Rufus' Character Fits With the Deconstructive Nature Of Final Fantasy 7

[Gary Caelum]

I want to hear who they could cast as Jenova.

The guy who voices Goofy in Disney, obviously :-)

 

[jazzflower92]

The guy who voices Goofy in Disney, obviously :-)

I'm serious!

 

[Gary Caelum]

Ok then, I'm imagining something like the voice for Lust in Darksiders 3. At the beginning here:

That, or Goofy.

 

[jazzflower92]

Ok then, I'm imagining something like the voice for Lust in Darksiders 3. At the beginning here:

That, or Goofy.

I really do think that Lust's voice could fit a shapeshifter like Jenova.

 

[Ite]

I love how low that voice is!! It fits Jenova’s ambiguity perfectly.

 

[jazzflower92]

I love how low that voice is!! It fits Jenova’s ambiguity perfectly.

Yeah, a voice actress or actor that can give such an androgynous performance would be good.

 

[Clement Rage]

The same actress that voices Cloud's mom, maybe with a buzzy effect, maybe not.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like that idea.
It's on the principle that the actor who plays Captain Hook in Peter Pan is also the actor who plays Mr Darling.

 

[jazzflower92]

I like that idea.
It's on the principle that the actor who plays Captain Hook in Peter Pan is also the actor who plays Mr Darling.

That actually is a good idea.

However, let's get back to the original main topic about Rufus fitting into the deconstructive nature of FF7. If they kept focus as Shinra as the main baddies, then it would probably take a more cynical take on the fact that it takes more than killing the head to dethrone a regime like that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Aside from the environmental issues, what's wrong with their regime?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well the fact they control almost all facets of business and trade within the world is certainly wrong, along with the fact that they have a complete monopoly of power which they use capriciously, maliciously and vindictively.

Also the fact they regularly experiment on humans and eliminate all witnesses to said experiments to the point they have extras on call to portray the missing citizenry is extremely disturbing.

Soooooo. Yeah.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But those are abuses of their power, not a reason why the way their power is structured is wrong per se.

I can't go to breakfast yet so let me elaborate. Shinra, Inc. has pretty much absolute power, but it abuses that power. It does a lot of very bad things to individuals and communities. It has also brought a lot of good to the world, as the NPCs keep saying. Particullarly in economics and standards of living. If the history of FFVII followed the course of real history, many of the discoveries made by Gast and his team would have led directly or indirectly to advances in medical science for the mass of ordinary people, who may well "have never had it so good."

So when Jazzflower says "a regime like that", does she mean a regime with absolute power, or a regime that abuses its power? The Trump Regime in the USA doesn't have absolute power, but it abuses the power it has. As long as it doesn't take that abuse too far, it should be fairly easy to get rid of, because the USA has a long democratic tradition. Regimes of absolute, centralised power do tend to abuse their power, because it's the essence of their power that it seeks to preserve itself against all threats. This of course is why Plato said that only philosophers should be kings, although I doubt it would really help much. When regimes of absolute power are torn down, they are never, ever replaced by a democracy - unless there was previously a history of democratic tradition to fall back on. They are replaced by a new regime of absolute power that lacks the authenticity of the old regime (authenticity is the wrong word but my brain is blocked on the right one), and so there's a long period of terrible chaos in which various players are struggling for power and all the ordinary people start longing for the bad old days in which at least you could walk down the street without getting shot by a sniper or guillotined by the Committee of Public Safety.

 

[jazzflower92]

But those are abuses of their power, not a reason why the way their power is structured is wrong per se.

I can't go to breakfast yet so let me elaborate. Shinra, Inc. has pretty much absolute power, but it abuses that power. It does a lot of very bad things to individuals and communities. It has also brought a lot of good to the world, as the NPCs keep saying. Particullarly in economics and standards of living. If the history of FFVII followed the course of real history, many of the discoveries made by Gast and his team would have led directly or indirectly to advances in medical science for the mass of ordinary people, who may well "have never had it so good."

So when Jazzflower says "a regime like that", does she mean a regime with absolute power, or a regime that abuses its power? The Trump Regime in the USA doesn't have absolute power, but it abuses the power it has. As long as it doesn't take that abuse too far, it should be fairly easy to get rid of, because the USA has a long democratic tradition. Regimes of absolute, centralised power do tend to abuse their power, because it's the essence of their power that it seeks to preserve itself against all threats. This of course is why Plato said that only philosophers should be kings, although I doubt it would really help much. When regimes of absolute power are torn down, they are never, ever replaced by a democracy - unless there was previously a history of democratic tradition to fall back on. They are replaced by a new regime of absolute power that lacks the authenticity of the old regime (authenticity is the wrong word but my brain is blocked on the right one), and so there's a long period of terrible chaos in which various players are struggling for power and all the ordinary people start longing for the bad old days in which at least you could walk down the street without getting shot by a sniper or guillotined by the Committee of Public Safety.

Actually Trump can't be compared to the absolute control that Shinra has on society. Unlike Trump, the Shinra corporation controls all the information. It's basically a cyberpunk corporation in a Science Fantasy world. With Shinra, if they were smart they would have used what they found to better humanity. However, they used it to make a force to protect their interests. Then again as seen before science can be used in terms of military strength.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact consolidated power such as Shinra's exists lends itself to abuse because competition, greed and the fear of losing said power creates a strong motivation to wield said power selfishly and maliciously towards the acquisition of further resources. A corporation that has such unrestrained, unchecked power is going to eventually spiral into dangerous territory due to simple human nature.

If any sole conglomerate is able to monopolize and wield total economic, scientific, and military control over an entire planet, it's only a matter of time that power ends up corrupted and being used for ill ends. Because the power alone becomes the sole motivating factor in maintaining and furthering said power. The Shinra Company furthers its influence to ensure its influence never wanes, and always grows. It brutally opposes any hint of resistance to ensure resistance never occurs. It pushes the boundaries of scientific morality because it can, and it serves as another avenue to enhance and secure it's power.

Shinra is power run amok. A company that serves only itself and has absolute power can only be considered "wrong" in a world that has to suffer it's oppression and control. For the people who run and work for Shinra it may seem great, convenient and harmless. But everyone else? Shinra's a vampiric Malboro wrapped around the face of the planet, relentlessly clamping its jaws into anything that smells like Mako

 

[jazzflower92]

The fact consolidated power such as Shinra's exists lends itself to abuse because competition, greed and the fear of losing said power creates a strong motivation to wield said power selfishly and maliciously towards the acquisition of further resources. A corporation that has such unrestrained, unchecked power is going to eventually spiral into dangerous territory due to simple human nature.

If any sole conglomerate is able to monopolize and wield total economic, scientific, and military control over an entire planet, it's only a matter of time that power ends up corrupted and being used for ill ends. Because the power alone becomes the sole motivating factor in maintaining and furthering said power. The Shinra Company furthers its influence to ensure its influence never wanes, and always grows. It brutally opposes any hint of resistance to ensure resistance never occurs. It pushes the boundaries of scientific morality because it can, and it serves as another avenue to enhance and secure it's power.

Shinra is power run amok. A company that serves only itself and has absolute power can only be considered "wrong" in a world that has to suffer it's oppression and control. For the people who run and work for Shinra it may seem great, convenient and harmless. But everyone else? Shinra's a vampiric Malboro wrapped around the face of the planet, relentlessly clamping its jaws into anything that smells like Mako

Not to mention the fact that Shinra became a dictatorship all but in name. And one that is for life, since the role of head of the company is passed down from parent to child.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't disagree with that, but you're talking specifically about Shinra, Inc, whereas jazzflower specified "regimes like Shinra", so I'm trying to establish which aspect of Shinra she's referring to. Personally I would have though that if a single power reigned unchallenged across an entire planet, the fear of losing said power would no longer be issue, and the selfishness and corruption that is the inevitable product of such fear would no longer be so inevitable.

"If any sole conglomerate is able to monopolize and wield total economic, scientific, and military control over an entire planet, it's only a matter of time that power ends up corrupted and being used for ill ends." We don't have any historical evidence to confirm this. We only have evidence of regimes that wielded total power within their own territory but faced threats to their existence from without. Like I said, perhaps the security that comes from having complete control over everything would remove the need for ruling by fear and produce a kinder, gentler regime.

President Shinra is literally like a loose cannon that fires off randomly in any direction that catches his attention. But 99.9% of the population are never going to catch his attention, and we may suppose that the majority of the people who work for Shinra, the ones who interface directly with the public, are decent people.

 

[Roger]

Having absloutely no accountability or oversight allows creatures like Hojo to thrive. In a vacuum, Rufus might be a servicable ruler but the atrocities that the rest of it's board members still happened. Anyone that climbed the corporate ladder at Shinra has had to be okay with a lot of blood being on their hands.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Having absloutely no accountability or oversight allows creatures like Hojo to thrive." This is potentially true but depends entirely on the character and objectives of the person at the top. President Shinra seems to have no morality at all. To quote one of my favourite authors, "As a moral entity, he doesn't even exist." Rufus canonically seems to have a little more innate human decency, or maybe his suffering taught it to him. Anyway, I think I would argue that having absolute power over everything makes corruption less likely than having absolute power over only a limited territory and being obliged to defend it.

 

[jazzflower92]

"Having absloutely no accountability or oversight allows creatures like Hojo to thrive." This is potentially true but depends entirely on the character and objectives of the person at the top. President Shinra seems to have no morality at all. To quote one of my favourite authors, "As a moral entity, he doesn't even exist." Rufus canonically seems to have a little more innate human decency, or maybe his suffering taught it to him. Anyway, I think I would argue that having absolute power over everything makes corruption less likely than having absolute power over only a limited territory and being obliged to defend it.

I kind of disagree. Absolute power is a drug. As the Simpsons described it:

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't disagree with that, but you're talking specifically about Shinra, Inc, whereas jazzflower specified "regimes like Shinra", so I'm trying to establish which aspect of Shinra she's referring to. Personally I would have though that if a single power reigned unchallenged across an entire planet, the fear of losing said power would no longer be issue, and the selfishness and corruption that is the inevitable product of such fear would no longer be so inevitable.

"If any sole conglomerate is able to monopolize and wield total economic, scientific, and military control over an entire planet, it's only a matter of time that power ends up corrupted and being used for ill ends." We don't have any historical evidence to confirm this. We only have evidence of regimes that wielded total power within their own territory but faced threats to their existence from without. Like I said, perhaps the security that comes from having complete control over everything would remove the need for ruling by fear and produce a kinder, gentler regime.

President Shinra is literally like a loose cannon that fires off randomly in any direction that catches his attention. But 99.9% of the population are never going to catch his attention, and we may suppose that the majority of the people who work for Shinra, the ones who interface directly with the public, are decent people.

What you're implying requires an unrealistic expectation of benevolence and logical consciousness that has never been shown to exist in people wielding such power.

Regardless of external threat or not, that doesn't condone, justify or legitimize any such consolidation or abuse of power because by definition its exploitive and unearned. And no dictator or tyrant is just "secure" in their power. They either seek to further entrench it or expand it. President Shinra is the rule, not the exception. He behaved as anyone with a stronghold on power, what makes him interesting is just how human and realistic he is as a villain. He is humanly tyrannical and villainous. To his exploitation and abuse of people, to the numerous affairs and out of wedlock children he had from flings all across Midgar.

Acting as if such abuses would not be likely under anyone else is just wholesale uunrealistic. And one can easily look at historical evidence of dictatorships under no real external threat for examples.

Mao Zedong exercised cruel and vindictive crack downs on *all* threats to his ideological rivals during the Cultural Revolution of '69-'79. Real or perceived. No "external threat" existed, just the perceived slippage of ideological and governmental hegemony after the utter failure of his "Great Leap Forward."

The millitary dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet was a complete coup d'etat after the democratic election of the socialist government of '73. They justified seizing power due to a previous economic crisis and hid their corrupt intentions behind a veneer of national "reconstruction". It sysyematicaly oppressed all dissenting parties with violence unprecedented in the history of Chile, with over 3000 people killed in extrajudicial killings and tens of thousands tortured and held prisoner. There was no "external threat", just a man exercising and wielding absolute power and control over an entire country and ensuring said power never slipped through his grasp. It wasn't until 1990 that the people would seize back control and end the repression of his dictatorship.

So no. There is plenty of evidence of absolute power being utilized in ways parallel to Shinra and next to zero of it going towards benevolency. These examples may not be on a global scale like in FFVII but if humans can't handle absolute power on a scale 1/30th of the planet, what evidence is there anyone could do it on the scale of the entire planet? By it's very nature it'd be illegitimate and oppressive.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I wrote this half a day ago but forgot to post it
Yes, but.... the main problem for most drug addicts is getting the drug. Physically of course drugs can wreck your insides, but most people when actually on the drugs are blissfully away with the fairies (unless having a bad trip). The saying "power is a drug" means that people keep wanting more and more of it so they do reprehensible things to get it. If you can be guaranteed an inexhaustible supply of a drug, you can be a drug addict for years without doing bad things, or at least no worse than you'd normally do. Look at Keith Richards. I think the only exception to this rule is alcohol which really does make people aggressive.

The real problem with power is that people who have it very quickly start to think the power emanates from them, instead of it being what it actually is, a thing separate from them that ebbs and flows, which they have managed to temporarily take control of, but which will inevitably desert them sooner or later. In other words, they start to think the sun shines out of their own arse. It's really scary to see how quickly almost anyone with power starts to believe they are special and superior, set above the common herd and therefore entitled to do whatever they like to said herd.

PS I'm not trying to condone anything or justify anything. I'm just saying that extrapolating from what people do when they feel they have to defend themselves against threats in order to imagine how people would behave if they didn't have to defend themselves against threats doesn't really make much sense. When people talk as if a dictatorship were a bad thing per se, without examining why it's bad and acknowledging that, at least theoretically, a situation could exist where it wasn't bad, then they haven't really done their critical thinking. In the democracies of Ancient Greece, it was believed that slavery was the natural condition of foreigners and that the greatest glory of a woman was never to have her name spoken in public either for good or ill. Meanwhile, over in the absolute monarchy of the Persian Empire, slavery had been all but abolished and multiculturalism was encouraged.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...You do realize that such "power" comes at the expense of the freedom and well-being of the people said power is exercised over, right?

Again, by its very nature, such power is exploitative and unjustified. Look at the people of the slums, Wutai, Junon, and Nibelheim. Shinra's "peace" came at a high blood price and even then it still wasn't enough.

The real problem with power is that people who have it very quickly start to think the power emanates from them, instead of it being what it actually is, a thing separate from them that ebbs and flows, which they have managed to temporarily take control of, but which will inevitably desert them sooner or later. In other words, they start to think the sun shines out of their own arse. It's really scary to see how quickly almost anyone with power starts to believe they are special and superior, set above the common herd and therefore entitled to do whatever they like to said herd.

If someone started thinking like that, then they probably aren't going to be an absolute ruler or dictator. That would imply they would understand that power comes from the will of the governed and is not innate or inherited.

Shinra believes power is theirs to control and take at will. Because they're justified due to their technological, scientific and military might. Shinra justifies their power because it's theirs to take and no one can stop them. And if anyone tries, they're dealt with.

PS I'm not trying to condone anything or justify anything. I'm just saying that extrapolating from what people do when they feel they have to defend themselves against threats in order to imagine how people would behave if they didn't have to defend themselves against threats doesn't really make much sense. When people talk as if a dictatorship were a bad thing per se, without examining why it's bad and acknowledging that, at least theoretically, a situation could exist where it wasn't bad, then they haven't really done their critical thinking. In the democracies of Ancient Greece, it was believed that slavery was the natural condition of foreigners and that the greatest glory of a woman was never to have her name spoken in public either for good or ill. Meanwhile, over in the absolute monarchy of the Persian Empire, slavery had been all but abolished and multiculturalism was encouraged.

But you're acting like such power plays and tyranny are done as a reaction to a threat. That's not the case at all. It's done solely for the sake of power acquisition.

Shinra didn't take over the world over a perceived threat. They took it over because they could. On Gaia, there were no governmental structural restraints for a corporation to wield such overwhelming power, therefore the sole corporation that had it... Did it. And upon seizing power, they entrenched their power. First through economic strong arming, and then military oppression. There was no "threat", except the threat of losing said power from people wishing to take it back.

A dictatorship is a "bad thing" because it lends itself to abuse of power, and 99.99999% of the time, that happens. Because most people who get involved in politics, specifically the politics where unilateral, absolute control is the end point, are most likely to have some range of sociopathic behaviors that will result in corruption and oppression. It draws people of that sort because of the allure of absolute control.

You pointing out one good point of the Persian Empire doesn't negate the brutal oppression and violence it inflicted on those who rebelled and did not wish to have the yolk of conquest thrust upon them. That happened. To even acquire such power, requires the oppression and conquest of other people. So there's no justification or rationalization for such types of behaviors morally and ethically speaking.

You want a situation where it isn't bad? Try Final Fantasy and the Kingdom of Cornelia. Or Final Fantasy IV, with the Kingdom of Fabul or Baron. A complete idealized fantasy world where such exploitative acts are never shown to have existed and the ruler of said kingdoms were just freely given the power...

...Oops, nevermind. That's not true either! The Kingdom of Baron suddenly went evil and started attacking other city-states for their crystals after The King of Baron went nuts and desired their power. Or rather, because Golbez and the Four Fiends took over the throne. However it illustrates another reason consolidating power at a single individual is not a good idea. If said nexus of power is ever deposed, dispatched or taken over, there are absolutely no safeguards to secure said power from outside malevolent influence! A righteous kingdom of good can be easily turned to evil just because an usurper gets in the driver's seat.

It's just inherently a bad idea to usually give one power, power over everybody everywhere.

 

[Clement Rage]

If they take focus from Sephiroth, does old President Shinra get deposed at all?

Rufus says he's different, but he mostly uses his old man's playbook. His speech amounts to 'no more worrying about good publicity', but then he holds a giant flashy inauguration parade and his response to Meteor is to execute a scapegoat to make Shinra look good. When he gets hold of Hojo, he brings him along on his airship and has him on a loose enough leash that he can slip free and take over the cannon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Mako, I doubt you're bringing up anything Lic doesn't know already. This is just an academic exercise, not a defense of any particular regime or its policies. =P

Lic didn't suggest that Shin-Ra became a dictatorship in response to perceived external threats. She's pondering whether a dictatorship might theoretically be able to conduct itself as a positive construct if it didn't perceive any notions of external threat.

I find it an interesting question, but my own guess is probably not. As you pointed out, it's possible someone with tyrannical intent would come into power even if the apparatus weren't initially being abused.

And with the possibility of someone from within aspiring to that power, fear of external threats could turn inward.

It probably is an inherently flawed design.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, I doubt you're bringing up anything Lic doesn't know already. This is just an academic exercise, not a defense of any particular regime or its policies. =P

I know, and I'm academically showing that it's just not really likely at all.

Lic didn't suggest that Shin-Ra became a dictatorship in response to perceived external threats. She's pondering whether a dictatorship might theoretically be able to conduct itself as a positive construct if it didn't perceive any notions of external threat.

Theoretically that's a faulty premise in and of itself because dictatorships don't become oppressive or abusive just due to perceived external threats. That postulation assumes a level of logicality, benevolence and level-headedness that's extremely rare even in the most idealistic of settings. Realistically and fantastically, a tyrant will abuse power not just because of externalized threat but also internal and even no threat at all. The power itself is the catalyst and cause of abuse. Because well, human nature.

You would only be able to really trust such power to a god or some sort of non-human higher ordered entity and even that is no assurance.

I find it an interesting question, but my own guess is probably not. As you pointed out, it's possible someone with tyrannical intent would come into power even if the apparatus weren't initially being abused.

And with the possibility of someone from within aspiring to that power, fear of external threats could turn inward.

It probably is an inherently flawed design.

It definitely is, even in the most optimal of settings.

The Kingdom of Lucis in FFXV is a benevolent monarchy where the King of Lucis is literally given divine mandate to rule and protect the crystal of the planet, and even that arrangement is fraught with its own faults and issues. King Regis ruled Insomnia with a good heart and the best of his ability and it had its failures, not even necessarily his own fault.

And having the defense of an entire country rest on one man's magical wall along with the source of all magic as well? Not a wise or optimal idea, either.

Power consolidated at a single source makes it easy to abuse, easy to usurp, and easy to just outright destroy.