Sector 7: The President's Motives

[CameoAmalthea]

A few days ago, I made a post my blog, positing my view on President Shinra's rational for dropping the plate in light of the events of Before Crisis. A discussion spawned from that on tumblr through reblogs, but I think a form might be the best place for this debate (since reblogs can get confusing).

THE DESTRUCTION OF SECTION 7: SHINRA’S PERSPECTIVE

An analysis in light of the events of Before Crisis (warning contains BC spoilers).
The purpose of this post is to explain the destruction of Sector 7 from ShinRa’s perspective. It is not meant to condone what happened or excuse the actions of those involved (President Shinra and all acting board members, including Reeve though he did not support it and excluding Rufus because he had no matter and nothing to do with it). Dropping the plate was inexcusable and unforgivable, but there were reasons behind it and it my purpose to explore those reasons.
Prior to the events of the original game the original incarnation of AVALANCHE terrorized Shinra for years. They attempted to blow up reactors (which was foiled by the Turks), attempted to hijack the Junon Canon and use it to destroy all of Midgar, performed human experimentation to create their own super soldiers, attempted to kidnap Shinra personnel, attempted to assassinate the President, sabotaged the Rocket launch, blew up the reactor in Corel and tried to destroy all life on the planet. These are just what I can think of off the top of my head. Athough I’m not sure if President Shinra knew the full extent of AVALANCHE’s deed, it is suffice to say he knew enough to see any group baring the name AVALANCHE as a serious threat.

Immediately prior to the events of the original game, the President had determined that the Turks were untrustworthy traitors and was going to have them executed. The Turks were spared because Rufus Shinra intervened on their behalf argued that they had proven their loyalty by executing their former commander, Veld and long lost daughter/AVALANCHE leader Elfe. While the President agreed with Rufus, he had no reason to trust him. Rufus has spent the first half of his Vice Presidency secretly aiding AVALANCHE and the second half in Turk custody following his arrest; the President had no reason to trust him or the Turks. (Indeed, Rufus was in fact lying; he’d faked the deaths of Veld, Elf, and eleven other Turks. While the President did not suspect this, if he was at all smart, he wouldn’t have been quick to trust Rufus of the Turks.).

For President Shinra Sector 7 kills two birds with one stone. He needs to get rid of AVALANCHE and discourage a future resurgence of the group, and he wants to test the Turk’s loyalty.

By dropping the plate and framing AVALANCHE for it, the President discourages copycats by making AVALANCHE look like mass murders. The general populace did not know the full extent of the damage the previous incarnation of AVALANCHE had done/attempted to do (ShinRa’s modus operandi up to this point had been to cover up failures and close calls. The President spent a lot of money to insure the populace thought ShinRa would always protect them from terrorists, it looked perfect from the outside). Or in any event, they didn’t know enough to discourage copycats from forming new AVALANCHE cells and adopting their tactics. By framing AVALANCHE for the crime of dropping Sector 7, the President hoped to turn public sentiment against them so that no group would take that name ever again and no civilian would hire them. It wasn’t simply a matter of destroying one terrorist cell; it was about destroying the ideal.
So he orders the plate to be dropped, and orders the Turks to do it, because, as mentioned he wants to test the Turks. While he’s at it he orders Tseng to bring in Aerith. Something Tseng had been avoiding for years.

President Shinra knows that the Turks do not like civilian casualties and probably suspects Tseng has misgivings about turning over Aerith. If the Turks refuse or try to flee, it proves his suspicions, he has them executed, and he gets to hang that over his son. Rufus also loses potential assets in case he’s still plotting a cue. In some ways, this is a move in a chess match the President is playing with his son.

The Turks are thus stuck in a very difficult situation. Rufus saved their lives, the life of their former leader who had been a father to them, and the lives of their fellow Turks who were also like family. They owe Rufus their loyalty. They know if they betray Shinra they’ll be killed and even if they manage to escape their betrayal will hurt Rufus’s position. They will also be unable to protect him if they’re killed or in hiding, and they are sworn to him by love and honor.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

As the debate on tumblr continued, it was questioned whether President Shinra's actions were motivated by fear and irrational insecurity, to which Licoriceallsorts responded that the President had never seemed afraid of anything, and had only been afraid for Rufus's safety.

Read Whole Debate Here http://fuckyeahshinra.tumblr.com/post/76066151268/more-reglissenoire-hi-all-since-cam-asked

I also came the conclusion that President Shinra was a man who was in general, motivated by pride and if he was ever afraid of anything, he was afraid of losing face, or being slighted.

Spoiler: President Shinra is ruled by his own pride

I never interpreted the President as “a man who is capable of feeling afraid for the safety of his loved ones” or got the sense that the President was worried about Rufus.

“The only time he shows any sign of weakness or uncertainty is when Rufus ‘skypes’ him from Midgar; the Old Man seems to be complaining that Rufus should get in touch more often. And the only time he really seems afraid is when he realizes that Avalanche have aimed the Junon Cannon at Midgar, where Rufus is.”

I never picked that up.

When I read this line:

President Shinra
Oh. Rufus. It’s been a while since I’ve heard from you.
I read it as: “Why are you bothering me? Or you better have a good reason for calling”
Of course, there’s no proof either way as to how the line should be read, but it’s funny that we each read it in entirely different ways.
However, I read President Shinra’s alarm here as more to do with his pride than with his love, and there’s no indication he’s concerned for Rufus.
President Shinra
What did you say?! They think they can do whatever they want…
President Shinra
Those annoying vermin… I won’t let them have their way! There’s no way they can take my Midgar away from me!

I read these lines as indignation that anyone would dare to mess with his stuff. He says “my Midgar” not “my son’. There’s no “Rufus is in Midgar” Cue parental panic, but rather a man whose pride is in the line if these terrorists get away with this.

“I just don’t like other people touching my things!”

Midgar is his sand castle, he can kick it down himself if he chooses, but he won’t let anyone else near it. When he calls out Sephiroth, it seems almost petty, and vindictive. How dare they shoot him, he’ll show them.

President Shinra
I’m… not dead yet. I’ll… get them… Sephiroth… Call Sephiroth!

Even in Corel when Rufus’s life was very much in danger, President Shinra did not show any concern for his son and I think that’s telling.

President Shinra
Damn that boy… stop him before he does something stupid.
Veld
Yes, sir.
President Shinra

Things have gotten serious. Take the secret emergency countermeasures. The Shin-Ra Company isn’t going to fall to some impudent whelp! Do what you have to in order to guard the company!

In Before Crisis, President Shinra’s concern is for The ShinRa Company and Midgar, not his son his but his company and his city.

I’m not trying to argue that President Shinra doesn’t care about Rufus, Licorice has sold me on the idea that he does care for Rufus in his way and the fact his passcode is his son’s birthday shows that he cares. However, I don’t think President Shinra is that loving or vulnerable.

Rufus is his heir, a son to be his legacy and carry on his name, who will hopefully prove himself worthy. President Shinra values that, but Rufus isn’t his only legacy, he has his Company, his Midgar! And if Rufus is worthy, then the boy should be able to take care of himself, it’s ShinRa and Midgar that need the President’s concern.

President Shinra is a man driven by pride.

Pride in himself, in his things, and in his power. Midgar is his and he can do whatever he pleases with it, which is why causalities don’t give him pause.

At his core, I see President Shinra as very petty and vindictive, and as Licorice said, arrogant. Yes, AVALANCHE is a threat, but they’re still nothing but vermin. He’s not afraid of them, even when they shoot him and are going to destroy Midgar with the canon, he’s not afraid he’s furious at the affront to his pride.

In the end, it’s President Shinra’s pride that he values most. He is a man who cannot stand to lose. A man who would burn his own city to the ground rather than face the humiliation of losing it to someone else. A man who thinks escape routes are for losers because that he doesn’t use the escape route when Sephiroth goes on a rampage. He dies at his desk rather than pushing that button, because for him it’s better to die standing than flee like a coward.

While Rufus has his father’s bravery, his sense of invincibility, he is pragmatic enough to leave a fight he can’t win. I don’t think the President’s pride would ever let him back down. In short, I agree with Lic’s interpretation and think that his anger and annoyance is rooted in pride. If President Shinra is insecure, it’s only insofar has he can’t stand to have his pride wounded. He’s not afraid of losing power, he’s afraid of losing face, which is why AVALANCHE mark II does bother him. Their success irks his pride, they’ve touched his things, and they need to be crushed, preferably in a way that will forever tarnish the name.

So I will also add that I think the destruction of Sector 7 was the act of a man who was not afraid of AVALANCHE per se, but afraid of any insult to his power or authority.

 

[Roger]

The purpose of this post is to explain the destruction of Sector 7 from ShinRa’s perspective. It is not meant to condone what happened or excuse the actions of those involved (President Shinra and all acting board members, including Reeve though he did not support it and excluding Rufus because he had no matter and nothing to do with it). Dropping the plate was inexcusable and unforgivable, but there were reasons behind it and it my purpose to explore those reasons.

The Turks are thus stuck in a very difficult situation. Rufus saved their lives, the life of their former leader who had been a father to them, and the lives of their fellow Turks who were also like family. They owe Rufus their loyalty. They know if they betray Shinra they’ll be killed and even if they manage to escape their betrayal will hurt Rufus’s position. They will also be unable to protect him if they’re killed or in hiding, and they are sworn to him by love and honor.

Uh, it sure SOUNDS like you are trying to absolve the guilty parties by saying they were under threats of death that the original game did not at all imply.

 

[Clement Rage]

What Minato said. In the actual game, there is every indication that Reno and Tseng are genuinely enjoying themselves while knocking the pillar. And what makes you think they're extremely opposed to civilian casualties, when one of their central reasons to exist is kidnapping innocent civilians? The Turks expressly exist to do the things that the ordinary Shinra branches have too many morals for. They get leery about bringing Nibelheim civilians to Hojo, but they don't express regret once while kidnapping innocent people in Costa del Sol, or when leaving allies to freeze to death on the great glacier.

excluding Rufus because he had no matter and nothing to do with it

He wasn't on the board at the time, but he still seemed to have full access to information in his exile, he could probably blackmail the Prez into not going ahead , like Veld did when Heidegger controlled the Turks. Maybe that's true, but you can't state that as a fact.

hey know if they betray Shinra they’ll be killed and even if they manage to escape their betrayal will hurt Rufus’s position.

See, the problem with that is that the Turks are most likely very good at disappearing. Veld manages it for years, with a price on his head, and only gets caught because he's still close to AVALANCHE. It might hurt Rufus' position, but hardly any more than trying to assassinate his Dad several times, blowing up reactors, and funding a terrorist group bent on omnicide.

If President Shinra wanted Rufus dead, he'd be dead. He deliberately let him off the hook after everything he's done, he's unlikely to change his mind now.

How dare they shoot him, he’ll show them.

Um, are you implying that holding a grudge over being shot and left for dead is unreasonable?

Damn that boy… stop him before he does something stupid.

That can be read as parental concern or concern for the company.

man who thinks escape routes are for losers because that he doesn’t use the escape route when Sephiroth goes on a rampage.

Does he have time to? Sephiroth's rampage goes so unremarked that Cloud and Co don't even wake up, it's completely possible that he didn't know Sephiroth was in the building until he walked into his office, and once you're in the same room as Sephy, all the trapdoors in the world don't matter because you'll be cut down before you can get to them.

Regarding the comments of the blog on Deepground, I think people are being too hard on it. President Shinra is not shy of spending money on personal project, I can see it happening. It could be a bad decision, but it's one I can see the Prez making. SOLDIER became hugely effective, so he wanted to try push the limits of that. Then it got out of control, and he had to keep feeding it or face an en masse rebellion that couldn't be quashed quietly.

Besides, it's just one of those things you have to accept for the game to make sense, like why the Umbrella corporation keeps playing with a virus that is of no conceivable advantage to them whatsoever and keeps destroying their research facilities, or why people keep building expensive Metal Gears when conventional weaponry can achieve the same goals.

I broadly agree with your reasons for President Shinra dropping the Plate, but you are going out of your way to make the Turks look as good as possible.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Well... I think this is a case of new canon information taking precedence over previous canon information... or in this case, where there isn't any information. And in this case the new information doesn't even really retcon any previous information.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Uh, it sure SOUNDS like you are trying to absolve the guilty parties by saying they were under threats of death that the original game did not at all imply.

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the original game but to discuss Sector 7 in light of the entire Compilation, including the events of Before Crisis which I am taking as canon for the purpose of this discussion, and the Turks' characterization in the rest of the compilation.

The reason I put this thread in the General Compilation Section is because it deals with an event from the original game, but I'm looking at it in light of Before Crisis. Before Crisis does imply that the Turks would be under threat of death if they disobeyed orders considering the President was going to execute them right before Cloud and Co's first attack on the reactor.

What Minato said. In the actual game, there is every indication that Reno and Tseng are genuinely enjoying themselves while knocking the pillar. And what makes you think they're extremely opposed to civilian casualties, when one of their central reasons to exist is kidnapping innocent civilians? The Turks expressly exist to do the things that the ordinary Shinra branches have too many morals for. They get leery about bringing Nibelheim civilians to Hojo, but they don't express regret once while kidnapping innocent people in Costa del Sol, or when leaving allies to freeze to death on the great glacier.

In “Case of Shinra” it is stated that Tseng acts as evil as possible in front of Aerith for Aerith’s benefit, because Tseng thinks “evil should look like evil.” He doesn’t want to tell her “I love you but I have to do this” he wants to make it easy for her to hate him. He doesn’t want her to feel betrayed on conflicted, but to be the evil person she’d always expected someone from Shinra to be.

Reno’s behavior is never addressed in canon, but is markedly different during Sector 7 than during the rest of the compilation. Trying to take the characterization of the entire compilation as canon, is there any indication that Reno is the sort of person that would genuinely enjoy that or does his behavior in Sector 7 see out of character as compared to every other action.

The Turks seem like the equivalent of an intelligence agency, which entails kidnapping and immoral behavior but I would not say that’s the one of the central reasons for an intelligence agency to exist. Rather, kidnapping and immoral choices are a means to an end, I’d say their central purpose is protecting the President and other high ranking executives and combatting terrorism.

What I got from Before Crisis was that the Turk did immoral things for what they believed to be the greater good, but would help people when possible. Stopping to foil individual muggings, risking their mission to save lives when possible, caring when lives were in danger.

If we took the narrative of Before Crisis and continued it through the original game, from the Turks point of view, would it be consistent with the narrative theme that they enjoyed what they were doing?

I do think the Turks are capable of dropping the plate. I think if it were necessary to save lives they would do it, but I don’t think dropping the plate was necessary and that the Turks would have preferred a method of dealing with the terrorists that didn’t destroy one of Shinra’s own cities. Because the Turks do seem to value individual life in the rest of the compilation.

He wasn't on the board at the time, but he still seemed to have full access to information in his exile, he could probably blackmail the Prez into not going ahead , like Veld did when Heidegger controlled the Turks. Maybe that's true, but you can't state that as a fact.

I wanted to be clear that Rufus did not take part in the decision as I’ve seen many people in the fandom automatically equate the President’s actions with Rufus’s actions. What we know is that Rufus wasn’t there at the time. I wasn’t sure that the plan was ever noted anywhere and was probably kept fairly tight-lipped to prevent leaks. I think leaks that did occur were word of mouth. It doesn’t seem like the sort of thing you’d want records of that could fall into the wrong hands.

See, the problem with that is that the Turks are most likely very good at disappearing. Veld manages it for years, with a price on his head, and only gets caught because he's still close to AVALANCHE.

I was under the impression that the President put the Turks in charge of finding Veld and they weren’t really trying.

It might hurt Rufus' position, but hardly any more than trying to assassinate his Dad several times, blowing up reactors, and funding a terrorist group bent on omnicide.

If President Shinra wanted Rufus dead, he'd be dead. He deliberately let him off the hook after everything he's done, he's unlikely to change his mind now.

President Shinra wants Rufus to inherit the company and has let him get away with everything up to this point, but there’s no guarantee that he won’t change his mind, that someone else won’t attempt to take Rufus out. Rufus’s subversive activities in a twisted way proved his worth to the President because they show the Rufus is smart, driven and ruthless which the President may see as admirable qualities in an heir. However, I’m not sure that Rufus could continue to push his luck indefinitely. If the Turks betrayed Shinra right after Rufus vouched for them, it makes Rufus look incompetent.

But you’re right I am reading the narrative in such a way that makes carrying out Sector 7 a hard choice for the Turks. A choice between

A) Carry out horrible orders
B) Refuse and be executed
C) Abandon your position and duty to Rufus after swearing loyalty to him

However, I feel that this is the choice Before Crisis sets up, and I feel like this interpretation is thematically consistent with Before Crisis. Although it’s also possible the Turks thought that dropping the plate was necessary to stop AVALANCHE from doing any more damage, but I think an anti-terrorism unit would have seen other possible solutions and preferred that to one with so many civilian casualties.

Um, are you implying that holding a grudge over being shot and left for dead is unreasonable?

No, I’m implying that the President wasn’t afraid of AVALANCHE, but was instead angry at the insult. This is in contrast to the view that the President was driven by insecurity and fear, crying for Sephiroth to save him or for the plate to be dropped because he’s so scared. I think that the President isn’t motivated by fear, but by vindictiveness.

That can be read as parental concern or concern for the company.

Yes, it can, but it is followed by the line “Things have gotten serious. Take the secret emergency countermeasures. The Shin-Ra Company isn’t going to fall to some impudent whelp! Do what you have to in order to guard the company!”

This implies his concern is that Rufus will do something stupid to jeopardize ShinRa, rather than concern for Rufus’s life. My argument is that I do not see a lot of canon examples of President Shinra being afraid of anything, including of losing Rufus. The pattern I see if a man who is angry at having his life’s work threatened or being slighted.

Does he have time to? Sephiroth's rampage goes so unremarked that Cloud and Co don't even wake up, it's completely possible that he didn't know Sephiroth was in the building until he walked into his office, and once you're in the same room as Sephy, all the trapdoors in the world don't matter because you'll be cut down before you can get to them.

Good point. You’d think there’d have been an alarm or something or screaming. My assumption was that the cell block was sound proof because mass slaughter seems like something that wouldn’t happen quietly.

I broadly agree with your reasons for President Shinra dropping the Plate, but you are going out of your way to make the Turks look as good as possible.

True. I suppose I’m starting with the assumption that “Before Crisis” and “Case of Shinra” are canon and show the Turks to be ‘good people who do/have done bad things” So I try to conceive Sector 7 fit in a way that fits that narrative. The purpose of this was to see how Sector 7 fits into the narrative of Before Crisis which is a story of people with good intentions doing bad things.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, there's simply no other way to read the Compilation as a whole. The Turks did not enjoy what happened to Sector 7, and that includes Reno. He was one of the most vocally opposed to what happened at Nibelheim, and on no less than three occasions after the fall of Sector 7, he -- or a narrator's voice highlighting his feelings -- has spoken of guilt and redemption.

It's fairly obvious what it's referring to. The Turks are not malicious bastards. They are not sadistic. They would not have been okay with what happened to Sector 7, and as the one who pressed the button, Reno's regret would be the greatest.

Keep in mind, too, that over and above what Cameo has mentioned, there's a genuine possibility they convinced themselves they were doing what was necessary for the greater good at the time. For each other, for honor and for Rufus, yes, but also because this new incarnation of AVALANCHE had already blown up a reactor and caused a number of civilian deaths in doing so. Given what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, they probably concluded that the smaller, less devastating explosion at the no. 5 reactor was a fluke.

It's not hard to imagine that everyone involved -- including President Shinra, for whom no excuses can ever be made -- was genuinely pushed to the point of desperation. The difference is that the Turks had qualms about doing such things and would feel bad about it later when the magic of convincing themselves it was what they had to do wore off.

There's a reason we keep being told that Reno has regrets. This isn't accidental writing. Nojima has written that three times deliberately. He expects us to be able to read between the lines.

None of this is to make excuses for what happened, because he isn't making excuses for himself. It's just getting the facts straight.

 

[Roger]

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the original game but to discuss Sector 7 in light of the entire Compilation, including the events of Before Crisis which I am taking as canon for the purpose of this discussion, and the Turks' characterization in the rest of the compilation.

I'm not saying you are neccesarily wrong, but are nevertheless doing exactly what you said you weren't gonna do in the disclaimer. Because Rufus' involvement maybe uncertain, the Turks certainly aren't.

The reason I put this thread in the General Compilation Section is because it deals with an event from the original game, but I'm looking at it in light of Before Crisis. Before Crisis does imply that the Turks would be under threat of death if they disobeyed orders considering the President was going to execute them right before Cloud and Co's first attack on the reactor.

And then they talked their way out of it and some choose to stay while others succesfully went into hiding.

In “Case of Shinra” it is stated that Tseng acts as evil as possible in front of Aerith for Aerith’s benefit, because Tseng thinks “evil should look like evil.”

Exactly! He was acting evil to go along with doing evil things. The slap in the face was not Tseng's way of doing things. But as he himself thinks, it hardly matters because kidnapping people certainly is. The fact that he CAN be nicer about it is in no great praise.

Reno’s behavior is never addressed in canon, but is markedly different during Sector 7 than during the rest of the compilation. Trying to take the characterization of the entire compilation as canon, is there any indication that Reno is the sort of person that would genuinely enjoy that or does his behavior in Sector 7 see out of character as compared to every other action.

I doubt he enjoyed it but it was his decision to do it.

The Turks seem like the equivalent of an intelligence agency, which entails kidnapping and immoral behavior but I would not say that’s the one of the central reasons for an intelligence agency to exist. Rather, kidnapping and immoral choices are a means to an end, I’d say their central purpose is protecting the President and other high ranking executives and combatting terrorism.

I disagree. We are very explicietly told their official purpose is searching for recruits for SOLDIER, which we know is merely a front for their true operation. Their activities may not always be sinister, but they are certainly exist primarily for doing the stuff that can't suffer the daylight. Saying they are merely an equivalent intelligence agency implies they didn't know what they were getting into and is much too lenient.

What I got from Before Crisis was that the Turk did immoral things for what they believed to be the greater good, but would help people when possible. Stopping to foil individual muggings, risking their mission to save lives when possible, caring when lives were in danger.

That maybe the reason the player Turk signed up and the way he chooses to do things so far as he/she can, but that is not the entire department's modus operandi.

I do think the Turks are capable of dropping the plate. I think if it were necessary to save lives they would do it, but I don’t think dropping the plate was necessary and that the Turks would have preferred a method of dealing with the terrorists that didn’t destroy one of Shinra’s own cities. Because the Turks do seem to value individual life in the rest of the compilation.

Preference is a far cry away from "they simply must have had done it because a gun was pointed at a loved one's head"

I wanted to be clear that Rufus did not take part in the decision as I’ve seen many people in the fandom automatically equate the President’s actions with Rufus’s actions. What we know is that Rufus wasn’t there at the time. I wasn’t sure that the plan was ever noted anywhere and was probably kept fairly tight-lipped to prevent leaks. I think leaks that did occur were word of mouth. It doesn’t seem like the sort of thing you’d want records of that could fall into the wrong hands.

I always assumed he wasn't regularly in Midgar prior to becoming President but Before Crisis disagrees. And while Pres Shinra would not be smart to tell Rufus about this kinda stuff, he should know better then to tell Reeve too, he wasn't. He talked openly about in front of Palmer at a board meeting too. This was far from Shinras most tightly guarded secret. And given how loyal the Turks are too Rufus, I wouldn't discount that he did learned through his own channels but didn't feel he had much to gain from making a stand against the Presidents plan.

Well, there's simply no other way to read the Compilation as a whole. The Turks did not enjoy what happened to Sector 7, and that includes Reno. He was one of the most vocally opposed to what happened at Nibelheim, and on no less than three occasions after the fall of Sector 7, he -- or a narrator's voice highlighting his feelings -- has spoken of guilt and redemption.

It's fairly obvious what it's referring to. The Turks are not malicious bastards. They are not sadistic. They would not have been okay with what happened to Sector 7, and as the one who pressed the button, Reno's regret would be the greatest.

I agree that they canonically felt great regret afterwards. That they must have been forced to do as at the time, I feel is a big assumption and sure feels like an attempt to absolve them for their very active part in a genocide.

And as for the line of thought that it may have been deemed neccesary to deal with the thret AVALANCHE, I'll remind you that they did not just bomb those below the plate, they killed all the entirely uninvolved people living on top of it too, to make the public hate AVALANCHE, because it was NOT taken for granted that this would be the end of it. This was an act of terrorism as vile as anything Fuhito has ever conceived off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It was, yes. It was utterly reprehensible. These aren't utterly reprehensible people, though. Just like Cloud, Barret and Tifa aren't despite doing the utterly reprehensible things they did.

I'm really glad Cameo has brought this topic up, because it's something I've given a lot of thought to as well. The Turks would not have done this without arriving at some "it's for the greater good" rationale in their minds, just as Barret and co. would have never blown up innocent people without convincing themselves that "it's for the greater good."

What Nojima has done with the Compilation is take a step back and further reinforce the already strong theme that there was very little separating the "good guys" from the "bad guys," and this is why FFVII is the strongest title in the series.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I agree that they canonically felt great regret afterwards. That they must have been forced to do as at the time, I feel is a big assumption and sure feels like an attempt to absolve them for their very active part in a genocide.

And as for the line of thought that it may have been deemed neccesary to deal with the thret AVALANCHE, I'll remind you that they did not just bomb those below the plate, they killed all the entirely uninvolved people living on top of it too, to make the public hate AVALANCHE, because it was NOT taken for granted that this would be the end of it. This was an act of terrorism as vile as anything Fuhito has ever conceived off.

It's not genocide, it's mass murder, genocide means targeting a specific group. Sorry to get picky with semantics, I have a back ground in human rights law so terminology is important to me.

Understanding the rational behind an action does not absolve the actors. AVALANCHE did not just kill employees at the reactors, although the bombs were more powerful than they intended innocent civilians still died. In regards to ShiRa's actions, the people below the plate are just as innocent as the people above it, every non-avalanche member who died is a civilian. Civilian deaths are civilian deaths, and no one is arguing that ShinRa's actions were anything less than reprehensible. Yes, this was a act of terrorism as vile as anything Fuhito ever conceived, but that does not mean it was without reason. Even Fuhito had his reasons and believed he was acting for the greater good.

I think a large theme in the compilation is grey morality and the line between good and evil. AVALANCHE are the villains in Before Crisis because they cross a line in their willingness to kill innocents to achieve their goal, ShinRa crosses the same line in FFVII. However, if anything, AVALANCHE in BC is more sympathetic than ShinRa could ever be because ShinRa's greater good is "preserving the company" while AVALANCHE's greater good is "preserving the planet". The fact that AVALANCHE was acting for the greater good, however, does not absolve Fuhito.

Before Crisis and the compilation implies that the Turks could not have refused the order and stayed with Shinra. BC and CoS imply that the Turks feel they have an obligation to stay with Rufus and help him. This is canon, and these are the circumstances the Turks are in during the Plate Drop. My argument is that these circumstances were a factor, but that does not absolve them because they could have chosen to leave regardless, they could have chosen to die in protest.

And then they talked their way out of it and some choose to stay while others succesfully went into hiding.

Rufus talked them out of it. All those that were known to be still alive stayed, the others were all ready in hiding and presumed dead at the time of the tribunal. To go into hiding after they were ordered to drop the plate would have been difficult. Again, I'm not saying they couldn't have done so. They had a choice.

I disagree. We are very explicietly told their official purpose is searching for recruits for SOLDIER, which we know is merely a front for their true operation. Their activities may not always be sinister, but they are certainly exist primarily for doing the stuff that can't suffer the daylight. Saying they are merely an equivalent intelligence agency implies they didn't know what they were getting into and is much too lenient.

You seem to have a very optimistic idea of what intelligence agencies do. I think intelligence agencies do a lot of things that can't suffer the day light, which is part of the reason so much of what they do is classified. However, I don't want to get too much into real world politics.

In the original game we only know what the Turks do based on what we're told by Non-Turks. I think, BC gives us a clearer view of the Turks purpose, which did include recruits for SOLDIER after AVALANCHE's nearly successful hijacking of the Junon Canon. The purpose of recruiting SOLDIERs at that point was to increase Shinra's response team to terrorists, which ties in to their over all function as a counter terrorism agency. I don't think being a counter terrorism/security agency means that their actions are altruistic or moral, but that they are towards what they think is the "greater good."

 

[jazzflower92]

It was, yes. It was utterly reprehensible. These aren't utterly reprehensible people, though. Just like Cloud, Barret and Tifa aren't despite doing the utterly reprehensible things they did.

I'm really glad Cameo has brought this topic up, because it's something I've given a lot of thought to as well. The Turks would not have done this without arriving at some "it's for the greater good" rationale in their minds, just as Barret and co. would have never blown up innocent people without convincing themselves that "it's for the greater good."

What Nojima has done with the Compilation is take a step back and further reinforce the already strong theme that there was very little separating the "good guys" from the "bad guys," and this is why FFVII is the strongest title in the series.

It actually makes one want to rewrite the story of FFVII with Shinra still as the main antagonists without Sephiroth while still keeping Jenova and Hojo.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree that they canonically felt great regret afterwards. That they must have been forced to do as at the time, I feel is a big assumption and sure feels like an attempt to absolve them for their very active part in a genocide.

Point of information: not all mass murders are genocides.

Wikipedia: Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Shinra may have tried to commit genocide in Wutai (although we have no evidence that they were trying to wipe all Wuteng from the face of the planet). The plate drop, however, cannot be described as a genocide, as it was not designed to eliminate any particular ethnic, racial, religious or national group. The primary purpose of the plate drop, from President Shinra's perspective, was to literally crush Avalanche; the slum dwellers were collateral damage.

Oops, sorry, Cam, I should have read your post first.

 

[Clement Rage]

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the original game but to discuss Sector 7 in light of the entire Compilation, including the events of Before Crisis which I am taking as canon for the purpose of this discussion, and the Turks' characterization in the rest of the compilation.

The reason I put this thread in the General Compilation Section is because it deals with an event from the original game, but I'm looking at it in light of Before Crisis. Before Crisis does imply that the Turks would be under threat of death if they disobeyed orders considering the President was going to execute them right before Cloud and Co's first attack on the reactor.

Sure, but that doesn't render things that actually happened in the original game inadmissible evidence. In the original game, the Turks do not act like people running scared, or under threat, at any point, and throughout canon both before and after sector 7 have a history of finding reasons to wriggle out of executing orders they dislike.

is there any indication that Reno is the sort of person that would genuinely enjoy that or does his behavior in Sector 7 see out of character as compared to every other action.

Well, there's 'sector 8 is Turks territory, slick'. Civilians are dying on the streets of Midgar and Reno is delaying the emergency response for no particular reason (there's like, fifteen Turks, to say that they have sole responsibility for policing an entire district is flat dumb, especially as Cissnei does have trouble later on.)

I was under the impression that the President put the Turks in charge of finding Veld and they weren’t really trying.

The Turks had finding Veld as one of their objectives, yes, but I highly doubt that there were no other efforts to find him at all.

But you’re right I am reading the narrative in such a way that makes carrying out Sector 7 a hard choice for the Turks. A choice between

A) Carry out horrible orders
B) Refuse and be executed
C) Abandon your position and duty to Rufus after swearing loyalty to him

But that's a false dilemma (trichotomy?), because you're pulling the fact that refusal=execution out of the air. Turks are valued operatives who know a tonne of confidential info, they might be executed for openly killing your staff and committing whatever the corporate equivalent of treason is, but that's a world away from declining one order. Tseng has a reason to put up a front, Reno does not. There may be a possibility, but it is not a fact.

There's also nothing super terrible about (C), just resurface after the Prez eventually dies.

(A) Commit Mass Murder.
(B) Refuse, and...disappear? Other members of their department have done it in the past.
(C) Refuse, and blackmail Prez into backing down
(D) Refuse, and take whatever punishment arises. Reeve was able to object without being executed.

I'm not saying that execution must be off the table, but it's not the only possibility, so to say that if they refused they would be executed isn't a fact. Especially as the theme of BC is actually 'when you have a difficult choice, find another option.'

My assumption was that the cell block was sound proof because mass slaughter seems like something that wouldn’t happen quietly.

I don't think so. Cloud was able to talk to Aeris, and judging from the continuous blood trail, the cell door was opened before Jenova was broken out.

iven what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, they probably concluded that the smaller, less devastating explosion at the no. 5 reactor was a fluke.

Given what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, it was clear that the new branch had absolutely nothing to do with them apart from the name. No uniforms, no attacking with armies, no people who revive after death, none of the same leadership, exactly one genetically modified guy who was clearly a SOLDIER rather than any other process...

The Turks would not have done this without arriving at some "it's for the greater good" rationale in their minds, just as Barret and co. would have never blown up innocent people without convincing themselves that "it's for the greater good."

When your 'greater good' justification for the retaliation against killing innocent people is to kill even more innocent people, it's probably time to rethink it. But how many wars were started based on that, right?

My interpretation of the Turks is that they value the pride of the institution of the Turks above everything else. They're always saying thinks like 'That's the will and spirit of the Turks' 'We're Turks'. They are pragmatic when they can get away with it, but everything -everything- is secondary to Turk pride.

You seem to have a very optimistic idea of what intelligence agencies do. I think intelligence agencies do a lot of things that can't suffer the day light, which is part of the reason so much of what they do is classified. However, I don't want to get too much into real world politics.

So... you're now arguing against your own point, in that they 'do a lot of things that can't suffer the daylight', because no one else can?

 

[CameoAmalthea]

The primary purpose of the plate drop, from President Shinra's perspective, was to literally crush Avalanche; the slum dwellers were collateral damage.

Unless the President intended to kill civilians,

Spoiler: both on and below the plate

(they all died when it fell, though some Shinra employees top plate were warned, there were still causalities)

, in order to poison the name of AVALANCHE in the public mind, which is my suggestion. Of course, that's open to speculation, which was what I hoped to debate in this thread.

In either case, it's mass murder as collateral damage or mass murder as terrorism, but not genocide which suggests an entirely different motive. The distinction is important because genocide is considered an separate and especially heinous crime which destroys lives, cultures, and is rooted in bigotry.

 

[Roger]

It's not genocide, it's mass murder, genocide means targeting a specific group. Sorry to get picky with semantics, I have a back ground in human rights law so terminology is important to me.

Understanding the rational behind an action does not absolve the actors. AVALANCHE did not just kill employees at the reactors, although the bombs were more powerful than they intended innocent civilians still died. In regards to ShiRa's actions, the people below the plate are just as innocent as the people above it, every non-avalanche member who died is a civilian. Civilian deaths are civilian deaths, and no one is arguing that ShinRa's actions were anything less than reprehensible. Yes, this was a act of terrorism as vile as anything Fuhito ever conceived, but that does not mean it was without reason. Even Fuhito had his reasons and believed he was acting for the greater good.

I'm sure they all had their own reasons and rationales behind their actions. I however do not buy Tseng and Reno's being "I have to do this, we will most definitely be killed otherwise with zero chance of escaping them", their opinions of Shinra's capabilities have little reason to be that unspeakably high after Before Crisis and Crisis Core, or "as bad as this is, it'll at least finally put an end to the AVALANCHE's threat" even Heidegger didn't pretend to be that optimistic.

I think a large theme in the compilation is grey morality and the line between good and evil. AVALANCHE are the villains in Before Crisis because they cross a line in their willingness to kill innocents to achieve their goal, ShinRa crosses the same line in FFVII. However, if anything, AVALANCHE in BC is more sympathetic than ShinRa could ever be because ShinRa's greater good is "preserving the company" while AVALANCHE's greater good is "preserving the planet". The fact that AVALANCHE was acting for the greater good, however, does not absolve Fuhito.

ShinRa has been the only governing body in the world for some time though for most of the populace and it's employees it can't be seen as that simple. AVALANCHE happening to be right about Mako energy killing the planet does not make sympathetic (and I do not buy that they all had seen what Buganhagen and Aerith saw), anymore then if Mako energy HAD been the future, would have made Shinra the sympathetic party in the war on Wutai.

You seem to have a very optimistic idea of what intelligence agencies do. I think intelligence agencies do a lot of things that can't suffer the day light, which is part of the reason so much of what they do is classified. However, I don't want to get too much into real world politics.

In the original game we only know what the Turks do based on what we're told by Non-Turks. I think, BC gives us a clearer view of the Turks purpose, which did include recruits for SOLDIER after AVALANCHE's nearly successful hijacking of the Junon Canon. The purpose of recruiting SOLDIERs at that point was to increase Shinra's response team to terrorists, which ties in to their over all function as a counter terrorism agency. I don't think being a counter terrorism/security agency means that their actions are altruistic or moral, but that they are towards what they think is the "greater good."

But we DO know that they are intelligence agencies, ingame Turks aren't really allowed to admit even that. Because they don't have people with deskjobs, and as such others can't pretend to be having deskjobs at the Turks, just fieldoperatives. You'd have had a bigger chance of working at the KGB and keeping your hands clean, at least directly then you do at the Turks. You work at the Turks, you WILL hurt someone, you personally.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Well, there's 'sector 8 is Turks territory, slick'. Civilians are dying on the streets of Midgar and Reno is delaying the emergency response for no particular reason (there's like, fifteen Turks, to say that they have sole responsibility for policing an entire district is flat dumb, especially as Cissnei does have trouble later on.)

I read that as Reno intervening because Zack was being sexist and stupid. Zack wanted to run and save Cissnei, assuming she was a damsel who needed saving, and Reno's line was 'she's got it covered, she doesn't need your help."

But that's a false dilemma (trichotomy?), because you're pulling the fact that refusal=execution out of the air. Turks are valued operatives who know a tonne of confidential info, they might be executed for openly killing your staff and committing whatever the corporate equivalent of treason is, but that's a world away from declining one order. Tseng has a reason to put up a front, Reno does not. There may be a possibility, but it is not a fact.

There's also nothing super terrible about (C), just resurface after the Prez eventually dies.

(A) Commit Mass Murder.
(B) Refuse, and...disappear? Other members of their department have done it in the past.
(C) Refuse, and blackmail Prez into backing down
(D) Refuse, and take whatever punishment arises. Reeve was able to object without being executed.

I'm not saying that execution must be off the table, but it's not the only possibility, so to say that if they refused they would be executed isn't a fact. Especially as the theme of BC is actually 'when you have a difficult choice, find another option.'

That's a great point.

You're right, there could have been multiple outcomes, but the Turks had no way of knowing what the outcome would be of their choices. If they refuse they could be executed, it's reasonable for them to assume as much since they were all ready skating on thin ice and the President's belief in their value to the company is not terribly strong (they executed Veld and Rufus believes they're worthwhile, but they're not in as good of a position as Reeve who's never been caught doing anything to upset the President and does very valuable work, the President needs Reeve).

I'm not saying they couldn't disappear (there's no guarantee they'll succeed but they could) but they wouldn't be able to help Rufus, and the disappearance wouldn't help his position at all. They could have attempted any other option, but in doing so they would risk their position. My point, is only that they are in a position of choosing between following orders and risking their lives/their ability to help Rufus. (The Turks sense of debt to Rufus is emphasized in Cos and BC). That doesn't make what they did right, but I think we should consider their actions, feelings, and the internal environment in ShinRa in light of what we see in BC.

Given what they knew of the original AVALANCHE, it was clear that the new branch had absolutely nothing to do with them apart from the name. No uniforms, no attacking with armies, no people who revive after death, none of the same leadership, exactly one genetically modified guy who was clearly a SOLDIER rather than any other process...

I'm not sure how much ShinRa knew about AVALANCHE. The Turks were only able to gather intelligence after the attack on Reactor One, so at that point they know this new group apparently has the exact same M.O. as the original group. I think ShinRa didn't know exactly what AVALANCHE was but that the organization seemed hydra like and would keep rising up in different forms. That is why I think the President's motive was to poison the people against the idea of AVALANCHE by making them look like mass murderers. Scared people would then cling more tightly to ShinRa and the security they seemingly offered.

When your 'greater good' justification for the retaliation against killing innocent people is to kill even more innocent people, it's probably time to rethink it. But how many wars were started based on that, right?

True, as I said, they crossed a line. These games are a good commentary on war, extremism, and morality.

So... you're now arguing against your own point, in that they 'do a lot of things that can't suffer the daylight', because no one else can?

My main point is that the Turks don't exist to kick puppies, their reason to be is not to do bad things, but to work towards a good goal by any means necessary. It's possible that the Turks motivation in carrying out their orders in Sector 7 was the belief that it was necessary to end the terrorist threat.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'd like to point out that "reasons are not excuses". Just because someone has a (good) reason for doing something does not mean that it is an excuse. Saying the reason why someones does something is not worthy of consideration because what they did was bad is never a good way to go about things. Often times, figuring out the reason a person did something can help identify if they would repeat that action and how that action could be prevented in the future.

OT: According to FFVII's calendar, the Turks are nearly executed only a few days before the start of the OG. So it's still fresh in everyone's minds. The Turks not doing what they're ordered to do is not going to be overlooked by anyone in Shin-Ra.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

People who have valid reasons for doing something don't need excuses.

Sometimes your choice of actions is limited to a choice between evils.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My assumption was that the cell block was sound proof because mass slaughter seems like something that wouldn't happen quietly.

I don't think so. Cloud was able to talk to Aeris, and judging from the continuous blood trail, the cell door was opened before Jenova was broken out.

The door was actually opened by Jenova (i.e. Sephiroth), so it wasn't open before that. You're right, though, that the cells couldn't have been soundproof.

That being said, the idea of the President's office having an escape chute he knew about wouldn't have been introduced if it wasn't meant to tell us something about the man. We already know from what happens in Junon early in BC that he'll willingly walk into a dangerous situation just to show that he's not going to let anyone think they can stand above him. He didn't run from Sephiroth for the same reason.

Everything else has already been responded to by others, so I won't touch the rest.

 

[Clement Rage]

I read that as Reno intervening because Zack was being sexist and stupid. Zack wanted to run and save Cissnei, assuming she was a damsel who needed saving, and Reno's line was 'she's got it covered, she doesn't need your help."

Don't think so. If it was any other character, maybe, but Zack? Mr 'I want to be a hero' Zack? He's the type of person who saves everyone, like Batman. Reno says 'Sector 8 is Turk territory, slick', not 'we've got it covered.', which is very different. And Tseng tries to turn down the later offer to help all the Turks. It's especially weird because Cissnei complains that 'SOLDIER's being stingy', shortly after Reno complains about SOLDIER trying to help them.

It wasn't 'a girl can't fight', it was 'I can fight, and taking these monsters down quickly is kinda important'

Hmm... not being able to help the boss I have some loyalty to v committing the mass murder of thousands. Decisions, decisions...

I'm not sure how much ShinRa knew about AVALANCHE. The Turks were only able to gather intelligence after the attack on Reactor One, so at that point they know this new group apparently has the exact same M.O. as the original group

President Shinra met them coming out of Reactor 5. Three highly skilled fighters attacking alone, with no uniforms, none of the previous leaders (he has to have been briefed on who they were), limited materia use, one elite sword guy who seems to have a grip on his mind, and is using the sword of a famous SOLDIER 1st... they're very different, even to a casual eye.

Saying the reason why someones does something is not worthy of consideration because what they did was bad is never a good way to go about things.

That's not what anyone's saying that I recall. I'm mainly disputing that the reason for committing sector seven was 'do it or die', not that 'mass murder is wrong, therefore I win'.

Turks may not exist to kick puppies, but they do have a clear mandate to do those things too secret to be made public, like conscript for experimentation. An argument could be made that without Turks, Shinra might be left without operatives capable of doing something so fatal to their rep if it comes out.

Re trapdoors: That was written in because the writer needed Rufus to survive. I understood the Prez' rationale as 'if someone can get to me at my desk, through all my armies, all my machines, all my SOLDIERs, then I've already lost, and escaping is delaying the inevitable' He failed to take into account teleportation.

RE JENOVA: So the continuous blood trail from Jenova's broken tank to the President was just dramatic effect? How did she stop dripping blood from that stretch to the cells?

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Don't think so. If it was any other character, maybe, but Zack? Mr 'I want to be a hero' Zack? He's the type of person who saves everyone, like Batman. Reno says 'Sector 8 is Turk territory, slick', not 'we've got it covered.', which is very different. And Tseng tries to turn down the later offer to help all the Turks. It's especially weird because Cissnei complains that 'SOLDIER's being stingy', shortly after Reno complains about SOLDIER trying to help them.

It wasn't 'a girl can't fight', it was 'I can fight, and taking these monsters down quickly is kinda important'

I guess it's just a difference of opinion, but when I played, and you can see the scene here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42vJhik1mpU&list=PL85B216E81DDC1CF7

at about 10:35, what I see is Zack sees a girl corned my monsters and shouts "Hold On, I'm a - coming" Then moves to help her only be blocked by Reno and Rude. When Tseng arrives Zack whines for Tseng to do something because he feels he needs to help the girl, but is then informed "There's no need for concern". Zack says "Huh" and stops panicking long enough to turn around and see that the girl has finished off the monsters on her own. Which is why I took the scene as "no need to help her, she can do it on her own". She's a Turk and she's capable, and she doesn't need to be rescued.

Zack then learns Cissnei is a Turk and is surprised (despite the uniform and fighting capability). Then he starts being friendly, at which point Tseng asks if there isn't something else he's supposed to be doing. (Which is to say, stop hitting on her). Zack offers to hang around to help out, I think Tseng declined in part to get Zack away from Cissnei since he seems a bit distracted by her. Cissnei cuts him off by leaving of her own accord (she doesn't need Tseng to protect her from guys, she can handle herself), after which point Tseng asks for your help finding Hollander.

To me the whole scene was about how Zack was treating Cissnei.

But that's just a difference of opinion.

Hmm... not being able to help the boss I have some loyalty to v committing the mass murder of thousands. Decisions, decisions...

Betraying a man who just saved your life and the lives of everyone you care about v. committing the mass murder of thousands.

I never said it was the right choice, just that there were factors which made it difficult and reasons they couldn't just walk away.

President Shinra met them coming out of Reactor 5. Three highly skilled fighters attacking alone, with no uniforms, none of the previous leaders (he has to have been briefed on who they were), limited materia use, one elite sword guy who seems to have a grip on his mind, and is using the sword of a famous SOLDIER 1st... they're very different, even to a casual eye.

Fair enough, but I guess I'm not convinced Shinra could assess what level threat AVALANCHE was although, again, my point with this thread was that the plate drop was less about killing the individuals as destroying the idea. It was not a move motivated by fear of AVALANCHE. AVALANCHE themselves weren't much of a threat, but the movement seemed to continue no matter how many times ShinRa thought they'd crushed it.

 

[Clement Rage]

Funnily enough, I read that scene completely differently.

Zack (sees Cissnei, saving people reflex kicks in): Hold on, I'm a'coming.

Do you honestly think he'd have acted differently for a male Turk? That entire section of the game is about saving people, including several men, and earlier in the video in the Shinra lobby he sees in the distance Shinra employees fighting but before he can get to them they get killed! There's nothing wrong with trying to help someone when they're fighting for their life! All he can see is the suit, which those two in the training room were also wearing while not being Turks.

Reno: Sector 8 is Turks territory, slick. (Go away.)

Zack: You've gotta be kidding me! Tseng, do something! (This guy is seriously going to get hung up on jurisdiction at a time like this? That's insane! I was given a direct order by Sephiroth!)

Tseng: There's no need for concern. (A dismissal)

Zack: Huh? (You too? Really?) Okay... (I can't believe these guys)

Tseng: The other areas? (genuine question)

Reno: Midgar's just crawling with nasties.

Rude: SOLDIER is having difficultiesBasically rubbing it in Zack's face, a 'get the hell out of here')

Then they get dismissed.

Zack: So now we're outsourcing to the Turks? (Stops because he just got ordered not to help out.)

Cissnei: SOLDIER'S being stingy.

Zack: There's a manpower shortage. Huh? (didn't know she was there. Now that she's close enough to see properly, makes the connection.)You're a Turk too?

They introduce themselves.

Tseng: Zack, aren't you on assignment? (Get out of here)

Zack: Same objective. Need some help here? (Yes, but your guys ordered my not to help em, my hands are tied. Want to reconsider? It's a big sector)

Tseng refuses, apparently just because of inter department rivalry.
Cissnei elects to take the help offered.

So what do you think of him helping Cissnei again at the end of the video after she's disarmed? Good let's player, by the way

Edit: I just remembered something we all missed so far. President Shinra doesn't assign the Turks to drop the pillar, Heidegger does.

President: How are the preparations going?

Heidegger: Smoothly, very smoothly. I assigned the Turks to this

He's talking to the Prez, he wouldn't say that if the Prez had requested the Turks be assigned as a test of loyalty. And BC establishes that Shinra executives need presidential authority to put a kill order on the Turks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The President still gave the order for it happen. He probably knows his own chain of command well enough to know who gets sent for stuff like this. They wouldn't have sent SOLDIER, obviously.

Anyway, I don't think Cameo's point was that the whole thing was a test of loyalty for them -- rather, they had narrowly escaped execution a couple of days earlier, so refusing a massive order at such a time would have secured their demise and caused Rufus to lose face.

 

[Clement Rage]

Yeah, but the fact that it's Heidegger who gave the order introduces a degree of separation that makes 'obey or die' less likely. The President seems to just want it done, without caring how, as long as Shinra comes away with clean hands.

Either Heidi has other people who can drop the pillar, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, the Turks refusal saves thousands of lives, and they can explain the inconvenience to Rufus later. If he does, he's less likely to complain to the Prez, because given his character, that would make him look weak to his boss, so it's better to just use the other option available. He could still punish them, but going by BC canon, he needs Presidential authority for a kill order.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Heidi." XD

Going by BC, he would have gotten that kill order. I mean, the President unilaterally ordered their deaths more than once in that game.

It would have probably gone down like so:

Heidegger: "Sooo, bad newsss. The operatives I assigned to drop the plate refused at the last minute. Also, AVALANCHE found out what was going down from that little shit Corneo and then they ran off to Sector 7 to warn everyone. The slum dwellers are talking about rebellion, some have joined AVALANCHE and we're right back where we started a few years ago. Oh, and the Ancient is with them. ... So, we're actually in a worse position than a few years ago."

President: "What! Who refused the order?!"

Heidegger: "Have you met the Turks?"

President: "Those impudent fucks! I want their beating hearts on my desk! This time they've gone too far! I should never have listened to Rufus!"