SPOILERS Remake's Shinra Experiments, Whispers, & Compilation Thematic Analysis

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So, this is evolving a bit into something REALLY interesting, and a good bit longer. The main focus is still all about the Sefirot symbol, but the vector for connecting design inspirations to important game concepts is working way better than I had hoped, because I was able to use things to help show how much inspiration and interpretation of things happens with pop culture references, and use that as a framework to discuss religious stuff being used in a way that doesn't feel disrespectful or overly trivial.



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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So, I have it getting pretty close to a state where I think that I can get it proofed, and maybe MAYBE have it out some time around the weekend to next week, depending. I definitely need to read it all end-to-end a few times before that though to see what I can tighten up. It's got an opening introduction & the content is split into sections that are linked at the start & broken up between 10 different pages, so that it's more digestable in small pieces, and right now it's about.... 19,000 words?
:hugeawesomonster:

I'm really glad that I took extra time to poke at even more little threads, since sometimes the most odd little innocuous details just cracked open MASSIVE perspectives to mine for information & context. Not gonna lie though, digging into this stuff has had big parts of the story in the original and in Remake feel like there's a clarity to them that even I've never had before – And that has resulted in connecting dots where it felt like I just got emotionally sucker-punched by a freight train... and that happened several different times.

I'm properly damn pleased with what it's transformed into, and hopefully I can get it to a consumable state within a week or so.




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Ok, I've read it end-to-end while re-writing bits about twice now. I can probably end up getting it completed by the end of the weekend, and then proofed & posted some time after that. At this point, I'm nudging up against the cup of 25,000 words (meaning that it's already twice as long as that thing I wrote last time, which was already the longest article ever posted on TLS). This is probably much more manageable to get through thanks to what I learned on that one, since it's very much designed at the outset to let you know that this is something to take your time with and come back to as needed.

How it started as a, "fun loose interpretation where I'll have to justify a lot of vague context"
tenor.gif


Once it evolved into, "Sweet holy mother of god, there are SO MANY insanely clear & detailed examples"
giphy.gif


(Thanks to Tres for that last image when we were chatting the other day). :mon:


Honestly, at this point, the thing that I'm most excited about is that there's probably a mountain's worth of dots that haven't been connected yet. Like, I intentionally stayed away from even beginning to do any of the speculation about the Project G related stuff and the Whispers, because despite all of the things that I've dug into about them in this thread – not even those things feel as overwhelmingly thoroughly contextually supported at this stage, but I am excited at the prospecting at digging around at that sort of in-world-only speculation afterwards, once I have some recover time from this absolute thrill ride of binge-writing.



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Welp... It's completed. It'll be proofed when it can be, and I'll post it after whenever that is completed.
I will not even pretend to make a guess at how soon that might be... because it is split into 11 pages, and just over 35,000 words.

Just to take you all on the path I followed to get there (not how it's laid out in the article)

Loose Thematic Analysis of Abstract Video Game Symbol, leads to...
Analyzing Jewish Religious Mythology & Comparing Story Points, leads to...
An examination of Japanese Culture and David Bowie in the late 1970s (and feeling insane), leads to...
A deeper examination of Remake's use of themes in comparison to the original game & those other elements, leads to...
Even more points of comparison and the clarification of new Metaphors & Iconography matching themes, leads to...
Personal Ruminations of those themes, leads to...
Examination of Final Fantasy VII's original writing team & story development, leads to...
Full understanding about how the foundation emerged & this is intentional and not utter fucking madness, leads to...
Re-writing a few points with a more informed perspective & being able to complete this massively detailed thing that has consumed my mind.

Dear gods, I hope that it gives a bunch of interesting new things to think about for you guys. :awesomonster:



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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It's currently looking like it'll have the proofing finished on Monday, and I'll post it a bit after that. After that I'll have a proper news thread for that stuff so, I'll be able to get back a bit more to posting stuff about the Whispers & everything vis-a-vis Shinra Science. Quite looking forward to getting back to more in-universe-specific stuff.

I am curious how they're going to handle the idea of Jenova's virus & the creation of monsters historically when we get to Ilfana's tapes. After writing what I did, I feel like we're going to cover a general look at Gast & the two Jenova Projects. I'm not sure how much detail they'll get into G aside from just identifying the copy-types and maybe covering some of the cellular problems they experience. Personally, I think it'd be interesting to see if that's used to help provide some more explanation about things vis-a-vis the final stage of Jenova's Virus. I'd be very much like getting some preliminary context about Geostigma and I'm also hoping that we're gonna get some more details about Jenova on-par to what the Shinra HQ & Aerith's room offered about the Cetra. I'm expecting that we'll get more expanded Planetology information in Cosmo Canyon as well (especially since those seem to be the same hologram chambers that Shinra uses).

Related: Was there anything mentioned in the Ultimania about the Holographic devices being called the "Cosmos Theater"?

Screen Shot 2020-06-26 at 11.12.16 PM.png

Those seemed very much like they were meant to be referential to Bugenhagen's observatory when I initially ran into them. Personally, I like the idea of Shinra taking technology that was used for the study of Planetology & turning them into propaganda tools. It seems VERY in-line with their portrayal in the game thus far.




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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IT HAS BEEN POSTED. Here's a link to the new thread.

Related to the Gast stuff, I'm very interested to see how much we'll see more of little relationships like that from former employees, and such, since with Avalanche & Wutai being expanded upon, they're very much setting up to have a lot more points of contact around that stuff this time around. I think that it'll actually do a lot of good for Cid's story in the long run.



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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So something to note regarding the Whispers, that I might finally be getting around to tackling next. The Whispers are the "Arbiters of Fate" and I hadn't thought too much about it before writing the big Sefirot article, but Sephiroth has had his theme song blasting out full-volume Latin lyrics about how fucking pissed off he is and how awful and meaningless fate is in the original game – and then all over again but with a tinge of broken sorrowful awareness of Fate as an absolute horror to everyone in Advent Children.

One-Winged Angel said:
Estuans interius Ira vehementi.
Burning inside with violent anger.

Sors immanis- Et inanis.
Fate- monstrous & empty.

Veni, veni, venias, Ne me mori facias.
Come, come, oh come, Do not let me die.

Gloriosa Generosa.
Glorious and Noble.

Advent One-Winged Angel said:
Noli manere, manere in memoria
Do not remain, remain in memory

Saevam iram, iram et dolorem
Raging anger, anger and sorrow

Ferum terribile, terribile fatum
Brutal, terrible, terrible fate

Veni, mi fili. Veni, mi fili. Hic veni, da mihi mortem iterum
Come, my son. Come my son. Come here, give me death once more

Tu qui mortem invitavit
He, who invited death,

poena funesta natus es,
[was] born with an ill-fated punishment.

Noli nomen vocare!
Don't call [his] name!

Ille iterum veniet.
He will come again.

  • FF7 Sephiroth starts out burning inside with violent anger, and feels that Fate is monstrous & empty.
  • AC Sephiroth comes back with raging anger & sorrow, and feels that Fate is brutal & terrible, and he was born with an ill-fated punishment.
Oh boy, does that ever match up with the progression of decreasing external violent expression, slowly wrapping into personal examination & self-hatred, suddenly interested in a mutual destruction of Fate and escaping tragedy that Remake's new Sephiroth is all about. If there was ever any reason to wonder about why Fate itself is being exposed & attacked in Remake, I think that it is overwhelmingly clear why, and that the focus on the Unknown "Ore"-personal-pronoun-using Sephiroth is set squarely in on obliterating it for good.

It's a really damned good evolution of his character arc as a pseudo-deity who's getting this sort of incredible cosmic power & awareness, given that some of the lyrics of the original "One-Winged Angel" were pulled from "O Fortuna" – which is literally a poem about the inexorable fate that rules both gods & mortals.

So, that's what I'm gonna be using to sort of kickstart the idea of looking into the Whispers as a facet of Final Fantasy VII's in-world setting, since we know that the surrounding messaging from the original and into Advent Children have Sephiroth focused on his own fate, and we've got the David Bowie tragic villain connection all established there that'll make it easy to present all of this as sort of an opening framework to looking at Fate itself inside the context of Final Fantasy VII's world, and what things that it's connected to.


So, that's gonna bring us to Project G. We know that we've gotta cover the idea of Cetran scriptures in general, since we know that Remake is using them. Additionally, Genesis also being the book of Genesis where the Sefirot comes from means that if you're looking at a sort of book of prophesy that our current NG+ Sephiroth is using as a way to ensure that those things don't happen, that definitely gives us the possibility that Loveless might still be working as a sort of playbook that Sephiroth is trying to use to avoid what's happening.

That would get us to the Project G looking for the Gift of the Goddess & the Planet's powers as a connection to the idea that Fate is a sort of passive "emotional Sefirot" defense system the same way that the Weapons are an active "intellect Sefirot" defense system sort of splitting up the parts of the Planet that they each tend to be focused on.

That gets enough of the Project G connections from a structural standpoint that we can focus on the Design overlaps with Genesis' Sankosho Vajra-looking Wing Claws, which is likely gonna mean that we get to do some light poking around at the Buddhism-based perspective to Final Fantasy VII with the Three Vajras (thanks to Asura's Wrath for giving me a massive head start on recognizing that). This matches with Angeal (mind), Sephiroth (body), & Genesis (voice), since those are the traits common in Tendai & Shingon Buddhism in Japan known as "the Three Mysteries" that would match up with those three aspects of Jenova. This also gets us the reason that we've got another triplet pair with "Rubrum, Viridic, & Croceo" as those three aspects of the Whisper Harbinger, matching the same thing that we see with "Kadaj, Yazoo, & Loz" as those three aspects of Sephiroth himself. Shingon Buddhism also focuses on the three divisions of the Outer Tantras. This gets you a first step of ritual actions (Sephiroth in the original game), a second step that achieves liberation through meditations where the other buddhas are an emanation of the primary deity (Sephiroth in Advent Children), and the third which is most focused on internal practices (Sephiroth in Remake with his changed self pronouns and such).

How overtly any of that will come up... not clear, but it's good to know that there's a solid framework for looking at those relationships, since I think that more than likely that's a path that's being used, so that they can align the concepts of those characters to the three paths in the Sefirot, so that they each represent a collective trinity of a combined whole, and put a little bit more Japanese-specific perspective to align the spiritual concepts in the game to things that both a Japanese & a Western audience can equally align to when looking at the struggles of Sephiroth trying to achieve his own version of enlightenment, and having those being intrinsically interconnected to the patterns that repeat over time in the games.

So, with the trio of trios, we've at least got a good way to get in to the idea that those are a fundamental part of Final Fantasy VII Remake's world, and we can start poking around at the connections that exist between the Planet's Reunion & Jenova's Reunion, how they mirror each other, why Sephiroth hates them, and what all of the mad science that Hojo has been getting up to beneath Midgar & in The Drum that gets hinted at.

We're getting more of a focus on Wutai, so the G-type SOLDIER are high up on the list to look at design-wise, since I think that it makes sense to cover all of the new mad science shit before wrapping back into the more regular-looking Whispers, and then draw the connection and things back to Sephiroth from the Jenova-experiment perspective.


Anyhow – those are my current ramblings on whereabouts I'm thinking of jumping around once I start getting into breaking down and analyzing the Whispers.


Then once they're out of the way, I can do an article more focused on the Drum & Shinra's crazy science experiments and get back to my REAL passion – the Shock Troopers. :awesomonster:




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Huge credit to @Sleepezi over at Discord for this observation.

Basic defining features of the Type-0 Behemoth's horns match up with the horns of Azul's behemoth form, Arch Azul.


When Sleepezi first pointed this out I figured "Surely, this horn design is all over multiple Behemoth designs in Final Fantasy" but I made a search and could not find this basic design repeated elsewhere. I am thus convinced that whoever designed the Type-0 Behemoth used Arch Azul as an inspiration and did so for the obvious reason that both are from Deepground.

Just quote posting this over from another thread (thanks @Shademp for the heads up), so that I can remember to reference it when I start getting into the Project G & Deepground connections.



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Just wanted to poke my head in and let everyone know that I'm not dead. I'm actually consistently active, but just not on the forums. I've been pouring basically every ounce of spare functional brain power I have when I'm not relaxing into writing and research for this latest thing. I'm at a point where the outline I have is pretty solid, and I've gotta complete about... 5-6 more sections and then start the end-to-end read throughs of things. Create some more collections of images, and space out various sections.

It's covering just a shitton of stuff that I don't think has really been poked at deeply before, and it's been an absolute delight of a time doing so far. And yes, it's another very tl;dr, but hey – were you expecting anything else? :awesomonster:

But yes. Things are happening. I am relatively well (all things considered) and hopefully I'll be back to regular forum-ing and whatnot in a couple weeks probably?





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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Update: It's gonna be... longer than the last one, since I think I'm just about the length of the previous one, and still have at least one pretty significant section of content to cover.
:bigawesomonster:

Also, because I was watching Briana White play though Chapter 17 of Remake on Twitch the other day, I incidentally ended up realizing that everything that I was covering provides all of the information needed to interpret the mural in Aerith's room, as well as the mural serving as an excellent source of condensing those themes back into the game.

So you get to enjoy another new Remake in-game symbol analysis once I'm done with this. ^_^

I've gotten to binge-read several thousand pages of manga to be able to write some of the stuff I did this week, so that's been fun!




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Update: It is still coming along and I am very much into writing and compiling the meat of all of the things that this thread was initially created for now. I feel like it's going even better than I had hoped, because of some things that I sort of happened upon that managed to present just a shitton of the most helpful context ever.

By which I mean that I needed to be sure that I understood a few references I was making more clearly, so I binge-read over 12,000 pages of manga, while tracking the original chapter release dates, so that I would know which things could have been references to what FF7 games when, and which things would have been made when they could have been referencing from which FF7 games instead.

It's... oddly satisfying since so much stuff came from it to help present context, but also you know... time spent researching like that cuts into time spent typing about all the things you learned researching. :awesomonster:

(Also, occasionally real life still happens, but I will keep chiming in here when I can until I officially release the tidal wave of information upon you).



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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield

Figure I'll be getting a lot more good information on the Whispers today. Also, really interesting to know that they're called "feelers" in Japanese (which I have lots of thoughts on already).



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Theory: Aerith started to see them when Aerith in the lifestream (who knows about the future) touches her either through a dream, or wacky dimensional event.

Whispers realize her present self has awareness of fate and future events and begin to pester her.
 

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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Well, holy shit....

I hit some pretty intense discoveries while rummaging around with a bunch of concepts & re-treading and reviewing more things aaaaaannnnndddd... I don't know if I'll be done this week. I have a lot of restructuring to do of the order that I present the content in, and finishing writing up several sections but I think that it's REALLY coming together now. Today was VERY exciting, but specifically because of the main topic of this thread.

This is some CRAZY SHIT, you guys & I am stoked. :D




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Hiya! The last couple weeks have been just insanely busy in my real world life, so I haven't gotten as much written on this as I'd like to. Plus, I've spent a lot of time shuffling the structure and flow of some elements and deciding how and when to address certain topics – since oftentimes while researching, I'll have to go back and add in detail, or remove detail, and transpose it into a later section if it is easier to understand when introduced with a different topic, and with other preliminary content in place already.

However, I did end up getting time to go diving back into some parts of Remake to double check things and pulled a lot of details out of doing that. I also went back through all of the main story content of Dirge of Cerberus & Crisis Core as well as several of the battles, enemy behaviours, and attacks to re-review other design and gameplay elements. Once I had those to help me poke around at things, I ended up finding a lot of extremely helpful minor notes & references around concept art in the Ultimania books that helped to line it up to examples in design and gameplay and whatnot.

Because of that, I'm strongly tempted to try and get the bulk of the content sorted out, but keep this in a working draft state until the end of the month, because now I really think that there's a decent possibility that I'll be able to pull some useful information from the Remake Material Ultimania, and I'd rather write and integrate any details there than do an after-the-fact errata.

It's been weird being essentially quiet and channelling 98% of my Forum-time energy into something that's not as active to discuss, but hopefully it'll be worth the wait. At least from a personal perspective it's been just a ridiculously enjoyable time full of crazy discoveries on little design details as well as the application of particular iconography and story elements and how they're used and what sort of inspirational nudges were around when they were being made.



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Harbinger O Great Justice
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Update: I've finished reading all of the manga that I need to read, and in addition to getting some more things to reference and detail, I've spent the last several days doing just... and absolutely insane amount of research around things from Wutai that might be some of the most important stuff that I've ever dug up with Final Fantasy VII.

I think that the thing that's been impressing me the most so far is that as I've been digging as deeply as I can possibly conceive into everything related to Final Fantasy VII & the Compilation & Remake, it's just... there is an insanely detailed structural underpinning at a design level that is just incredibly consistent all throughout all of the games. I am properly excited to see what little additional things I'll be able to get out of the Ultimania when it arrives, so that I can tighten up and double check some elements, and then I'll FINALLY be able to get this thing out to you.

Also, full disclosure – when I do, this... "article" finished, it is something that would possibly best be read over a number of days, and I'm splitting it into several different grouped sections with an index, but I'm still sorting and arranging them given what I managed to dissect from this latest dive into insane details. It is currently already more than twice the length of the last thing I wrote, and I expect that it'll be a good chunk more than that once I actually get finished with everything.

So yes. If my tl;dr is your jam, I really have been devoting my time to creating an exceptionally great amount of it during this period of "silence" :awesomonster:




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Harbinger O Great Justice
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I cannot overstate how glad I am that I waited for this to come out. Still writing a bunch, having to dive into some more references and things again, even as I'm pouring over images (thanks @Makoeyes987 ) and translations while still waiting for my own copy to arrive, so that I can make sure that I've got all the little bits and pieces that I need.

It's definitely got the final bits that I needed to really tighten everything up to be what I want. Also, it is still going to be absolutely patently ridiculous just how long this thing is, but holy shit I'm pretty goddamn proud of where it's going especially the last few days.

Also, I am dealing with a lot of just outright mental exhaustion an other struggles with memory and things (thanks life circumstances), but progress is happening!



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Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Eagerly awaiting your work, X.

Any chance you'd release a PDF version with bookmarks? In case you do... would you do the same with your latest analysis?

Your 'Potential of:' articles were quite cool too, so... maybe you should give it a go soon again!

:desucait:

I'd never considered a PDF version as I've never converted anything into that format before, but I'm definitely not against the idea of it. :awesomonster:



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