Heidegger would probably have been relieved to get rid of the Turks once and for all. They can't have been easy to manage, they were probably all subtly insubordinate, and they don't appear to have the same loyalty towards Heidegger that his troops do. Plus I bet he never felt he could pick them up and throw them against walls or into the sea the way he did when his regular soldiers got on his nerves.
Going by BC, he would have gotten that kill order. I mean, the President unilaterally ordered their deaths more than once in that game.
It would have probably gone down like so:
Heidegger: "Sooo, bad newsss. The operatives I assigned to drop the plate refused at the last minute. Also, AVALANCHE found out what was going down from that little shit Corneo and then they ran off to Sector 7 to warn everyone. The slum dwellers are talking about rebellion, some have joined AVALANCHE and we're right back where we started a few years ago. Oh, and the Ancient is with them. ... So, we're actually in a worse position than a few years ago."
My point is, if he had other options, he wouldn't ask for that order, because that makes him look bad to not be able to control his subordinates. He would be seriously pissed, and take measures himself, but he probably wouldn't go to the Prez. After all, he could be held responsible just as easily.
If they did refuse (not necessarily at the last minute), there'd be no one around at the top of the pillar when AVALANCHE got there, so they'd just look stupid about panicking, although Shinra would lose the chance to drop the pillar.
Heidegger would probably have been relieved to get rid of the Turks once and for all. They can't have been easy to manage, they were probably all subtly insubordinate, and they don't appear to have the same loyalty towards Heidegger that his troops do
Heh...It's funny how loyal they are, considering. There's this one moment in Junon where he beats one up, and after he leaves, they comment on all the pressure he's under. It's exposition, but it still comes across as sympathy somehow.
On the Turks, I don't think he likes them, but I don't know that he hates them. The tension in BC was mostly Scarlet, and however annoying they are, they're still useful.
While the President's decision to drop the Sector 7 plate can be analyzed in the context of Before Crisis (testing the loyalty of the Turks, most of all) I think the motivation for such a drastic action is simple and hinted at enough in the original game: Because his sights were set on Neo-Midgar.
Reeve
“We have the damage estimates for Sector 7.”
“Considering those factories we already set up
and all the investments,
the damage is estimated
at approximately 10 Billion gil…”
Reeve
“The estimated cost to rebuild Sector 7 is…”
President Shinra
“We're not rebuilding.”
Reeve
“What?”
President Shinra
“We're leaving Sector 7 as it is.”
“And restarting the Neo-Midgar plan.”
Reeve
“…then the Ancients?”
President Shinra
“The Promised Land will soon be ours.”
To me, the rational isn't very deep. President Shinra was obviously more set than ever on finding the Promised Land (the fact that Aerith was captured at this time may or may not have been related at all to the President's sudden drive) and building Neo-Midgar. It doesn't matter that President Shinra was already on the top of the world. His greed for power doesn't allow for there to be a top, even with all his enemies crushed and with all the money in the world at his disposal.
That's why there doesn't need to be a deeper rational for the decision to drop Sector 7, the decision to keep the Deepground program active and so on. President Shinra does things out of endless power greed and because he can.
If testing the loyalty of the Turks was a concern, it was very much a secondary concern beneath his main motive of finding the Promised Land and building Neo-Midgar.
Heidegger would probably have been relieved to get rid of the Turks once and for all. They can't have been easy to manage, they were probably all subtly insubordinate, and they don't appear to have the same loyalty towards Heidegger that his troops do. Plus I bet he never felt he could pick them up and throw them against walls or into the sea the way he did when his regular soldiers got on his nerves.
I sorta like the thought of him trying this on Rude and getting thrown through a wall by sheer reflex (Rude is too professional to intentionally try to murder his boss for doing something stupid right?) Followed by Reno zapping him with his electro-mag rod "in an attempt to revive him"
While the President's decision to drop the Sector 7 plate can be analyzed in the context of Before Crisis (testing the loyalty of the Turks, most of all) I think the motivation for such a drastic action is simple and hinted at enough in the original game: Because his sights were set on Neo-Midgar.
To me, the rational isn't very deep. President Shinra was obviously more set than ever on finding the Promised Land (the fact that Aerith was captured at this time may or may not have been related at all to the President's sudden drive) and building Neo-Midgar. It doesn't matter that President Shinra was already on the top of the world. His greed for power doesn't allow for there to be a top, even with all his enemies crushed and with all the money in the world at his disposal.
That's why there doesn't need to be a deeper rational for the decision to drop Sector 7, the decision to keep the Deepground program active and so on. President Shinra does things out of endless power greed and because he can.
If testing the loyalty of the Turks was a concern, it was very much a secondary concern beneath his main motive of finding the Promised Land and building Neo-Midgar.
What I assumed from that was that he didn't really believe super strongly in it, but if it did exist it was potentially profitable, so it was worth looking into. When you own all the money in the world, you can afford to indulge your pipe-dreams, however unlikely they are.
This. So much. It's the FFVII Compilation not "ditch the OG or pick and choose what you like".
I'm really glad Cameo has brought this topic up, because it's something I've given a lot of thought to as well. The Turks would not have done this without arriving at some "it's for the greater good" rationale in their minds, just as Barret and co. would have never blown up innocent people without convincing themselves that "it's for the greater good."
I disagree with this perception. I'm not saying that this interpretation is impossible, but narrowing the Turk's and AVALANCHE's actions to only one possible answer is very wrong. I'd like to offer up some alternative rationalizations for Barret and Co's reasons for killing innocent people during the bombing missions or their complete un-involvement in the killing of civilians. 1] Jesse made a fatal mistake. Shinra is their enemy, not the people. However, Jesse underestimated the bomb's explosive power and people got killed in the end. Jesse expresses that she was the one who made the bomb, was not a professional bomb maker, and expresses remorse for having made this grave mistake.
Jessie
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.
Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.
2] They didn't care if they killed civilians while bombing the Reactor. One reason is that AVALANCHE bears a grudge/prejudice against those who live on top of the Plate as well as/or those who work for Shinra Electric Power Company. There would be a number of reasons to hold this view, such as: those people are as bad as Shinra, they treat Slum people like trash, anyone who works for Shinra is morally twisted, and anyone who turns a blind eye to Shinra's atrocities is unforgivable. The Slums and its civilians were not affected by the bombings, other than a temporary blackout. The one exception would be Jesse as she is the only one to show remorse.
It could be argued against this interpretation that since Jesse was the one who created the bomb the other members of AVALANCHE did not personally feel responsible for the civilian deaths and so did not express guilt. Then also, that the location of the Reactors prevented the Slums from being directly affected.
The only positive evidence of any member feeling this way is Barret when he antagonizes a Shinra manager on the train. Tifa's decision to curb Barret's hostility doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't share his sentiments, only that his current conduct isn't appropriate given that they are on an important mission and need to keep their cover from getting blown.
Shinra Manager
...hoodlums again. God, don't I just have all the luck...
Barret
You say sumthin'?
I said, 'you say sumthin'!?
Yo, look at that!! It got empty alluva sudden.
What's goin' on?
Shinra Manager
DAMN!!
I... it's empty because of... g, guys like you...
--- Y, Y, YIPES!!
You... you've seen the news, right? AVALANCHE says there'll be more bombings.
Only devoted employees like me would go to Midgar on a day like today.
Barret
You workin' for Shinra?
Shinra Manager
I won't give in to violence... and I'm not giving up my seat either!
3] They really didn't kill any civilians. As Shinra didn't hesitate to drop a Plate later on in the game and blame it on AVALANCHE I wouldn't put it past them to have done other acts of terrorism in the past only to have blamed it on "the terrorists". For example, they could have set off their own bombs after AVALANCHE's or craftily planted other bombs in the Reactor beforehand that would get set off by AVALANCHE's bomb, which would be powerful enough to affect the populous. The act of terrorism would cause the people to fear/hate AVALANCHE and turn a blind eye to their message of truth. It's possible that Jesse didn't miscalculate and the formula she got from the computer to make the bomb was correct, but she second guesses herself and is quick to take the blame because she has amateur bomb making skills or because she's used to making mistakes.
It's also mentioned that there was at least one other "explosion of terrorism by AVALANCHE" in the game, but we are never told the details other than that it wasn't a Reactor that was blown up. It's possible that this particular incident was Shinra's doing and that AVALANCHE was completely uninvolved.
What makes this third interpretation even reasonably possible to me is that there are two gossipers in the Slums who could be being paid by Shinra to spread disinformation. Or they are simply passing on disinformation believing it to be truth. Either way, disinformation is one of the best methods of psychological warfare. The big man upstairs at the Sector 7 Weapon's Shop and the bald man on the train also have something to say about what message Shinra is relaying to the people concerning AVALANCHE. President Shinra's speech on the news says enough itself.
Gossip
Did you hear?
--- There's a news update. They say that there was a terrorist explosion up above, and that this time it was a Mako Reactor!!
You know what this means?
--- Ya see, I keep on top of these things, an' if ya ask me......
If you knock out Midgar's power, then all of its computers and signals are going to be knocked out too.
Financially there must've been about a billion gil worth of damage.
An' that ain't all!! A lotta innocent people got killed too!
If the explosion had been in the middle of the night, that woulda been one thing. At least the people coulda gone in their sleep.
This Mako explosion has really sent Midgar into a fit.
Gossip
Did you hear?
---
About that little girl named Tifa and that bar called '7th Heaven'. I'm not only informed, I'm kinda nosey too. Anyhow, I got the scoop.
You wanna hear?
---
That Barret and three of his henchmen are like this sometimes.
Suddenly, they threw out a customer and start talking trash to him. It's strange, if you ask me. And that place always smells like gun powder.
It's dangerous, I tell you. They must be doing terrible things in there.
---
Oh really? Well, aren't you a cool one!
Bald Man You see the headlines in the Shinra Times?
The terrorists that bombed the No. 1 Reactor are based somewhere in the slums.
...blowing up a Reactor... they sure put some thought into this one.
They must have a real calculating leader. I wonder what they'll do next?
Big Man Unn......!! Who the hell are you!? No unauthorized access.
Since today's special, I'm gonna let you in on a juicy bit of news. But you gotta keep it to yourself.
Do you know what's been going on......?
--- I guess you must be sick of hearing it... But it's been so long since there was any real news here.
You're worried where it's all heading, right?
--- Everything's in a buzz 'bout that terrorist group AVALANCHE blowin' up the Sector 1 Mako Reactor. On the surface they say they're an anti-Shinra group, but in reality...
They say they're just out to kill as many people as they can.
Gyaaaa, Haaa haaa!!
That's a good one, ain't it!? While they're bustin' things up on top, the only ones makin' out good are us weapon stores!
Now, if we can just get rid of this back stock, we'll be doin' ok.
President Shinra
.........today the No. 1 Reactor was bombed. The terrorist group AVALANCHE has claimed responsibility for the bombing.
It is expected that AVALANCHE will continue its reign of terror.
But citizens of Midgar, there is no need to fear.
I have immediately mobilized SOLDIER to protect our citizenry against this senseless violence. Thank you and good night.
Even in the original game, Barret says they expected civilian casualties, but tries justifying it as being "for the life of the planet." Cait Sith calls him out on it and Tifa acknowledges that Barret is just trying to bury his guilt, and she knows because they all share it.
I mean, yeah the game had themes about moral ambiguity, but I never took it as "Shinra aren't evil Avalanche aren't good" More about Avalanche's moral grey areas. Shinra are the fucking baddies - and that's ok, and it's still ok to like the characters.
Because I'd rather the Turks were just doing things for their own ends, than have them doing stuff they find morally reprehensible just because they're to weak or stupid to do otherwise.
It's a circle that isn't ever really going to be squared (geddit? Squared?) They made so many stupid decisions plotting the compilation. They didn't pay enough attention to their source material, and then we end up with stupid fanservice like Tifa giggling on the phone to Reno.
Funny thing is, in trying to sanitise the Turks, the compilation actually made them look even worse by establishing how willing, able, and capable they are at wriggling out of, defying, or just going AWOL in response to orders they dislike.
Even in the original game, Barret says they expected civilian casualties, but tries justifying it as being "for the life of the planet." Cait Sith calls him out on it and Tifa acknowledges that Barret is just trying to bury his guilt, and she knows because they all share it.
Oops. Totally missed that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! So then it does stand that AVALANCHE was willing to go so far for "the greater good". And Barret's words in Cosmo Canyon would also affirm this point.
Barret
Cosmo Canyon... This's where AVALANCHE was born...
I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate...
Biggs... Wedge... Jessie...
Now they're all gone... died for the planet.
...Really? To save the planet?
We all... we all hate the Shinra...
Do I even got a to go on?
Will they......... will they ever forgive me?
...Right now, I really don't know. But I know one thing. If there's anything I can do, to save the planet... or the people livin' on it... Then I'm gonna do it!
I don't care if it's for justice or revenge, or whatever. I don't care...... let 'em decide for 'emselves.
He gets to his feet.
Urrrrrgh! I'm gonna do it!!
Again... Again... AVALANCHE's born again!
Even in the original game, Barret says they expected civilian casualties, but tries justifying it as being "for the life of the planet." Cait Sith calls him out on it and Tifa acknowledges that Barret is just trying to bury his guilt, and she knows because they all share it.
When ya blew the Midgar No. 1 up, how many folks d'ya think died?
Barret
...that was for the life of the planet. Ya gotta expect a few casualties.
Cait Sith
A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is everythin' to them who died......
You know, you're right. I can find sources that talk about innocents being killed, but it's never specified if they were civilians or if they were Shinra workers.
The fact that they were even having that conversation made it clear that they were talking about innocent people. NPCs in the slums talk about it, and Jessie herself suggests that her death is her punishment for the people who died because of AVALANCHE just before she dies in the fall of Sector 7.
EDIT: Also, one of the people in the slums mentions that had the explosion gone off in the middle of the night, then at least the collateral damage would have gone in their sleep. That clearly points to the explosion engulfing civilian residences as well.
The fact that they were even having that conversation made it clear that they were talking about innocent people. NPCs in the slums talk about it, and Jessie herself suggests that her death is her punishment for the people who died because of AVALANCHE just before she dies in the fall of Sector 7.
EDIT: Also, one of the people in the slums mentions that had the explosion gone off in the middle of the night, then at least the collateral damage would have gone in their sleep. That clearly points to the explosion engulfing civilian residences as well.
Not necessarily. It's perfectly possible to feel bad about killing enemy combatants, aside from the engineers and maintenance people that were probably there.
Slums guy probably gets his info from the Shinra news, which we know isn't reliable.
Nothing brought up within the game itself suggests that this information is inaccurate, though, nor is there much reason to believe anyone would have gotten up in arms about enemy combatants (Reeve killed Shin-Ra soldiers too via Cait Sith). The engineers would certainly qualify as innocent people, but they were expected to die when AVALANCHE planned to blow up a reactor, so that particular point comes down to how likely it is you think Barret and co. would feel remorse about them.
What is definite is that Jessie told us her bomb was more powerful than intended, that no one contests the notion of innocent people (including civilians) dying from the bomb, and that various members of AVALANCHE express guilt over what happened, including the bomb maker while on her deathbed of sorts.
Even if no one wants to acknowledge the Compilation, we don't really need it to confirm what happened (even though it does in Episode:Tifa: "An error in the bomb's manufacture caused destruction beyond anything the saboteurs imagined, both to the reactor itself and the surrounding area"). The original game made it all clear.
Isn't it easier to figure out why avalanche, or aeris didn't warn the people in the slums about the plate coming down? the people outside the gate knew, also the npc train operator at the train station knew about it and said he would not leave. after this event there was a shinra news report on a television stating that there were no casualties in the incident, that there shows that shinra news can't be trusted, even regarding the reactor bombings
