SUCKER PUNCH

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

I assumed that all the other girls were lobotomized, or something similar. I don't think they died in the real world.

Spoiler

It can't be lobotomization, because the "high roller" wasn't there yet, but it's gonna be SOMEthing...

I think in this instance the dream world shifted the roles. In the real world the asylum is a well-respected establishment headed by Dr. Gorski. In truth however, it is a corrupt organization where Blue is really the one in charge. This correlates directly with the brothel that fronts as a theater.

The end where Gorski finally puts Blue away thus reasserts where the control actually lies. The tragedy is that it could not be manifested in the fantasy because Baby Doll couldn't/never had the chance to see it that way.

Understandably that the assertion of control couldn't be manifested in the fantasy, but my point was more along the lined that we see BLue abusing/threatening Gorski in Baby Doll's Coping World, which I'm assuming correlates to some type of similiar action on his part in the Real World. If that was happening, I was wondering what would have kept Gorski from reporting him to the police earlier, but it may have been something closer to the fact that it would've been hard to prove what he did legally until then.

I think what annoys me most about these negative reviews is that they are hammering down this idea that the movie is made exclusively for a male audience, describing it as "teenage boy fantasy" and whatnot. Its something I find personally really offensive. Girls like action movies. Girls play video games. Girls like to escape/imagine themselves as doing impossible things while looking cool too. It's just so depressing that all these reviews seem to miss the fact that that this was what the movie was about.

I completely agree, but I think that one of the things that makes it tough is the narrative makes it into a fantasy, which immediately makes the jackass critics assume, "this is the director's fantasy world for her, and because he's a male, it's objectifying to womenz!!!!1" This is Baby Doll's portrayl of herself, in her own mind. It's not like any girl who's wanted to kick ass with a sword is gonna do it in a goddamn nun's outfit the whole time, they'll be doing it in something that's attractive and idealized for them.

(I'd meant to mention before, but I like how, up until the VERY end when she's forced to confront Blue directly and then with Sweetpea outside, Baby Doll only looks confident when she's in her Escapist World, it really shows the transformation from her mental to total commitment of her fight).

To quote this awesome person and prove how nerdy I actually am - it's like in that Buffy episode Becoming Part 2 where Buffy is fighting Angelus. All her friends are gone and she has no weapons. Then Angelus is like "no friends, no weapons, no hope. Take all that away and what's left?" then he tries to stab her and Buffy catches the sword between her palms and is like "ME." THAT is what Sucker Punch is like.

That reference was perfect >9000.

And just for the hell of it, here's a really awesome neutral review of the movie that totally agrees with me

Eh, the review was confusing, especially the beginning where he's referring to Sweetpea's dream world, and Baby Doll as a construction of her fantasy made my head reel. Overall the best point is made at the end.

I’m not arguing that you shouldn’t hate Sucker Punch.
All I hope is that you’re hating it for the right reasons.

FUN FACT: The film is gonna be called "Angel Wars" in Japan.


X

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

I can understand the idea that it's really focused on males in this film though. Let's be honest, why the hell else would the girls wear those titillating outfits except to remind any males in the audience that they are, in fact, female?

IDK MAN MAYBE BABY DOLL IS JUST A REALLY BIG SAILOR MOON FAN.

Though I do agree Baby Doll's outfit was pretty overkill, I thought the others were just pretty damn cool if I had any chance of looking good in Sweet Pea's outfit I would totally wear it to kill zombies and stuff

Eh, the review was confusing, especially the beginning where he's referring to Sweetpea's dream world, and Baby Doll as a construction of her fantasy made my head reel. Overall the best point is made at the end.

I think he's trying to reference the twist of the movie - where we learn that the action sequences are really Sweet Pea's, and how Baby Doll is the hero/guardian angel in her fantasy. It's one of the ten billion things I found people missed about the movie 8[

 

[Tetsujin]

FUN FACT: The film is gonna be called "Angel Wars" in Japan.


X

Heard this in the KojiPro podcast.

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

The girls really only kick ass in their dreams — or rather, in a dream within their dream — and even there, a man is calling the shots.

The fuck? Aside from the fact that this "man" is really nothing but a figment of BABYDOLL'S imagination, I'm so tired of this gd mentality that one positive male influence somehow cheapens any of what the girl's accomplished on their own. The guy didn't do anything. HE DIDN'T EVEN REALLY EXIST (ending notwithstanding and even then...)

Also about their outfits: Who would want to look mundane in their own fantasy? Most people, whether in their own heads or creating a PC in a video game are ALWAYS going to make their avatar aesthetically pleasing as well as powerful. The point is that they're in control and powerful and sexy on their own terms in that world.

Though I do agree Baby Doll's outfit was pretty overkill, I thought the others were just pretty damn cool if I had any chance of looking good in Sweet Pea's outfit I would totally wear it to kill zombies and stuff

...ngl I would wear Baby Doll's outfit all day everyday if I could :C It was my favorite.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Spoiler

The fuck? Aside from the fact that this "man" is really nothing but a figment of BABYDOLL'S imagination, I'm so tired of this gd mentality that one positive male influence somehow cheapens any of what the girl's accomplished on their own. The guy didn't do anything. HE DIDN'T EVEN REALLY EXIST (ending notwithstanding and even then...)

Also about their outfits: Who would want to look mundane in their own fantasy? Most people, whether in their own heads or creating a PC in a video game are ALWAYS going to make their avatar aesthetically pleasing as well as powerful. The point is that they're in control and powerful and sexy on their own terms in that world.



...ngl I would wear Baby Doll's outfit all day everyday if I could :C It was my favorite.

Spoiler

in my dreamworld i would dress leik this bro:

and also kill people melodically. and use ice. and a sniper rifle. and have a hoodie cause everywhere is cold all the time.

OH AND ALSO I COULD TURN INTO AN ANGEL ALA PANTY AND STOCKING AND KILL PEOPLE WITH MY SUPER HOODIE.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

I think he's trying to reference the twist of the movie - where we learn that the action sequences are really Sweet Pea's, and how Baby Doll is the hero/guardian angel in her fantasy. It's one of the ten billion things I found people missed about the movie 8[

Spoiler

O_o;

I don't see it that way at all.

The action sequences in what I earlier referred to as the Escapism Worlds are all still Baby Doll's. That's why she's the only one who appears in the Oriental one against the giant Samurai. It's Baby Doll going to a different place in her mind, while she dances, so that she removes herself from the reality of what's going on, in order to let everyone else succeed in obtaining the Map/Lighter/Knife. Given the type of PTSD that Baby Doll's experiencing from the events in the opening sequence, I don't think that she'd be able to dance like that for anyone without that sort of mental escape from her situation. Also, the oriental sequence is representative of Baby Doll convincing herself that she needs to fight back, and that this is how she can do it, she "already has all the weapons she needs, all she needs to do is fight."

Baby Doll is still who Sweetpea's guardian angel is speaking through, though. The quote at the beginning mentions that your guardian angel will scream through a demon if it has to. This is referring to Baby Doll's guardian angel speaking through Blue/the High Roller, because without the threat of lobotomization, Baby Doll wouldn't have ever been motivated to get out of the Asylum. Her guardian angel also speaks through the actions of the cook, because, after baby Doll saves Rocket from him, it makes Sweetpea realize that her sister is in danger, and she needs to get out. Without both of those things, Sweetpea never would have agreed to attempt the escape, and never would have made it out of the Asylum and back to her parents.

The twist was that you learn that the STORY is Sweetpea's, in that she's the focus of the story. It's about Baby Doll's sacrifice to save everyone, but the important person is Sweetpea, because she was the true innocent. Sweetpea's so firmly rooted in reality and in keeping her sister safe that she would NEVER be able to escape the Asylum. It's the same reason that she's initially against Baby Doll's plan, until she gets the pushes from her guardian angel, and the other reason why I very firmly believe that the fantasies we see in the Escapism World absolutely are not hers.

Rocket & Sweetpea's story: Rocket runs away from home, because she has issues with her parents. Sweetpea follows her little sister despite having an essentially ideal life, and they both end up in the Asylum. Rocket feels bad that she's the reason her sister's stuck in the Asylum, but she can't stand up and take a risk to save her, because Sweetpea won't let her because she's too protective of her little sister. She'd rather play it safe.

Baby Doll shows up at the Asylum. With the threat of lobotomization, Baby Doll wants to escape, and because Rocket wants to save her big sister, they team up. When Sweetpea learns that Baby saved Rocket from the cook, she starts to realize that she can't always be there to protect her little sister, and they need to get out, so she goes along with Baby Doll's plan. It isn't until Rocket gets stabbed that Sweetpea finally listens to her little sister, and acknowledges Rocket's wishes to get her big sister back home to her parent's, and tell their mom she loved her, no matter what it costs her.

When this happens, and it comes down to Baby Doll & Sweetpea going to escape, Baby Doll knows the pain of losing her sister, and deep down, she has the need to save someone. She realizes that between her & Rocket's wishes that Sweetpea's the most important person to get out, and she's also the only one that had no reason to be locked in an Asylum in the first place, (aside from following her sister), and absolutely can't stay there now. That's why she sacrifices herself to ensure that Sweetpea gets back to her family.

Baby Doll's actions and sacrifice also ensure that Blue gets caught, and likely that the police investigation gets opened on her step father, but the focus isn't on that. It's on Sweetpea going home to her parents who love her, because her guardian angel protected her.

Offtopic: you need a Marceline avatar.


X

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

...ngl I would wear Baby Doll's outfit all day everyday if I could :C It was my favorite.

GAWD ZEE Y U SUCH A BAD FEMINIST

Hand over your tits grrl you do not DESERVE your womanhood.

oh god guys I am overly invested in this movie please make me stop

@X

Spoiler

I thought it was pretty obvious that the war-dreams were Sweet Peas. Baby Doll never saw the boy (the boy in the WWII sequence) or the old man/spirit guide at the bus stop who is present in all those dreams. It's really the only way it justifies their presence in the fight scenes. Note that it doesn't exactly invalidate anything you've said, it's just that it would have had to have come from Sweet Pea's mind. Unless you go into some weird explanation where Baby Doll was somehow able to construct those fantasies after her mind is gone and and therefore able to watch over Sweet Pea at the bus station. But that would just be bizarre and there's not much to suggest it.

Offtopic: you need a Marceline avatar.

LOL I changed it before looking at this thread. Funny enough I chose the same image. Having great taste is awesome, isn't it? BD

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@X

Spoiler

I thought it was pretty obvious that the war-dreams were Sweet Peas. Baby Doll never saw the boy (the boy in the WWII sequence) or the old man/spirit guide at the bus stop who is present in all those dreams. It's really the only way it justifies their presence in the fight scenes. Note that it doesn't exactly invalidate anything you've said, it's just that it would have had to have come from Sweet Pea's mind. Unless you go into some weird explanation where Baby Doll was somehow able to construct those fantasies after her mind is gone and and therefore able to watch over Sweet Pea at the bus station. But that would just be bizarre and there's not much to suggest it.

Spoiler

I guess it's two fold (and works both ways) because both are using it as a coping mechanism of some kind:
• One is the present: The sequences are looking at it from Baby Doll's point of view at the time, as Escapism during her dances. I don't think that, especially after the abusive situation that she just came from, she'd be able to open herself up like that without some sort of mental escape that she's using to reinforce her own empowerment through the situation. It would also explain why those fantasies only take place when Baby Doll's dancing. (How I was looking at it).
• The second is reflection: The sequences from Sweetpea's point of view after she's on the bus, and while recalling / coping with the effects of her own traumatic situation and finding a way to deal with the after effects of her own PTSD. (How you were looking at it).

The interesting thing is that, (aside from the fact that they aren't going to have the same epic escapist fantasy [& the presence of the wiseman/young male soldier]), there's no really good reason that it isn't / couldn't be both, and still work with the film, because there are two stories tied together but altered by perspective (past vs. present). Also, the fantasies fit both with Baby Doll's internalization of regaining her power and fighting to help everyone after the indicent with her step dad, and they also fit with Sweetpea's augmentation of Baby Doll as her heroic, idealized saviour.

It's funny that the difference is all because when I think about it, I recall the events in Sucker Punch as taking place during the film, and not a story being told after the fact. As soon as you pointed it out from that perspective, the action pieces being presented by Sweetpea totally made sense, but seeing them as Baby Doll's still doen't make any less sense to me.


tl;dr - During the events, they're Baby Doll's; being remembered, they're Sweetpea's.
Does that make sense?

LOL I changed it before looking at this thread. Funny enough I chose the same image. Having great taste is awesome, isn't it? BD

X

 

[Joker]

Spoiler

Except the problem with that is that Baby Doll is a construct - a figment of Sweet's imagination, created SPECIFICALLY to help her cope with everything.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

Except the problem with that is that Baby Doll is a construct - a figment of Sweet's imagination, created SPECIFICALLY to help her cope with everything.

Spoiler

Except that she can't be, becuase without Baby Doll's motivation to escape before she gets lobotomized AND the fact that she saves Rocket from the cook, Sweetpea never has a reason to break out of the Asylum. Not to mention Baby Doll distracts real people, so that Sweetpea can escape in the end. Plus, without Baby Doll getting lobotomized, Blue never gets busted by the police, and Gorski never gets control back of the Asylum. It's also why you see the final scenes with Baby Doll take place in the real world, because Sweetpea doesn't know about it, and thus doesn't see it in her fantasy recollection of the events that she was involved in.

X

 

[Dana Scully]

Just saw this late last night, haven't read any of the posts here yet so I don't colour my opinion so apologies if I repeat stuff that's already been brought up.

Spoiler

KADJKHAKLDHGAKLDHGKLASHDGILADHG SO AWESOME

- I already had a massive crush on Rocket 5 seconds after she appeared on screen. Almost cried when she died.
- Sweet Pea/Rocket were easily my two favourites. I also thought their acting was the best of all the girls.
- Oh my fucking lol we need a HATERS GONNA HATE .gif of the pimpin' mayor strutting into the theatre.
- Baby Doll x Rocket OTP though I kinda wanted to ship Baby Doll x Sweet Pea at parts
- I think my favourite of all the fantasy worlds was the WWI one, because you can't go wrong with steamwork nazis and mechas and air ships and trenches. There were some scenes that reminded me vividly of other movies, mainly the part where the dragon crashes into the arched bridge as it chases the plane (HP4 anyone?).
- One of the friends I saw this with said the fight scene choreography reminded him of Dead Fantasy, in a very good way. I have to say I agree.
- I can see where all the comparisons to a video game come from. Lots of snobby critics were saying it like it was a bad thing, the noobs.
- I'm not terribly feminist but I did enjoy watching a group of girls take matters into their own hands and kick ass in a decidedly spectacular fashion.

So, this is how I interpreted the various worlds: there's the real world, which is the insane asylum, the primary fantasy world, which is the brothel/theatre they spend most of their time in, then the secondary worlds, which are all the crazy dance-induced worlds. As soon as that lobotomy scene with the girls acting it out started, that's when the switch to the primary world happened. I presume this happens just shortly after Baby Doll's arrival. During that first night, Sweet Pea mentions that 3 girls died last time someone tried to escape - I'm not sure if that was just foreshadowing, or a reflection of what happened in the real world (presumably Amber and Blondie were shot by guards, and Rocket was stabbed fighting with the cook for the real knife). I'd like to think it was a reflection of what happened IRL, but if the timelines between the primary/secondary worlds are supposed to line up that wouldn't make sense.

Rambling a bit, sorry. Anyways, as soon as Baby Doll got punched out (also lol surprise nutcrunch) that's when she returned to the primary world. The doctor says 'she looked like she wanted me to do it', which I presume is so Dr. Dance-Instructor would discover that Orderly-Pimp had been forging signatures.

HOKAY OFF TO READ REST OF THREAD NAO

 

[Dana Scully]

Spoiler

In regards to how the abusive relationship between Gorski and Blue reflects what's happening in the real world - I think that, in the real world, Gorski had no idea that Blue was forging her signature and being a corrupt perverted asshole. Blue is usurping control from her, even if she doesn't know it, which is why he's in charge in the burlesque world. His physical abuse of Gorski represents his abuse of Gorski's name/signature.

As for the whole thing being from Sweet Pea's perspective - trippy, man, didn't even pick up on that until you guys mentioned that. I don't think any of the girls were 'imagined' - only the Wise Man - but I do see how the Nazi boy shows that at least some of the story was from Sweet Pea's POV.

ALSO I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT I NEED THE SOUNDTRACK FOR THIS MOVIE LIKE WOAH.

 

[Joker]

DUDE THE SOUNDTRACK WAS AWESOME

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

In regards to how the abusive relationship between Gorski and Blue reflects what's happening in the real world - I think that, in the real world, Gorski had no idea that Blue was forging her signature and being a corrupt perverted asshole. Blue is usurping control from her, even if she doesn't know it, which is why he's in charge in the burlesque world. His physical abuse of Gorski represents his abuse of Gorski's name/signature.

As for the whole thing being from Sweet Pea's perspective - trippy, man, didn't even pick up on that until you guys mentioned that. I don't think any of the girls were 'imagined' - only the Wise Man - but I do see how the Nazi boy shows that at least some of the story was from Sweet Pea's POV.

ALSO I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT I NEED THE SOUNDTRACK FOR THIS MOVIE LIKE WOAH.

Spoiler

When Babydoll first enters the theater in the real world you can get a glimpse of all of the girls, so yeah, they're all real. Blondie was totally into that catfight.

I tried watching the movie with the POV as Sweet Pea's, but it makes less sense to me that way. I viewed the ending as another world imagined by Babydoll -- she even closes her eyes and drifts off right before that scene. Mostly because it gives the film a nice ending and the nitty gritty of Sweet Pea on the run trying to get home wasn't really important. Babydoll's in PARADISE now, man. She gave her friend the ending she felt she deserved.

& basically everything X said in his previous post blaaaah

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

KADJKHAKLDHGAKLDHGKLASHDGILADHG SO AWESOME

- I already had a massive crush on Rocket 5 seconds after she appeared on screen. Almost cried when she died.
- Baby Doll x Rocket OTP though I kinda wanted to ship Baby Doll x Sweet Pea at parts
- I think my favourite of all the fantasy worlds was the WWI one, because you can't go wrong with steamwork nazis and mechas and air ships and trenches. There were some scenes that reminded me vividly of other movies, mainly the part where the dragon crashes into the arched bridge as it chases the plane (HP4 anyone?).

-ASDFGHJKL;YES. I have had a massive girlcrush on Jena Malone since Donnie Darko. Rocket is my favourite ;.;
- http://fuckyeahsweetrocketdoll.tumblr.com
-that one was my favourite as well. Reminded me of a weird hybrid of Resident Evil and COD. Also trufax, the minions in the castle realm were actually called Orcs (I'm pretty sure they used the same or extremely similar designs to the LOTR films). The mech in the Nazi world is also called Meka.

Here's a synopsis of how I saw the realities:
There is the real world (asylum), Baby Doll's dream (brothel) and Sweet Pea's dream (action world)

The perspective of the real world is shared between Baby Doll and Sweet Pea - that is, the film starts with Baby Doll's perspective and ends with Sweet Pea's.
Aside: You could also MAYBE say that the initial reality segments are memories/imaginations of Sweet Pea's, since the film opens on a stage with a voice over by her.

The brothel world begins right before the lobotomy and it is the most direct reflection of reality. It opens with Sweet Pea in the role of Baby Doll, taking off her wig as she gets up off the chair. I think this is an early indication of the alternating/joint perspective theory. This reality is coloured by how Baby Doll sees things going on in the asylum. It's not clear what the brothel-world events reflect in reality. For example, what exactly does the dancing translate to in the real world? What about death?

The other dream is Sweet Pea's, as evidenced by the presence of the boy and old man. This is more-or-less a hyper dramatized view that is further removed from reality. It's all about Baby Doll kicking ass like a boss. She is Sweet Pea's guardian angel after all.

I tried watching the movie with the POV as Sweet Pea's, but it makes less sense to me that way. I viewed the ending as another world imagined by Babydoll -- she even closes her eyes and drifts off right before that scene. Mostly because it gives the film a nice ending and the nitty gritty of Sweet Pea on the run trying to get home wasn't really important. Babydoll's in PARADISE now, man. She gave her friend the ending she felt she deserved.

BUT LIKE X SAID, THIS ALSO MAKES SENSE. There are a lot of theories I've seen that make perfect sense to be quite honest.

Since I've seen this movie more times that I care to admit this week, I'll make a separate post of random tidbits/easter eggs I noticed.

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

It's not clear what the brothel-world events reflect in reality. For example, what exactly does the dancing translate to in the real world? What about death?

I'm of the opinion right now that the "dancing" she was doing in the brothel world was her acting out a scene in the theater in the real world. (Mostly because of that one awesome feminist review, lol.)

The death thing I'm still totally unsure of. I mean on the one hand he could have killed them, but I think that would be pretty hard to hide from Gorski. The general opinion seems to be that it's a metaphor for lobotomy. And we never really see them "die" or their bodies, even in the brothel world afterwards. So maybe that's what happened. Or they were taken away or something. MAYBE I SHOULD GO SEE IT AGAIN

There are a lot of theories I've seen that make perfect sense to be quite honest.

Hearing the various theories makes this movie all the more fun. : )

 

[Joker]

I stick with my theory

 

[Mantichorus]

I'd describe this as more of a fun film than a good film. The two aren't synonymous for me, anyway.

GOOD, NOT EXACTLY FUN = Event Horizon
GOOD AND FUN = Scott Pilgrim, Serenity, Dog Soldiers
FUN, NOT EXACTLY GOOD = SuckerPunch, Cutey Honey, Super Mario Bros

Spoiler: impressions left with me after leaving the cinema

I didn't really start to get into this film until we entered the fantasy world shrine. The awesome fight scenes overshadow everything else in this film.

The lobotomy scene was INCREDIBLY hard for me to watch, as I get really squeamish about eyes. *shudder*

My favourite of the girls was, without a doubt, Rocket, although Amber is a close second, being a true sweetheart and getting all the cool toys.

Following on from the above, Blondie's death had no emotional resonance for me, as it came straight after Amber's death, which was at most ten minutes after Rocket's. Personally, considering how he was until that point, if Blondie really believed that Blue would do NOTHING after finding out about the escape plan, she kinda had it coming. (I have no sympathy towards genre blindness.)

The Wiseman is my new hero. Nothing else needs to be said about him.

 

[Russell]

Finally seen this movie today, don't really know to to think of it.

Spoiler

I thought it was pretty obvious that the war-dreams were Sweet Peas. Baby Doll never saw the boy (the boy in the WWII sequence) or the old man/spirit guide at the bus stop who is present in all those dreams. It's really the only way it justifies their presence in the fight scenes.

Makes more sense now. Backed up by the fact that

Spoiler

Baby Doll says to Sweet Pea something to the effect of "this is your story", also I think that all that talk about Angels wasn't for Babydoll, it was about Baby Doll, she is the angel in this story.

 

[Dana Scully]

I wanna get the soundtrack though I will say I didn't care for some of the rap, but the other stuff was pretty good. is it worth getting?

YES xA MILLION

Seriously, it's a fantastic soundtrack and money well spent. I didn't like the rap either at first but the sheer arrogance it oozes grew on me and now I love it.

And this week I intend to go out and buy the extended edition on bluray oh yes.

 

[Geostigma]

Whats the name of the band that covers the pixies song "where is my mind" I quite like the rendition of the song and how its applied in this movie.
And yes im to lazy to google it.

 

[Dana Scully]

Whats the name of the band that covers the pixies song "where is my mind" I quite like the rendition of the song and how its applied in this movie.
And yes im to lazy to google it.

Yoav feat. Emily Browning (aka Baby Doll)

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Would someone be so kind as to detail what the extended scenes consist of, and how you feel about them?


X

 

[Zee]

The two deleted scenes:

Love is a Drug:

High Roller scene:

I really love both scenes idk. The High Roller scene feels like more of a necessity in the film because of what it represents, and how it reflects Babydoll's decision in the real world. The Love is a Drug scene is visually amazing but I like how the dances sort of reflect something about the girls, and I find it interesting in that scene of glamour Babydoll is the most...grounded.

Also I'm gonna post some Sucker punch headcanons later because this fandom has the best speculation.

 

[Dana Scully]

Fffff why did they have to take the High Roller scene out of the theatrical release. I'm so picking this up on the way home today.

IIRC, the extended edition also has some extended action scenes, which is sweet.