Steam Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Link: http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent/

It's now possible for mod authors on the Steam Workshop to charge Steam Dollars/real money for their mods. This is optional. Currently, this only applies to Skyrim mods, but more games are coming. This was preceded by the 100MP file size limit on the Skyrim Workshop being removed as several good mods are way over that limit (like, they're practically DLC themselves). To say interesting times are in for the modding community is an understatement.

Ironicly, some of the best (and most civil) responses to this have been from the Skyrim Nexus, which has the largest collection of Skyrim Mods on the internet: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12444/? and www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12449/?
 

Flintlock

Pro Adventurer
I've started to notice gamers getting angry about this - on the /r/gaming subreddit, for example. I'm not sure I fully understand it. It's not like anyone is being forced into it: if modders want to release their work for free, they will still be able to, and if gamers don't want to pay for mods, they don't have to. Mind you, I'm not much of a PC gamer (yet) and I don't really understand "gamer culture", so maybe someone else could fill me in on why it's causing such an uproar.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Up until this, charging money for mods has been illegal because of licensing reasons. So (nearly) everyone who mods does it because they like to mod. The worry is now people are going to mod because they can get money that way and the effect those people could have on the modding community.

The other thing is that because the modding community knows that no one is going to be making modding off of money, mod authors are pretty nice about other modders using the stuff they've come up with so long as every gives credit where it's due. The worry now is that people are going to be making money off things that they didn't make or making needed programs and assets for modding behind a paywall. This has already caused several mod authors over at Skyrim Nexus (practically the internet home of Skyrim modding) to specify that they do not want people using their assets in paid mods in their licensing section. And some mods, like SKSE (Skrim Script Extender) are probably in the majority of mods on people's load lists.

Probably the biggest issue people have with it is how the people really profiting from all this is Valve and Bethesda, not the mod author. Currently Valve and Betesda get 75% of all the money made from mod sales, and the author only gets 25% and that's only if their mods make over $100 a month. Yeah... a lot of people who would be okay paying for certain mods aren't willing to pay Valve and Bethesda for it. Especially as most of the "core" mods people instal are mods designed to fix all the bugs that Bethesda got around to fixing, or to get rid of the "casual gamer" balance TES has evolved into over the years. So no one wants to "reward" the gaming companies who made the vanilla games instead of the people who are actually fixing the games (or doing the bulk of the work to make awesome DLC for them).

Linked to that is the precedent paid modding leads to. The big worry is that if game companies find out they can make money off of modding they will make free modding much harder to do. Mostly by making it impossible to get the game editor without going through the company as well as making it difficult to upload game altering content anywhere but to the company approved modding site where people will have to pay to play game mods (with most of the money going to the game developer, not the mod developer). The reason this is a worry is because Fallout 4 is right around the corner and modders are wondering what the licensing is going to be on that. Because pretty much, all (legal) modding is constrained by whatever licensing is put in the game, and nobody can do anything about it. In short, modders are wondering if game companies are going to be offloading a lot of bugfixing and DLC content creation on them, only for the game companies to get most of the money from people buying the content. This is especially true for people who use over 100 mods in their load order. Not only are they worrying that their going to be paying $60+ for the official game and DLC, but even if they only have to pay a dollar per mod, that makes their mods cost more then the official game and the game company gets most of it. (Yes, people are already talking about mod piracy.)

Probably the people having it the worst right now are the mod authors who are now charging money for their mods and have taken them off the current modding websites. Let's just say it's gotten pretty nasty for some of them.

For rather obvious reasons, Valve and Bethesda are coming under huge amounts of fire for this. I'm actually not all that mad at Valve. We've got the Steam Trading Market and the Workshop tab. Exactly how long did we think it would go before they thought to combine the two? It'll be interesting to see how this works out with games other then Skyrim, though...

Bethesda though has been a poster child for everything good about game modding. Up until this point, they've let people get the game editor for free and have let people do whatever they want with it so long as the people using their assets don't make money off it. Now though, they're directly profiting from people's mods, and profiting better from it then the actual mod authors are. The big worry is that they'll want this from future games by default. And while people are plenty willing to pay Bethesda for the base game and DLC, they don't want to pay them for work they didn't do, (or in some cases, pay them for not doing enough bug fixing that they are now having to pay more money for to fix).

I'm still kinda wondering why they picked Skyrim for the game to introduce this concept. TES modding has been around since Morrowind and the TES modding community has had a good 15 years to estabish it's own way of doing things, with no one official butting into it. While launching this concept with Skyrim will definitely let everyone know about it, it's also the best way to stir controversy, mostly of the negative sort. Skyrim came out in 2011 and the modding community has been going strong since 2012, when the Creation Kit and the last DLC were introduced. Everybody knew how the modding system worked. Messing with a modding community that big means that everyone who's even a tiny bit into modding is going to know exactly how paid modding is going to work under Valve/Bethesda and there's no way for Valve to slowly introduce it into the community and let people get used to it. A lot less negative controversy would most likely have happened with a different game at the expense of not as many people paying attention to it at launch.

As off now, there's a huge split in the Skyrim modding community between the mod authors who are endorsing paid modding on one side, and most mod users and the mod authors who have said they will always have a free version of their mods available on the other. Easing this split is going to take a lot of work, and Valve and Bethesda have lost a lot of good will from mod users. Making that good will up again is going to take a lot of time.
 
Last edited:

Flintlock

Pro Adventurer
Is 25% really so bad? Authors and musicians get less than that when their books/albums are sold after the retailer and publisher have taken their cuts. And at least their works are completely original; mods could arguably be thought of as derivative works.

As for the content of a mod being used in another without getting permission from the original mod's creator (or without abiding by its licensing terms), that's why BY-NC-SA exists.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Is 25% really so bad? Authors and musicians get less than that when their books/albums are sold after the retailer and publisher have taken their cuts. And at least their works are completely original; mods could arguably be thought of as derivative works.
The problem is that mod authors see none of the 25% if their mods don't make more then $100 a month. The other problem is that no one want's to pay the company for work they haven't done (or worse, easy fixes the company could easily fix with a patch). One of the complaints about having an active modding community is that it gives the game companies the impression that they don't have to do so many bug fixes before the final game is launched as the modders are going to fix them anyway.

Also, there is currently no way to differentiate between mods that simply use game models and textures that were made by Bethesda and mods that use mostly custom models and textures that are the results of hours of work. And then there's the mods that are the results of many people working on them.

Besides, mods have never needed a retailer or publisher before. They've just never had permission to sell their stuff before, and everyone was okay with that. It's not like Bethesda or Valve help with making mods. Currently, Bethesda and Valve haven't done anything different, they've just said that as long as mod authors are content with them getting more money then the mod authors, then the mod authors can now charge people for their mods. Thing is, most mod users who would be willing to pay for good mods, don't want to be paying Bethesda mainly, they want to be paying the mod authors.

In general, modding is viewed as being anti-corporation by the gaming community and within the Skyrim modding community itself. A lot of modding (especially the large overhaul mods that people would actually be willing to pay money to the mod authors for) is done from the view that the TES series has gotten easier and is paying less attention to detail as time goes on and that Bethesda wanting to attract more casual gamers for less effort is the cause. So a lot of people who use those mods don't want to be paying Bethesda for what they think of as a problem that shouldn't need to be fixed in the first place. So mod authors who have started having paid only version of their mods are being viewed and treated kinda like Socialists who have gone over to the Capitalist side.

A lot of this is less anger about what is happening right now, then anger about the message this sends to game companies if it's successful. If people are willing to pay more money for the mods then for the game itself (which is really easy to do given how many mods people tend to use), then why should companies make it easy (legally speaking) for modders to post things up for free online? While modding the game yourself and not sharing it is hard to regulate, it wouldn't be that hard to regulate how mods are shared legally over the internet. The modding community is very leery of what will happen in the future as a lot of them buy the game because they know it can be modded. Essentially, they play the game because of the mods that are/can be made for it.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
25% is a decent markup if you compare it to other fields, although it's still way less than, say, the 70% app developers get for mobile apps. In this case though, Bethesda probably wanted a big chunk of the money too - plus mobile apps aren't sold for Apple & co to make profit out of, iirc.

On the one side, I'd like modders to earn a bit of money on the side for their hobby - iirc, you could offer paid maps and stuff in Starcraft for a while already, for example. On the other, it'll cause a serious market shift - expect loads of cheap mods to be spammed onto the workshop. There have been reports of people just taking mods off of TES Nexus and copying them onto the Workshop for money, without the original author's permissions.

I'm sure the upheaval isn't anywhere from done yet. And that this is an experiment from Valve - like selling hats was in TF 2, which proved to be very successful.
 

Flintlock

Pro Adventurer
A lot of this is less anger about what is happening right now, then anger about the message this sends to game companies if it's successful. If people are willing to pay more money for the mods then for the game itself (which is really easy to do given how many mods people tend to use), then why should companies make it easy (legally speaking) for modders to post things up for free online? While modding the game yourself and not sharing it is hard to regulate, it wouldn't be that hard to regulate how mods are shared legally over the internet. The modding community is very leery of what will happen in the future as a lot of them buy the game because they know it can be modded. Essentially, they play the game because of the mods that are/can be made for it.
This is the paragraph I was semi-expecting to see in your reply. Thank you for being so detailed, by the way.

I'm a bit torn about my reaction to it. On the one hand, it's easy to say to gamers, "if you don't like the system, don't use it, and eventually it'll go away". That's just economics. On the other hand, I have a feeling that it'll turn into the same scenario as pre-orders. Most serious gamers - or at least the ones serious enough to post on Reddit, etc. - hate pre-ordering (see also: Assassin's Creed Unity) but enough mainstream/casual gamers do it to make it profitable to the companies, and everyone suffers as a result. A small but substantial minority feels the need to campaign against it even though lots of other people are going to do it and won't even know the mechanics behind it.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Obsidian pretty much nailed why it's a bad idea. The motivation it provides for publishers/devs to push out games that aren't ready because they'll just make money over and above the retail price for modders fixing the problem is just too obvious. Mod-friendly devs have always fielded accusations that they get lazy about bugs since modders will just fix things, but now the developer is actually going to get MONEY for the stuff they couldn't be arsed to fix? Personally I think Bethesda should be punished for Skyrim's godawful inventory menus, not given a bonus for it.

I hadn't even thought about developers locking out easily modded games to ones that can only be done through the pay model. That's right up publishers' alleys and would be awful.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
This is the paragraph I was semi-expecting to see in your reply. Thank you for being so detailed, by the way.
I was following this pretty closely on the Skyrim Nexus yesterday (instead of actually gaming). It was interesting to see what people thought of it there. Here's what changes the admin is adding to the site in response: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12454/?

It's rather worth noting that the Steam Workshop has already had to pull one mod because the mod author used someone else's assets, and the creator of those assets has since come forward to say that people can't use his assets in paid mods (they are more then welcome to use them in free ones). The assets that were being used are from the mod that lets people import custom animations into the game.

Game modding has always held a place in my heart as that's pretty much what got me into playing with GIMP, Inkscape, and Blender in the first place. Which is turn got me playing around with art programs in general, which lead to me realizing that I loved the technical side of art and eventually going to school for graphic design. So game modding is pretty much what lead to me pursuing graphic design.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
In response to game devs becoming lazy because 'the mod community will fix it', I'm going to disagree - but that would just be my personal take on the matter, because if a game was broken enough to need mods to fix it, I would be embarrassed as fuck. I know that some of the scripts for certain quests (in relation to Skyrim) would have certain issues, but even then I'd feel obliged to fix them myself.

But, it's usually not the individual developers or scripters that decide to fix an issue, it's management that tells them to either move on to another project - DLC, TES 5, or Fallout 4 in the case of Bethesda - or fires them. If not, then projects like the unofficial patches for TES 3 and 4 wouldn't be necessary.
 

Lex

Administrator
This might sound dumb, but does this not also give the developer less incentive to actually implement bugfixes? "lol that bug is fixed in this paid mod over here, y don't you go buy it". OK that's an extreme example, but eesh.

I'm not a PC gamer (yet), but I did my forum growing up through a modding community for a PC game, and I'm a bit concerned about this. You could say it incentivises people to make great mods, which is true. What it also does is create a barrier to those mods, which is dumb. I think it could be handled right if they had clear set guidelines about what is allowed to actually be a "paid mod" and if there was some sort of QA going on, but as it stands it sounds like someone could release a shitty texture pack and charge whatever they want for it.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
That's the fear, yeah, but I'm seeing it differently - it will make developers want to create a solid base, but less content or variations because the mod community will supply it. I mean look at games like TF2, DotA 2, and CS: whatever - the game itself hasn't changed for a long time (as far as I know), but there's been huge activity in making more vanity items to make money with. Actually, same with Skyrim - afaik after the last DLC, noting happened there until this update allowing paid mods.

On another note: Killing Floor's EULA was updated to disallow paid mods:

Your Mods must be distributed for free, period. Neither you, nor any other person or party, may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for receiving or using them without prior written consent from Tripwire Interactive. You may exchange them at no charge among other end users and distribute them to others over the Internet, on magazine cover disks, or otherwise for free.

also: have a (fake subtitled) interview with a Valve employee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDyXIXyAZq0 (that video and the fake subs has been used in relation to my current employer, too, loloo)

also, this comic needs an extra pair of tiles: http://www.dorkly.com/post/65536/how-every-awful-video-game-thing-was-born

Also also plot twist: One of the first modders that agreed to offer a mod for sale tells his/her story, and after s/he gets second thoughts and wants to pull his mod, Valve outright no-u's him
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
In response to game devs becoming lazy because 'the mod community will fix it', I'm going to disagree - but that would just be my personal take on the matter, because if a game was broken enough to need mods to fix it, I would be embarrassed as fuck. I know that some of the scripts for certain quests (in relation to Skyrim) would have certain issues, but even then I'd feel obliged to fix them myself.

But, it's usually not the individual developers or scripters that decide to fix an issue, it's management that tells them to either move on to another project - DLC, TES 5, or Fallout 4 in the case of Bethesda - or fires them. If not, then projects like the unofficial patches for TES 3 and 4 wouldn't be necessary.

Well...A, you disproved your own point. Those kinds of decisions come from the publisher, not the developer. And B, yeah I thought those accusations were unfounded when it comes to mods as they are. But now there's money to be made on them.
 

Ghost X

Moderator
As long as there is market demand for shitty buggy games, corporations won't be "embarrassed" to make them. Going by that logic, they should already be embarrassed with all this downloadable content nonsense, amongst other things they've been doing in the last ten years or so to make more money. At the end of the day, they only care about making a profit. Their ethics are only held in place if they start losing profits when customers shift to the product of another company. It is a race to the bottom. So yes, mod folk who fix bugs in the game and make money for it is a bad thing. Those who make mods for extra content, I think it is okay they earn money. I think :awesome:.
 
Last edited:

Splintered

unsavory tart
Can modders do what other fancommunities do, release mods for free but also have a paetron set up and if people enjoy their work they can donate? Or is going through the publisher really the only way they can support themselves?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
That's the fear, yeah, but I'm seeing it differently - it will make developers want to create a solid base, but less content or variations because the mod community will supply it. I mean look at games like TF2, DotA 2, and CS: whatever - the game itself hasn't changed for a long time (as far as I know), but there's been huge activity in making more vanity items to make money with. Actually, same with Skyrim - afaik after the last DLC, noting happened there until this update allowing paid mods.
There is a huge difference between TF2, DotA 2, and CS: GO modding and Skyrim modding. The main difference is that TF2 and the like are all online games at their core and Skyrim is single player.

Because of this, mods for TF2 and the like are limited to things like skins, which are easy to install and charge people for and make sure the mod author gets paid for it. In fact, this is pretty much what goes on already in the TF2 shop. Only instead of being out on Steam for everyone to see, you can only see the TF2 shop inside the game. (Granted, with trading and crafting it's not quite the same, but the idea's the same...)

Skyrim though... we're talking mods that change the way the entire game is played. And mods that give 8+ hours of content. A lot of those mods contain the assets of many mod authors. And hundreds of hours of work has gone into some of those. Those are they type of mods most modders would be willing to pay for. Not simple reskins, as in the community of Skyrim modding, reskining things is considered to be a pretty basic mod all things considered. Modding for a single-player game where you don't have to worry about how it interacts with other people's systems is way more complex then modding for online games.

Also, most people who are part of the modding community don't just have a few mods. Instead, they're trying to cram as many mods into the game as possible without going over the mod limit (255) or crashing the game because of mod conflicts. Given the price mods are going for right now... oh boy...

Which is why I'm still wondering why Skyrim was chosen to be the flagship game for introducing paid modding. They really couldn't have chosen a better game to push all this controversy out into the open where it would rather spectacularly blow up the modding community. As opposed to staring with something more along the lines of TF2, DotA 2 or CS: GO, where people are already used to paying for extra stuff. And which also have smaller modding communities that really wouldn't have this type of reaction even if they didn't like it. Or at least, if they didn't like it, it wouldn't have spread over the interents anywhere near this fast.

Can modders do what other fancommunities do, release mods for free but also have a paetron set up and if people enjoy their work they can donate? Or is going through the publisher really the only way they can support themselves?
They can definitely do this. And the main Skyrim modding site just made it a lot easier to point people to the donation button. What they can't do is sell mods based on licensed stuff, which all mods are by default. What Bethesda is doing is letting people sell their mods though Steam so long as Valve and Bethesda get a significant cut of it. Essentially, they're letting mod authors put mods behind a paywall, so that in order to download mods, people have to pay for it.
 
Last edited:

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
jvA06NO.png

Guess I'll unsubscribe from all mods before playing again.
 

Flintlock

Pro Adventurer
Show's over.
Alden Kroll said:
Removing Payment Feature From Skyrim Workshop

We're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. For anyone who spent money on a mod, we'll be refunding you the complete amount. We talked to the team at Bethesda and they agree.

We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing. We've been shipping many features over the years aimed at allowing community creators to receive a share of the rewards, and in the past, they've been received well. It's obvious now that this case is different.

Source: Steam Community.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
At least they had the balls to realize they made a ridiculously stupid decision and reverse it.
 

Airling

Ninja-Fairy-Jedi-Princess
I still stand behind the principle though. If they bring this back (which it seems they might, just not on Skyrim) and say sales will be split 20% for Valve, 30% for the game dev, and 50% for the mod author, it will sound reasonable to me.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Historically trying to make things that were always free not free anymore on PC don't end well. See GFWL.

Half decent modders get jobs in the industry and great ones get jobs in legendary studios. That's enough pay off. They shouldn't try changing the landscape of a market for generations to come.

If you want to make money load up blender and photoshop and make a gun skin for CS:GO. Modding has never been about the quick cash in and should never be.

With the way mods work and build off one another(and break one another) the only way this can and should work is if payment is 100% optional and on a "pay what you want" basis.

Even if every mod was 99 cents. I'd be out 200$+ having to rebuy them or deal with 200 different ads. Yeah fuck that.

Really interested to see what game they will try to reintroduce this in. I'm sure the mod market for that game will be really bad.
 
Last edited:

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Exactly, Gabe. Serious modders basically use their mods as a portfolio of sorts. Especially for Bethesda games, and the like.
And, really, a lot of mods are awful, there's no reason anyone should get money for them. And, as stated previously, this just provided to many shady motivations to publishers and developers.
 
Top Bottom