SPOILERS State of the Shinra Military Address (*Open Spoilers*)

[crazyrabbits23]

Shinra HQ is simplistic in the OG, but it wasn't the final boss area in the OG. There was so much room for expansion, where the crew has to sneak in, getting keycards one by one by running sidequests pretending to be employees, getting to know people and departments and doing favours until they got the next one, or going through the floor where everyone's gone home except security drones to break into the office where the next one is.We could've, you know, broken into offices and read files, got a real sense of the building and how it worked.

The problem with doing that is that no one is going to spend hours rummaging through similar-looking computers and archives for minor lore information. I know this because I've done it several times, for the purpose of metagaming (trying to max my level). You have to actually make these things fun for the players.

The example I refer back to is the Deus Ex franchise. In the original game (which came out around the time of FF7OG), you go into the corporate headquarters of Versalife, the shady government organization behind the Gray Death nanovirus. All of the computers on the four floors you can visit have the same information. Most of the workers only have a couple lines of dialogue at most, because they're just copy-pasted templates of the same character. The supervisor you find is comically inept and presumes that you're part of the villain's cleanup crew, and will hand you a keycard if you bribe him. The only inspired part of that section was "John Smith", the employee who knows a bit about what's going on in the lower biotech labs and either sells you a keycard or gives you one if you eliminate the supervisor (and regardless of your choice, the company ends up offing him after the fact, which you find out during the escape). Human Revolution did this with Omega Ranch, the second-to-last mission in the game - an interminable slog of hacking every single computer for some background information that was just repetitive. Same with Mankind Divided's "System Rift" and "A Criminal Past" DLCs, which tried to tie in lore from the original game (the former) and more information on a prison via its employee workstations (the latter) and failed in both cases because there were so many that you didn't care.

Sometimes, less is more.

Instead we got three whole floors of tour guide and then Mayor Domino just handed you the next card for free.

That's exactly how it is in the OG. You go up a few floors, and an employee mistakes you for the repair technicians (a man with a giant sword on his back, another with a gun on his arm, and a woman wearing metal knuckles) and hands over a keycard, no strings attached. Another one just writes you off as security, no questions asked.

Reeve has derogatory nicknames for his colleagues, that he doesn't use to their faces. They can also have soldiers march in and arrest him.

I'm not sure what your argument is. Reeve has far more to do here versus his portrayal in the OG. He has two cutscenes as an otherwise-faceless board member, and is essentially gone until the end of Disc 2. Here, we get to see more about what his job is, how he interacts with his employees (his secretary bucks the trend of the turncoat, as she is actively trying to protect him by asking him to keep his opinions quiet), and we even get to see his reaction (by proxy) to the platefall. I don't like the Cait Sith scene for breaking the tension during that scene, but that's a different complaint altogether.

Heidegger et al have their cartoony moments in the OG, but they also have moments where they get stuff done.

They're comic relief in the OG. I like the characters too, but come on. Heidegger gets chewed out by Rufus multiple times, goes comically villainous when he throws people overboard during the boat trip to Costa Del Sol, and his biggest contribution to the plot is an afterthought boss that shows up just before Hojo during the Midgar Raid (and IIRC, that fight was played up for laughs, with Heidegger/Scarlet making an ineffectual grab for power when Reeve is given control of the company). Heidegger is supposedly present outside Shinra HQ when the gang escapes, but he isn't shown on-screen.

They've bigger roles here, in which the cartoony moments get expanded, but the 'getting stuff done' part is played down.

Considering neither of those characters made a demonstrable impact on Disc 1 of the OG, and neither of them originally contributed anything beyond appearances in a couple of cutscenes, this seems like a hollow complaint. We see Scarlet overseeing PR/outreach/experimentation (albeit on a TV screen) and we see Heidegger actually doing his normal job (monitoring security). You can complain that they didn't do enough with that or didn't do it well enough, but saying that their work was "played down" when they didn't have any to begin with in the OG is stretching it.

The cutaways in ch 5 actually took away from the tension for me. Dr Robotnik in his control room yelling about how he was surrounded by incompetents. And if this is just a Shinra attitude and he's not supposed to be right, I'd expect to see scenes where infantry independently do things that are effective at putting pressure on AVALANCHE.

a) He's a company loyalist who follows President Shinra hook, line and sinker, and agrees to his plan without question, even when things start to slip behind the scenes. In this respect, it appears to be hewing more closely to the OG plotline that the platefall was a tipping point for the company, and that Heidegger is simply too proud/stubborn to do otherwise. The fact that he sees his plans unravel around him after thinking he has control (Cloud and co. escaping/Tseng and Rufus marginalizing his influence from their first meeting) speaks to this.
b) Baiting the public into believing that Avalanche has instigated a war on behalf of Wutai is putting pressure on Avalanche. Never mind the handful of scenes of infantry we see in the first couple chapters (the Huntsman, the soldiers boxing in Cloud) who are trying to keep up the pressure. I'm not sure what your argument is. In the OG, most of the populace either doesn't know or doesn't care about Avalanche causing the bombing, and after the plate falls, no one brings it up again (compare this to the characterization in the Remake, where the platefall is clearly part of a larger plan to bait the entirety of Avalanche and stoke the minds of the populace).

In ch 7, Airbuster's encounter gets deflated by the quests to disable it in advance.

Optional. You can fight it at full strength if you want.

If they really wanted to crank things up, how about a multi stage encounter where it's hunting you through the corridors? Even if they win, the victory might feel more earned.

a) How is that going to work with the otherwise-insular corridors of the Reactor? It wasn't a huge location in the OG to begin with.
b) I think you're underestimating how difficult that would be to program within the confines of this release and the existing pacing. A giant robot hunting you through a facility after what was arguably the biggest section of padding in the game (the journey to the second reactor) would come off as frustrating to the extreme.
c) Isn't the Airbuster fight already multi-stage? It goes through several phases of rebalancing its offensive capabilities, and some not working, based on what you did/didn't do beforehand.

For a similar scene involving mowing down people on a motorcycle was a thing, there's Snow's rescue in Palompolum in XIII. The soldiers get varied responses and seem human, it's a genuine unexpected 'oh crap' ambush of Light and Hope that isn't deflated by sidequests disabling the machines first, and we get to see how powerful the crew is, but there's also a sense of genuine menace and pressure, and the attack isn't played for slapstick at any point.

I went to watch the scene you referenced. Not only are the soldiers a faceless blob of enemies (that just get mowed down effortlessly), but Snow makes a couple of maneuvers that even Roche would find over-the-top (spinning around on Shiva/the motorcycle as it plummets through the air, nearly taking Lightning's head off as he rides past her).

 

[Clement Rage]

...Why would the heroes be fraternizing with employees and rummaging through offices when their entire mission and purpose for breaking into the most dangerous and heavily guarded location in Midgar, is rescuing Aerith and getting out with as little attention as possible? What you're saying doesn't even line up with the story. Cloud and the others are trying to remain as incognito as possible. They're suspicious intruders given their appearance and non-professional attire. The only reason they are able to infiltrate as far as they can is due to assistance on the inside and chaos from the plate fall. Because without it, it'd be non-stop battle after battle.

An effort to blend in makes much more sense than leaving a gigantic pile of corpses at the parking garage and then doing parkour in the main entrance, where miraculously no guards, cameras, or just employees going home from work pass through and wonder what this lady's up to climbing the light fixtures. That's such a big mess that I don't buy Domino being able to clean it up, and it just makes both Shinra and our leads look bad that he can pull it off so easily (and that Wedge can just wander in easily.)

Because the entire premise of the Airbuster lead up was that it was a killing machine that was being created to summarily execute you on live television, however you had the opportunity to specifically sabotage it's 3 core functions in order to give yourself an edge in battle. Thereby tailoring your fighting experience to one that is unique and structured to your fighting style, making it more immersive and engaging. Having it be a repetitive boss that just keeps coming back for more like the X-ATM092 Black Widow from FFVIII would completely ruin the entire premise and unique battle experience that you're able to create by systematically sabotaging the creation. It's a creative and unique way to literally give the finger to Shinra and create a unique battle experience adjusted to your style.

That's not particularly unique. You could weaken Ozma and Vallis Media in advance in IX, you can weaken that giant Flan in XIII-2. The benefit of the multi stage encounter approach is that it makes individual enemies appear powerful, and you could still do find environmental hazards to weaken it if you want, but the fact that this opportunity is solely because Shinra set a trap badly weakens the impact.

Turns out I did misremember that scene, I was thinking of Snow's speech, (where the PSICOM troops do hesitate, and talk among themselves after hearing it, forcing Rosch to make that speech to bolster their resolve.) We got cutaways elsewhere to the garrison strongly objecting to his 'Ignore all firezone restrictions' order, and a constant thread that the pursuers believe the purge is a necessary evil, but don't like it. Right from chapter 1, where that soldier that 'couldn't shoot, got himself shot instead' is focused on for a bit. Their motivations matter, it's a core thread of that game.

Rosch is not that cold, especially at 'do you think we want to purge our own citizens?'

he problem with doing that is that no one is going to spend hours rummaging through similar-looking computers and archives for minor lore information. I know this because I've done it several times, for the purpose of metagaming (trying to max my level). You have to actually make these things fun for the players.

So... don't break into every office? Just enough to keep things going.

That's exactly how it is in the OG. You go up a few floors, and an employee mistakes you for the repair technicians (a man with a giant sword on his back, another with a gun on his arm, and a woman wearing metal knuckles) and hands over a keycard, no strings attached. Another one just writes you off as security, no questions asked.

Yes. That could be improved, though. The 'unlock chests in sequence' puzzle makes little sense, but the concept of 'you must do things to get the keycard to the next floor' would be an improvement on just getting handed them all, though. With Shinra HQ being the final fortress to break into in the game, I want it to be more difficult to get through, a bit more 'infiltrationy' than 'slaughter all the door guards, no one will notice, than just walk up do the grand tour and get given the keycard.' The big epic action sequence can come when Aeris is retrieved, and there's potential for a good one, if, say, there's a running battle going on between Hojo's broken out lab specimens and the building security.

Apparently we can just go to sleep for half an hour instead without anyone noticing or caring, and no guards showing up. No big deal.

Given that Shinra HQ is the stronghold of the villains (and in this instance essentially the climax of the game) I would expect it to be more difficult to infiltrate, and the fact that our leads can just cut their way in so easily undermines both our leads and Shinra itself.

I'm not sure what your argument is. Reeve has far more to do here versus his portrayal in the OG. He has two cutscenes as an otherwise-faceless board member, and is essentially gone until the end of Disc 2. Here, we get to see more about what his job is, how he interacts with his employees (his secretary bucks the trend of the turncoat, as she is actively trying to protect him by asking him to keep his opinions quiet), and we even get to see his reaction (by proxy) to the platefall. I don't like the Cait Sith scene for breaking the tension during that scene, but that's a different complaint altogether.

That was in response to this:

I think the crux of what I'm not understanding is from having recently seen a playthrough of the OG. Heidegger and Scarlet are referred to as "Gyahaha" and "Kyahaha" in a mocking tone. The are anime antagonists. I really think this is the feeling Remake is trying to draw from.

My point is that they were still dangerous despite their laughs. Heidi and Scarlet are the ones that come up with the Sister Ray and Rocket plans in Disc 2, H is calm and competent running the response to the Weapon attack. They can be effective when they need to be. Heidegger is calling the shots that kill Weapons.

All that is in disc 2, but while we got to see more of them, we don't really get to see them doing much effective or intimidating. Unlike the OG, this is an entire game mostly focused on confronting Shinra, but the expanded role of these people doesn't do them any favours, which is damaging when they're the core opposition of our leads. Heidegger's two key confrontations with our leads both get undermined by jokes.

a) How is that going to work with the otherwise-insular corridors of the Reactor? It wasn't a huge location in the OG to begin with.
b) I think you're underestimating how difficult that would be to program within the confines of this release and the existing pacing. A giant robot hunting you through a facility after what was arguably the biggest section of padding in the game (the journey to the second reactor) would come off as frustrating to the extreme.
c) Isn't the Airbuster fight already multi-stage? It goes through several phases of rebalancing its offensive capabilities, and some not working, based on what you did/didn't do beforehand.

I mean, they did something similar with the Valkyrie, it doesn't seem so impossible. There are plenty of wide open spaces in the reactor. Given that they build towards the encounter for most of a chapter, I want to see it put more pressure on the cast.

I went to watch the scene you referenced. Not only are the soldiers a faceless blob of enemies (that just get mowed down effortlessly), but Snow makes a couple of maneuvers that even Roche would find over-the-top (spinning around on Shiva/the motorcycle as it plummets through the air, nearly taking Lightning's head off as he rides past her).

Not effortlessly. Hope gets in trouble and needs help, and even after all the crazy cutscene stuff, there's still enough standing to make a fight of it. We see how much PSICOM are bringing to bear against the leads, heavy weapons, airships, etc, and Shiva only gives them a temporary respite at best. The L'Cie and their opposition both get get to look effective. Even with all their powers, there's still a sense of pressure and danger from their opposition.

But I'm getting off track. Where was I?

My main gripe: Given the expansions prevalent across this game, and its main focus being the fight against Shinra (albeit with setup for the greater threats to come), Shinra forces and characters could have done with a more formidable nature, and more individual personality, which I felt was lacking relative to similar games where you had more opportunity to talk and listen to enemy troopers and their perspectives.

The grand confrontation with Airbuster is damaged by Heidegger making a basic mistake like not checking if his death machine is ready before unleashing it, given his established knowledge of exactly where AVALANCHE is going two chapters earlier. This mistake sucks much of the punch out of the confrontation. In their confrontation in the Shinra lobby, the tension is also sucked out of the scene with a joke, and there's not much threat provided by the presence of infantry, which roles provided on several occasions by their slapsticky deaths.

The Shinra infantry's enemy chatter doesn't provide much personality or depth, they're used repeatedly for slapsticky comedy abuse that undermines them both as a threat and as people that are supposed to be individual characters. I want to see some depth of motivation, conversations that don't directly pertain to 'there they are, get them' and Shinra HQ was a massive missed opportunity to show us troopers talking amongst themselves to provide some more nuance than 'get them' and 'my boss is a dick'.

The two biggest exceptions are those two pillar guards and Kunsel knowing dude...and it's better than nothing, but... I want to hear more varied perspectives.

We do overhear some conversations, but they're fairly limited in perspective. I want to hear what those troopers attacking the pillar feel about their mission. We get to hear one conversation from the troops standing on the wreckage of Sector Seven, but do we get thoughts on the attack, what they feel about whoever did this (and whether they think it the work of AVALANCHE or Shinra?) No, we get complaining about OT.

I... feel like I've lost my point in this giant wall of text, I might have to try again.

 

[Makoeyes987]

An effort to blend in makes much more sense than leaving a gigantic pile of corpses at the parking garage and then doing parkour in the main entrance, where miraculously no guards, cameras, or just employees going home from work pass through and wonder what this lady's up to climbing the light fixtures. That's such a big mess that I don't buy Domino being able to clean it up, and it just makes both Shinra and our leads look bad that he can pull it off so easily (and that Wedge can just wander in easily.)

...How is a big black man appearing as if he strode in from the Thunderdome of Mad Max equipped with a gun-arm, a woman in athletic sporty-attire from the slums, and a half-assed looking SOLDIER going to fit in at the Shinra Building? It already sorta stretches belief that no employees automatically phoned Public Security because of suspicious individuals wandering the building... You want these three people to just continually expose themselves and enlarge the already massive targets on their back? That premise does not make sense.

Mayor Domino pulling strings, utilizing AVALANCHE HQ, and being the forgotten, unassuming informant that Shinra overlooked makes so much more sense that it corrects the question of how exactly Cloud and the others were able to believably infiltrate Shinra and not have all their forces bearing down on them. What you're saying frankly reminds me of the worst of FFXV's open mechanics straining the credibility of the plot's pacing. Sure, open exploration and carte blanche freedom to explore the building would be great as a game element but it also makes zero sense in the narrative and framing of the experience. The writer's simply chose the story. And it's not like there's nothing to do in the Shinra Building anyways.

Hell, you can discover and access the top-secret combat data of the Proud Clad prototype and fight it. Heidegger and Scarlet's Pride and Joy.

That's not particularly unique. You could weaken Ozma and Vallis Media in advance in IX, you can weaken that giant Flan in XIII-2. The benefit of the multi stage encounter approach is that it makes individual enemies appear powerful, and you could still do find environmental hazards to weaken it if you want, but the fact that this opportunity is solely because Shinra set a trap badly weakens the impact.

None of your examples are equivalent to the Chapter 7 experience of infiltrating Mako Reactor 5, discovering the planned public execution, the characters reacting to being trapped and the subsequent sabotaging said method of execution to turn the tables. The numerous moments of character development, experiencing Shinra troops and brass hastily attempting to salvage the project, and literally fighting them for the chance to break the Airbuster as much as possible, is miles above simply finding Bloodstones in a palace and turning flipping their switch off.

As for Ozma, the entire friendly monster sidequest doesn't telegraph it's connection to Ozma at all. Not until the very end when the Friendly Yan simply states, "Now you can reach the round guy!" It's not so much weakening Ozma, as it's just being able to reach him. You do it to not be limited to long-range attacks and magic, not weaken the giant gumball. There's no counterforce fighting you to prevent Zidane's attempt at getting in reach of Ozma. There's no character dialogue or interactions between the party theorizing about what Ozma is, or if it'll be possible to win the fight. There's no witty banter between the characters over the whole situation and comradry building in the lead up to the fight. It's a superboss. You only get a moogle warning you that something bad is coming from that cave and then you're put into a fight. So calling Chapter 7's Airbuster fight "not particularly unique" is a reductive summation of what it actually is. Fighting a boss over and over is just that. Over and over. Maybe you could dress that type of scenario up with dressing to be more unique, but as demonstrated, what we have in Chapter 7 already is a unique experience.

You're upset over this experience because you feel the characters are somehow "robbed" of a "victory" because you perceive their sabotage as somehow diminishing their efforts. Which is frankly a strange interpretation of successful strategic out-maneuvering and capitalizing on Shinra's failure to prepare. I don't know why you want AVALANCHE to somehow be capable of Advent Children-ing their way through the equivalent of the beginning Disc 1 of the story in the Remake. They're strong but not super-fucking-strong. Not yet.

My main gripe: Given the expansions prevalent across this game, and its main focus being the fight against Shinra (albeit with setup for the greater threats to come), Shinra forces and characters could have done with a more formidable nature, and more individual personality, which I felt was lacking relative to similar games where you had more opportunity to talk and listen to enemy troopers and their perspectives.

And this is what I don't understand.

I at least get your gripe about the Airbuster fight. I don't agree with it at all, but I understand the premise of your issue for it.

However, I have no idea what it is you want in terms of Shinra and the Shinra Building.

The Shinra infantry's enemy chatter doesn't provide much personality or depth, they're used repeatedly for slapsticky comedy abuse that undermines them both as a threat and as people that are supposed to be individual characters. I want to see some depth of motivation, conversations that don't directly pertain to 'there they are, get them' and Shinra HQ was a massive missed opportunity to show us troopers talking amongst themselves to provide some more nuance than 'get them' and 'my boss is a dick'.

What more personality do you want from them?

You hear some of their hopes and fears. You see manifestations of unique personalities amongst the infantrymen in numerous ways. Like the unique shield the Huntsman carries, or how a pair of the Infantrymen guarding the corkscrew tunnel keep their Guard Hounds as pets. There's also the fire troopers who have monster extermination duty and how they hate their assignment. You witness two very memorable troopers that guard the gate in the Sector 7 slums go through dramatic character growth to be better, stronger human beings that care for the people, instead of protecting the profits of a corporation. You experience the Shinra Company employees divulge their feelings, thoughts and hopes for the future in the Shinra Building. There's a mountain of nuance and unique facets that exist for the employees of the company, but that apparently isn't enough for you.

No, it's not all just slapstick comedy. For your desire to see more than just "there they are, get them" it's strange to me that you hold up, of all examples, PSI-COM from Cocoon. The most basic, generic, overtly antagonistic and cruel force of the Cocoon military that does almost zero nuance in FFXIII. Only Yaag-Rosch demonstrates humanity and a sliver of kindness. PSI-COM troops briefly listening to Snow's spiel justifying their humanity, and then subsequently raising their weapons back up on command is bare minimum. The troops don't demonstrate any real hesitance in hunting the L'Cie, and they certainly don't hold more nuance and humanity than the Infantrymen of FFVII-R. That's just not true. It's not in the text.

Sure, we don't see any troops talking amongst themselves or doing anything in the Shinra Building. Except the Infantryman who recognizes Cloud and goes to find Kunsel to tell him the great news of finding Cloud alive. Nevermind the employees talking about their families and hoping they're okay. Like the employee comforting another female employee that their parents are probably fine during the plate collapse and the only reason she can't reach them is because the phone service has been disconnected due to the chaos. There are numerous exhibitions of "depth of motivation" and I guess you just simply sped through the chapter and missed it.

Hell, even the damn robot-boy Shinra intern has his own character arc. How much more humanity does the Shinra Company grunts and employees need? They'll all be secondary characters at this rate.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

An effort to blend in makes much more sense than leaving a gigantic pile of corpses at the parking garage and then doing parkour in the main entrance, where miraculously no guards, cameras, or just employees going home from work pass through and wonder what this lady's up to climbing the light fixtures. That's such a big mess that I don't buy Domino being able to clean it up, and it just makes both Shinra and our leads look bad that he can pull it off so easily (and that Wedge can just wander in easily.)

Your criticism is applicable to the OG as well. You walk in the front entrance of HQ, Barret loudly announces his presence, and a giant fight kicks off. When that's done, things revert back to the same random encounters as before, with several floors not having any enemies/random fights at all. If that were following the remake, the entirety of Shinra forces would have converged on HQ minutes after they arrived.

Do I think Domino's efforts are a handwave? Absolutely. Do I think it would have worked otherwise? Not a chance in hell. You can't have a massive setpiece (the concluding chapters of the game) and not make some concessions to fit the plot. That the three party members are able to do so at all was a red flag then and a red flag now, but that setpiece wasn't going to be changed.

That's not particularly unique. You could weaken Ozma and Vallis Media in advance in IX, you can weaken that giant Flan in XIII-2. The benefit of the multi stage encounter approach is that it makes individual enemies appear powerful, and you could still do find environmental hazards to weaken it if you want, but the fact that this opportunity is solely because Shinra set a trap badly weakens the impact.

I'm still not sure what your argument is. The flan fight (presuming I'm not misremembering) takes place across two time periods and has the party using time-travel shenanigans to reduce the massive boss to the size of a garden-variety tomato. Ozma is a bonus boss In the OG, that can be weakened by a sidequest earlier in the game that weakens it to physical attacks - which is largely what happens here with the Airbuster.

The Reactor 5 sequence is also truncated - in the original, it was the party sliding down a chute, go through two copy-pasted screens from the first reactor, setting the bomb and walking back out (up to the three-way catwalk) without incident. There simply wasn't enough meat in the original to do anything with, and most of it took place in corridors and over pipes.

The focus of the second Reactor mission is on Avalanche realizing they've been caught out (and were being played all along), and Shinra antagonizing them before setting the Airbuster loose on them. Not sure how that would work with a boss that somehow can travel through corridors looking for them.

So... don't break into every office? Just enough to keep things going.

Way to ignore the point. My response was that you want Shinra HQ to be a drawn-out affair where players can go searching for hordes of information and do keycard quests. The OG got criticized for that exact same thing when it threw several puzzles, one after the other (the computer that controls the sliding doors, the Shinra model puzzle, Domino's keycard quest) at the player in order to mix things up. I'm also saying that S-E as a whole doesn't have the best track record with creating office spaces that give you things to do, and I pointed out examples from Deus Ex because it often does this haphazardly.

The one time it worked was in Human Revolution, at the very beginning in Sarif Industries. It adapts to all your choices - if you want too long to start the first mission by rummaging around the offices, the hostages you were supposed to save die offscreen. If you break into offices and get info/credits, people will email Adam (the main character, who's in charge of the building's security) letting him know that there's a thief - and will give him the security codes, making breaking in easier.

The only way this works is because it's interspersed between several different missions, with the environment changing each time you visit.

Yes. That could be improved, though. The 'unlock chests in sequence' puzzle makes little sense, but the concept of 'you must do things to get the keycard to the next floor' would be an improvement on just getting handed them all, though. With Shinra HQ being the final fortress to break into in the game, I want it to be more difficult to get through, a bit more 'infiltrationy' than 'slaughter all the door guards, no one will notice, than just walk up do the grand tour and get given the keycard.' The big epic action sequence can come when Aeris is retrieved, and there's potential for a good one, if, say, there's a running battle going on between Hojo's broken out lab specimens and the building security.

And yet, as I mentioned earlier, making it a slog through searching for keycards and accessing the same-looking computers is not necessarily conducive to fun. You have to mix it up, which they did well IMO in the Remake -- the classic stairs vs. elevator choice is there, but you also get several chapters going through a new laboratory, weapons for the team, a combat simulator, side areas with stuff to do (the exhibits/library) and better boss fights versus the OG. I don't see what the problem is with that.

Apparently we can just go to sleep for half an hour instead without anyone noticing or caring, and no guards showing up. No big deal.

That's a non-sequitur. Putting aside the fact that they're in a restricted area and no one else knows their presence besides Hojo (who is heavily indicated to be goading them on because he's watching their progress for his research data), who is coming to get them that late, when they already established that the building was virtually free of guards?

Given that Shinra HQ is the stronghold of the villains (and in this instance essentially the climax of the game) I would expect it to be more difficult to infiltrate, and the fact that our leads can just cut their way in so easily undermines both our leads and Shinra itself.

It did in the OG, too, so I'm not sure what the complaint is. Nor am I sure what you want out of that, especially when given evidence that such a scenario you presented doesn't work that often in terms of player engagement.

My point is that they were still dangerous despite their laughs.

They were comic relief who barely felt like a real presence. I distinctly remember fighting Palmer in Rocket Town and thinking it had to be some kind of joke fight, then thinking the same later during the Proud Clod fight. The last dying gasps of a miniboss squad who are non-entities for long stretches of time.

Heidi and Scarlet are the ones that come up with the Sister Ray and Rocket plans in Disc 2,

Yep. A giant gun that only works at extremely close-range (versus the first enemy we see it engaging) and a plan to fire Materia into Meteror that no one is sure will even work.

I mean, they did something similar with the Valkyrie, it doesn't seem so impossible. There are plenty of wide open spaces in the reactor. Given that they build towards the encounter for most of a chapter, I want to see it put more pressure on the cast.

And I wouldn't. Different strokes for different folks. Besides, you still haven't countered with how the player is going to deal with a monster chasing them around after the extreme amount of padding that was the previous chapter, and the narrative-heavy nature of Reactor 5 that would be broken by an enemy constantly distracting your focus.

Not effortlessly. Hope gets in trouble and needs help, and even after all the crazy cutscene stuff, there's still enough standing to make a fight of it. We see how much PSICOM are bringing to bear against the leads, heavy weapons, airships, etc, and Shiva only gives them a temporary respite at best. The L'Cie and their opposition both get get to look effective. Even with all their powers, there's still a sense of pressure and danger from their opposition.

I never thought I'd see the day when someone would prop up XIII to try to sell me on how they think the Remake is underwhelming.

My main gripe: Given the expansions prevalent across this game, and its main focus being the fight against Shinra (albeit with setup for the greater threats to come), Shinra forces and characters could have done with a more formidable nature, and more individual personality, which I felt was lacking relative to similar games where you had more opportunity to talk and listen to enemy troopers and their perspectives.

It certainly isn't lacking compared to the OG, and compared to other similar games, it does give focus to a number of perspectives within the enemy organization. I'm still not entirely certain what you want, beyond vague grumblings about giving each soldier a unique personality and taking more time out of the plot so that we can hear from rank-and-file soldiers. What's in the Remake now is great, but I don't need the action to stop every few minutes so I can variation x on "this is why you need to die".

The grand confrontation with Airbuster is damaged by Heidegger making a basic mistake like not checking if his death machine is ready before unleashing it, given his established knowledge of exactly where AVALANCHE is going two chapters earlier.

That's a character flaw, not a writing issue, and besides, it's a moot point, given that you can ignore the sidequest completely and fight it at full strength.

This mistake sucks much of the punch out of the confrontation. In their confrontation in the Shinra lobby, the tension is also sucked out of the scene with a joke

Which is extremely similar to the OG, when Barret starts rambling about Shinra and runs outside to engage the forces - only to run in moments later as gunfire peppers the lobby.

There's not much threat provided by the presence of infantry, which roles provided on several occasions by their slapsticky deaths.

Which is a criticism that could be applied to virtually every game ever made, least of all the OG, in which soldiers (and even friendly characters like Avalanche team members) were thrown around with reckless abandon.

I would refer to Mako's post above, as he said it better than I ever could.

 

[Clement Rage]

...How is a big black man appearing as if he strode in from the Thunderdome of Mad Max equipped with a gun-arm, a woman in athletic sporty-attire from the slums, and a half-assed looking SOLDIER going to fit in at the Shinra Building? It already sorta stretches belief that no employees automatically phoned Public Security because of suspicious individuals wandering the building... You want these three people to just continually expose themselves and enlarge the already massive targets on their back? That premise does not make sense.

You already have that problem anyway. It's the kind of thing you have to roll with every time characters disguise themselves when it's too much work to make a new model.

Alternatively, Cloud is in a SOLDIER uniform (and that one guy seemed to buy it), and Barret could take out his gun arm? We know he can change it to different weapons. Tifa doesn't look that weird, put on a coat?

Mayor Domino pulling strings, utilizing AVALANCHE HQ, and being the forgotten, unassuming informant that Shinra overlooked makes so much more sense that it corrects the question of how exactly Cloud and the others were able to believably infiltrate Shinra and not have all their forces bearing down on them

I dunno, it stretches things more for me that he had that much pull. If he has that much control of Shinra HQ and is willing to exert it without even knowing what the infiltrators want, how is the President still alive. AVALANCHE's escape plan uses the Prez' private helipad, and is able to stay there for a while waiting for them. ('doing another sweep'). If you can do that, just fly up and put a rocket through his window when he's at his desk! We know the windows are not super strong thanks to the Prez being thrown through them with no ill effects.

My ideal scenario goes something like:

Team AVALANCHE successfully sneak in without that giant stupid fight in the parking garage, they hide from or avoid guards, maybe a few small encounters where they're able to take down small groups quickly without an alarm raised. , Tifa shuts down the security system herself, and is able to modify her keycard to get that visitors pass, which is only good for one floor (you might say, 'she wouldn't know how to do that', but she works for a terrorist group, she might.)

Domino gives them another card in exchange for a favour of some kind, then they get some more by breaking into offices or lockers, impersonate messengers or something, then the conference room plays out as in the game. It's no more unbelievable than, say, delaying your urgent
rescue mission to find lost Chocobo and music discs for a sad child.

Weakening a boss before you fight it doesn't strike me all that unique. You can do certain things to make the fight easier, but the fact that they have been building towards this for two chapters and still aren't ready on time takes away from the encounter for me. You may disagree. Ok.

Your criticism is applicable to the OG as well.

Yes? So improve it. I'm not an OG purist, a lot could be improved about the original Shinra building. In this game, Shinra HQ is the final dungeon, so I expect things to be stepped up a bit. It's not inherently bad to have to walk around getting to know the place to find a way to progress
, any more than it was in Sector 6 (where you are also in the middle of an urgent rescue mission and Corneo's organisation is specifically hunting AVALANCHE. But you make friends with and do favours for people within his organisation in order to get deeper into his stronghold.)

Honestly, the Drum was a slog for me, something to get past to get back to the plot, with stuff you have to roll with like Hojo randomly endangering the super valuable prisoner that he was instructed to preserve at all costs and seemed to agree with how precious she was.

Nothing is necessarily conducive to fun, it's in the execution. Narrative wise, I thought killing everyone in the parking garage and yet somehow getting in unnoticed was dumb, sure is lucky nobody in this giant building tried to go home in all that time, huh?

When did they establish that the building was free of guards, I thought it was under heavy security. The OG version gave you the option of avoiding guards entirely until floor 59. whereupon there was one small fight and a further 'avoid the guards' minigame', whereupon you avoided confronting security except in empty areas of the building until you got to Aeris. You could fail, but the approach of 'not causing a ruckus until you rescue Aeris' made sense and the characters seemed to favour it.

Yep. A giant gun that only works at extremely close-range (versus the first enemy we see it engaging) and a plan to fire Materia into Meteror that no one is sure will even work.

Which worked better than everything else and successfully killed two weapons and broke Sephiroth's unbreakable energy shield, allowing people into the crater to defeat him.

And I wouldn't. Different strokes for different folks. Besides, you still haven't countered with how the player is going to deal with a monster chasing them around after the extreme amount of padding that was the previous chapter, and the narrative-heavy nature of Reactor 5 that would be broken by an enemy constantly distracting your focus.

Okay, different strokes, fine. Narrative heavy? It's a long corridor where the leads talk about defeating a specific robot. Intermittent appearances from that robot aren't exactly off brand, and would help sell the idea that this is actually supposed to be a super AVALANCHE killing robot, because it's difficult to take head on, rather than just another bossfight of many.

Y'all are asking what I want from Shinra and the Shinra HQ. I'll do my best. If I'm not clear, then sorry, this is probably the best I can do.

In terms of individual personality, look at what we have to do with Corneo's organisation. The broad strokes are similar.

You've got to do a rescue mission, you don't want to cause a giant fight before you're rescued your target.

Look how much the remake did with that. All those quests, all those conversations with Corneo enforcers, all that stuff you have to do to get close enough to your target that violence becomes an option, including disguising yourself to get through security without arousing suspicion. Gee, imagine that, how totally impossible for our leads to be inconspicuous, rather than just bursting in and killing everyone and hoping for the best.

Over the course of that, you have to do a bunch of favours for his employees, some more disgruntled than others, and get some insights into why they're doing what they're doing, some of whom are fine with it, some are not.

Then you get rumbled, things get violent, Don unleashes a monster on you, and you have to try and cut your way out.

There was no reason they couldn't do something similar with the Shinra HQ. Conventional disguises and/or hiding, so you can get close to your target without getting her hurt, in which you have to social network your way through security, maybe do occasional sparring, and then have to fight your way out, once you get to the lab. If they could do it with Corneo, they could do it with Shinra HQ.

If you didn't have a problem with Wall Market, then tell me why you'd have a problem doing that with Shinra HQ.

Separately but related, I want two things from the Shinra infantry, and Shinra HQ was a great opportunity to give them to me and those like me without derailing the plot.

One is a sense of danger, of the need to avoid confrontations. PSICOM and the Corps did do that, the L'Cie with all their powers were constantly under pressure, every victory was temporary because they had to run and hide to avoid the imminent reinforcements. When they did go for direct confrontations, it was difficult and put them under pressure. When they did have to cut a path through Eden, it was difficult even though there was a civil war and a monster invasion on at the time as a distraction.

(Imagine how good that could be, with Sephiroth breaking open Hojo's lab and the party having to cut through a running battle between monsters, building security, and maybe even AVALANCHE forces.)

The other thing I'm expecting is a sense of what motivates these troops to do what they do. And PSICOM and the Guardian Corps did actually give us that. Some of them enjoyed their work, others saw it as a necessary evil and were reluctant. We got to see troops objecting to being asked to fire on people, we got the cavalry willing to turn a blind eye or even assist. We got one dude that we could save from that Adamanchelid.

So, we have troops attacking the pillar. What do they think about that, what do they know about what they're doing, do they know what the mission is or are they thinking they're protecting the pillar from AVALANCHE?

When we overhear those troops in the wreckage of sector 7, what do they think about it? Not much, they're just whining about OT.

Does that help any?

 

[crazyrabbits23]

At this point, I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue. Some points about things you decry as being handwaved are restated with solutions favoring... handwaves.

You already have that problem anyway. It's the kind of thing you have to roll with every time characters disguise themselves when it's too much work to make a new model. Alternatively, Cloud is in a SOLDIER uniform (and that one guy seemed to buy it), and Barret could take out his gun arm? We know he can change it to different weapons. Tifa doesn't look that weird, put on a coat?

Alright, putting aside the obvious problem of the group not having easy access to disguises that fit them - after all, they just undertook a dangeous mission to get onto the upper plate, starting from far away from their original base (which was destroyed), with the only person helping them being a disgruntled enforcer who hurriedly threw some grappling hooks together for them - the solutions you suggest would just make them more obvious. A guy missing an arm and a woman wearing a coat in the middle of the building would be just as suspicious, if not moreso. After all, they are supposed to be expecting resistance at some point, and it's not like Barret can just stow his arm(s) somewhere for easy access when they're dozens of floors up (though that's a problem of gameplay and story segregation, a completely different topic).

I dunno, it stretches things more for me that he had that much pull. If he has that much control of Shinra HQ and is willing to exert it without even knowing what the infiltrators want, how is the President still alive. AVALANCHE's escape plan uses the Prez' private helipad, and is able to stay there for a while waiting for them. ('doing another sweep'). If you can do that, just fly up and put a rocket through his window when he's at his desk! We know the windows are not super strong thanks to the Prez being thrown through them with no ill effects.

The fact that the OG stopped dead in its tracks so that an employee (who is looking the party over) mistakes them for repair technicians and hands them a keycard, no questions asked, is far less believable than an inside man who (handwave or not) has to hurriedly cover their tracks behind the scenes. It's also the middle of the night when they reach the HQ, so it was obvious in both games that security would be at a lower point than it would during the day. That's the least of my problems with the way the HQ is presented in the remake.

And really, complaining that no one from Avalanche has fired a missile into the President's office (putting aside the fact that the whole plan to extract Cloud and co. only came together last-minute, based on what Domino and Wedge tell them, and that the chopper has little idea what's happening inside) is less a legitimate story gripe and more a stock problem with too many stories to count. I can't begin to rattle off the number of stories I know that wouldn't have been solved in 1/4 the time if the heroes actually killed the villain when he wasn't expecting it.

There's also the issue (one that isn't actually brought up within this specific chapter, but suggested in the OG and borne out through the ending cutscenes in the remake) that the President's death could destablize Shinra and cause more damage to the populace. If Avalanche knows that the President is now capable of flattening an entire sector just to get to three people, that may be a deterrent to taking further action against him.

In this game, Shinra HQ is the final dungeon, so I expect things to be stepped up a bit. It's not inherently bad to have to walk around getting to know the place to find a way to progress, any more than it was in Sector 6 (where you are also in the middle of an urgent rescue mission and Corneo's organisation is specifically hunting AVALANCHE. But you make friends with and do favours for people within his organisation in order to get deeper into his stronghold.)

The difference between those two scenarios is that the latter is handled with (pardon the pun) a lighter touch. You don't really have any way into Corneo's, period, and have to rely on the help of strangers to make your way inside. In both the OG and the Remake, getting into Shinra HQ is made much easier because (regardless of the fight in the parking garage) there is a much faster, more straightforward way in, regardless of the consequences, and you have two much beefier fighters versus a glorified mage who may not necessarily be the best in a straight-up fight with an army. It's also a question of story mechanics, as while Tifa is convinced that she can handle Corneo, you don't get the same vibe with Aerith, because she's been caught and imprisoned at the highest levels of security and requires greater measures to circumvent.

Honestly, the Drum was a slog for me, something to get past to get back to the plot, with stuff you have to roll with like Hojo randomly endangering the super valuable prisoner that he was instructed to preserve at all costs and seemed to agree with how precious she was.

Which is in-character for him. He either wants to mate her with Red XIII (OG) or mate her with SOLDIER candidates. If anything, his... proclivities were dialed down for the remake. The Drum was a slog, I agree with that.

Nothing is necessarily conducive to fun, it's in the execution. Narrative wise, I thought killing everyone in the parking garage and yet somehow getting in unnoticed was dumb, sure is lucky nobody in this giant building tried to go home in all that time, huh?

Yeah, and I also thought running up stairs in the OG while Tifa called Barret "retarded" wasn't that smart either, but what do I know? I'll take a fight in a parking garage if that's what gets the characters to their next area and breaks up the pacing a bit.

When did they establish that the building was free of guards, I thought it was under heavy security.

Outside, sure. Inside, it's the parking guards, the two soldiers during the elevator scene and the two guys on the stairs who recognize Cloud. AFAIK, there are no others until you make your escape, at which point Rufus and troops come in from the top floor, and Heidegger comes in with the troops from ground level and brackets the three party members. Most of the action, up until the party escapes, is happening 60-plus floors above ground.

The OG version gave you the option of avoiding guards entirely until floor 59. whereupon there was one small fight and a further 'avoid the guards' minigame', whereupon you avoided confronting security except in empty areas of the building until you got to Aeris. You could fail, but the approach of 'not causing a ruckus until you rescue Aeris' made sense and the characters seemed to favour it.

That goes back to the aforementioned "gameplay and story segregation". In the OG, you can retry the guard avoidance/pillar game ad infinitum, and failing only resets the chess pieces. You can fight a functionally-unlimited number of troops on specific floors, but this never raises any alert levels and you're only caught because Reno et al. have preternatural senses and catch you when you're walking into an elevator. In fact, it looked worse there because it's implied that Shinra just let the party run rampant on all their floors, to the point of sabotaging Hojo's experiment, for a long period of time before intervening.

Which worked better than everything else and successfully killed two weapons and broke Sephiroth's unbreakable energy shield, allowing people into the crater to defeat him.

So I can specify again, it killed one Weapon at extreme-close range after its intended function (a long-range cannon) didn't do squat. It gets moved to Midgar, where parts of it fall off while firing, it shatters the windows on Shinra HQ and gets commandeered by Hojo after fulfilling its objective (killing Sapphire Weapon). It fulfills its goals, but does so in such a bizarre and haphazard way that it's less a terrifying weapon and more a device that succeeds through sheer luck.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm really confused at your comparisons to FFXIII. Are you confusing the light novels with the game or something, because we do not have this plethora of dialogue or nuance regarding the PSICOM troops under Jihl or Yaag. You get that type of expansion and backstory expansion of them in Fragments Before, Fragments After and Zero Hour, but I have no idea what you're even talking about when you say things like...

The other thing I'm expecting is a sense of what motivates these troops to do what they do. And PSICOM and the Guardian Corps did actually give us that. Some of them enjoyed their work, others saw it as a necessary evil and were reluctant. We got to see troops objecting to being asked to fire on people, we got the cavalry willing to turn a blind eye or even assist. We got one dude that we could save from that Adamanchelid.

No. We do not get this expansive back story or exploration of what motivates individual PSICOM troopers as they relentlessly hunt Lightning and the other L'Cie. You don't see things from their perspective. You don't talk to them. You don't overhear them. In fact, you don't even fight Guardian Corps troopers at all. They have nothing to do with pursuing the L'Cie. PSICOM immediately takes over the operation at the start of the Purge. So, I seriously have no idea what you're talking about here. It sounds you're confusing the conflicting feelings Yaag Rosch felt about his duty with all of PSICOM which is not true. That one trooper you save from the rampaging Oretortoise is one of the few examples of PSICOM troopers doing things independently.

And the Cavalry were 100% trying to overthrow Sanctum and obstruct PSICOM in their efforts.

As for the rest of your post, you essentially want to sacrifice any semblance of narrative cohesion and trappings of believability to dance around the Shinra Building. This does not add anything but unnecessary padding to an already massive, fully-loaded dungeon-esque location and climax to the story.

There was no reason they couldn't do something similar with the Shinra HQ. Conventional disguises and/or hiding, so you can get close to your target without getting her hurt, in which you have to social network your way through security, maybe do occasional sparring, and then have to fight your way out, once you get to the lab. If they could do it with Corneo, they could do it with Shinra HQ.

I'm seeing zero pay off, purpose, or excitement by adding extraneous Metal Gear Solid stealth elements, disguises, repetitive dressing mini-games, tedious puzzles/lock-breakings, and rummaging in offices. That's not ingenious or interesting.... That's the type of crap I'm so glad the Remake avoided. It's so not necessary, and I do not get how one would think we need more extraneous, open-ended filler FFXV-esque obstructions to the narrative's progression that only serve to dilute the climax here. More game mechanics and shit does not make a better game. Sometimes a more streamlined experience is appreciated, especially in a game that encourages replayability. I would rage if my just-for-fun replays of the Shinra Building had to be cluttered with crap like finding disguises to slip into and shit that looks like it's cribbing Locke's solo portions or something from FFVI.

The fight within the Shinra Parking Garage was an exciting opener for the chapter so it could ease down and focus on actual non-tedious stealth elements. Stealth elements that don't require BS "hide from the guards who should obviously see you by virtue of peripheral vision" mini-games. Tifa doesn't need to be a 1337 hacker, she already demonstrated amazing skills being able to utilize the furniture and light fixtures to navigate an electronically secured booth-office to obtain the required key card. Why do you hate the fact Mayor Domino actually plays an important role in the story besides being a random, bored paper-pusher who needlessly obstructs the heroes with meaningless filler quests rather than outright helping the heroes get their revenge on Shinra? It's frankly stupid to just have him arbitrarily playing The Riddler and making the infiltration harder cause he's bored.

As for the rest, you seem to have some issue with the heroes not being good enough. I don't know why, because they're clearly a cut above the rest and most Shinra, without going too hard to the point they render the threat of the villains minuscule.

Honestly, the Drum was a slog for me, something to get past to get back to the plot, with stuff you have to roll with like Hojo randomly endangering the super valuable prisoner that he was instructed to preserve at all costs and seemed to agree with how precious she was.

This is why we don't need unnecessary bloat like stealth mechanics, office rummaging and fraternizing with a bunch of people outside of what's necessary because you'll have plenty of time to enjoy Hojo's House of Horrors shortly

The entirety of The Drum was just long enough to interestingly showcase the menagerie of unique and quirky FFVII enemies you encountered in the OG, in a more interesting, relevant and narratively impactful context, other than simple random mobs or trash wave battles. Incorporating them into the Darkness of Shinra and Hojo's experiments gave them new life. The only problem I had with it was the difficulty of switching materia between people over and over, due to having two teams do stuff. They should've had a means of switching materia load outs completely, not just one-by-one. But that's a criticism for another thread.

Look how much the remake did with that. All those quests, all those conversations with Corneo enforcers, all that stuff you have to do to get close enough to your target that violence becomes an option, including disguising yourself to get through security without arousing suspicion. Gee, imagine that, how totally impossible for our leads to be inconspicuous, rather than just bursting in and killing everyone and hoping for the best.

....You mean the conversations about wanting to fuck Tifa and Aerith?

Their "conversations" were mostly about how they wanted to get down with women. There was no unique or interesting dialogue beyond that. It was cat-calling, lusting after, and being amazed by how sexy the characters were. Scotch and Kotch had some good characterization since they were actual secondary characters. The 3 thugs you met in Chapter 3 that were looking for Barret, and then subsequently attacked you with a Tonberry in Chapter 14 had some interesting dialogue and stuff since they too were actual recurring characters... But the actual random grunts? No, they're not... Characterized that deeply at all. They say far less interesting things than what you would hear from Shinra's Infantrymen and employees.

Why does what you hear from them already in the game so insufficient for you? Give me an example of actual dialogue you've heard from the Remake that actually fits your critieria because it's like we're either operating on two different wavelengths here or you may have missed what's been here all along. I certainly don't see what makes the Corneo goons proper examples compared to the Infantrymen in-game. The random goons, frankly don't say shit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So I can specify again, it killed one Weapon at extreme-close range after its intended function (a long-range cannon) didn't do squat. It gets moved to Midgar, where parts of it fall off while firing, it shatters the windows on Shinra HQ and gets commandeered by Hojo after fulfilling its objective (killing Sapphire Weapon). It fulfills its goals, but does so in such a bizarre and haphazard way that it's less a terrifying weapon and more a device that succeeds through sheer luck.

Its goal in Midgar was to bring down Seph's barrier around the Northern Crater. It ended up being a two-for-one shot with the barrier and Diamond Weapon.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's hard to argue how good something that didn't exist could be, so we're not going to get anywhere there. It doesn't seem so inherently impossible to do something like Chapter 9, just dial up the tension as well as the comedic aspects. Obviously a one to one recreation of the OG version wouldn't work, but the broad strokes of trying to avoid security rather than cutting through it would be an improvement for me. It may not be for you. Ok.

Re Corneo, we got them actively hunting AVALANCHE in an earlier chapter and that sidequest with the Tonberry, Skotch and Kotch being MCs in the Coliseum, Leslie who hates his job, but I'm more talking about just how much things got expanded and all the things you had to do to get inside Corneo Manor. What makes it so much more difficult to get in there than Shinra HQ, that you have to do all those favours for the Trio et al?

Both Aeris and Tifa discourage you from coming after them, and the rescue missions happen anyway after you realise they're in bigger trouble than they realise and/or are willing to admit.

In XIII, there are plenty of enemies with Guardian Corps in their name. We get a cutaway in Palompolum with people objecting to the extent of the Purge, Snow's speech actually reaches people, the characters talk about the motivations of the troops chasing them.

In 7 remake, Heidegger views his people are worthless and disposable, and instead of being contradicted, that viewpoint appears to be vindicated by the narrative, where they keep screwing up and needing correction or defeated in slapsticky ways.

As for the rest of your post, you essentially want to sacrifice any semblance of narrative cohesion and trappings of believability to dance around the Shinra Building.

I feel like that's more what we got, but obviously we disagree on that.