Staff Related BS and Discussions split from FFOF

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Since I now get this everytime I go to the feedback section.

You have been removed indefinitely from this discussion due to abuse. This is not a ban - feel free to browse other forum threads.

I guess i will create the thread I stated I would back on FFOF.

In regards to recent drama and "supposed shit stirring" It was mentioned that the reason for the drama was that "an isolated few" disliked Ryu and were out for his head.
It was also stated that "these few" are biased and as a result should have no say in making complaints about his behaviour.

So here we are.

Im asking everyone on TLS their oppinions on Ryu.

Have you ever felt uncomfortable by posts he has made about you/your friends?

Do you feel that he is abusing his powers when it suits him?

Do you feel that your being passed off when you complain with dismissive comments such as "You just don't get his humour"?

I would like the memberbase to answer this (note aaron this isn't shit stirring im merely testing yours and mako's theory from ffof that there haven't been any other complaints about his behaviour other than from me and a few others)



My second point was going to refer to a post made by aaron on ffof about the memberbase's oppinions not accounting for shit but funnily enough tls came back online and the stuff on ffof all got deleted including my own signature.

 

[Arianna]

Do you feel that your being passed off when you complain with dismissive comments such as "You just don't get his humour"?

I feel this way when it comes to different members. I feel that - because I don't get something, or become confused on a matter - I am in the wrong and ridiculed because of my lack of knowledge on the matter.

I also feel this way with some members when I try to joke around and be a part of the crowd. I feel that I am spotlighted as wrong because someone else didn't get the joke - which was in all innocence and nothing serious.

I know this thread is about Ryu - in which I've had no issues - but this one question really fits the bill on some other personal matters. I hope you don't mind the comment. The general feeling of discomfort has been on my shoulders a few times.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

It's cool have your say.
It's not intended to shit stir it's main purpose was to get the public oppinion on matters.

 

[Octo]

Im asking everyone on TLS their oppinions on Ryu.

Have you ever felt uncomfortable by posts he has made about you/your friends?

No, I have had comments and innuendos from Ryu but they have never been any worse than comments I have had from other users. I have never felt uncomfortable by anything he has said to me or to anyone I am close to.

Do you feel that he is abusing his powers when it suits him?

No, as far as I am aware he hasn't done anything that I would consider an 'abuse of power'.

Do you feel that your being passed off when you complain with dismissive comments such as "You just don't get his humour"?

Leading question yerrhonner!

I get Ryu's sense of humor just fine. I will admit that sometimes it can come across as overbearing but I haven't experienced any malice.


This is just my honest opinion. I do not consider Ryu as a friend as such but I have never personally had any problems with him.

I would like to add: If anyone has issues with anybody on this forum and feel at all uncomfortable then please report it. There are more than enough staff members to report to, and you will be listened to. Thanks.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I would like to add: If anyone has issues with anybody on this forum and feel at all uncomfortable then please report it. There are more than enough staff members to report to, and you will be listened to. Thanks.

YES. Another issue I've been seeing as of late, is making complaints public. Obviously there are problems that need to be addressed publicly, like the situation with Ryu, or rather or issues stemming from the situation with Ryu. Some people have probably made legitimate complaints here and for whatever reason they feel the need to state it publicly which usually rallies people to involve themselves in matters that have nothing to do with them whatsoever. The place turns into a goddamn drama magnate, people get bitter, and nothing gets done. I think that's why some people feel that staff has been ignoring or attempting to sweep problems under the rug. And that simply isn't true. Communicate with us. Help us help you, etc.

 

[Winter]

should i move my other post here or

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I would like to add: If anyone has issues with anybody on this forum and feel at all uncomfortable then please report it. There are more than enough staff members to report to, and you will be listened to. Thanks.

the problem is that sometimes when people report a lot of shit by a person in particular for starting shit, the mods call it backseat modding and you get infracted for it, especially if a mod seems to be participating. it's hard to feel happy in a community when the moderation can punish you for complaining.

 

[Joker]

Ryu has done some stuff that makes me uncomfortable - most of the time I take it with a grain of salt, ignore it, and move on. But now and again, there's stuff that's just...too far. An example would be something he said to a member in the donator's section (and this is before we had so much of the current activity, i.e. some of the more adult topics), and he asked someone about some of their sexual habits. I won't mention who this was directed at, but it bothered me immensely for...well, obvious reasons, considering the circumstances at the time.

And this was brushed off at the time as "that's just Ryu being Ryu".

I don't like it, to put it simply.

 

[looneymoon]

YES. Another issue I've been seeing as of late, is making complaints public. Obviously there are problems that need to be addressed publicly, like the situation with Ryu, or rather or issues stemming from the situation with Ryu. Some people have probably made legitimate complaints here and for whatever reason they feel the need to state it publicly which usually rallies people to involve themselves in matters that have nothing to do with them whatsoever. The place turns into a goddamn drama magnate, people get bitter, and nothing gets done. I think that's why some people feel that staff has been ignoring or attempting to sweep problems under the rug. And that simply isn't true. Communicate with us. Help us help you, etc.

I just wanted to respond to this.

I never reported a post because it always seemed rather childish? If I ever had a problem with someone, I would take it up directly with them. I don't like intermediaries getting involved in my shit. Reporting is asking for just that. I'm not a child. I can handle issues without mods getting in the middle of it.

That said, I don't like people derailing threads with that kind of stuff either. Usually if it is a thread I was reading/enjoying, i would ask the parties to take it PM or whatever. Plus, if someone says something offensive publicly, it then becomes not only offensive to the individual but also potentially offensive to the rest of the forum. That creates even more problems.

Also, since many confrontations happen to be WITH mods, I can see why people reporting would feel uncomfortable. Members can't view the mod forums. By reporting, you create a thread in the mod forum. That gives the mod a place where he/she can defend themselves and possibly complain about the other forum member (within the forum space no less) without said member being any the wiser.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just saying why I think the system is flawed. I would hope that people were mature enough to sort out whatever beef they have privately imo. I just think PMs are probably a better/more comfortable option than the report button, if you really do need mod intervention.

 

[Lumina]

YES. Another issue I've been seeing as of late, is making complaints public.]

This is a matter that really gets me. Ever since I signed up here. Why people need to make drama public? It will never get me...but it does makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. These forums are supposed to be a Nice-place, and public drama is just...no.

As for Ryu well... personally I don't know him very much so probably my opinion is dull. But personally I see Ryu as a very serious person, so I have never taken his comments personally. Sometimes I don't get his jokes but, when I ask him he never does it in an arrogant way or something.

But that's my personal opinion on the matter.

 

[Octo]

I just wanted to respond to this.

I never reported a post because it always seemed rather childish? If I ever had a problem with someone, I would take it up directly with them. I don't like intermediaries getting involved in my shit. Reporting is asking for just that. I'm not a child. I can handle issues without mods getting in the middle of it.

I should clarify. I was talking about a situation where any attempt to resolve the issue through PM etc had failed. Also, if we're talking about harrasment and that is a phrase that has been mentioned, I don't want anyone to hesitate in reporting it because I have seen the damage silence can do in those situations.

Also, since many confrontations happen to be WITH mods, I can see why people reporting would feel uncomfortable. Members can't view the mod forums. By reporting, you create a thread in the mod forum. That gives the mod a place where he/she can defend themselves and possibly complain about the other forum member (within the forum space no less) without said member being any the wiser.

I understand this, but there are a few members of staff here that I honestly can't for the life of me see why they wouldn't be approachable (not going to name names but I think people know who I am talking about) If someone is concerned that a post would be flagged in the Mod forum then perhaps it is better to PM a Mod you are comfortable with first.

 

[Max Payne]

This is a matter that really gets me. Ever since I signed up here. Why people need to make drama public? It will never get me...but it does makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. These forums are supposed to be a Nice-place, and public drama is just...no.
.

Welcome to the forums!`

 

[Splintered]

I have no problems with him, he seems like a decent guy imo. I don't think he's a bad person, but I think the real problem is that he can be awkward. Like, that was the worst thing to say at that moment and it makes people uncomfortable. And there's an issue with him confronting his mistakes, by pretending be almost robotic and completely scientific. Like

"Hey could you not keep insulting X"
"I'm not insulting, I am simply showing you evidence and making a completely normal response." And nothing changes about the attitude because they say they are just being objective.

Nah dude, you are just being condescending. And it makes people not trust you. Although this is a problem that isn't just Ryu.

So I guess what I say is, from what little I've talked to him in debate threads, he's not a malicious guy. But has a problem of saying the wrong things and the wrong time and doesn't listen to when people point it out.

I've never had issues with him otherwise.

 

[Octo]

Welcome to the forums! the internet humanity!

Fixed

 

[Cookie Monster]

I just wanted to respond to this.

I never reported a post because it always seemed rather childish? If I ever had a problem with someone, I would take it up directly with them. I don't like intermediaries getting involved in my shit. Reporting is asking for just that. I'm not a child. I can handle issues without mods getting in the middle of it.

That said, I don't like people derailing threads with that kind of stuff either. Usually if it is a thread I was reading/enjoying, i would ask the parties to take it PM or whatever. Plus, if someone says something offensive publicly, it then becomes not only offensive to the individual but also potentially offensive to the rest of the forum. That creates even more problems.

Also, since many confrontations happen to be WITH mods, I can see why people reporting would feel uncomfortable. Members can't view the mod forums. By reporting, you create a thread in the mod forum. That gives the mod a place where he/she can defend themselves and possibly complain about the other forum member (within the forum space no less) without said member being any the wiser.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just saying why I think the system is flawed. I would hope that people were mature enough to sort out whatever beef they have privately imo. I just think PMs are probably a better/more comfortable option than the report button, if you really do need mod intervention.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure she wasn't talking about solely using the report button. PMs are completely fine. And if you can settle issues directly with a member privately, even better. But for those that are afraid or uncomfortable for whatever reason, don't hesitate to contact one of us. If you feel there is no one on staff you can speak with or if your concerns are about staff in general, then direct those concerns to the owner YopY/Cthulhu. Other than a little tentacle rape, I promise you he's completely harmless.

 

[Hisako]

Have you ever felt uncomfortable by posts he has made about you/your friends?

To be quite honest, I haven't observed anything out of the norms of the rest of the forum base. Sure, he's got a ridiculous syntax but again, asking for noodz and discussing sexual preferences is a universal language. Sort of.

Do you feel that he is abusing his powers when it suits him?

I have never seen anything like this, not blatantly anyway. If there is, someone has either misconstrued intent or reasoning for personal gain, or Ryu has been the master of subtlety and mind control and is secretly controlling the lot of us on puppet strings.

Do you feel that your being passed off when you complain with dismissive comments such as "You just don't get his humour"?

Paraphrasing, or sic? lol

I'm genuinely distressed by the fact that this whole argument has turned into 'us versus them, and them is not listening to us'. This leads on to the 'they started it' part, and the whole divide is really stressing me out. I support Octo's suggestions one bajillion percent, that the grievances should be taken to the private message system, as was initially dealt with between Bex and Ryu. But somehow this privately resolved grievance was taken up by other members and now people are out for blood, although by the sounds of it (and correct me if I'm wrong here) Bex didn't consider it resolved.

I've spent way too much time trying to empathise here, but bear with me: I've watched this drama unfold from the sidelines. In fact the first time I heard about it was from Ryu himself, and he relayed me to the threads on FFOF. The whole thing turned from a proposal to de-mod Ryu into some mud-flinging at a group of moderators because a group of people didn't consider their opinions heard. And to be quite frank, I thought there were some genuinely valid points for concern that just got buried under so much emotion, so much hate, that there was very little consideration between arguments. No compromises.

I mean I tried reading everyone's arguments and there are just the same things being said. It felt like a bombardment. I could not wrap my head around all of the points being made because there was simply so much to sift through. If I were in a mod position I would probably just curl up in my chair and wish for all of the people to stop shouting their opinions. (I guess that's why I've never been one in my entire life ) It seems to fall on deaf ears because there are just so many points that sound exactly the same, and it boggles the brain to respond in an encyclopaedic way to all of them.

This is why we have a representative system, right? This 'behind-closed-doors' system exists so the moderators can sort out all the needs of the community in some systematic way without having to quote-response to every complaint, not just so they can hand-wave off everyone else's opinions. It definitely does feel frustrating to not be privy to the ultimate decisions made and I can understand how if a decision doesn't agree with the majority of the forum community that they don't feel like they're being heard, but it doesn't mean that the mods are necessarily ignoring them.

"His humor" in this case, is part of behaviour that we as a community have gotten used to perpetuating. The majority of us have become accustomed to it so much that, I think, sometimes we forget that the interactions we make in these forums aren't exactly something we'd do out in the streets in actual public. We've accepted these things so much that, when someone does actually get hurt by them, we don't really know what to do, how to take care of the situation. (I have an example for this, it's not directly related to this particular situation but it's got the same vibe. I'll throw it out there once I make sure I've got all my facts right).
The point I'm getting to is the intent. I'm fairly sure Ryu did not intend to sexually harass Bex. I'm not getting any indication that the moderators are intending to ignore the pleas of the forum base. They may be interpreting the needs differently, and of course they probably are treating the issue a little more lax than they should be. But the moderators aren't "abusing powers" any more than the regular forum members are "shit stirring". We're expressing legitimate grievances, and the moderators are responding in a way they genuinely think is adequate.

And if Ryu is really such a repeat offender against the basic human rights, how come people haven't directly confronted him over it privately, one-on-one?

 

[Ghost X]

Have I missed something? I haven't noticed anything I'd perceive as bad from Ryu, except for one time where he (and seemingly pretty much everyone else on TLS) said to me something similar to this:

"Hey could you not keep insulting X"

Where I replied something like this:

"I'm not insulting, I am simply showing you evidence and making a completely normal response."

So is Ryu being a "dick" like me somewhere? Awesome! Can someone post a link to the offending article(s)?

 

[Celes Chere]

Um.. I suppose I'll just copy paste what I said on FFOF regarding the Ryu drama:

I actually have no problem with Ryu, so I'm not trying to bring harm or a bad name to him. I just think that it's silly the way the staff has responded to it, and I think that members are starting to be so vocal especially for what was said here. (As seen in L's sig) I will admit the assumption Ryu would not apologize is not proveable. However I wish the staff would admit to being wrong as well. Downplaying the importance of the memberbase is just plain rude. And there's also your own assumptions that everyone with views against Ryu and what happened, are people that hate Ryu which just isn't true. Removing Ryu from staff might be harsh, but if some people have such complaints about a staff member at least give them a chance to explain why they feel that way so they feel like they are at least being listened to. I really do think it is more than "L and frends " that want Ryu off of staff. Some members even expressed wanting to leave the Forum because of it.

That being said, I find that members here DO sometimes single out Ryu because they dislike him or hold a grudge and I find it to be very annoying. It gets irritating seeing "Ryu is a pedo" "Ryu get your head out of your ass" "Ryu blah blah" in every god damn thread. On the other hand, these past few issues have not been with only the same members that have a dislike for Ryu. Many members that don't mind Ryu, found his actions to be wrong including myself. I do think however, it was blown out of proportion and it's a shame we couldn't have discussed this calmly and without insulting one another. I like Ryu enough to consider him my friend but do I agree with his actions...? No. I think there should be a consequence. Kinda like how in the LTD thread when Tres (who I'd consider to be one of my very best friends) bitched out another member. We all knew it was wrong, but I won't say "yeah don't warn him 'cause he's my friend" because that's extremely stupid. I think a simple apology will not work in this situation, since people have reoccuring concerns with Ryu and want something more to be done. It is not my place to say what that something is as I don't really care, but I do agree that something should happen besides a slap on the wrist.
I will go on to say that Ryu's statement about Bex on FFOF saying that she shouldn't have posted the picture at all if she didn't want anyone to see it was rude, made his apology seem even more forced (even if that was not the intention), and just gives more reason for something to be done. That doesn't mean I am jumping on the "OMG BAN RYU!" bandwagon nor am I trying to play this silly taking sides game. I just want what's right for everyone, and it's not about one side winning or whatever.

whew

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I know this is a sensitive subject, and I know that no one wants to take a step backwards, but I've been standing duty for a few days. Can anyone fill me in one what happened, or at least give me the gist? You can feel free to PM me about it if you don't want it all on front street again.

No I am not trying to catch up on gossip, it's just that this is a big deal and it's kinda my job to assist in handling it??? I'd like to but I have no idea what's going on.

 

[Max Payne]

I know this is a sensitive subject, and I know that no one wants to take a step backwards, but I've been standing duty for a few days. Can anyone fill me in one what happened, or at least give me the gist? You can feel free to PM me about it if you don't want it all on front street again.

No I am not trying to catch up on gossip, it's just that this is a big deal and it's kinda my job to assist in handling it??? I'd like to but I have no idea what's going on.

I have a thread for you

 

[Alex]

YES. Another issue I've been seeing as of late, is making complaints public. Obviously there are problems that need to be addressed publicly, like the situation with Ryu, or rather or issues stemming from the situation with Ryu. Some people have probably made legitimate complaints here and for whatever reason they feel the need to state it publicly which usually rallies people to involve themselves in matters that have nothing to do with them whatsoever. The place turns into a goddamn drama magnate, people get bitter, and nothing gets done. I think that's why some people feel that staff has been ignoring or attempting to sweep problems under the rug. And that simply isn't true. Communicate with us. Help us help you, etc.

Like I said in the other thread, I'll type up a better response when I'm sober tomorrow. But I'll preface it tonight as saying that it has little to do with any Ryu related drama and a whole lot more to do with why people don't feel comfortable reporting things to staff.

 

[Tifabelle]

I'm on the same page as Tiff, and Splintered as well. I don't think Ryu has malicious intents, I think he just doesn't know what's appropriate, or when to stfu, or when a joke has stopped being funny.

And I've done LPs with Ryu and talked with him outside the forum on IRC, if that validates my opinion in any way mako. I have no personal grudges against Ryu, but that doesn't make his recent actions ok. And what's even more infuriating is that when I voice my opinion, staff brush it off as unimportant and tell me that my opinion doesn't matter. This is a community and what happens to our members should be the concern of the community. That doesn't mean I approve of interpersonal problems between members should be spread all over the board, but that does mean that we all have a right to be offended by a mod's actions against other members.

It really concerns me that the staff were so unwilling to listen to its members and some of the responses were a tad infuriating. Then you come here and say that we should feel free and express our concerns. Well, which is it? Either our concerns are important or they're not. And if you're going to say in one place that they're not, why should I believe they aren't falling on deaf ears. I have nothing against staff as a whole. In fact, I like most of the staff.

And Ryu's comment about Bex this morning was appalling. It basically reads as though he believes Bex was in the wrong and he only apologized because he was told to. So basically, he still doesn't think he's done anything wrong, despite what he may have told his fellow staff members, he doesn't seemed to have learned anything of value.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Alright, I got a summary of what happened and read the related thread to it. This is my take on it based on what I know. This isn't meant to be an 'end all shutthefuckup' post, but this is my two cents on it so far.

Honestly, I never had any real problem with Ryu. No sort of biases, no dislike, no anything, really. I thought he was a good staff member who always pulled his weight when it came to running the site. Personally, and not professionally, I always thought he uh, said some creepy stuff from time to time. This isn't some bandwagoning type thing because others may have felt the same, no I mean, I've always felt this way. It's definitely not the type of stuff you say to ladies??? But I figured that if there was a mutual feeling of 'naw you just playin' well I mean it's cool.

But this business with Bex and the resulting firefight is just inexcusable pretty much. I am an old chivarous dude at heart and as much as I love seeing ladies, I have always respected their right to withdraw. So I mean it's pretty fucked up that Ryu would call attention to such a sensitive matter when Bex tried to redact her post. I mean this is pretty much the textbook definition of 'this is why we can't have nice things'. And I don't mean like just boobies or whatnot. I mean the fundamentals of stuff like trust, friendship, and the ability to share things without someone feeling weird about it.

I hate feeling weird about shit. I like to be able to do something and have the people around me do stuff without a lingering 'should I have done that' vibe. That kills community and trust.

So why is it cool for someone to do something like that? Ryu apologized but I don't think that's quite enough. I am not sure whether destaffing him or no at this point but like I mean, really? This is fucked up.

 

[Ghost X]

Wow, okay, I am missing a whole lot of shit apparently. Ignore my last post, if you haven't already .

 

[Dashell]

Alright... take TWO on this post... which I'm saving in notepad just in case TLS goes down again.


Now...


I think it's important for those who want Ryu to be reprimanded to say how. Don't just tell the staff you're upset and appalled because... well that's obvious. Post some suggestions. I mean some of you have said destaffed and some have even said banned. Maybe it's still possible to work out a suggestion that most people can agree on. At this point it's obvious that what he did was wrong, so there's no point in discussing that anymore.

And I just want to explain something to some people.

I think the problem isn't so much what Ryu did, but that he shows no remorse for it. He doesn't see what he did as wrong. This is obvious by what he said to Bex earlier today. If he was really sorry and apologized and promised it wouldn't happen again and was sincere, that's another story. But a forced apology and then insulting Bex the very next day... well that's a problem. I think that's the other important matter at hand here.

That's all I'm going to really say on the matter since I wasn't here when the shit hit the fan, but I wanted to clarify that since I think those points are getting mixed up.