I wanted to toss together a quick thread of references that I noticed while playing through the Remake, so that there's a place to sort of theorycraft, and also get some more eyes on connections and things that I noticed.
First off, H0512 & H0512-OPT are some pretty interesting entities. These are now clearly meant to be connected with Jenova, especially given the appearance of the skull. It has a lot of other strange appendages and other Lovecraftian things about its appearance.
Most interestingly, though sadly absent from the Enemy Intel, are the alternate forms of the little mobs that appear as the battle progresses:
H0512-OPT – They have weird slitted pupils and they know a Fire & and Ice Spell. This is likely their base state as whatever weird Jenova-experiments they're meant to be.
H0512-OPTα – H0512 pulls in Mako from a tank until its whole body glows from the inside with mako energy. Then these come popping out of its Left Arm's shoulder, and now that they're fully mako-infused they get SOLDIER-colored eyes. After this, their only attack is a physical attack where they go spinning on their heads with their four bladed claws extended like swords.
H0512-OPTß – The remaining H0512-OPTα with their SOLDIER-eyes are roaming about in the open and get additionally showered with Mako sprayed from H0512's Left Arm. Now their eyes have a strange glow like Genesis' do, and their attack changes to be a self destruct called "Apoptosis" – which is the cellular death that's causes the degradation that G-Copies suffer from in Crisis Core – and is potentially a risk that all SOLDIER have now, since we learn that Sephiroth-Copy #2 from the Sector 5 slums used to be in SOLDIER.
This is some spectacular visual storytelling through combat, but there's something exceptionally odd about some enemies that we're used to seeing connected to SOLDIER, Mako, & Jenova in Remake: The Makonoids as we've always known them aren't around anymore whatsoever, despite the familiar pods being used.
Instead we've got new beings, which are the Unknown Entities & Failed Experiments, as well as Behemoth Type-0, and all of these have their eyes completely covered over, which obscures the key reference point to their origin. Most notably, the Failed Experiment has a singular eye in the center of its face. These entities are all contained within the secret labs underneath the slums, but also en mass within The Drum – located in Sector 0, which is also classically the location of Mako Reactor 0 & Deepground – which is considered a failed experiment. The Deepground SOLDIERs all have their faces obscured, and have a singular eye emerging from the center of their faces, matching what we see here.
The Unknown Entities have a single back tendril, much like the single wing that we saw in Crisis Core's Jenova-experiments, and it's on the same side as the Genesis Copies. The Failed Experiment has multiple tendrils, much more like the new form of Jenova Dreamweaver. They also have this super strange bioluminescence to them that's wholly unlike anything else before. H0512 only glows when it's absorbed Mako from the tank, and even then, it glows the exact same color as the Mako.
The exception to the internal glowing however, is the Whisper Entities. They also have very busy designs with externally chitinous-looking outer bodies, similar to how it looks like these new experiments have some sort of an outer shell to them. What's also interesting about the 4 Whisper Entities is their hierarchy of Harbinger linked to, but existing over three is exactly that of Sephiroth & the three Remnants in Advent Children. Rubrum, Viridi, & Croceo even bear the same weaponry types as Kadaj, Loz, & Yazoo. It also helps to look at the elemental nature of the three Whisper Entities:
Additionally, when threatened, these three Whisper entities also fuse to create Whisper Bahamut much like how Kadaj summons Bahamut SIN. Also, everything that the Remnants do has always been formed from some unspecified black misty energy, which matches the appearance of the Whispers throughout the game.
However, that's not all. If you look at all four of the Whisper Entities' waists, you'll see a familiar shape right at their hips: These are the strange claws that can be seen emerging at the wing thumb joints on the Genesis Copies in Crisis Core. Additionally, when the Genesis Copies absorbed some of Zack's hair (who also just so happened to possibly maybe survive in some capacity), they transformed into the G-Eliminators, which had much thinner wing-like arms similar to these tendrils, and also had a blue & red color scheme like these new experiments, and a more aquatic looking appearance, which I would say matches these new entities as well.
Furthermore, the G-Eliminators have little segmented pieces on their wings, which is something that we also see in Advent Children's Bahamut SIN. Bahamut SIN also has four points from its back that fuse into two wings, which is like what we see with the Failed Experiment's back tendrils. The G-Eliminator as well as Bahamut SIN & the Shadow Creepers in Advent Children also have weird exoskeletal structures covering over their faces, which matches the look of these new experiments. Whatever these entities are, they're likely meant to be some sort of representation of the Mako exposure and Jenova in a new way that has echoes to what we're familiar with.
Lastly, that brings me to the final new element at play – Roche. He's a new SOLDIER who's obsessed with motorcycles, unhinged behaviour, and has an obsession with Cloud – all things that match what we see in the behaviour of the Remnants in Advent Children. His physical appearance is like a fusion of Yazoo & Loz, and he's got that same maniacal laugh that Yazoo's got, and also makes sound effects like "vroom vroom" when he drives, the way that Loz does for gunfire during the highway chase.
Then there's the "Sephiroth" who's cradling Jenova's headless body, who then transforms from Sephiroth into the #2 cloaked figure, and then falls off the top of the Shinra HQ – the exact opposite of what happens in Advent Children, where Kadaj fights Cloud at the top of the Shinra HQ, falls, and then transforms into Sephiroth after falling while cradling just her head.
I suspect that all of those things means that Roche's going to be a factor of some kind here, since we know that S & G Cells are mentioned, and they're clearly establishing a connection there to the new experiments. Having some brand new SOLDIER entity added to the Remake who links to the Remnants this closely makes it seem like Roche's the primary vector to start to interlink all of those experiments and pieces together in whatever format the Remake is doing for Hojo's projects. Ultimately that will tie all of these things together in a way that links up to Sephiroth, so that Sephiroth's connection to these Whisper entities manipulating fate can be linked into the game's mad science, and Sephiroth's motivations and manifestations throughout the whole of the Remake.
Those are all of the design and reference dots that I've managed to connect so far. Wondering if anybody else had noticed some, or had more thoughts.
I don't think the Makonoids are being replaced by the Unknown Entities.
The makonoid is iconic, and was even used as enemies in Crisis Core, so I'm sure we'll see those Makonoids again in their appropriate context, which is the Nibelheim Flashback. After all, the Remake has made it a point to leave no enemy behind.
The Makonoid is simply the next stage a human being mutates into with continued exposure to Mako.
However, given that the Unknown Entities and Type-0 Behemoth have file names that list them as "Deepground" (and given the carry over of 99% of the information and data from the information leaked before), and their inhabited location is a place that is strongly hinted at being an offshoot of Deepground itself, I'd hazard a guess that these entities are the result of continued cellular degradation from receiving cells belonging to Genesis. Coupled with further experimentation, of course.
The appendages on these entities' backs, which you point out, look like degenerated wing structures. I honestly think what we see in that research facility are the remaining Genesis Copies that were rounded up by Shinra, given to Hojo and summarily tossed into Deepground as fodder/waste. Their appearance does bring to mind the Genesis Copies at the later stage of their degradation and mutation.
I dont' have much to add regarding the 3 enigmatic Whispers, however. Some have theorized that they could be connected to Cloud, Tifa and Barret but I've never really bought that connection due to the fact their similarities are so minimal. Whisper Rubrum uses a sword, but he's left handed. Viridi's fists look more like crab clows or something. And Corceo uses two guns in each hand, unlike Barret. Maybe they are meant to reference Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, but then I'd have to wonder why they would be representations of the Planet, trying to protect their future?
As for Bahamut Sin, I don't really think there's much connection to him here honestly I think he's just the weirdest looking Bahamut out of the bunch
I remembered the Deepground connection right after I finished posting, so I updated it accordingly, and split up the post to get access to more media embedding. (This is why I'm hoping that Shad finishes his playthrough soon, since I rely on his for all the DG information).
Also, if the main Whisper Harbinger entity is eventually being controlled by Sephiroth in Remake's story in his attempt to "never be just a memory" like his does in Advent Children – then its three avatars Rubrum, Viridi, & Croceo would be secondary manifestations of Sephiroth in the way that the Remnants are, with the ability to call on a tainted version of Bahamut as well. After all, if the Remake is actually covering everything, we're expecting that would also involve recreating a new version of AC's events in some form, which means establishing those three entities from the get-go, so that they can call them into play later on. I think that having them seem like analogous entities to Cloud, Tifa, & Barret is the obvious and intentional misdirection.
I remembered the Deepground connection right after I finished posting, so I updated it accordingly, and split up the post to get access to more media embedding. (This is why I'm hoping that Shad finishes his playthrough soon, since I rely on his for all the DG information).
Also, if the main Whisper Harbinger entity is eventually being controlled by Sephiroth in Remake's story in his attempt to "never be just a memory" like his does in Advent Children – then its three avatars Rubrum, Viridi, & Croceo would be secondary manifestations of Sephiroth in the way that the Remnants are, with the ability to call on a tainted version of Bahamut as well. After all, if the Remake is actually covering everything, we're expecting that would also involve recreating a new version of AC's events in some form, which means establishing those three entities from the get-go, so that they can call them into play later on. I think that having them seem like analogous entities to Cloud, Tifa, & Barret is the obvious and intentional misdirection.
Whisper Harbinger only gets absorbed and taken over by Sephiroth after the heroes summarily beat the snot out of it multiple times, leaving it weakened and vulnerable.
Before the fight takes place, Aerith explains that the Whispers represent the intentions and will of the planet and Sephiroth, despite his words, cares nothing for the planet as its pleas and desires roll off his back like rain. The Whispers also collectively scream upon hearing Sephiroth's intentions on the highway. So I don't think at the start of the final battle where the heroes are fighting the Whispers, that they're agents of Sephiroth. I think Cloud and the others unwittingly allowed Sephiroth to make them his agents, as it's thanks to absorbing their powers Sephiroth increases in strength and even declares himself "fate."
I can see the thematic connection to the remnants of Sephiroth however and I admit I did get a chuckle as I saw Cloud and the others do battle with another Bahamut, in a city adjacent to Midgar But I don't know if we can claim those Whispers are actually legit in-story connections to those Remnants in AC. They clearly are meant to be agents of the planet in some form or fashion. Why they take on those appearances is.. Anyone's guess at this point.
One thing I also want to add regarding Deepground and the Underground Research Facility.
The original purpose of Dirge of Cerberus was to be a shooting game of some sort. Kitase explained they thought of numerous characters to be the star for it, starting with FFX-2 Yuna, and even considering Barret. But they ultimately went with Vincent.
Also, the enemies you find in the Underground Research Facility.... Aside from the Unknown Entities, are Crimson Hounds and Bizarre Bugs.
Which, in Dirge of Cerberus, are two of the most abundant enemies you fight in that game aside from DG Soldiers themselves.
A chapter filled with Crimson Hounds.. And Bizzare Bugs.. in an underground Shinra research laboratory facility that had Barret Wallace as the main playable character, utilizing his gun arm to fight. I wonder what the writers were thinking with this chapter?
Whisper Harbinger only gets absorbed and taken over by Sephiroth after the heroes summarily beat the snot out of it multiple times, leaving it weakened and vulnerable.
Before the fight takes place, Aerith explains that the Whispers represent the intentions and will of the planet and Sephiroth, despite his words, cares nothing for the planet as its pleas and desires roll off his back like rain. The Whispers also collectively scream upon hearing Sephiroth's intentions on the highway. So I don't think at the start of the final battle where the heroes are fighting the Whispers, that they're agents of Sephiroth. I think Cloud and the others unwittingly allowed Sephiroth to make them his agents, as it's thanks to absorbing their powers Sephiroth increases in strength and even declares himself "fate."
I can see the thematic connection to the remnants of Sephiroth however and I admit I did get a chuckle as I saw Cloud and the others do battle with another Bahamut, in a city adjacent to Midgar But I don't know if we can claim those Whispers are actually legit in-story connections to those Remnants in AC. They clearly are meant to be agents of the planet in some form or fashion. Why they take on those appearances is.. Anyone's guess at this point.
Oh, I totally agree with you. Sephiroth doesn't take it over Whisper Harbinger until afterwards, and as we know, Sephiroth's Remnants in the form of Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz don't appear in the FFVII storyline for a long while yet.
I was just pointing out that the design reason for these three's appearances looking the way that they do is to misdirect with the Cloud, Tifa, Barret connection, while establishing these three entities now exist connected to Sephiroth, in order to be able to give Sephiroth a way of manifesting Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz from these Whisper entities at some point later on within Remake's storyline.
One thing I also want to add regarding Deepground and the Underground Research Facility.
The original purpose of Dirge of Cerberus was to be a shooting game of some sort. Kitase explained they thought of numerous characters to be the star for it, starting with FFX-2 Yuna, and even considering Barret. But they ultimately went with Vincent.
Also, the enemies you find in the Underground Research Facility.... Aside from the Unknown Entities, are Crimson Hounds and Bizarre Bugs.
Which, in Dirge of Cerberus, are two of the most abundant enemies you fight in that game aside from DG Soldiers themselves.
A chapter filled with Crimson Hounds.. And Bizzare Bugs.. in an underground Shinra research laboratory facility that had Barret Wallace as the main playable character, utilizing his gun arm to fight. I wonder what the writers were thinking with this chapter?
Oh man, I totally forgot about them as the common enemies. I haven't played Dirge in AGES, so I'm glad you & other folks can help me remember stuff like that. I also think that it's thematically appropriate that we start things out with Barret in that chapter then, and that we get to see more stuff later on in the Drum in Sector 0.
Looking back on it now, I wonder if these entites being shown so prominently in Midgar during this game in order to help clearly differentiate the look of them from the more classic Makonoids in Nibelheim later on. If they did, that would be a way to give all the players enough exposure to the enemies to help clearly distinguish the experiments of the failed "Project G" in Midgar from the differently failed "Project S" in Nibelheim – even though both are connected to SOLDIER and Jenova.
So, as we enter Chapter 3, we get one of Cloud's flashbacks and then see the Whispers emerging and moving away and into Sector 7 Slums. What's interesting is that the guy calls Cloud a "mako junkie" which means that this sort of behaviour isn't entirely unknown, or just Cloud's messed up head.
It's potentially pointing to something that's a side-effect of being a former SOLDIER (which people recognize in Cloud's eyes immediately, and we've also seen in the H0512-OPTα). We've seen a side effect in Crisis Core as mental/physical degradation that they can experience over time. What seems to cement this even further in Remake is the SOLDIER who we do see suffering from being rather mentally unhinged is Roche – who's nickname is "Speed Junkie" in Japanese rather than "Speed Demon" in English. His attitude and everything make even more sense when we hear Elmyra's commentary to Cloud that the members of SOLDIER traded in a normal life for power, and she doesn't want Cloud near Aerith. I can only assume that her knowledge and overall demeanor towards Cloud comes as a result of Aerith's experiences with Zack.
Back at the Chapter 3 moment, the Whispers are assumedly headed for the apartment next to Cloud's, where we have the first encounter with a Sephiroth Clone, Marco (#49). This encounter is where Cloud gets a glimpse of the Whirlwind Maze, and we hear the word "Reunion" for the first time. It's also the point where the thematic connection to the Whispers appearing as Cloaked Figures seems to have a connection, especially since they bear a much closer resemblance to the Cloaked Figures in the original Game, now that our actual experiment victims are more detailed.
Later on during Chapter 8, we learn from the kids that our "This Guy Are Sick" Sephiroth Clone (#2 )is a former member of SOLDIER, which helps to cement this connection to their clear mental degradation.
This also the individual who Sephiroth puppets into the Shinra HQ disguised as himself, and excises Jenova from the Drum before Kadaj-ing himself off of the roof with her body.
While the standard Whispers take the Cloaked Sephiroth Clone-like forms of the Mysterious & Enigmatic Spectres who classically have a connection to Sephiroth, the Whisper Bosses all have extremely sharp and plated exoskeletal forms, and clawed hands that are like the clawed hands on the Unknown Entities & Failed Experiments. This seems to make them closer to the experimental entities that have a connection to Genesis.
At the end of Crisis Core, Genesis merges himself into an avatar of the Planet, and is in essence connecting his body with the Will of the Planet. I think that this is why the entities that we see in the Lifestream who represent the Whispers, but specifically the base form of Whisper Harbinger bears a resemblance to Genesis Avatar: It's only a body from the torso upwards, it has the Genesis-Clone-Specific shapes on its hips, there are lots of spikey protrusions, but also they have a single spike emerging from their backs on the same side that Genesis' wing is located, which is the same side that the Unknown Entities' single arm arises from as well:
After Whisper Harbinger is destroyed, we see Sephiroth seemingly absorb this mechanism of the Planet into himself before he emerges. While this represents the fight against Destiny, I think that it's also indicating a victory of Sephiroth's consciousness in the Lifestream where it's been continually fighting to subdue the Will of the Planet itself.
If Sephiroth has been constantly fighting the Will of the Planet ever since Cloud killed him, while his body has been lodged in North Crater, this would explain why the Will of the Planet started to manifest itself as visible Cloaked Entities rather than remaining invisible all the time like something that guides the Planet's flow of life in the form of "Destiny" would. These manifestations that our players encounter are specific to events concerning bringing about the downfall of Sephiroth, which is why Sephiroth starting to gain control over them is something that's making the Planet scream out in pain.
This also connects to a much later explanation of why it isn't until the end of the original game when Sephiroth's defeated that the Lifestream can finally emerge and stop Meteor. It also would make Sephiroth more directly connected to the eventual emergence of the Weapons – where after summoning Meteor with the Will of the Planet under his control, the Weapons start treating humanity like its enemy and protecting him, when normally he's the exact sort of threat that they'd turn to destroy.
Since Sephiroth as the Harbinger also gives us the Advent Children Sephiroth foothold of having the Sephiroth Remnants as his three Whisper bosses, I think that we'll see them start to emerge after we get a more detailed look at Hojo's experiments on SOLDIER.
This is definitely gonna need to involve going to Nibelheim, and luckily, the connections between Project S and Project G as they're being depicted in the Remake also involve Zack – whose role was directly introduced at the end of Remake. Additionally, I think that we're going to see a SOLDIER going through degredation and eventually being puppeted as a Sephiroth Clone, which is what Roche is gonna be around for, and I suspect that he'll be the initiating catalyst that will be the piece of the puzzle that has to fall in place before we actually see Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz emerge.
The one new detail that I haven't managed to find anything on so far is our new Sephiroth Clone symbol. Both #49 & #2 have it on their cloaks, but you only really get a clear look at it on #2. It looks like it's in the same style as the symbol that we use as TLS and that you see behind the FFVII opening:
If I had to guess – it's both an artistic depiction of Jenova's headless body, while also being a stylized depiction of the Sefirot. This makes for a pretty nice thematic connection to Sephiroth, and I think that if we're gonna dig into the metaphysical lore that the game is using with fate, destiny, and souls that this is gonna be an important connection to dig into. Especially given that the first sefirah, Keter, describes the Divine superconscious Will that is beyond conscious intellect, and Da'at is the conscious manifestation of the superconscious Keter – both of which are the "head/crown" of the Sefirot. And that lore is all connected to the Biblical book of Genesis... and we're starting the journey in a game off by Sephiroth recovering Jenova's winged, headless body while Sephiroth is manifesting himself and subsuming control over the the Will of the Planet, and we've got Project S & G confirmed – it's kind of on the nose.
I don't actually know enough about Jewish metaphysical lore, mysticism, spirituality here to even pretend to be able to talk about this in any learned level of detail, but I think it's definitely worth hunting down someone who can, since I think that this is a super important connection to dig into – that's also directly connected to all of the spirituality and mad science stuff in Remake.
I would be very surprised to for Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz to actually make direct present day appearances in the future remake installments, maybe more easter eggs or time-wimey hints at them I can see happening.
With Advent Children being talked about so prominently in the "Inside Remake" videos, and also being mentioned for how dated it looks compared to current gen, I feel like the team REALLY wants to revisit that content within the framework of this new game series, since it's what kicked off the overall look of Remake. Especially with what appear to be changes with fate and things happening in ways that they didn't before, I actually feel like it's almost a guarantee that we see them directly at some point in one of the sequels. Plus, with the new Underground Lab being exposed from the Slums in the very first part of Remake, having something connected to AC/Deepground at the very least as post-game content EX dungeon type material centered around Edge seems almost inevitable if it's not something they're gonna just pull into the main storyline itself with the flexibility that destroying fate has brought them.
I don't know if it's just me trying to see a pattern that doesn't exist or not....
But @X-SOLDIER or anyone who feels so compelled.... Look at the bestiary entries for Whisper Rubrum, Viridi, and Corceo.
Look closely at their chests. The filament pattern that makes up their chests and covers their cores... All look the same.
And I dunno if it's just me, but it really fucking resembles the pattern on the back of the Sephiroth Copies in the Remake.
You or someone should take a close look at the renders of the 3 final boss Whispers and compare it to a clear screenshot of the Sephiroth Copies because... To me, it looks like Whisper Rubrum, Viridi and Corceo carry that mark of Sephiroth or something on their chest.
With Advent Children being talked about so prominently in the "Inside Remake" videos, and also being mentioned for how dated it looks compared to current gen, I feel like the team REALLY wants to revisit that content within the framework of this new game series, since it's what kicked off the overall look of Remake.
Ok, so time to trace the Sefirot! Again, I'm not familiar with any of this, but I did grow up super familiar with Christian Religious Mythology, so I feel like I can at least do well enough to speculate on how our Japanese video game developers are using this in their story.
While all of the points are crossed (except Keter but I'll get to that in a minute), none of the horizontal lines are crossed, all of the vertical lines are crossed, and only some of the diagonal lines are crossed. The horizontal lines are all represented by the letters in Hebrew that are the three linguistic "mothers" so this makes for a really good a symbol of Sephiroth usurping the headless Jenova for his own power, and Jenova appearing in three forms before coming back together as Synthesis in the original game.
Note: I tried digging into the individual letters on those paths more while doing the rest of this, but I don't think that the connections run fundamentally any deeper than just the main connections between the Sefirot themselves when it comes to FFVII.
There are three “Mothers” (Aleph, Mem, and Shin) that represent the horizontal lines.
There are seven “Doubles” (Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh, Resh, and Tav) that represent the vertical lines.
Each double is attributed to a soft and hard sound, positive and negative meaning, direction, planet, gate of the soul, color, angels, and vowel.
The twelve “Elementals” (Heh, Vav, Zayin, Chet, Tet, Yud, Lamed, Nun, Samech, Ayin, Tzaddi, and Kuf) have one pronunciation, and represent the diagonal lines. Other sources say that they correspond to the twelve zodiacal constellations.
So, Keter represents the head of Jenova, but in this version, our lines don't actually go there. The stroke on the right wing is intentionally faint and points downwards back to Da'at. We're getting Keter's connections circumvented and replaced with Da'at – which also lets us know that this is a version of the Sefirot with 11 points, and not just 10 because of the paths that need to be followed to have the intersections meet with Da'at. Additionally, this means that we've got a situation that's starting with Sephiroth taking something and attempting to become his own version of that thing while removing it from the picture – exactly what happens with our decapitated Jenova.
What's interesting about this is that when you're looking at the Kabbalistic connections between the 11 Sefirot & planets, colors, and arch angels... only the 10 Sefirot that appear in the other version get those connections, andDa'at doesn't have any since it represents the mystical state where all of the other 10 Sefirot are united as one. So... our Sefirot focal point in our story involves our Planet-jealous, angelic-appearing, monochromatic bad guy who steals the head of Jenova to become that himself, and obsessively pulling in all of the connections of everything else in creation into himself by re-routing all of the natural horizontal Mother-based Reunion connections into himself, as a way to usurp the powers of all of creation and the knowledge of the Ancients for his own ends. So, on our Sephiroth Clones in Remake, they all have a stylized Sefirot symbol that is literally the representation of all of those elements....
Yup. Feels like we're 100% on the right track with this starting out already.
So, now it's time to look at which Sefirot get connected where, and what other elements we have at play here. I'm gonna leave some blank spaces to help split up the 11 Sefirot by category. The first three are heads of the individual columns that represent the Project S (Intellectual Wisdom), Project G (Intellectual Understanding), and the "failed' Jenova Project of our main characters (The Super Conscious Jenova). The Fourth is Sephiroth, who's attempting to become the ultimate culmination of everything that Jenova actually is. Given that Keter & Da'at are the conscious and unconscious manifestations of the same principle and are considered to be a single Sefirot category – this gets us the exact duality we see with the confusing relationship of whether Sephiroth or Jenova is the one pulling the strings in the original game. This manages to make the metaphor abundantly clear that Sephiroth is the one in charge here.
Keter (The Crown): This is Jenova in the game. She's the representation of the God that Sephiroth is attempting to form himself into by taking away the head itself, and forcing everything to pass through himself instead to become a god.
Chochmah (Wisdom) An idea before it has any limitations, a revelation or creation from nothingness/male: This is Project S
Binah (Understanding) Definition of that idea to bring it into reason/female: This is Project G
Da'at (Knowledge) This is our boy Sephiroth and everything he's attempting to become.
The next six are Emotions, which are points along paths that are generally more representative of events within the games, than being individual Entities or Experiments like the previous four. Those paths do correspond directly to certain individuals though. The one exception could be the "Sefirot=Sephiroth" level obvious "Tiferet=Tifa" since she's the Beauty as a heroine in the game, but also exists in a balance between Grace (Aerith) and Discipline (Cloud) in the story in multiple ways. Additionally, Sephiroth's final Northern Crater One-Winged Angel form has six wings below it, which are likely representative of those six Sefirot being merged within him, and I'm betting that the final game will keep that metaphor. The final Sefirot at the very bottom is the only non-god-quality one, and it's a duality of where everything in the entire Tree of Life eventually flows naturally – the "Will of the Planet" that Sephiroth's plan is fighting to disrupt. This point is a duality that represents Cloud & Aerith.
Tiferet (Beauty) Symmetry and balance between grace (Chesed) and discipline (Gevurah), also where Tifa's story comes into play
Netzach (Eternity) Perpetuity, victory, or endurance.
Hod (Splendor) withdrawl, surrender, sincerity
Yesod (Foundation) The task to accomplish, wholly remembering, coherent knowledge.
Malchut (Kingship) Exaltedness/Humility, the final revelation of the Divine: the giver Aerith and the receiver Cloud.
PRELIMINARY NOTE: Angeal & Sephiroth both have a wing that appears on the right side, and Angeal's has a split into a lower wing. If we're looking at this symbol as if it were looking AT us, it more closely bears a resemblance to the formation of Jenova's wings, but also the three characters we see with wings in the game:
That being said, the descriptions of the paths don't directly align with that side-flipping, because we know that Project G produced both Genesis and Angeal, who had wings on opposing sides (Angeal shares Sephiroth's Right-Side wing, but Genesis' wing is on the left). For this figure, it makes more sense to have the Binah Sefirot represent Gillian, as the left side is Female and there are two distinct paths that connect through her: Angeal & Genesis. That leaves Sephiroth's historical path to've been explored on the right side. Ultimately, this is all detailing an expression of Jenova that's manifested differently across the individuals, and doesn't map 1:1 to the physical manifestations in the symbol, since it's connecting the thematic and the visual – but they're all also interconnected to one another.
THE BIG BREAKDOWN OF THE PATHS MAPPED OUT ON REMAKE'S NEW SEPHIROTH CLONE SEFIROT SYMBOL:
THE RIGHT SEFIROT WING: PROJECT S – This is the "Pillar of Mercy" which is associated to Male Aspect & the element of Fire. Everything about those pretty much screams Sephiroth and the Nibelheim Incident, and it only gets more obvious. This also represents the physical aspects of Jenova and the more classic FFVII Shinra Experiments.
The Nibelheim Incident:
Da'at – Chochmah – Keter
Knowledge obtained from Wisdom taken directly from Jenova.
This is Sephiroth actually taking Jenova's head to obtain knowledge while floating around in the Lifestream in the Northern Crater, as you can only draw the direct parallel to Nibelheim with this one. It's pretty clearly spelled out, and I think is gonna be the most direct one that we have aside from the body itself.
Sephiroth Scheming in Nothern Crater:
Da'at – Chochmah – Chesed – Netzah – Yesod
Knowledge obtained from Project S from Inspiring Vision from Victory & Endurance from Coherent Knowledge.
This one seems like the most likely to be Sephiroth's path in the Northern Crater, discovering that he's not actually an Ancient, and that he's forcing himself to perpetually endure and exist as his initial goal. You get him pulling away Jenova's head, and existing as Da'at making himself the center of all of these paths, and then you get a pretty clear outline of his motivations, and how he's gonna be pulling in the other paths into himself.
THE LEFT SEFIROT WING: PROJECT G – This is the "Pillar of Severity" and it's associated to the Female Aspect & the element of Water. This makes it a pretty clear go-to for Project Gillian, but it also connects to the new Failed Experiments, the Whispers, and the pollution of the Lifestream itself. Interestingly this element makes me think of Jenova Birth because of the Water element, and makes me think that we might end up seeing forms of Jenova that match things in these vertical columns.
Project G: Angeal
Da'at – Binah – Gevurah – Hod
Knowledge obtained from (hand) Project G from Strength/Discipline/Judgement from Withdrawl/Surrender/Sincerity
This is Angeal's path. All of his discipline as a SOLDIER that he passes on to Zack along with the Buster sword is echoed in the line that Zack repeats in the scene where we see him in Remake facing off against the end.
Project G: Genesis
Da'at – Binah – Tiferet – Netzach
Knowledge obtained from Project G from the balance of grace & discipline from endurance & perpetuity
This is Genesis. After becoming Genesis Avatar, his cellular degradation ceases, and he's just sort of left with an understanding of things, but he's taken into Deepground. Notably, this is also the wing that doesn't follow down a column directly, but cuts across diagonally, which means that it's more like a background element that connects Project G at Gillian's origin into Project S at the perpetual existence level. It's also worth noting that in Crisis Core, Genesis is a part of what makes Sephiroth lose his cool at Nibelheim, which is right where Tifa gets pulled in to the story, as it crosses over from Project G into Project S, the Sefirot it intersects is "Tiferet." If you want to know why Project G connects Shinra's science experiments into the Whispers and the Lifestream, and allows Sephiroth to have a path to connect to the Arbiters of Fate & Destiny itself within the very Will of the Planet – this is your answer.
THE CENTRAL PATH: THE FAILED JENOVA EXPERIMENT OF CLOUD
The "Pillar of Mildness" which is associated with breath and the element of Air & a balance of genders. I think that this is likely to actually just be the path of the game's protagonists themselves, and might represent a balance between Cloud's & Aeith's combined story connected to Sephiroth, and the events of the game itself, since they're chasing down Jenova's Body to ultimately reach & defeat Sephiroth.
Following Jenova's Body, Cloud & Aerith – The Complete Story of Final Fantasy VII Remake
(Keter) – Da'at – Tiferet – Yesod – Malchut
Jenova's head with Sephiroth, leading to the balance of both sides together with Tifa in the form of discipline (Cloud & the physical connection to Project S and Jenova) & kindness (Aerith and the spiritual connection to Project G and the Lifestream) which brings about accomplishing the task of wholly remembering (Cloud's Memory) and attaining knowledge (Aerith & Holy) bringing about exaltedness and humility as the final revelation with Aerith as the Giver & Cloud as the Receiver.
This one is the exception to the others, because while Sephiroth is trying to guide those elements up into himself – and manages to do so both with the physical elements of Jenova while he's in the Lifestream in the Northern Crater like I mentioned in my previous post – when he tries to do this with the last of the Cetra as well as the experiment of Cloud, it doesn't go in his favor. Rather than those powers flowing up into him, everything instead flows down into the bottom Sefirot, rather than pulling up into Sephiroth. You could see this as the struggle between Reunion against the flow of the Lifestream itself – or in the context of Remake this is Sephiroth's influence to attempt to manipulate and fight against Destiny, which ultimately cannot, and will not go his way, because of the key roles that Aerith & Cloud have to play in the story – and I assume how Tifa is a core component in that path for both her and Cloud.
This is because in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, while the Divine Light reveals itself in Da'at through the unification of all of the other Sefirot – it can ALSO manifest itself in Malchut. Malchut is the only element of the Sefirot that doesn't emanate directly from God (in this case from Jenova), and the Divine Light appears when humans become self-giving, and then it hides itself from those who are selfish. THIS IS LITERALLY HOW AERITH AWAKENS HOLY AND STOPS SEPHIROTH FROM ACHIEVING VICTORY.
So, if we were to look at Sephiroth in the game – he CAN actually win by doing what he's doing. What he's trying to do LITERALLY THE ENTIRE GAME during Remake is attempting to convince Cloud to help him. He openly states that he wants Cloud to live. He's trying to get you to fight against your destiny and the Planet is SCREAMING in opposition to you fighting against Fate.
All Sephiroth needs to do is stop Aerith from making her sacrifice by making Cloud act out of the selfish desire to save her. Aerith's materia is quite literally The Divine Light of Holy, and it's a useless materia, because it literally cannot be activated without doing something that isn't selfish. Materia activation in general is all about using the knowledge to product a magical effect for your own reasons. I'm willing to bet we learn something from Aerith about when she escapes with Ilfana and ultimately somehow when her mother dies to save her, that she is afraid of using the Materia, but also understand that it's important. I think that Aerith KNOWS that her altruistic action carries a risk, but that it is what pulls the entire story away from flowing up into Sephiroth (Da'at) becoming a god, and pulls the story direction back down into creation itself and out of Sephiroth's control. She talks to the souls in the Lifestream and she knows the Will of the Planet – but she doesn't know exactly what it entails or how it occurs. She's talking the whole game about how there's a much bigger threat, and she reacts to things in a way where she knows something's going to happen, but talks about how doing all of the little things make all the difference.
Like, look at the "dream" sequence with Aerith from Chapter 14: She's watching all of the souls from Sector 7 return to the planet, and she takes up the prayer pose from the Forgotten Capitol, and says, "Everyone dies eventually" before telling Cloud how much he means to her before she straight up tells Cloud that he can't fall in love with her, because she knows what that would mean.
She tries to stop Cloud from going into Destiny's Crossroads, because she KNOWS how dangerous it is. She's afraid of venturing out from underneath the Steel Sky, because she knows how dangerous everything is without Destiny. At the same time, she's acting out of her own interest, and eventually she decides to do the best to help and act in the interest of others. Her & Cloud are the antithesis of Sephiroth's path. Take all of that in mind, and watch their confrontation in Chapter 18 again:
Sephiroth is USING the path of Destiny to show Aerith & Cloud the thing that they both lost, while the Planet literally amasses and army and screams at them not to fight against it. Aerith is losing something of herself every time she encounters the Whispers, because she's more closely connected to all of these things than it seems – but that's because Project G is reinforcing the Lifestream & Sephiroth connection in a way where Sephiroth can fight both her and Cloud with the same weapon – Destiny and the loss of someone dear to them.
He's taking over the powers of the Whisper Harbinger, and manipulating destiny itself. He's trying to lure them into preventing the necessary altruistic sacrifices of the people Cloud & Aerith love. It's the same thing that happened with Angeal & Zack, which is what kicked off their path. They WANT this thing, but they absolutely cannot have it. They have to let it go – and it's going to hurt. They're going to have to give up those possibilities if they want to win, because it is literally the ONLY way to accomplish their task is to realize that what they're doing is something bigger than them, and they have to give up something that matters to them for the bigger picture without any regard for themselves in order to win.
...and now all of that is at risk because of the end of Remake.
I don't know if I could've said this before doing all of the world's most ridiculous tl;dr hyper-focused over-analysis of weird, obscure details, but the inclusion of the Whispers, and the way that this is all woven into the new story as a core part of the Shinra Experiments and Sephiroth, Cloud, & Aerith's core mythology connected to the very Will of the Planet itself with the structure of all of the Jenova Projects: IT'S. FUCKING. BRILLIANT. I literally cannot look at the story in Remake the same way anymore, and I am just fucking blown away by how I now absolutely love something that I was very VERY uncomfortable with in my initial playthrough, and initially only felt ok about retroactively.
LASTLY:
There's still EVEN MORE stuff that I want to get into with Jenova Dreamweaver, but I wanted to mention this one part for now:
The battle it's using the Sephiroth Clone Marco (#49) as a host, while hiding her own decapitated body, and "This guy are sick "(#2) is the one appearing as Sephiroth, who picks it up and flies off. When Jenova Dreamweaver dissipates and then when Marco dies, he doesn't transform into Lifestream life every other living enemy in the game has – including H0512 who literally has a face that is the same as Jenova Dreamweaver's skull. Instead, Marco fades into a grey/purple cloud of mist and droplets. This is the exact same grey color as the Mysterious Spectre & the same purple as the more powerful Enigmatic Spectre. Additionally the effect used for his death is the same ethereal substance that's coming off of the two different forms of cloaked Whispers:
Also, Sephiroth is already telling Cloud at the very beginning to, "Dream the Sweetest Dreams" when the Whispers get close to him, and Marco is sleeping in the room immediately beside Cloud. This is doing a pretty good job of illustrating how Sephiroth's trying to reach out to Cloud and pollute the Lifestream to alter Destiny itself, but he's not fully in control of it.
It isn't until the end of the game when we see Sephiroth absorb the essence of Whisper Harbinger that we see something reminiscent of Advent Children's Geostigma-corrupted-Lifestream.
I assume that we're going to see the way that Sephiroth uses the Whispers is going to be what builds up the emergence of Geostigma. Since we already know that the three Whisper bosses that are connected to Whisper Harbinger bear the same forms as the Sephiroth Remnants, I think that the sign that we might be getting them early, or at least as a part of the conclusion of the story in the game itself is because we know that Kadaj specifically exudes this sort of substance from himself that uses the same grey/purple motif.
While I do feel that there's more to all of this, I also think that current Chapter 17 & 18 really need to get the Red XIII-related content update that I'm 99.9% certain is on its way before I think that we'll have the complete context to delve into it all in full, because I really want to dig back through all of the stuff in The Drum with our first look at Jenova as well before I go as in-detail as I did with this whole Sefirot thing.
But Aerith doesnt need to die, does she? Atleast in the original, it is a massively discussed plot point which as far as I'm aware, reaches the conclusion that Aerith's death wasnt a necessity. It's the epitome of one of the Original's themes, dealing with unexpected death.
Depends on how you mean "need to die." She didn't need to die to get Holy off the ground, but because it got released so late, someone needed to mobilize the Lifestream to assist Holy against Meteor.
Eventually, yes, but it would probably play out like in Advent Children, meaning that Aerith would only be able to do it after Sephiroth was taken out of the equation.
Exactly what Tres and D&D said: While she might have been able to call for Holy and still live in the original game – the truth is that we never learn anything about how her "useless" materia actually works in the first place. It's clear that it can't be activated via normal means, otherwise Aerith wouldn't refer to it that way. It isn't clear that her death was necessary for it, but it isn't clear that it wasn't either.
If you're looking at it within the borrowed Kabbalistic thematic structure that this and the original narrative uses – so long as someone is acting altruistically and not acting selfishly, the Divine Light of Holy can still be revealed by and to mortals.
The issue in the current narrative structure that Remake has established is that defying fate here isn't about performing an act of altruism. It's teasing things being done because they're events that Cloud & Aerith don't want to have occur. This is ultimately putting their own self interests ahead of prioritizing stopping the fate of the Planet the way that Destiny is trying to bring it about. The framework that Remake establishes isn't making it so that her death is necessary – it's specifically making the act of preventing her death into act that is selfish – which is exactly the thing that will prevent Holy from being revealed, and thus it's showing definitively that her death is an intentional act of altruism – which will guarantee that Holy is activated. After that, it's still a fight to save the Planet where Cloud goes against the physical manifestation of Sephiroth, and Aerith covers the metaphysical healing of the Lifestream itself once he's excised from it.
So it's not that she dies or doesn't, it's how that act of selflessness happens or doesn't, which is what makes the difference vis-a-vis Holy.
If dying was necessary to cast Holy, then Sephiroth - who clearly knew all about it and the threat it represented - would have been monumentally stupid to kill her.
Exactly what Tres and D&D said: While she might have been able to call for Holy and still live in the original game – the truth is that we never learn anything about how her "useless" materia actually works in the first place. It's clear that it can't be activated via normal means, otherwise Aerith wouldn't refer to it that way. It isn't clear that her death was necessary for it, but it isn't clear that it wasn't either.
If you're looking at it within the borrowed Kabbalistic thematic structure that this and the original narrative uses – so long as someone is acting altruistically and not acting selfishly, the Divine Light of Holy can still be revealed by and to mortals.
The issue in the current narrative structure that Remake has established is that defying fate here isn't about performing an act of altruism. It's teasing things being done because they're events that Cloud & Aerith don't want to have occur. This is ultimately putting their own self interests ahead of prioritizing stopping the fate of the Planet the way that Destiny is trying to bring it about. The framework that Remake establishes isn't making it so that her death is necessary – it's specifically making the act of preventing her death into act that is selfish – which is exactly the thing that will prevent Holy from being revealed, and thus it's showing definitively that her death is an intentional act of altruism – which will guarantee that Holy is activated. After that, it's still a fight to save the Planet where Cloud goes against the physical manifestation of Sephiroth, and Aerith covers the metaphysical healing of the Lifestream itself once he's excised from it.
So it's not that she dies or doesn't, it's how that act of selflessness happens or doesn't, which is what makes the difference vis-a-vis Holy.
Why is it selfish for Cloud to risk everything to prevent Aerith's death, but selfless to fight for the Planet? Practically speaking he ultimately needs the Planet to survive for his own sake, he can live without Aerith.
Why is it selfish for Cloud to risk everything to prevent Aerith's death, but selfless to fight for the Planet? Practically speaking he ultimately needs the Planet to survive for his own sake, he can live without Aerith.
That all comes down to a matter of underlying motivation: WHY is Cloud trying to prevent her death?
In Advent Children, everything we see with Cloud turning mopey is because of what happened with him not saving Aerith, so we all know how deeply it hurts him emotionally. We also know that Aerith literally never blamed him at all. This means that in-game at this point in the story, Cloud is still motivated to change and prevent things like that because of his own pain and desires – which is inherently a selfish motivation. This is especially clear when we see that by defying destiny, they're also risking the guaranteed outcome of winning the final battle against Sephiroth, which means that they're putting the suffering and potentially the lives of everyone else in the world are at risk in order to accomplish that. The Planet is literally screaming at them because of the risk of what they're doing.
It's entirely possible that there is a selfless reason for Cloud to save Aerith. I don't think that there is one, though. I think that that lesson is what Aerith & Cloud are going to face when looking at the possibility of preventing Zack's death. WHY did they prevent Zack's death? What makes that the right thing to do, vs. what does it risk by doing it. That's the core thematic trajectory of the next game, which will establish the specific stakes around Aerith's death by using the things like this game did with Wedge, where it feels like you actually can change something and get a different outcome – but now you have to consider why you're doing it, and what the cost of that is.
On another note: because I was looking back through my old fan analysis to find some relevant images, I just remembered something about the H0512-OPT transformations that I looked up the other day that I'll expand on a bit & edit in to the original post:
H0512-OPT – They have weird slitted pupils and they know a Fire & and Ice Spell.
H0512-OPTα – They get created after being Mako-infused, and get SOLDIER colored eyes. After this, their only attack is a physical spinning move with their claws (like SOLDIER and swords).
H0512-OPTß – They get additionally showered with Mako, and their eyes glow like Genesis' do, and their attack changes to Apoptosis – which is cellular death – the degradation that G-Copies suffer from.
With Advent Children being talked about so prominently in the "Inside Remake" videos, and also being mentioned for how dated it looks compared to current gen, I feel like the team REALLY wants to revisit that content within the framework of this new game series, since it's what kicked off the overall look of Remake. Especially with what appear to be changes with fate and things happening in ways that they didn't before, I actually feel like it's almost a guarantee that we see them directly at some point in one of the sequels. Plus, with the new Underground Lab being exposed from the Slums in the very first part of Remake, having something connected to AC/Deepground at the very least as post-game content EX dungeon type material centered around Edge seems almost inevitable if it's not something they're gonna just pull into the main storyline itself with the flexibility that destroying fate has brought them.
Hmmm, maybe I suppose it isn’t too out of left field. But I still remain skeptical that they will have direct present day appearances, unless we do get content post-Lifestream destroying Meteor in the final installment.
If dying was necessary to cast Holy, then Sephiroth - who clearly knew all about it and the threat it represented - would have been monumentally stupid to kill her.
Hmmm, maybe I suppose it isn’t too out of left field. But I still remain skeptical that they will have direct present day appearances, unless we do get content post-Lifestream destroying Meteor in the final installment.
The more I look at it, but especially with the ending of Remake showing us Zack's story front-and-center, I think that the core theme about Cloud's pain over losing both Zack & Aerith – even when they beat Sephiroth – is something that the game is going to follow-up. Thematically, the things we know from Advent Children's storyline have already been seeded into the story, so being able to conclude them within the Remake sequels seems like it's really important as well.
We know that the original ending of the game drops Cloud into a really low spot emotionally, and Advent Children's events gives us more time to do things like get back to trying to Rebuild a life in Sector 7 like we never really got to have, and taking care of the Leaf House kids, since Biggs & Aerith aren't around anymore. It's getting to know the Turks a little bit more as people who aren't totally horrid monsters, and letting the pieces of the world that we love feel like they're getting better. Those are moments that carry a HUGE weight to them now, specifically because of how we spent time on our own in Remake going around the Midgar Slums in Chapter 3 & Chapter 8 doing those kinds of things. Giving that to the players means feeling like we're returning back to a time when we were just trying to make a name for ourselves as a Mercenary, and we got to spend happy little moments with people that we cared for... but it also reinforces just how hard it is doing those things again without those people still around beside us.
That's ultimately why having the events that happen in Advent Children involved in the final Remake game's conclusion serves to bring Cloud back out of his sadness is SUPER important for a game that really deals with the difficulties of loss at its emotional core.
My friend / coworker who's also a massive Final Fantasy VII fan killed herself a little over a year ago. We both worked together for about 6 years, even though she was older and we never met back then, we went to the same high school, we liked the same stuff, and a ton of the stuff that I have is hers. Getting back to a normal when you lose someone is fucking hard. You want to do all the normal stuff, but all the normal stuff brings back the memories and shreds you up emotionally. You always want to believe that you could have done something to stop it. It's why I think I probably appreciate this take on things with Remake more than I thought I would.
Even if Cloud know that there isn't anything that he could've done, or when Cloud learns that for some reason he can't stop it – it doesn't stop him from still wanting it literally all the time. This is true in general, but especially when trying to find that sense of "normal" again, and little things just about who he is and what he's doing will constantly remind him of Zack & Aerith. He can't just run away from that and become someone totally different, because that would be betraying who he is and who they made him – but he's struggling to live along with their memories. Cloud is SUPER messed up, not just because of all of the Jenova-Cell-Manipulated-Mako-Poisoned-Puppet or even the Sephiroth-Whispering-Through-Destiny-to-Tempt-Him-to-Change-Fate stuff. He overcomes those things to beat Sephiroth and save the day, but even then – Cloud's dealing with the deaths of two people who loved him who were right in front of him when they died. It's not even just the PTSD effects of that being super mentally horrible, but it's the natural process of pain, guilt, and sadness that feels inescapable that's attached to it.
Final Fantasy VII is the altruistic ending where the world gets saved thanks to Cloud & Co's actions, but the events of Advent Children is where Cloud himself actually gets saved and is the real end of things for Cloud, because that brings the closure to the loss that he feels.
This is why connecting Sephiroth's final Advent Children form to the Remnants, but ALSO connecting their existence to the core concepts of Fate, Destiny, and the Will of the Planet matters. Sephiroth is going to taunt Cloud's pain by trying to take away more things from him and make him suffer – Cloud's response is that there isn't anything he doesn't cherish – which includes the things that came about despite the painful things he experienced. But NOW Sephiroth is also trying to give Cloud those things that get taken away from him, rather than just take them – because Sephiroth's selfish needs to survive means that he needs Cloud to act out of his own pain and self-interest. This is what the ending is all about, because it's confronting us with the fact that the ability to change anything we want is something that we as Cloud will ultimately have to give up to win. The Advent Children part of that is Cloud coming to terms with what happened, and being able to move on and be happy again with the memories of everyone he loves. It's about making sure that the Cloud we get to have when the end credits roll is the little one that Tifa got the tiny glimpses of when he was starting to get his shit together.
Those things are HUGELY important to Final Fantasy VII's story, and Remake has already been thematically establishing those things ALL OVER THE PLACE, and not just within all of the crazy science and metaphysical philosophical storytelling, but in the little simple moments that it gives us all throughout the game to get to know the party as people, and what it's like dealing with horrible stuff like this. Even the NPCs having panic attacks when rubble shifts after the Plate collapses, and the people we see suffering from the Reactor explosion are all about establishing that it's a real world, and our characters are real people, with real emotions – and the journey ahead is going to be insanely difficult, no matter how optimistic about it they all are now.
EDIT: Changed the thread title to something more accurate to where the thread has migrated after this most recent symbol analysis today.
We know that the original ending of the game drops Cloud into a really low spot emotionally, and Advent Children's events gives us more time to do things like get back to trying to Rebuild a life in Sector 7 like we never really got to have, and taking care of the Leaf House kids, since Biggs & Aerith aren't around anymore. It's getting to know the Turks a little bit more as people who aren't totally horrid monsters, and letting the pieces of the world that we love feel like they're getting better. Those are moments that carry a HUGE weight to them now, specifically because of how we spent time on our own in Remake going around the Midgar Slums in Chapter 3 & Chapter 8 doing those kinds of things. Giving that to the players means feeling like we're returning back to a time when we were just trying to make a name for ourselves as a Mercenary, and we got to spend happy little moments with people that we cared for... but it also reinforces just how hard it is doing those things again without those people still around beside us.
Did you mean to say "the Remake's events", not "Advent Children's events"? Because all the subsequent stuff you mention occurs in the Remake not Advent Children?
And you make a good case for there being more post-Meteor destruction content in the final Remake installment, though I wonder how it might be implemented. As part of the base game or perhaps like ReMind was KHIII as explicit post-finale content.
Though I still remain unconvinced that Kadaj and co. will have direct present day appearances in the main Remake games before then.
Did you mean to say "the Remake's events", not "Advent Children's events"? Because all the subsequent stuff you mention occurs in the Remake not Advent Children?
Oh, no I was referring to the events around Advent Children being at the point in time that involves establishing Edge, Tifa setting up the bar again, Cloud doing odd deliveries, taking care of orphaned kids, etc. because those are all the things that we've already done in Remake, and doing them again after the end of the game is a big part of revisiting that feeling for a second time.
And you make a good case for there being more post-Meteor destruction content in the final Remake installment, though I wonder how it might be implemented. As part of the base game or perhaps like ReMind was KHIII as explicit post-finale content.
Though I still remain unconvinced that Kadaj and co. will have direct present day appearances in the main Remake games before then.
The reason that I actually expect to see more connections to them made before the end portion of the final installment is specifically Roche. He's set up as a prominent new character – but we only see him about as much as we see the Turks or Rufus, so he's clearly still got a role to play. He looks and acts like a fusion of Yazoo & Loz, and he's got the motorcycle obsession to match the Remnants. Additionally, the gradual mental and physical degradation of someone in SOLDIER slowly turning into something like we see with the Sephiroth Clones seems like exactly what he is there to do.
He's also sort of sympathetic in that he's so unhinged he sort of helps you out, and he's markedly obsessed with Cloud already. He's the sort of person that I see as the catalyst of that crazed child-like quality that doesn't come directly from Sephiroth, but that we do see in the Remnants. Additionally, since we don't know how many games there will be between here and the end, it's important to maintain that element's presence within the story if you're going to use it as a part of the big conclusion.
Like, think about the highway chase that you have with him through Midgar in Chapter 4, eventually being echoed when you're running through Midgar's old highway trying to chase down Kadaj while fighting Yazoo & Loz with the Turks overhead in a helicopter – but there to help this time. It's those little parallels in Cloud life that used to be him spacing out and seeing things from the past, but now they're moments that are just echoes of what came before because that's exactly the state that Sephiroth is trying to put Cloud back into.
That's why the Shinra Science Experiments being so closely connected to the stuff with the Whispers was something that intrigued me initially. Everything with the plot arcs and the Sefirot symbol analysis really drove home all of those things being definitively interlinked, which means that I can't overlook Roche's character, and the reason that they included him at all given how extremely trivial his role seems to be in this game. Think about it – If the motorcycle chase was just a normal chase, and then Avalanche interrupted things the way that they did in the end – you could totally remove Roche from Remake and never notice, because he doesn't add anything critical in this first game.
What he does is help reinforce and establish some themes early on that are going to be revisited again in the future that are directly connected to Cloud – and only Cloud, since no one else from the main cast is around when they two of them fight, and Roche is explicitly interested in Cloud. He's setting up for a recurring relationship that will change throughout the games and ultimately guide its way into Cloud's personal resolution with the Advent Children events, that also provides the game's necessary exposition about how all of the crazy SOLDIER and mad science shit is connected to it all that there wouldn't be a vessel to explore that connection through otherwise.
