I think @Clement's point about "The force/powerful force users comes from lineage" being a false premise is that looking at the movies alone (without considering behind the scenes ideas or word of god comments on the subject) and what they show on-screen alone, that narrative was never there, it was retroactively added by fandom after word of god said so.
Would you mind directing me to some of these behind the scenes stories?
It's right out of the films. Force ability is not solely dependent on genetic lineage, it is actually very unusual for force wielders to have a genetic legacy, because Jedi do not typically have children, yet new force sensitives continue to be born. The vast majority of force wielders don't need a specific lineage. So presenting that as something new in this film is inaccurate.
I think that's just a matter of opinion, and it really comes down to the age of the cast like Tres said. They wanted to give the big three their heroic ends to their journey, so that's the route that they took. I, for one, couldn't be happier about it.
True re matter of opinion. All I'm saying is that the route they took was a choice, not an inevitability or the only valid option. Neither of us can say to each other 'no, this was the only way' if we didn't like the route they took.
They were pivotal in not ONLY being exceptional Force Users who held a prominent role in the shaping of the Galaxy, but were also put into the role of being the figureheads of everything that the Jedi legacy would ever be moving forward from that point. Additionally, they were the most powerful, and most trained users of the Force, since everything that had come before then was properly destroyed with the deaths of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, & Sidious. The Skywalkers had officially inherited the Jedi. Full stop.
Leia's not trained at all, she doesn't even believe she has the force. 'Strong' is not 'strongest' or 'only'. They are powerful force sensitives, but there's no necessity to make them the most powerful ever, or the peak of their ability. There was no reason they couldn't train people that could surpass them, or that more Force sensitives might turn up.
Whether or not anyone bested him in lightsaber combat when they had more training than he did (since the Jedi held him back intentionally out of fear) isn't really the point here. Anakin was bested by others, but (to use a term from The Last Jedi) his, "raw, untamed power" in the Force was absolutely unmatched by anyone who had ever lived in the recorded history of the Jedi. Everyone who ever bested him – Dooku, Obi-Wan, Palpatine – he eventually overcame and killed... with the SOLE exception of his son.
The Jedi Council passed him over for promotion due to his emotional issues and ties to Palpatine, but I never got the impression they restricted his training. I could be wrong. Obi Wan jabs at him for not training in swordsmanship at the start of Clones, and he thinks he's already the equal of Yoda (proved untrue by the end of the film.)
Obi Wan threw the fight, Palpatine was surprise attacked from behind (and still killed him), he couldn't beat Dooku on his own raw potential and needed the Darkside power up.
We see Anakin Skywalker at his peak at the end of Sith, and Obi Wan is right there matching him strike for strike. They're pretty much treated as dead equals the whole way through (including in raw power in that Force Push deadlock) Anakin thinking he is more powerful than he is is the exact reason he fails.
While his bloodline is certainly an advantage, Star Wars was not the story of 'only people with special bloodlines do special things'.
Not having a special bloodline is the norm, not something that rebels against the status quo.
Funny thing with Poe is
one of his established skills is keeping confidential information safe, that was the whole reason TFA happened. Normally I'm totally on board with the 'chain of command' side of the argument, but when your situation is so hopeless that people are deserting, you're watching your escort ships explode and most of your crew thinks that they're on course for inevitable death, that's a pretty good time to explain at least that there is some kind of plan.
They were pivotal in not ONLY being exceptional Force Users who held a prominent role in the shaping of the Galaxy, but were also put into the role of being the figureheads of everything that the Jedi legacy would ever be moving forward from that point. Additionally, they were the most powerful, and most trained users of the Force, since everything that had come before then was properly destroyed with the deaths of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, & Sidious. The Skywalkers had officially inherited the Jedi. Full stop.
Leia's not trained at all, she doesn't even believe she has the force. 'Strong' is not 'strongest' or 'only'. They are powerful force sensitives, but there's no necessity to make them the most powerful ever, or the peak of their ability. There was no reason they couldn't train people that could surpass them, or that more Force sensitives might turn up.
Well, Leia's in the same place that Luke was in IV at the end of VI where she definitely believes that she has the same power – she even uses it to know that Luke didn't die when the Death Star II was destroyed. There's zero indication that she's totally untrained in the 30 years between VI & VII, and in fact, there's the opposite. We never see her get formal training (and the new supplemental material suggests that she's never done the isolationish Jedi Academy-type training like Luke did) but given the end of RotJ and the Force powers she's used in VII & VIII, all the indication is that Luke at least taught her about her Force powers and the basics of using them.
Also, there WAS no reason to make them the most powerful ever, but that's what George Lucas decided to do in Episode I did with Anakin's Force-conception. Their family are established as being the most powerful Force Users, and they're left with the legacy of being the only trained Jedi.
No one's ever saying that other Force sensitives won't show up and be trained by them, but given those other two points, there's no indication that anyone could ever surpass them. Anakin was only ever bested by people who were more highly trained than he was – again with the exception of Luke, who's the one holding that Skywalker legacy at the end or RotJ.
Whether or not anyone bested him in lightsaber combat when they had more training than he did (since the Jedi held him back intentionally out of fear) isn't really the point here. Anakin was bested by others, but (to use a term from The Last Jedi) his, "raw, untamed power" in the Force was absolutely unmatched by anyone who had ever lived in the recorded history of the Jedi. Everyone who ever bested him – Dooku, Obi-Wan, Palpatine – he eventually overcame and killed... with the SOLE exception of his son.
The Jedi Council passed him over for promotion due to his emotional issues and ties to Palpatine, but I never got the impression they restricted his training. I could be wrong. Obi Wan jabs at him for not training in swordsmanship at the start of Clones, and he thinks he's already the equal of Yoda (proved untrue by the end of the film.)
Obi Wan threw the fight, Palpatine was surprise attacked from behind (and still killed him), he couldn't beat Dooku on his own raw potential and needed the Darkside power up.
We see Anakin Skywalker at his peak at the end of Sith, and Obi Wan is right there matching him strike for strike. They're pretty much treated as dead equals the whole way through (including in raw power in that Force Push deadlock) Anakin thinking he is more powerful than he is is the exact reason he fails.
Again, this and The Last Jedi focus a lot on the issues and pitfalls of hubris. There's a big difference between Anakin being the most powerful, and Anakin being unbeatable. He's definitely the first, and not at all the second. As I said earlier though, he's only ever been bested by people with more training than him, with the exception of Luke, and Luke's the one holding the unbeatably powerful legacy at the end of RotJ.
I mean, that's true but ONLY of the non-Force characters.
The Star Wars films are all about the singular pillar of the Skywalkers and ONLY the Skywalkers against all odds – (because they're The Skywalker Saga). Together, Vader & Palpatine overthrew the entire Jedi Order and supplanted them with the Site. Then Luke (with the help of Anakin) overthrew both of the Sith. The Skywalkers have ultimately always overcome literally everything and been left at the center of the machinations of the whole galaxy.
one of his established skills is keeping confidential information safe, that was the whole reason TFA happened. Normally I'm totally on board with the 'chain of command' side of the argument, but when your situation is so hopeless that people are deserting, you're watching your escort ships explode and most of your crew thinks that they're on course for inevitable death, that's a pretty good time to explain at least that there is some kind of plan.
Well, he was trusted to go and retrieve a map to Luke, but he's also been subjected to torture and interrogation and spent time as a captive of the First Order, which is how they found out that BB-8 had the information. No one in the Resistance really knows how much effort it took to get that information other than him. What's more relevant is his recent insubordination, because the person who trusted him to do those things was Leia, and she's the one who demoted him from Commander to Captain. If she lacked faith in his ability to be a commander, there's no reason that the Vice-Admiral taking her place is going to place any trust in him whatsoever.
Well, he was trusted to go and retrieve a map to Luke, but he's also been subjected to torture and interrogation and spent time as a captive of the First Order, which is how they found out that BB-8 had the information. No one in the Resistance really knows how much effort it took to get that information other than him. What's more relevant is his recent insubordination, because the person who trusted him to do those things was Leia, and she's the one who demoted him from Commander to Captain. If she lacked faith in his ability to be a commander, there's no reason that the Vice-Admiral taking her place is going to place any trust in him whatsoever.
I absolutely agree, she is under no OBLIGATION, but the reason for his demotion was his hot headed and impassioned attitude, so it seems strange that the Vice Admiral who is well aware of his reputation would not keep him pacified somehow, especially when he comes to her looking for assurance that they weren't just waiting for the inevitable. And it's not like the plan was all that secret.
There's a lot of crew involved in preparing troop transports.
Sorry if this question has already been brought up. There's a lot of tl:dr here and I'm rather pressed for time at the moment, but NC's video does bring up a valid point:
why didn't Holdo simply tell Po about Leia's evacuation plan in the first place, rather than keeping it a secret, and risk sparking a mutiny? (around 14:20)
I still feel like the Korra approach would have received a better response than the one we have now. Leia's backing the resistance but not as actively involved as she used to be because she has political responsibilities, Luke is training force users at a secret location because he doesn't want to be dragged into the conflict (training Jedi, not child soldiers to be exploited by either side), Han is still Han. There's d still be complaining, but I think most likely less than there is now.
Were the target audience only "Star Wars" fans, I'd agree with you they could have gone this route. Given, however, that this particular franchise is the casual moviegoer's equivalent of what Mario, "Tetris" or "Candy Crush Saga" is for casual gamers, the most logical approach to the franchise's continued growth and success was to avoid having people leave theatres asking where Luke was.
The same way most people don't want to go vote unless it's for the President, most weren't going to put up with giving their time and money to "a bunch of nobodies" while Luke was ignoring the latest galactic conflict -- unless his doing so was made a central element and mystery of the narrative, as was ultimately done with this new trilogy. Whether casual or hardcore fans, people would have been complaining that the heir apparent to stewardship of the galaxy's stability (for the reasons X went over) was off playing with his lightsaber while worlds burned around him.
Granted, some are still doing that, but at least they got an answer here for why he did it and the matter wasn't left as a convenient (for the filmmakers), infuriating (for audiences) loose end. Like it or hate it, it was resolved, and everyone can move on to new things.
Really, it's considerations like this and the aging of the actors that required Disney tackle this right out of the starting gate. Certainly they could have still gone about it in a way that felt more satisfying to folks disappointed with where the road took our classic heroes, but I can't say I blame them for not wanting to do that either.
Clem said:
I still feel like the commonly pushed narrative that TLJ somehow 'gives the Force back to the people' or 'shows that you don't have to be from a specific genetic lineage to be a powerful force user' is operating under a false premise. And it's a very common viewpoint in the reactions to the film. None of the Skywalkers ever actually were the most powerful Force User around in the setting, except Luke when all the others were dead. The idea that you need to be of this bloodline to change the galaxy was never true. Nothing was ever 'trapped'. The lineage was important to Luke, but no one else cared.
I know X has already gone over this at length, but I just want to quickly revisit it before making a point in response to one of his posts, because it will tie back in.
Anakin was unquestionably the most powerful Force user, and that was as overt as it gets. Then Anakin's son -- who seemingly becomes even more powerful -- became the last trained Force user (not just Jedi). Anakin's daughter was also shown to have an affinity with the Force, and into the hands of she and her brother fell the reigns of the future, for both the Jedi and the galaxy.
In point of fact -- and I'm surprised this hasn't come up in this discussion -- the mandate to take those reigns was handed to them by Yoda as he died:
"When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke."
The lineage was of unsurpassed import in just the movies George Lucas made, without ever getting into his comments that lay outside the films or anything that was said or done after Lucas's movies were finished.
Now, with these points revisited and emphasized again, I want to make another:
X said:
You can boil the entire thing down to two scenes: one in Episode I and the other in Episode VI that bookend the entire theme of the Skywalkers essentially being THE Royal Family of the Force as something that was definitively established within the films:
The concept is first introduced in Return of the Jedi with Luke's speech to Leia about,
As the two of them are the only living children of Darth Vader, and Luke is the last Jedi – the legacy of the Jedi lies specifically with them for anything from that point on. They were pivotal in not ONLY being exceptional Force Users who held a prominent role in the shaping of the Galaxy, but were also put into the role of being the figureheads of everything that the Jedi legacy would ever be moving forward from that point. Additionally, they were the most powerful, and most trained users of the Force, since everything that had come before then was properly destroyed with the deaths of Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, & Sidious. The Skywalkers had officially inherited the Jedi. Full stop.
Then, when the prequels came out, Anakin was revealed to have been conceived by the Force itself – making him the most powerful Force user of any Jedi EVER in The Phantom Menace.
Whether or not anyone bested him in lightsaber combat when they had more training than he did (since the Jedi held him back intentionally out of fear) isn't really the point here. Anakin was bested by others, but (to use a term from The Last Jedi) his, "raw, untamed power" in the Force was absolutely unmatched by anyone who had ever lived in the recorded history of the Jedi. Everyone who ever bested him – Dooku, Obi-Wan, Palpatine – he eventually overcame and killed... with the SOLE exception of his son. On top of that, because of the introduction of the concept of midi-chlorians, we were given more of a basis to Luke's dialogue about, "the Force running strong in [the Skywalker] family" which essentially gifted the status of this unmatched Force potential to the Skywalker family – who came to inherit the Jedi order.
With a monopoly on both Force potential AND extant Force training, the Skywalkers were the royal family of the Force, that no one else could ever hold a candle to by the end of VI. That's where the movies placed them, without ANY EU or supplemental material at all. The legacy of the Force being funneled into a single bloodline despite everything else was what I-VI did, which is why VIII breaking away from it within that story is a big deal, because there was absolutely nothing that could've dethroned the Skywalker legacy on its own. They had EVERYTHING, and the biggest events in the Galaxy were all shaped around them.
That's why people keep talking about this, because those themes ARE there in the films.
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet either, but there's a reason
for "The Force Awakens" begins with Luke's "The Force is strong in my family" speech -- a speech that isn't in the film itself. The filmmakers knew what moviegoers understood "Star Wars" to be about: the Skywalkers.
All I'm saying is that the route they took was a choice, not an inevitability or the only valid option. Neither of us can say to each other 'no, this was the only way' if we didn't like the route they took.
It wasn't the only route available, but can one make the case that it wasn't among the more sensible given the layman's expectations for the franchise and the mortality of its iconic faces?
'Strong' is not 'strongest' or 'only'. They are powerful force sensitives, but there's no necessity to make them the most powerful ever, or the peak of their ability. There was no reason they couldn't train people that could surpass them, or that more Force sensitives might turn up.
Ironically, you're making Disney's case for them regarding the new trilogy. It was Lucas who established both "strongest" and "only."
Those "people that could surpass them"
(or at least inherit their significance) came from Disney's time owning the franchise. Lucas had envisioned that if there were to be a third trilogy, it would star Luke's offspring.
Really, the only reason this debate can even be had is that the Lucasfilm Story Group under Disney broke with Lucas's own established conventions and themes for "Star Wars."
Sorry if this question has already been brought up. There's a lot of tl:dr here and I'm rather pressed for time at the moment, but NC's video does bring up a valid point:
why didn't Holdo simply tell Po about Leia's evacuation plan in the first place, rather than keeping it a secret, and risk sparking a mutiny? (around 14:20)
She wasn't under any obligation to share information with him, whereas when he learned about the possible mechanics of the Hyperspace tracking system, Poe WAS obligated to share that information with her as his commanding officer.
Well, he was trusted to go and retrieve a map to Luke, but he's also been subjected to torture and interrogation and spent time as a captive of the First Order, which is how they found out that BB-8 had the information. No one in the Resistance really knows how much effort it took to get that information other than him. What's more relevant is his recent insubordination, because the person who trusted him to do those things was Leia, and she's the one who demoted him from Commander to Captain. If she lacked faith in his ability to be a commander, there's no reason that the Vice-Admiral taking her place is going to place any trust in him whatsoever.
I absolutely agree, she is under no OBLIGATION, but the reason for his demotion was his hot headed and impassioned attitude, so it seems strange that the Vice Admiral who is well aware of his reputation would not keep him pacified somehow, especially when he comes to her looking for assurance that they weren't just waiting for the inevitable. And it's not like the plan was all that secret.
There's a lot of crew involved in preparing troop transports.
Well, his demotion from Commander to Captain was for taking rash action that resulted in unnecessary loss of life and destruction of their bombers and fighters as a result of flagrantly disobeying a direct order. He's also grounded as a result of the rest of their fighters being destroyed, so really the obvious issues with Poe had been dealt with by the time Holdo takes command.
Holdo also has 400 other crew members, and while we only SEE Poe, we know he's not the only thing that she's dealing with (thanks to Rose's statement about deserters). He's not important enough to make exceptions for, nor is he even remotely trustworthy enough to involve with the plan. His order to remain at his post and await further instructions is basically sufficient to've dealt with him (and likely other any other individual who wasn't just went to the brig), because if he can't do that, she can be more strict, and if he can, it's the correct action to take.
The only reason that he storms the bridge (that he's been ordered off of) is when their final capital ship is destroyed, and everyone is left on the Raddus to buy time for Finn & Rose's plan that he's secretly running. That's the point at which point Holdo gives him the line from Leia, “Hope is like the sun. If you only believe it when you see it–" which Poe finishes "–You’ll never make it through the night.” which seemed to placate him. She dealt with that situation properly as well. He accepts it and is leaving the Bridge when he sees a monitor indicating that they're fueling transports.
It's upon learning what they're doing that he gets angry about it. (If anything, she could've just stunned him and locked him in the brig at that point, but that doesn't really push our narrative or character developments so she just orders him off of the Bridge as a final warning). It's after that where it comes to mutiny.
The point is, there's still no junction where she's obligated or even helped by sharing information with him, given the issues he presents. The more he knows, the more problematic he is, because the more leverage he has to mount a mutiny by gathering people to follow him that will ultimately lead to sacrifices that they believe are necessary, but are avoidable. If presented with "run away and die with her or mount some sort of crazy odds assault against the enemy with Poe" – he wins that through charismatic appeal the same way that he did with destroying the Juggernaut. It was the wrong move too make, but it ended up saving them through dumb luck. If she's going to keep command, he NEEDS to be kept out. There's literally no advantage in telling him anything before it's too far along for him to object, because he becomes a problem any time he doesn't agree with orders, and he can't object something he doesn't know. The less capable of any action he is, the better – and that's where Holdo places him.
The bigger question is: If you expect her to've shared that information with him, why don't you expect Poe to have shared the information about the Hyperspace Tracking System with her? She's his commanding officer, and the fate of the fleet seems to depend on it, and him not doing that is exponentially more problematic than her cutting him out.
Also, how long're we gonna spoiler tag for TLJ in this thread?
Should we edit the title and open up for full spoilers?
In fansites like /r/StarWars they play by the rule of spoilers being fair game once the movie gets its home releases, so we could drop the spoiler tags once the DB/DVDs come out? Or is it waiting too long?
In fansites like /r/StarWars they play by the rule of spoilers being fair game once the movie gets its home releases, so we could drop the spoiler tags once the DB/DVDs come out? Or is it waiting too long?
About Episode IX, what title would you want it to have? My personal pick would be The New Order.
On a literal sense The New Order would allude to recent new balance in the in force with awaking of more force users in the galaxy as well as Rey & Kylo being new force powerhouses of their respetice side after the death of Snoke and Luke.
On a meta sense The New Order would allude to the evolution in the storytelling status quo that The Last Jedi brough that's been discussed pages ago.
I'm happy to stay in spoilers until the sequel comes out, I just slipped up. Sorry, thread.
Well, Leia's in the same place that Luke was in IV at the end of VI where she definitely believes that she has the same power – she even uses it to know that Luke didn't die when the Death Star II was destroyed. There's zero indication that she's totally untrained in the 30 years between VI & VII, and in fact, there's the opposite. We never see her get formal training (and the new supplemental material suggests that she's never done the isolationish Jedi Academy-type training like Luke did) but given the end of RotJ and the Force powers she's used in VII & VIII, all the indication is that Luke at least taught her about her Force powers and the basics of using them.
Oh, sure, but by the time of ROTJ she had no particular training, so 'most trained' is not a high bar. Luke did not overcome the Emperor by being more powerful than him. He needed the Darkside powerup to defeat Vader.
Anakin Skywalker is practically the poster child for 'Bloodline is not enough'. His Bloodline is as pure as it gets, his father is The Force Itself, and the prequels are a catalogue of his failures. Every time he tries to overpower someone, he fails, and the last thing he says before his greatest loss is 'You underestimate my power...' His potential raw power and bloodline is unrivalled, yet he keeps losing. He never becomes more powerful than Palpatine in the end.
Neither does Luke. His potential is huge, but he might easily not reach it, just like his father.
I mean, that's true but ONLY of the non-Force characters.
If you think that's true, you're seriously underselling the likes of Obi Wan, Palpatine, and Yoda, none of whom have special bloodlines we know about. As well as the 9,997 other Jedi, because the majority of those have no special bloodline. Obi Wan does all the plot moving in Clones while Anakin is loitering in fields. He is very far from the only Force Sensitive that does important things.
Were the target audience only "Star Wars" fans, I'd agree with you they could have gone this route. Given, however, that this particular franchise is the casual moviegoer's equivalent of what Mario, "Tetris" or "Candy Crush Saga" is for casual gamers, the most logical approach to the franchise's continued growth and success was to avoid having people leave theatres asking where Luke was.
The same way most people don't want to go vote unless it's for the President, most weren't going to put up with giving their time and money to "a bunch of nobodies" while Luke was ignoring the latest galactic conflict -- unless his doing so was made a central element and mystery of the narrative, as was ultimately done with this new trilogy. Whether casual or hardcore fans, people would have been complaining that the heir apparent to stewardship of the galaxy's stability (for the reasons X went over) was off playing with his lightsaber while worlds burned around him.
Granted, some are still doing that, but at least they got an answer here for why he did it and the matter wasn't left as a convenient (for the filmmakers), infuriating (for audiences) loose end. Like it or hate it, it was resolved, and everyone can move on to new things.
It's not a binary option of one or the other. Even casual fans understand that people get old. They're still complaining about exactly that, because there are dozens of ways to cede the spotlight without killing all the old guard. "Pass on what you have learned" implies that there will be someone to pass it on to, no?
For what it's worth, I'm not particularly upset by the idea of this Luke, I just think it wasn't well executed.
The prequels establish that is is actually routine for force wielders to have no special bloodline, Anakin is unusual for having children at all. It is VERY unusual for Force sensitivity to require a special bloodline.
Yet so much commentary on this film presents it as revolutionary for force users to not have a special bloodline. ??????
Well, the Prequels hammer home that Jedi Do Not Have Kids! So I can easily imagine it being that the Force would run strong in families of strong Force users. It's just that the strong Force users in the the prequels never have kids (except for Anakin and we know how his kids turn out) so it's not something anyone thought to bring up since they literally didn't know about it.
The only thing the prequels tell us about inherited Force sensitivity is that parents don't have to be sensitive to the Force for their kids to be. But that has nothing to do with the kids of parents who are Force sensitive since we never see them.
The prequels establish that is is actually routine for force wielders to have no special bloodline, Anakin is unusual for having children at all. It is VERY unusual for Force sensitivity to require a special bloodline.
Yet so much commentary on this film presents it as revolutionary for force users to not have a special bloodline. ??????
I guess I haven't seen those reactions, though I'm sure they're out there -- and that would certainly make for a fundamental misunderstanding. What's revolutionary about the film is that it is shifting the "Star Wars" films -- not Force sensitivity within them -- away from focusing on a particular special bloodline.
Well, his demotion from Commander to Captain was for taking rash action that resulted in unnecessary loss of life and destruction of their bombers and fighters as a result of flagrantly disobeying a direct order. He's also grounded as a result of the rest of their fighters being destroyed, so really the obvious issues with Poe had been dealt with by the time Holdo takes command.
Actually, he was NOT grounded. He was given explicit permission to fly before the resistance's entire fighter contingent was wiped out by Ben. Also, you point out, he's known for rash action.
Holdo also has 400 other crew members, and while we only SEE Poe, we know he's not the only thing that she's dealing with (thanks to Rose's statement about deserters). He's not important enough to make exceptions for, nor is he even remotely trustworthy enough to involve with the plan. His order to remain at his post and await further instructions is basically sufficient to've dealt with him (and likely other any other individual who wasn't just went to the brig), because if he can't do that, she can be more strict, and if he can, it's the correct action to take.
Except he approaches her looking for reassurance that there is a plan, and her response is to be confrontational about it. Confusingly, later, AFTER HIS MUTINY, she expresses that she likes him. It really comes across is that she LIKES his impulsiveness and hated when he was trying to be respectful.
The only reason that he storms the bridge (that he's been ordered off of) is when their final capital ship is destroyed, and everyone is left on the Raddus to buy time for Finn & Rose's plan that he's secretly running. That's the point at which point Holdo gives him the line from Leia, “Hope is like the sun. If you only believe it when you see it–" which Poe finishes "–You’ll never make it through the night.” which seemed to placate him. She dealt with that situation properly as well. He accepts it and is leaving the Bridge when he sees a monitor indicating that they're fueling transports.
If she has LEAD with that, instead of the weirdly antagonistic first encounter, I would say she would have handled it properly. But again, that first confrontation is so different from every other action or interaction Holdo has with anyone else, including talking about Stunned Poe, it seems forced for the sake of the plot.
It's upon learning what they're doing that he gets angry about it. (If anything, she could've just stunned him and locked him in the brig at that point, but that doesn't really push our narrative or character developments so she just orders him off of the Bridge as a final warning). It's after that where it comes to mutiny.
The point is, there's still no junction where she's obligated or even helped by sharing information with him, given the issues he presents. The more he knows, the more problematic he is, because the more leverage he has to mount a mutiny by gathering people to follow him that will ultimately lead to sacrifices that they believe are necessary, but are avoidable. If presented with "run away and die with her or mount some sort of crazy odds assault against the enemy with Poe" – he wins that through charismatic appeal the same way that he did with destroying the Juggernaut. It was the wrong move too make, but it ended up saving them through dumb luck. If she's going to keep command, he NEEDS to be kept out. There's literally no advantage in telling him anything before it's too far along for him to object, because he becomes a problem any time he doesn't agree with orders, and he can't object something he doesn't know. The less capable of any action he is, the better – and that's where Holdo places him.
I'm not asking that she tell him the full details of the plan. Simply telling him there is a plan and giving him busywork would have sufficed.
The bigger question is: If you expect her to've shared that information with him, why don't you expect Poe to have shared the information about the Hyperspace Tracking System with her? She's his commanding officer, and the fate of the fleet seems to depend on it, and him not doing that is exponentially more problematic than her cutting him out.
He should have shared the information, I agree, but that initial antagonistic confrontation already got him thinking of her as unwilling to listen. I'm far from saying Poe is blameless in this, but Holdo seems to actively antagonize him for no reason in their initial conversation despite in her own words really liking him AFTER he's staged a mutiny against her. That's the part of the movie where the writing is weakest. Not Holdo not telling him the plan, but Holdo's apparent opinion change Re: Poe towards the better AFTER his mutiny.
Sorry to jump out of quote-replies to ya, Clement Rage, but I think that these two pieces do a fantastically good job of summing up the points that I'm getting at overall about the film, especially in regards to how The Last Jedi breaks away from the royal legacy theme. Some of them are a bit more of a meta-analysis of the message of the film itself, but still really important to contextually understand for the sake of why people keep coming back to how different they are.
Also, everyone should read them, because they're excellent.
Well, his demotion from Commander to Captain was for taking rash action that resulted in unnecessary loss of life and destruction of their bombers and fighters as a result of flagrantly disobeying a direct order. He's also grounded as a result of the rest of their fighters being destroyed, so really the obvious issues with Poe had been dealt with by the time Holdo takes command.
Actually, he was NOT grounded. He was given explicit permission to fly before the resistance's entire fighter contingent was wiped out by Ben. Also, you point out, he's known for rash action.
Poorly phrased on my part. Bolded for better emphasis. The point is she doesn't need to worry about him taking off in a fighter and doing anything rash, so the main issue with him is off the table.
Except he approaches her looking for reassurance that there is a plan, and her response is to be confrontational about it. Confusingly, later, AFTER HIS MUTINY, she expresses that she likes him. It really comes across is that she LIKES his impulsiveness and hated when he was trying to be respectful.
This is to address the fact that Poe NEEDS to learn to respect the chain of authority – especially after being demoted for not doing so. That's why she opens by correcting the fact that he's a Captain and not a Commander when he introduces himself. His first conversation involves lightly attempting to side-step his demotion from Leia during the change of command. That's why she starts out combatively reprimanding him. Anyone else summarily commanded to go to their post and await instructions would be expected to do so. He's a part of a military unit. He needs to be able to trust his commanding officers to make calls even when he's not on a need-to-know basis.
If she has LEAD with that, instead of the weirdly antagonistic first encounter, I would say she would have handled it properly. But again, that first confrontation is so different from every other action or interaction Holdo has with anyone else, including talking about Stunned Poe, it seems forced for the sake of the plot.
Again, that's because he approaches her as "Commander Dameron" and has to be put in his place, because he's assuming a role of involvement and authority that his actions have removed from him, and that she's making a point of enforcing.
He's a hot-headed, recently-demoted pilot with no ship. She tells him to go to his post and she'll call him if she needs him. It's her job to have a plan and tell who she needs to. Her conversation suffices for that.
He should have shared the information, I agree, but that initial antagonistic confrontation already got him thinking of her as unwilling to listen. I'm far from saying Poe is blameless in this, but Holdo seems to actively antagonize him for no reason in their initial conversation despite in her own words really liking him AFTER he's staged a mutiny against her. That's the part of the movie where the writing is weakest. Not Holdo not telling him the plan, but Holdo's apparent opinion change Re: Poe towards the better AFTER his mutiny.
The antagonism from her was his fault for being his normal cocky assumptive self that he would be involved with the plan and could avoid the consequences of his demotion.
So I just saw the movie and I'm really, really disappointed
with how Chewbacca is handled, Luke and Chewie have known each for decades. Han JUST DIED, Leia is fighting a losing war they desperately need to get back too, Luke won't help at all and Chewie's is just gonna sit in a corner and only act when spoken too? This is New Hope's medal ceremony all over again. He's not a ****ing droid, he's a person with strong feelings and his own stake in this fight. I get that Rey is the main character and needs to be focused on but you can't put Chewie on that island specifically show not have him doing anything when he could have a scene just as long of him talking to Luke in his own right.
Other thoughts, I'm really bummed out that Luke really spend 30 years doing everything wrong. He left the war after ROTJ to seek Jedi scrolls that were nigh worthless, took Han's son away from him forever, he trained a dozen students, all of them dead or evil thanks to him in a far more direct way then we thought, then sulked on a island for years while hope dies throughout the galaxy and forgets what little Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to teach him. And then he has one last hurrah and dies. It's a really cool hurrah, don't get me wrong but it's a damn tough pill to swallow nevertheless.
Snoke just being a plot device to kickstart Kylo's dark side and the new Empire rather then a character with relevance and back story in his own right after all is disappointing but hell, Palpatine was so good, most people even felt he was still good even in the prequels, not gonna top him anyway.
Surprised at there being no scene of Rose and her sister together before she died. It'd have been fairly easy to setup.
The movie has a lot of subverting expectations, enough to feel inorganic but that's what reboots are made off. You see it with Dragonball Super, and DC all the time. The first go at a continuation does the obvious thing, the second has to go a different route, just how it is. (and the Extended Universe had destroyed itself beyond repair long before Disney entered the picture)
Other then that, good movie, though it's clearly made in the post-Marvel era of quippy banter.
Reading through some of the vitriol directed at that dude (from folks so determined to hate the movie as to take offense at anyone who suggests there was actual planning involved in its storytelling) makes me want to go see the movie again.
Many fans have cried foul over the controversial fate of Luke Skywalker in STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI. But is the unexpected later life of The Original Trilogy's main hero really such a major departure? Or has director Rian Johnson adhered closer than at first seems apparent to the original conception of Lucas' unlikely hero - and the classical myths and legends that inspired him?
Many fans have cried foul over the controversial fate of Luke Skywalker in STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI. But is the unexpected later life of The Original Trilogy's main hero really such a major departure? Or has director Rian Johnson adhered closer than at first seems apparent to the original conception of Lucas' unlikely hero - and the classical myths and legends that inspired him?
Thing is 2 is not a trend, Luke doesn't HAVE to end up exactly like Yoda and Obi-Wan. And Anakin doesn't by himself represent a trend of inovercomeable Skywalker weakness to the dark side that in the sequel trilogy Luke and Ben are bound by either. As for comparisons to King Arthur, the merits of his creation of the Knights of the Round Table is well explored by the end of the story. And even at the end, not every knight ends up in a utterly terrible way. Luke's Jedi don't exactly hold up to that comparison.
Not saying that doing it this way is bad but I don't think the points Bob bring up makes it so inevitable that it all had be like this for Ben and Luke.
In this particular story, it's much more like the original trilogy, where with Snoke if you think about the actual scenes, if suddenly I had paused one of the scenes to give a 30 second monologue about who he was, it would have kind of stopped the scene in its tracks, I realized. Even though it could have been interesting, something that fans were interested in, as storytellers, we have to kind of serve what the scenes need to be. It was a tough thing, even though I knew some fans were interested in it I also knew it wasn't something that dramatically had a place in this movie. Hopefully it can be addressed elsewhere or even J.J. may address it in the next movie. But it's not something that's particularly interesting to Rey, so we kind of had to follow through.
It was Lucas who established both "strongest" and "only."
