Rufus vs. Cloud fight in a remake?

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ever since Advent Children came out, it's been hard to see Rufus battling Cloud with any degree of success. While the original game certainly included elements sufficient to indicate that Cloud was beyond normal humans, the kind of shit we've seen Zack do in Crisis Core and Last Order tells me that shotgun shouldn't have meant diddly dick to Cloud.

So, how would they go about this in a remake? How would they make it plausible that Cloud didn't just take Rufus out in a couple of seconds?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, Zack died by being turned into Swiss cheese via bullet, and a sword stab took Sephiroth out, so Cloud still has to worry about mortal wounds such as what a shotgun, of all things can do (which can still turn him into a bloody mist if Rufus got a really good shot in). So Rufus still has the offensive capability if nothing else. My concern is how they're going to make it so that Cloud doesn't just chop his shotgun in half.

However, Rufus doesn't exactly seem to be a normal guy either. Firing a shotgun one handed without it breaking every bone in your wrist, then jumping on a helicopter one handed while it flies away isn't exactly normal human stuff!

 

[NoenGaruth]

To me, its probable that Rufus can move around more (since hes not injured like in AC), so he'd do stuff like side rolls and maybe even his shotgun would have a knockback effect, not to mention he has dark nation which would be alot more agile and keep you busy while Rufus shoots the crap out of you.

Another thought I had while playing Tekken 6 Boss fights is having flunkies show up during the battle, like at random intervals ShinRa troopers will come running from inside the building and start attacking you, so you gotta worry about them too. Personally I think there's plenty of ways to make Rufus' boss battle in a remake just as badass as the original turn based one.

 

[Celes Chere]

More importantly, would Rufus still have his panther at his side? Because that was awesome and made me laugh.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, Zack died by being turned into Swiss cheese via bullet, and a sword stab took Sephiroth out, so Cloud still has to worry about mortal wounds such as what a shotgun, of all things can do (which can still turn him into a bloody mist if Rufus got a really good shot in). So Rufus still has the offensive capability if nothing else.

Well, yes, but if Zack can dodge bullets, Cloud should at least be able to run faster than someone wielding a shotgun can aim, even if he can't dodge the spray of pellets while close to Rufus.

My concern is how they're going to make it so that Cloud doesn't just chop his shotgun in half.

That's what inspired me to make the thread, actually.

However, Rufus doesn't exactly seem to be a normal guy either. Firing a shotgun one handed without it breaking every bone in your wrist, then jumping on a helicopter one handed while it flies away isn't exactly normal human stuff!

I definitely agree. That's part of the reason I always liked the theory that he'd gotten some mako infusion at some point, though Case of Shin-Ra makes that seem impossible.

Anyway, yes, Rufus is definitely far beyond normal people.

To me, its probable that Rufus can move around more (since hes not injured like in AC), so he'd do stuff like side rolls and maybe even his shotgun would have a knockback effect, not to mention he has dark nation which would be alot more agile and keep you busy while Rufus shoots the crap out of you.

Another thought I had while playing Tekken 6 Boss fights is having flunkies show up during the battle, like at random intervals ShinRa troopers will come running from inside the building and start attacking you, so you gotta worry about them too. Personally I think there's plenty of ways to make Rufus' boss battle in a remake just as badass as the original turn based one.

Good ideas and observations.

More importantly, would Rufus still have his panther at his side? Because that was awesome and made me laugh.

There's no more egregious decision they could make than to not include Dark Nation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Considering how Cloud owned Reno and Rude in AC with no effort at all, how would they make the fight on top of the pillar plausible either? [Although I must say, expecting anything in FFVII to be plausible takes a lot of the fun out of it.]

They could:
- write in more about how Cloud has to rediscover himself (and work out what he's really fighting for) in order to rediscover his full powers?
- make the effect of 'the power of love' most explicit? At the time when he's fighting Rufus he's still trying to be a bit of a hard bastard who won't own up to how much he cares for people
- give Dark Nation more powers?
- I really like the flunkie idea, too. Seems odd that Shinra minions would just let their brand new President risk himself like that.

 

[NoenGaruth]

Considering how Cloud owned Reno and Rude in AC with no effort at all, how would they make the fight on top of the pillar plausible either? [Although I must say, expecting anything in FFVII to be plausible takes a lot of the fun out of it.] .

quite simple, at the beginning of FF7 Cloud isn't anywhere near as strong as he was in AC, after all, he's pretty much just a nobody wearing a SOLDIER uniform, and his strength grows as the game progresses. So it's not a stretch that Reno would pose a challenge to AVALANCHE on the Pillar.

 

[Glaurung]

So, how would they go about this in a remake? How would they make it plausible that Cloud didn't just take Rufus out in a couple of seconds?

Maybe repeating the turn-based combat system?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

quite simple, at the beginning of FF7 Cloud isn't anywhere near as strong as he was in AC, after all, he's pretty much just a nobody wearing a SOLDIER uniform, and his strength grows as the game progresses. So it's not a stretch that Reno would pose a challenge to AVALANCHE on the Pillar.

ding ding ding

 

[Ghost X]

I don't know why we don't view the Rufus battle as just a plot device that does not reflect reality. I mean, later on you have a full party of 3 people taking on Palmer. Palmer is most likely not that strong.

 

[Gale]

The presentation is different, though. When confronted by Rufus, Cloud makes a point to send the rest of Avalanche away to fight him alone. Their one-on-one confrontation is part of the plot, Palmer's shennanigans are not nearly as important.

 

[Ghost X]

I would argue Palmer's shenanigans are still a part of the plot, there is no way you can avoid the battle. Its not an optional extra. Lol.

 

[Restless]

I wouldn't mind the flunky idea, and it would actually make sense. Rufus would probably be given some sort of agility, as well as rolls and whatever, while Dark Nation darts around attacking and distracting you. That's if it's not turn-based. If it is turn-based (and the players can't move), then Rufus will probably just be pretty strong and have the ability to dodge.

I'd pay to get a reaction out of him when Dark Nation is defeated/killed, though

I would argue Palmer's shenanigans are still a part of the plot, there is no way you can avoid the battle. Its not an optional extra. Lol.

I think Gale meant that Palmer wasn't a significant character or plot point, nor was his fight really even supposed to be taken seriously. Palmer himself is pretty useless as far as the entire series is concerned; his personality is incompetent, he hasn't appeared in any other Comp. title to date (well...he was referenced once in Case of Shinra), and we don't even know if he lived or died. So, they're still part of the plot, but definitely not important

 

[Cat Rage Room]

and we don't even know if he lived or died.

He's alive.

 

[Loxetta]

.......Shinra mooks barging in on the Cloud vs Rufus fight would offend me. It would really detract from Rufus' entrance.

But anyway, they'd probably justify the Cloud vs Rufus the same way a normal human like Tifa was able to hold her own against a powered up being like Loz, and normal people like Cid and Yuffie to do things like run up the side of a building, free-fall from an airship and land on their feet, then go off and fight a gigantic doom dragon -- training, in combination with natural aptitudes, can make a normal human pretty badass. Rufus might not be quite on par with Cloud, even n00b!Cloud, but that doesn't mean he'd be a pushover.

There's also the glimpses of Rufus' eyes in AC/C. There are at least one or two close-up shots, and he appears to have mako eyes like Cloud and SOLDIERs, along with Denzel. For Denzel it can be explained by being in Midgar when Meteor was destroyed by the Lifestream and he gets an eyeful in his Case of, but if I remember right, Rufus was in Kalm when the Lifestream thing happened (in his Case of). So it's possible he was exposed to mako previously.

 

[Ghost X]

Whose got a large picture of Rufus? I want to see his eyes. But anyways, I point out Palmer because I don't think Square bothered with how realistic a battle is. Rufus was just a boss fight, so they had to pump up his HP a bit for game play purposes. The other characters in the game are exposed to gunfire, magic of all forms of elements, crushed by enemy weapons, and even trodden on etc. They do not get permanent scars from these battles because its just gameplay, which has little to do with the narrative side of things.

 

[Loxetta]

Whose got a large picture of Rufus? I want to see his eyes.

I'll try to grab some screencaps.

 

[Restless]

He's alive.

Really? I couldn't remember anything specifying it. Or is it just assume alive until given definite proof he's dead (which even then is up to debate, considering Tseng and Rufus)? His character just kinda fell away, without any real conclusion, which was strange for a Shinra exec. Not that I particularly cared or anything, just seemed like it wouldn't not be plausible if he ended up dead by the end of the game. He or his role obviously wasn't important enough to be brought back for any others games. In a remake, I'd hope they do something about his future, just to clear it up.

But anyways, I point out Palmer because I don't think Square bothered with how realistic a battle is. Rufus was just a boss fight, so they had to pump up his HP a bit for game play purposes. The other characters in the game are exposed to gunfire, magic of all forms of elements, crushed by enemy weapons, and even trodden on etc. They do not get permanent scars from these battles because its just gameplay, which has little to do with the narrative side of things.

Oh, I get it. Yeah, I agree...I think the sequels/prequels were more on the realistic side as far as battles went (well...realistic for FF). Characters were being turned into frogs in the original. I think part of it had to do with the blocky looks and all, though. While it wouldn't look as strange then, having a guy just sorta stand there shooting once in a while while you bombard him with blows from an over-sized sword might not look too good. Especially because, knowing his accomplishments through other games/novellas, we're able to see that he ain't just a normal guy. And to add on to all that, his fight isn't a goofy one where the player just relaxes and knows that the HP is high just 'cause.

 

[Loxetta]

I'll try to grab some screencaps.

Spoiler: Rufus' right eye, from the scene between him and Kadaj at Healin' with Reno and Rude beat up on the floor.

They're both separate, unedited screencaps.

I'd comb the movie for more but, watching Kadaj be a twat in slomo warrants a drink.

Also, for a slightly better lit comparison ganked off Google image search,

Spoiler: Cloud's unevenly squinting eyes

 

[Ghost X]

S'pose they're the same colour. Blue on the outside, green on the inside. You'd think if Rufus was superhuman, it'd be mentioned somewhere already in the story though, no?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Really? I couldn't remember anything specifying it. Or is it just assume alive until given definite proof he's dead (which even then is up to debate, considering Tseng and Rufus)? His character just kinda fell away, without any real conclusion, which was strange for a Shinra exec. Not that I particularly cared or anything, just seemed like it wouldn't not be plausible if he ended up dead by the end of the game. He or his role obviously wasn't important enough to be brought back for any others games. In a remake, I'd hope they do something about his future, just to clear it up.

If you're wondering if he survived the battle in Rocket Town, he did; he addresses Cid during the Rocket launch later in the game. There's no real reason he wouldn't survive the fall of Shinra, given that he's just an unimportant old man.

 

[Loxetta]

S'pose they're the same colour. Blue on the outside, green on the inside. You'd think if Rufus was superhuman, it'd be mentioned somewhere already in the story though, no?

You'd think. But again, using Denzel as an example, a person with mako eyes isn't necessarily superhuman like a SOLDIER, because Denzel certainly isn't. From my understanding, and anyone is welcome to correct me, SOLDIER abilities are the result of a more prolonged exposure to mako than just what Denzel experienced (and of course, Jenova cells). And mako eyes can be cause by a relatively small run-in with Lifestream.

If Rufus has mako eyes, he was exposed to mako, period. It's a question of when and how much. It would explain a lot about Rufus abilities in FFVII if it happened before then and was a moderate amount. Not much about Rufus is expanded on in the timeline prior to Before Crisis, and he was power hungry even back then. It wouldn't be a stretch for him to have taken a mako treatment or two for the strength and other benefits it provides.

But it's all just a theory. I simply find it very odd and coincidental for Rufus to have eyes the same color as Cloud and Zack etc., considering the stress that the narrative often puts on mako eyes being a telltale sign of a SOLDIER/someone beyond normal.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I thought the theory that Rufus has mako infusion was dropped a long time ago since Cid has the same eyes? Though I suppose you could explain that away due to him having gone to the bottom of the Northern Crater -- the same way you can explain the characters being so physically powerful -- but, then, the rest of the team would need to demonstrate the same eyes.

I agree with Ghost X -- if Rufus was supposed to be superhuman, then something like Case of Shin-Ra would have made that clear.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Rufus isn't superhuman.

That would imply he was human. He's a robot. Why else would he not bleed or cry?

Seriously, Rufus probably isn't superhuman, but an enhanced human or badass normal can make an effective fight against Cloud, if they're quick enough and using a gun.