Shinra Mansion

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Do we ever find out why this building even exists? I mean, originally? It looks older than the company itself.

Furthermore, why were the Jenova Project peeps put up in the inn instead of here? It's odd enough even if the building was already there, owned by Shinra, its basement lab utilized for the Jenova Project with bedrooms (and a possibly functional, possibly nonfunctional kitchen) upstairs, and still the company opted to rent out rooms at the inn for an undisclosed amount of time—an additional cost and more likely to raise suspicions from the residents—but the idea of Shinra Manor being built specifically for the Jenova Project and not serving as the scientists' accommodations is ridiculous.

Or are we supposed to believe that Dirge of Cerberus retconned them staying at the inn? We never see them in the inn in DoC, and Lucrecia's fall-over-and-faint scene is shown in one of the rooms of the mansion instead—although this could be one of multiple incidents, with others occurring in the inn. We also see the whole "You're really going to experiment on your child?" scene take place in one of the mansion's rooms, as well as the Lucrecia-meets-Vincent scene, but we never see any of them in a bedroom or giving any indication that they are living there aside from DoC's lack of reference to staying at the inn.

When Sephiroth remarks on the place seeming familiar in FF7 and Crisis Core, although he's standing in the inn when he says it, he only comments on the scenery/landscape in both games, and not the inn itself.

Cloud:
We found him inside the biggest building in Nibelheim.
Tifa:
The villagers used to call it Shinra mansion.
Cloud:
Long ago, people from Shinra used to live in that mansion...

Does he mean the Jenova Project, or before that?

I think evidence alludes to the mansion being older than the Jenova Project, but if anyone else recalls evidence to the contrary I'd welcome it.

So if the Shinra mansion is older than the Jenova Project, then why and when was it built?

Incidentally, do we know in which location the ShinRa company started? Old Junon? Or is it possible that Shinra Mansion is where the Shinra family lived before they became ShinRa Inc.?

Forgive me if I'm forgetting something obvious.

 

[jazzflower92]

The Compilation ignores everything that was stated in the Ultimanias when it suits them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I have no proof that this is canon, but my understanding is that both Project G and Project S were carried out in remote locations near an abundant source of mako - Mideel in the case of Project G, Nibelheim in the case of Project S. I assume that after he inherited the Science Department Headship, and had killed Vincent and got rid of Lucretia, Hojo moved his entire operation to Midgar.

However, it seems that his lab in the Shinra mansion was still fully operational when the bombing of Kalm occurred, because unless I am much mistaken Veld supervised the transportation of the surviving victims of Kalm to Nibelheim (which doesn't really make any sense, but hey, what else is new?). It also seems VERY odd that Hojo would shift from Nibelheim to Midgar yet leave his prize possession,. Jenova, behind. I wonder if perhaps a skeleton crew was kept on at the Nibelheim mansion, primarily to keep an eye on Jenova and the makonoids in the reactor, but that Zack and Sephiroth were put up at the inn because they were too elite to bunk down in the mansion, which perhaps had no domestic staff by this point?

The more I think about it, the odder it is that they would have sent Sephiroth into a reactor where they must have known the chances of him seeing the makonoids were pretty high. Maybe they just didn't care, or didn't think that he had any feelings. Or maybe Hojo engineered the situation deliberately, to see what would happen when Sephiroth came into close proximity with Jenova. He must have been very disappointed by the result.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^I personally go with the "Hojo wanted to see what would happen if Sephiroth got close to Jenova" theory as even without the rest of the Compilation, there's no good reason for Sephiroth to be sent to the reactor in the OG. Also, even with just the OG, Hojo is conveniently nearby. He was obviously expecting something to happen.

 

[jazzflower92]

^^I personally go with the "Hojo wanted to see what would happen if Sephiroth got close to Jenova" theory as even without the rest of the Compilation, there's no good reason for Sephiroth to be sent to the reactor in the OG. Also, even with just the OG, Hojo is conveniently nearby. He was obviously expecting something to happen.

Yeah, anything bad that happens in the FF7 universe can usually be traced back to Hojo's doing.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The Compilation ignores everything that was stated in the Ultimanias when it suits them.

What does that have to do with anything pertaining to Shinra Manor?

I have no proof that this is canon, but my understanding is that both Project G and Project S were carried out in remote locations near an abundant source of mako - Mideel in the case of Project G, Nibelheim in the case of Project S.

Sound. Both are fairly Podunk towns so I would assume this, too.

I assume that after he inherited the Science Department Headship, and had killed Vincent and got rid of Lucretia Lucrecia, Hojo moved his entire operation to Midgar.

Wait, are you implying you think Nibelheim was Hojo’s permanent base of operations prior to Jenova Project S, or just that he was stationed there for so long that it became such? I've always been under the impression that Nibelheim was a temporary assignment for all 4 of them. I believe the timeline indicates that Midgar was being built during this time, so obviously Hojo, Lucrecia, Gast, and Vincent were not stationed at Midgar prior to Nibelheim, but I’ve assumed it would have been Junon or something. Isn’t that where ShinRa’s HQ was before Midgar? Why would the science department be primarily located anywhere other than the ShinRa HQ?

I'm willing to buy "Sephiroth and Zack were put up in the inn because it was more leet for their leet celebrity selves" (and the grunts with them as a courtesy), but not the scientists and Vincent. For years. If for no other reason than that they would have had the inn at full capacity for years. Like, they basically would have had to buy the inn. And already owned the mansion.

The more I think about it, the odder it is that they would have sent Sephiroth into a reactor where they must have known the chances of him seeing the makonoids were pretty high. Maybe they just didn't care, or didn't think that he had any feelings. Or maybe Hojo engineered the situation deliberately, to see what would happen when Sephiroth came into close proximity with Jenova. He must have been very disappointed by the result.

I thought it was canon that Hojo staged the whole thing just to see what would happen for the hell of it. Which kind of dashed my fan-desires, too, since I would have preferred to think of Hojo as seeing the loss of Sephiroth as a defeat. As his prize specimen, if nothing else.

 

[Clement Rage]

Maybe he sent himself. Lazard's gone by then, so who is there to give him orders?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What does that have to do with anything pertaining to Shinra Manor?

She's referring to one of the Ultimanias confirming that Sephiroth's remark about the familiar view from the inn was because he was born in that room at the inn. As you pointed out, Dirge seems to contradict this.

Why would the science department be primarily located anywhere other than the ShinRa HQ?

The first mako reactor was built in Nibelheim, so that's one possible reason. And the Shinra family obviously used to live there, which is probably the reason the first reactor was put there.

Makes sense -- first reactor is constructed in the town the family is from, which leads to lots of sciency shit needing to be done there in secret, which leads to more sciency shit being dome there in secret over the years.

I thought it was canon that Hojo staged the whole thing just to see what would happen for the hell of it.

The VII Ultimania Omega does suggest this.

But then it also said Seph was born at the inn, so who the hell knows.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Um, okay, I don't exactly have what I'd call head canon for this, but in the back of my mind I always figured the development of Shinra went something like this:

They got rich selling arms because they had customers. No trace, or very little, remains of what must have been the warring states to which they sold their weapons, but before they were a power company they were a weapons company and they just can't have been based at Nibelheim, there isn't even a factory there and it's way too small and insignificant and out of the way. A business the size of Shinra Weapons manufacturing would have generated a sizeable local economy. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to where they were based, but both Junon and the pre-Midgar conurbation of the Eight Towns would seem like reasonable hypotheses.

Because naturally occurring materia had always been useful as weaponry, Shinra began to investigate the possibility of manufacturing it on an industrial scale, and accidentally discovered mako energy. In order to test their discovery in secret, President Shinra's father bought a decaying mansion in a village at the end of the road to nowhere, because it offered an abundant source of easily accessible mako. There's really no other explanation for their No. 1 reactor being somewhere as remote as Nibelheim; the local energy market isn't big enough to make the reactor commercially viable. They set up the lab in the basement initially to experiment with mako processing.

At some point, when they were grubbing around in the earth looking for this and that (most probably more mako streams) they unearthed Jenova. It would then make sense for them to move her to their most remote, top secret location. I don't know if all those tubes she is attached to are filled with mako, but who knows, maybe they needed her in the reactor because they had to drip-feed her with mako? Or maybe they put her in the reactor because it's almost impossible to break into it?

Meanwhile, once the efficacy of mako energy was proven, Shinra started its program of building reactors in more heavily populated areas (I mean, it's all relative, since everywhere aside from Midgar and maybe Junon appears to be a village on the world map, but if their world were real there is no way you could have such a sophisticated global economy with only two cities) - and soon mako energy was making them so much money that they could afford to buy up the warring armies and enforce peace.

Then when the build-a-Cetra project started, Hojo was assigned Nibelheim as his base and Hollander was assigned Banora, while Gast was based at Midgar but regularly travelled back and forth to both location to monitor the progress of the projects. I don't think that Nilbelheim was Shinra's main lab, but I think that for the duration of Project S, it was Hojo's HQ.

That's all I've got.

 

[jazzflower92]

The Shinra Mansion reminds me somewhat of the Winchester Mystery House. Mostly because of the fact that the Winchester family were famous for their guns and it was rumored all those who were killed by their guns haunted the house. If Shinra's start as a weapon's manufacturer is true then it could partially explain the things that are residing in the place.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

She's referring to one of the Ultimanias confirming that Sephiroth's remark about the familiar view from the inn was because he was born in that room at the inn. As you pointed out, Dirge seems to contradict this.

Ah, gotcha. So it's "canon," but the variety of which that we're all more or less collectively willing to ignore.

The first mako reactor was built in Nibelheim, so that's one possible reason. And the Shinra family obviously used to live there, which is probably the reason the first reactor was put there.

Makes sense -- first reactor is constructed in the town the family is from, which leads to lots of sciency shit needing to be done there in secret, which leads to more sciency shit being dome there in secret over the years.

IS it obvious, though? I mean, is that ever said by anyone, or is it just something we all kind of inferred? Because the older this fandom gets, the more things I find out we've/I've understood to be the story all along were never what the creators intended.

Um, okay, I don't exactly have what I'd call head canon for this, but in the back of my mind I always figured the development of Shinra went something like this:

Was looking for canon more than headcanon. I mean, we can all come up with our own headcanon.

However, the point that Nibelheim would likely appear more militaristic if the ShinRa Weapons Manufacturing Company got off the ground there is pretty sound logic.

because [the Nibelheim area] offered an abundant source of easily accessible mako. There's really no other explanation for their No. 1 reactor being somewhere as remote as Nibelheim; the local energy market isn't big enough to make the reactor commercially viable.

This has some canon backing it up also. On the hike up to the reactor with Tifa and Cloud, Sephiroth mentions that this area is especially abundant in mako energy, does he not?

Spoiler: Edit: Yes, yes he does.

Also, I don’t know how much this would have factored into the creators’ intentions, but the nearby Lucrecia’s Cave/Chaos’s spawning site is a fairly special location, too. That materia fountain seems pretty unique to their world; the only other location like it is where Sephiroth’s body and Weapon were sleeping on the Northern Continent. Given the proximity of the Chaos site to Nibelheim, it’s possible that the two locations are part of the same Lifestream “watershed,” so to speak.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

IS it obvious, though? I mean, is that ever said by anyone, or is it just something we all kind of inferred? Because the older this fandom gets, the more things I find out we've/I've understood to be the story all along were never what the creators intended.

Hmm, maybe not. I was remembering "people from Shinra used to live in that mansion" as implying that the family did, but that's not necessarily the case.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Hmm, maybe not. I was remembering "people from Shinra used to live in that mansion" as implying that the family did, but that's not necessarily the case.

As did I, but it could very well mean Vincent, Lucrecia, Hojo, and/or Gast. Or even Hojo again and whatever other assistants he may have had looking after Zack and Cloud (if that line doesn't happen in the flashback itself, but I don't remember who/where/when it is said).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The line happens during the flashback, just before Cloud goes into the mansion to look for Seph.

 

[Clement Rage]

I always assumed the 'people from Shinra' referred to were Hojo et al. I can't see the Shinra family ever living there, or it would have come up, there'd be tourists to see Shinra's beginnings and things like that.

 

[Novus]

I Just want to mention Lucrecia is shown at the inn in the original game.
http://youtu.be/k2GgaX1Dn7s?t=1m14s
This also looks to be Sephiroth's birth, when Lucrecia collapses in the following scene. 1:41 into it.

This might be common knowledge but I read this thread a couple of times and didn't see any reference to it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ravynne and I mentioned it. That's why there was talk of DC appearing inconsistent with the original game and the Ultimania.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The line happens during the flashback, just before Cloud goes into the mansion to look for Seph.

Oh, right, it's Cloud narrating the flashback and I quoted it already myself. I actually keep thinking it's an NPC somewhere who says it. Forget that momentary lapse of intelligence...pretend I only said the first part.