality, all of this. And this is the thing that can get defiled by Jenova. The Lifestream concept here isn't alluding to Shinto, it straight up is Shintoism. A Japanese player would have direct understanding of many of these ideas, I believe.
There's another kanji that can often can read as "shin" although alone, it's usually pronounced "Jin," this is: 神
We see this character in Shinto ("神道") with the second character being the Chinese "Dao," Path/road/way ("do" in Japanese). This Shin is "god", there's a famous yojijukugo, a sort of four character poem that is apt here:
神心神眼
This is "Shin Shin Shin Gan" - at least, that's how it's usually read. A bit funny, right? It's sort of "Divine Heart, Divine Eyes," Or Godly Heart, Godly Eyes. In religious traditions, it means if one has the heart/mind of god, they can see with god's eyes. It's used when speaking of to truly see something - or to see the Other World quite well.
We've talked about Kami in this thread. "神" Is also the word for Kami. (If you don't read Japanese at all, this is a funny thing about Kanji, the same character can read with different pronounciations but be the same thing!) In Shinto tradition, there's this thing called the "神界" or "Shinkai" that is the "World of the Kami." This spiritual plane of existence mirrors our own and it's where these beings mostly dwell. Kami are simply manifestations of the cosmic energy of the universe (musubi or 結び). (This word sort of means Union, but it's an interconnecting energy force in Shinto context, Union fits!) Probably read that again! We're talking about Eidolons/Summoned Beasts and what they are and how they manifest, this is very similar to Kami resulting form Musubi, is it not?
Which brings us to the Spiritual Energy, Obsidian gave us the Japanese characters "精神エネルギー". After the first two, it just reads a phonetic "Energy" (Enerugi) which isn't special, but let's take the kanji. This part "精神" can mean spirit. (Wait, we've heart, mind, soul, spirit?!) So what the heck is a spirit here?
Well, "精" is spiritual, otherworldy, in an Irish Gaelic context, it's all things Fae and Fairy. It's not necessarily magical, it's not quite divine, but it's spiritual. So both those qualities apply. But the second kanji on that, god, is super important. It makes the phrase "SeiShin," which is like... divine being. If I were to say "Namaste" to me, I'm saying the light in me bows to the light in you! This inner light? That's your "Seishin" which is a part of a cosmic Seishin... again, we're not far from FF7 mythos here!
See how Seishin is different from Kokoro? In Buddhism, the separation of these two concepts is perfectly fine as Seishin might be considered the cosmic energy that powers you and gives you life while the thing that is living/experiencing things/is a thing could be seen as Kokoro. Does this make sense?
And so once again, in a Lifestream context, we have a very clear parallel, moreso than I realized. Buuuut, there's one last one I want to put in this monster of a post... that is Mako.
Obsidian wrote:
魔晄 - mako (setting specific term; has no meaning when combined in this way in JP)
often combined with other terms to get stuff like "mako energy", "mako reactor" and "mako poisoning"
sometimes "魔" is just by itself and still means "mako"
Video games and manga often have made up kanji pairings that are nonsense in Japanese, you might know this one: 幻獣 Which is read as "Genju" and is the term for "Summoned Monster" - it literally means "Phantom Beast." It's a nonsensical, not situated historically sort of phrase made up and shared among modern fantasy creators, and it's used in Final Fantasy. Mako is no different, it's modern, made up, and has some weird connotations.
I passed this one to my teacher in Japan who was a bit wowed by it. See the kanji is made up of two characters:
魔 - while this can mean magical, it often means devil/bad spiritual connotations.
晄 - super obscure and one he didn't know right away. It means light, perhaps bright or radiance. It's just rare and the obscurity of it would stick out to a native Japanese player, who may have to look it up too.
Now that first one, you've seen it else where probably. Have you watched Dragon Ball? ピッコロ大だい魔ま王 The Great Demon King Piccolo! The kanji is pretty commonly used in these sorts of things, and oddly, I think Final Fantasy players might take it as demon/devil before reading it as just magic. But Mako here, literally, is "magic light" or "devil light." I think that's pretty nifty here, but what's interesting to me is the use of "light." And an obscure one at that!
One reference I found was a Buddhist name like "Sei Akira" - something a priest might take on. Akira being that Light, here being a sort of divine/pure light. It has a strange presence in the Japanese language, all at once conveying something obscure, but simple. 晄 alone is probably read as "Akira."
A Japanese reader might scratch their head until they were given a phonetic guide that Mako shouldn't be read as "Ma-Akira," though they'd probably expect the pronounciation to change. Maybe it's more familiar in some Manga circles these days for some obvious reasons, but it is an obscure kanji choice.
@waw
That is a beautiful post and I'm totally sending it off to the other guy I mess around with FFVII translation work with.
What's super interesting is this[ 心 ] is the thing that the Lifestream absorbs and the thing that Jenova corrupts (and seemingly hasn't corrupted on Cloud).
Everything in FFVII indicates Sephrioth/Jenova *did* corrupt Cloud's [心 ]. Or at the very least, make it much, much harder for the "real" Cloud to interact with the outside world. Northern Crater is just... gut-renching because that is when Cloud really "gives up" and admits he is what Sephiroth says he is... a fake person with fake memories Hojo created in a lab. And... goes and does whatever Sephiroth wants him to do. He has Sephiroth's [心 ] not his own.
Fortunetly, Tifa managed to help Cloud "un-corrupt" his [心 ] by helping Cloud work through what his *real* [心 ] is at Mideel. (In the Lifestream no less!) And after that, Sephiroth has a much, much harder time manipulating Cloud *at all*. Cloud knows who he is by the end of FFVII and nothing Sephiroth can do can change that.
@waw
That is a beautiful post and I'm totally sending it off to the other guy I mess around with FFVII translation work with.
Everything in FFVII indicates Sephrioth/Jenova *did* corrupt Cloud's [心 ]. Or at the very least, make it much, much harder for the "real" Cloud to interact with the outside world. Northern Crater is just... gut-renching because that is when Cloud really "gives up" and admits he is what Sephiroth says he is... a fake person with fake memories Hojo created in a lab. And... goes and does whatever Sephiroth wants him to do. He has Sephiroth's [心 ] not his own.
Fortunetly, Tifa managed to help Cloud "un-corrupt" his [心 ] by helping Cloud work through what his *real* [心 ] is at Mideel. (In the Lifestream no less!) And after that, Sephiroth has a much, much harder time manipulating Cloud *at all*. Cloud knows who he is by the end of FFVII and nothing Sephiroth can do can change that.
I'm really glad I could give something of interest (and hopefully) help. I'll try to go over the rest of the list and see if I can find anything else helpful later tonight.
And yeah, I suppose I wasn't careful enough in my description of Cloud's [心 ]. Certainly by the end of AC, he seems to have a pretty purified nature cannot be touched by Sephiroth. It's no accident Tifa does this in the Lifestream/Mideel waters, and that Aerith's rain does it. Both of these things are very Shinto.
Question: For Remake enthusiasts, Shiva is said to have frozen part of the world that was wounded, right? Do we know for sure this was the Northern Crater/Continent? This has been my assumption but I'm not sure if that was clear...
Additionally, what word describes summons in the Japanese context? I don't think they're ever called Eidolons or Aeons in English, just what, summons/Summoned Beasts? This might help us get somewhere deeper on this issue too.
An ice-elemental entity and ruler over the world of ice. It is said that she once saved the planet from certain destruction by staunching a great wound with a glacier.
Well, there's only been one time in the Planet's history where it suffered a grievous wound that needed to be staunched with ice from a glacier. It can only be the Northern Crater.
Additionally, what word describes summons in the Japanese context? I don't think they're ever called Eidolons or Aeons in English, just what, summons/Summoned Beasts? This might help us get somewhere deeper on this issue too.
Video games and manga often have made up kanji pairings that are nonsense in Japanese, you might know this one: 幻獣 Which is read as "Genju" and is the term for "Summoned Monster" - it literally means "Phantom Beast."
While I don't trust the Final Fantasy Wiki when it comes to *lore*... It *is* a very good source for looking up the JP equivalent for most Final Fantasy names and terms.
The skill itself in FFVII is [しょうかん]... katakana for "Summon". The names of the summons follow the same pattern of being katakana as well.
The one exception is the Bahamut Variants which are Bahamut's katakana name [バハムート] followed by a variety of kanji. NEO is [改] (revision). ZERO is [零式] (Model Zero; found as part of various military airplane model numbers). SIN is [震] (quake). FURY is [烈] (violence; furious).
Well, there's only been one time in the Planet's history where it suffered a grievous wound that needed to be staunched with ice from a glacier. It can only be the Northern Crater.
Well, I feel a bit better saying it then, I didn't want presuppose a fan understanding and perpetuate it as canon if it wasn't at least in agreement to be the case.
I went back to the cut scene where Sephiroth explained summons to the party. Aerith says
"召喚のマテリア " This is Summon Materia, what's interesting here is the notes I have she used Kanji rather than the katakana.
This: 召喚 is kanji for しょうかん (read as Shokan, meaning Summon).
Why is this at all important? Chikata Fujiwara and his four devils (whom I spoke of in this thread?) That's the kanji used when describing how he brought four the Devils in some of the stuff I've read. I think it's a bit more modern word, but it's precedented in Japanese mythology in a way a Japanese reader may very well understand easily.
Chikata Fujiwara is a semi-mythical figure (though he does show up in some historical lineage charts) from the Kumano region. Kumano here is a bit notable as there's a lot of ninjutsu connections in later centuries. Tihs guy was bopping around in the 600s, still very much a period of myths in Japan. In his rebellion against the emperor, he summoned four demons (one Golden, one of the Wind, a Water, and a "hidden" demon). I've read some conflicting accounts, I believe he had to slay the four demons and then used them. One demon's head (or an enemies head) was dropped in his magic well and turned into magic stones. One such stone is in a shrine today and rubbed for good (rain) weather by folks visiting.
Conversly, there is another group of 4 from a few centuries later called the "Shitenno." (Four Heavenly Kings). While it shows up in Buddhism as four divine dudes, these are four legendary warriors that supported the hero Raiko. I have a painting I can share about them slaying a spider (an allegory for the "barbarian" clans). Why am I mentioning this? The kanji for Shitenno is... if you're eagle eyed, the same for the "Four Fiends." 四天王 More general Final Fantasy, all of this is just to say:
Yeah, "summon" here has precendence in Japanese mythology, maybe more so than I connected before digging into lore. Those devils are a sort of kami, even if a lesser/maybe corrupted? one. It, perhaps, strengthens a potential religious connotation with the Summons, but it's strikingly different than calling them something like Eidolons in Japanese.
EDIT: See TTM's post below, Shitenno is only used in FFIV with other terms for the other sets of Four Fiends used.
Conversly, there is another group of 4 from a few centuries later called the "Shitenno." (Four Heavenly Kings). While it shows up in Buddhism as four divine dudes, these are four legendary warriors that supported the hero Raiko. I have a painting I can share about them slaying a spider (an allegory for the "barbarian" clans). Why am I mentioning this? The kanji for Shitenno is... if you're eagle eyed, the same for the "Four Fiends." 四天王 More general Final Fantasy ...
Apparently that was only used for the four Archfiends in FFIV, but not the original FF's 4 Chaoses or FFIX's shrine guardians. That said, the other group of 4 could have been intended as a reference to Fujiwara's demons.
FF1 四つのカオス
FF4 四天王 (translated as Archfiends, which is a bit interesting)
FF9 テラの守護者 (Guardians of Terra)
For anyone who doesn't know, 4 is a very bad number in Japanese. This: 四 is 4, and it's pronounced "shi" which is the same sound for "death." So instead, 四 is often read as "yon." 4 is very bad luck because of this. The Shitenno of Buddhism originated in India, not Japan, and it gave way to Raiko's four generals, but very rarely is anything numbered 4 good in Japanese - so the 4 Fiends in any form is a recurirng concept. I guess a lot of this doesn't apply to FF7, I can get into some of numerology another day.
I'm working on some of those other Kanji. A couple things stand out, it probably won't be as robust as the last kanji post.
Continuing a bit of work on some of the Kanji Obsidian provided that surrounds the Japanese Lifestream. I'm actually not sure who reads some of these threads, you all may have Japanese down and then I'm sort of just doing for myself. That's okay, I'm getting something out of it!
If any of you are part of the Dark Souls fan community, a great portion of them came together, similar to you all, studying the language in Japanese, finding that used Tolkien's Elvish and a bunch of other oddities. The language used was really worthwhile. There was an FF site called FF Compendium from some years back (I think it's mostly just preserved these days) but it was a neat place I used to spend my time perusing and enjoying their etymology studies and tracking, trying to pick out some common things in the games. I'm not sure they got past FFX, or any of the sequels. I know it ended at some point, but it was cool while it lasted. I haven't really dug into the Japanese of FF7 at all, and this is a really fascinating journey for me. Mostly it reinforces thoughts and ideas I've had (rather then shed new illumination) but it also been impressive to see just how well studied these creators are. There are some deep, deep cuts here, imo, along some crazy lines.
I talked about "ma" before, the first part of "MaKo," and how it's often devil or magical. The kanji was: 魔晄. I wanted to return to this as a sort of starting point becasue looking at this, I can't help but catch a sinister nature in the word. My FF7 understanding is that Shinra (or someone essentially working for them) coined this word - it's not a word the Cetra would use. I think there's probably a line here we could draw from Cetra based words which would be more positive around the Lifestream and this sinister word stemming from Shinra.
In some ways, you wouldn't want to say you're sucking up the souls of the passed in order to power your cities. People would hate that. *cough* So depicting this as a neutral or even bad thing would play well - and since Ma has a double meaning of not just demonic/devilish but also magical, it works really well. So I dug into some other magic words for FF stuff:
The Job Class "Black Mage" is [くろまじゅつし] whic is "Kuro Ma Jutsushi." Thhis is literally "black/dark Majutsu Shi/Person." This "shi" is really common in the job classes, outside of this, you may find "Bushi" in Japanese. This is 武士, which means warrior genlteman of sorts, we might think knight, but this typically referred to Samurai. The first kanji is bu, just warrior. The second, "shi" is 士 and this is a special function in Japan. It often is translated as "gentleman" but it has an older meaning. In Confucian China, there were four classes in their social hierarchy with "shi" being the top. These were folks who passed Confucian examinations and earned a higher class position. They were both scholars and warriors/commanders typically. When Confucianism came to Japan, the "shi" concept carried over and mixed with their aristocratic set up. As a result, "shi" carries this sort of connotation: a person of high caliber, noble, skillful, etc. This isn't the special part of a black mage though! It's "majutsu." Justsu is just "art," like "jujutsu," or "bujutsu," (martial art stuff). It's the art of "ma" but this isn't a kanji reading, Ma doesn't have a kanji! So is it the same one?!
It is, actually. "Black Magic" is [ 黒魔法 ] Which is "Kuro Maho" which means Black Magic. Catch that? Maho? Mako wouldn't be that weird of a word to an FF player, let alone a Japanese gamer/comics enthusiast. It seems this kanji shows up a lot in these situations (which is where the magic connotation comes from. Let me talk about that for a moment actually....) See, there's different kinds of magic in Japanese culture, or what we'd call magic, and it's not all infernal or "dark arts" sort of stuff. This "ma" certainly implies it from my experience. Not necessarily forbidden, but we could say this sort of magician would probably be burned at the stake for being a witch if this was medieval Europe!
魔晄 (Mako - Magic Light)
魔法 (Magic)
See the similarity? The emphasis here is just digging out that "ma" part and it's sinister connotations. Sinister might be a bit of an oversell, but whatever term you use for this, the Japanese would probably not think of it as divine. It comes from the other way.
FFVI's Magicite is [魔石 ] - literally magic stone. Final Fantasy very rarely has made their magic "holy" or of a divine origins up to this point. As it has been pointed out in this thread, Square very rarely looks at religion and faith in a very positive light with a lot of charlatans and dark deities it seems. So magic is no problem for them to use (let alone, how the stuff was translated from Dungeons and Dragons, which I assume really shaped their early terminology).
So where's all this Ma stuff going? Going back to Obsidian's list, let's look at what I would argue are more Cetra-originating terms:
命の循環 - "circulation of life"
命 -. life; life force
循環 - circulation; rotation; cycle; loop
精神 - spiritual/divine/godly.
Now this last set, Seishin, strikes me as what the Cetra might call "Mako" if we have a contrary word. Look at the divinity of it (I broke it down above). And from my personal experiences, this is often described or explained as an inner light or divine light. I have a paining I will share another time when I can that illustrates this light. (Just not at home to grab it!)
A prayer in Japanese is: 詞韻 波羅密 大光明
It's read as "Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo" A lot doesn't have anything to do with what we're looking at, it's a bit about guidance from divinity, specifically a divine light. The last kanji has our interest. "大光明" is literally "big bright glow" or something along those lines. It's referring to this light. This is Seishin - 精神 which is really curious that this isn't the term FF7 used for Mako and instead made up a term meaning "magic light" essentialy. But that difference is super fascinating. They might have rendered this as:
精光 - Sei Kou
魔光 - Ma Kou
Seikou would be more "divine light" while "makou" would imply a sort of... infernal/occult light. Not necessarily evil, but certainly not divine. Divinity and Nature are often interchangeable in Shinto, so this is a serious departure in concept. Now, I used that "kou" kanji, which is read as "Hikari" when alone. It just means light, even in a metaphysical sense, and is far more common than their obscure choice. So it could also be:
精晄 - looks like it should be "Seiko" and mean divine light, but this actually means something more like "fine."
魔晄 - what they used.
Now, Mako, the kanji they did use, when read in Chinese (I checked with a friend) is unmistakably magic, and not even that obscure. (Japanese and Chinese share their characters, usually with the same, or at least similar, meaning.)
Mako is a very deliberate choice and doesn't imply any sort of divinity, but other words used in the script does.
So returning back to this bunch:
命の循環 - "circulation of life"
命 -. life; life force
循環 - circulation; rotation; cycle; loop
精神 - spiritual/divine/godly.
We've discussed Life/Fate/Life Force, and we've discussed the divine/spirituality a lot, but what about this "circulation of life?" Does that have an implication? Well, as Obisidan pointed out, it's any sort of "circle of life" phrase you might use, like things dying, decaying, fertilizing, growing as trees, being eaten, and passed on up. It's not inherently mystical, it'd be a very common phrase. Unless we're steeped in Buddhism. Then it tends to refer to the Wheel of Dharma. This might get a bit deep here...
You've seen this perhaps:
This is a wheel with 8 spokes (the 8 fold path) that contains things like "right thought" and "right speech." Now, these aren't necessarily like... right or wrong actions, but there's a specific rightness, and it's not necessarily scripture based. (Meaning, it's not something listed in the Ten Commandments or something as clear as that, but there are right things and wrong things, and the right things help... spin... the wheel). So when the wheel spins (as the next thing follows the next), this generates the cycle of life and allows this to continue to live, die, decay, and feed the next. This is directly related to reincarnation, being born again as the next entity, growing, changing, etc. So the phrase isn't just a sort of modern/scientific "cycle of life," although it is often used that way.
Curiously, it's a great phrase for Cetra to use where it's almost matter-of-fact science, reverence, and mysticism all at once. But it's not magic.
Looking at these terms a bit deeper, I'm reminded of some development material yet again, which included thoughts that the Cetra had unlocked a piece of their brain (Jenova) to use magic, and most people "today" couldn't. Those with powers/gifts were "thaumaturges" or something like this, (literally miracle worker). My understanding is that someone like Reeve, who was an "Inspire" and could bring a Doll to life would have been one of these folks, which would be rumored to be descendents of the Cetra. As an aside, I think some of this is reused by Nomura for FFX (Lulu and Lulu's dolls) and FFXIII to an extent). Now, the kanji for this Thaumature just meant sorcerer I think (I don't have the Japanese handy right now) but I believe it was: 呪術士 or Ju-jutsu-shi. That "ju" usually means curse, as in "that witch cursed me, turned me into a newt." Which wasn't very divine, like Thaumaturge implies in English. Does anyone have this kanji by chance?
Regardless, I bring this up because I'm trying to think through the development of some of these ideas and how they came together. I do believe the Cetra are meant to be very divine/spiritual/nature, where as Shinra looked at magic and the Lifestream with a very different viewpoint, and I think it's embedded in the language. We certainly have this vibe in English, the Cetra obviously revere the Lifestream/Planet while the Shinra just use it and don't care. I guess, where the unique departure here, then, is that the Shinra's view of magic is probably consistent among earlier expressions of magic. The word "mako" implies this, while the Cetra had a more revered look for this and interpreted as divine. And I think this carries thorugh with destructive nature of SOLDIERs and the holy vibe we have around Cetra. But let's not forget... Cetra had Meteor for Gilgamesh's sake!!!
Oh, there's one last one I wanted to look at before I put this to rest:
意志 - https://jisho.org/word/意志
1. will; volition; intention; intent; determination
2. Will (philosophy)
the other component of life that is absorbed by the Lifestream after death
(yes, you can see that really tiny 心 in each of these kanji if you squint)
心 - https://jisho.org/word/心 and https://jisho.org/word/心-1
1. heart; mind; spirit; vitality; inner strength
2. bottom of one's heart; core (of one's character); nature
3. center; core; heart
(the other term that is really hard to translate the sense of what it is taking about across)
one of the components of life that is absorbed by the Lifestream after death
the (spiritual) part of a person that Jenova corrupts
So we have so far two components of life that are absorbed into the Lifestream, one being the [心] which is Jenova-corruptable and this is the Mind/Consciousness/Heart of a person. The other is this "will." [意志] So we need to figure out what this thing means in a Japanese context.
Firstly, the word is made up of these two kanji, both meaning "will" on their own. It's read as "ishi" usually. Will, volition, all of this makes sense. Determination is a good one. In a Buddhist sense, we'd read it as, perhaps, "intention." This is... like... what one intends to do, while the other, [心] is what one is at their core.
Scorpion and the Frog? The Scoprion intends to ride the Frog across the river, it intends to. But it stings the frog and kills them both because that's it's [心]. Do you understand?
[意志] this doesn't necessarily come to pass. That's pretty unique here, to me. And it's unique that this is something that Lifestream absorbs. I can see memories and experiences, the sum of some person, being [心] and why both Jenova would corrupt this and the Planet would retain this. But the other, Ishi, [意志] is quite peculiar. It would seem Zack, and later Cloud, have strong ishi/will, and that's how they resist Sephiroth. Cloud is quite determined at times, isn't he?
Now, you might see this in a religious context in Japanese: 神的意志 This should look a bit familiar. We see Divine/God in there, and we see this "will" at the end. This is, literally, "Divine Will" or the "Will of God." It could also be a cosmic will/will of the universe. (Remember here, everytime I've used "god," it's not necessarily the Big Guy Upstaris, yeah?) Which raises this next question and the thought I will leave you all with.
We don't necessarily see the Planet having sentience. It's almost like an animal - it wants to escape danger, protect itself, live, thrive, etc. People are sentient. People have will. So why does the Planet absorb this thing? Maybe, and I'm stretching her admittedly, the Will of the Planet is the Sum of the Will of the People it absorbs - all those things that die, their Will could go into it to direct it. I'm not sure here, but again, this will is devoid of divine/god, which is really, interesting to me.
All right, I think I'm spent on this for now. If anyone wants a piece clarified, or disagrees, please share.
We've discussed Life/Fate/Life Force, and we've discussed the divine/spirituality a lot, but what about this "circulation of life?" Does that have an implication? Well, as Obisidan pointed out, it's any sort of "circle of life" phrase you might use, like things dying, decaying, fertilizing, growing as trees, being eaten, and passed on up. It's not inherently mystical, it'd be a very common phrase.
You absolutly could translate [命の循環] as "cycle of life". Reason why I didn't was two reasons. The first is that "cycle of life" sounds like it's describing what you are describing there... which isn't quite what is being described with the Lifestream. The second is that the Lifestream is compared to blood circulating around a body in some places of FFVII and "circulation" fit the metaphor very well while keeping the "looping back to the start of it". And I'm a sucker for enforcing metaphors canon uses if I can...
My understanding is that someone like Reeve, who was an "Inspire" and could bring a Doll to life would have been one of these folks, which would be rumored to be descendents of the Cetra.
I'm almost certain that Shelke with her SND ability would be one as well. Being able to look into a "sea of information" sounds like something the Cetra would be doing on the regular...
Your analysis is fascinating and has a lot of interesting observations in it. Thank you for sharing!
