The Early Days of the Science Department

Do any of you FFVII scholars know if there's any canon material (outside the games themselves) giving information about the early days of the science department, and in particular:

- Grimoire Valentine's personality and his relationship with Vincent
- Gast's personality
- Hollander's personality

And who know what about Jenova, and when?

Someone recently asked me if I could shed any light on these questions, but I wasn't much help, so I thought I'd ask you guys if you know of any sources of information. I do have the Crisis Core Ultimania, but I haven't been able to find it ever since I packed it away while re-painting my room.
 

Lex

Administrator
I want to know more about Gast, I've always found him fascinating. As a character he was so built up in VII and I was always super confused about his near complete absence from the compilation when he was such an important character in the backstory.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I want to know more about Gast, I've always found him fascinating. As a character he was so built up in VII and I was always super confused about his near complete absence from the compilation when he was such an important character in the backstory.

Yeah, I want to know more about Gast he is such a perfectly wasted character that gets no focus at all. I mean Dirge of Cerebrus is a big example where one mention of his character is in the game even though he is the one who was originally in charge of the Jenova project. In the original Ultimania of FF7 Gast was part of the reason why Lucrecia chose Hojo over Vincent. We really didn't need Grimoire because he was just a plot device for drama than an actual character.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
The trouble with Gast is we have a lot of information about what he did, but not what he thought about what he did. Or at least not until he's already left Shin-Ra. All we really have is that Sephrioth thought better of him then he did of Hojo, which doesn't really help us any, and that he left Shin-Ra because he had problems with how they were experimenting with stuff. Only, he's the one who started the experiments in the first place.

From what I can gather, the Science Department in Shin-Ra thrived off of competition, and as such all the lead scientists, or at least those in charge of the different projects, are in a competion with each other to see who can provide Shin-Ra with the best bang for it's buck. So they're all willing to go to some lengths to get the funding for their work.

The other problem is that none of them are very much elaborated on and much of they're characterization depends on players already being familiar with the mad scientist genre. Hojo is your stock mad scientist who only cares about science, and just wants to see his theories be proven right. Gast is the typical "I didn't know what I was getting myself into until it was too late to do anything about it except run" person. Hollander is the slighted scientist who wants to get back at everyone. Grimore is the luckiest out of all of them and takes the "I was playing around with forces I didn't know about and got killed becasue of it" role; at least he isn't around to see what was to become of the department.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I want to know about how long he was in Sephiroth's early years. It seems to imply Gast was only there for a short time until he left Shinra. I think the biggiest thing missing about Gast is him as a person because all we got is him as a plot device or concept.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
Sephiroth seemed pretty enamored with Ghast, as much as he seemed dismissive with Hojo. I think anyone that holds that respect from Sephiroth, I'd like to see more of. That would be interesting.
 
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S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
The short answer to your question, LA, is “not really”. There are, however, things about the scientists and department that we can deduce from the provided information. I’ve given some things below that may be worth discussing.

Who knew that Jenova was an alien?
When the party first visit Cosmo Canyon in the OG, the elders there insinuate that Gast had left Shinra because he had discovered the truth about Jenova. Their knowledge of this means, of course, that Gast knew and told Bugenhagen. Grimoire and Lucrecia (theoretically) were dead by this point so he’s out. Hojo admits to Rufus at Northern Crater that he learned the truth after discovering Gast’s tapes of Ifalna at Icicle Inn, but that information had been somewhat of a secret given the President’s reaction (bar in mind that almost 23 years have passed by this point). Hollander’s claim in Crisis Core that “only he can stop the degradation” suggests that he has done his research regarding Jenova’s genetics. It would not be impossible, therefore, that he had stumbled upon the same truth that Gast had. I doubt Hojo would have shared the info with him but that’s not impossible either as it would have affected SOLDIER experimentation. Gillian had no reason to know and, if I remember correctly, she left Shinra after Angeal was born to raise him. My best guess is that only Gast, Bugenhagen, Hojo and Hollander (latterly) were aware of Jenova’s origins.

Hollander’s Personality
Given that the only part of the Compilation which mentions Hollander is Crisis Core, we obviously don’t have much to go on. I agree with the previous comments regarding the inherent competitive nature of the Science Dept. Hollander is known throughout Crisis Core as one of the main antagonists. We are therefore inclined to hold him in a negative light. One small sympathy we may have is how he was bullied and alienated by Hojo after the latter’s success in the Jenova Project. However, considering the level of bitterness he holds means that he lends his expertise to a man capable of serious damage to the world’s infrastructure (Genesis), all sympathies are lost. In addition, not only did he offer up his unborn child for experimentation, he played no role as a father in Angeal’s life. We can thus deduce that he was a bit of an arse.

Grimoire’s Personality
Again, little is known about this guy because he is only mentioned in Dirge of Cerberus. I agree with jazzflower92 that Grimoire’s existence is more of a plot device than a genuine part of the overall picture. As far as I know, it is implied but never outright stated that Grimoire Valentine was Head of the Science Dept. His interactions with Lucrecia also suggest that he is a gentle soul, a man with experience and someone to be trusted. Which may be true, but his son became a Turk. While the Turks may have been a different organisation back then, a certain mentality would have been required, which suggests to me that Vincent had either a difficult or strict upbringing. This would directly reflect on Grimoire’s parenting – whether he was a disciplinarian or absent or whatever. Vincent does, however, seem to show a level of respect if not fondness for his father because he is hurt when Lucrecia reveals the details of his father’s death, not to mention the fact he wears his scarf as part of his outfit. It is also the case that Mako energy was in use for at least a decade while Grimoire was at Shinra. As a scientist studying the effects of Mako and familiar with the Chronicles of Yore, he MUST have realised that Mako production was harmful to the Planet. Does that make him a bad guy or a guinea-pig? One other thing to note is that there is a general misinterpretation about Grimoire’s role in Deepground. Grimoire had nothing to do with Deepground as he died long before the facility was completed. It is mentioned in Dirge of Cerberus: Online that the experiments with stagnant Mako which created Nero were based upon Grimoire’s work. That much is true, but his documents detailed an ‘unknown power’ in the Mako. He was referring to Chaos, but the DG scientists didn’t realise, and hoped to use the alternate properties of the substance to create a powerful child. This led to the loss of countless unborn life. In my opinion, he was the last of the non-morally-corrupt leading scientists but there is not enough info to go on.

Department of Science
There are a few tidbits worth mentioning that some people may not know.

- Prior to Shinra, Inc.’s relocation to Midgar in 1979 from a yet-to-be-disclosed location, there existed at their HQ the ‘Gast Laboratory’ which is where the Jenova specimen was first taken upon its discovery.
- There is another scientist which has been named (outside of Deepground where a handful of others were also named). This is Professor Rayleigh in episode 5 of Before Crisis.
- While Rayleigh deems the secrets of Shinra more important than her own life, another unnamed scientist in Crisis Core, unrelated to any of this, also speaks of his desire to get revenge on the department for the abominable things they did to the last Cetra. This shows that resignation by way of a moral stance is not something that only Gast did.
- While his role in the company is never confirmed, Bugenhagen is a former employee of Shinra, and it would be expected that he belonged to the Science Department. This also explains why Gast not only considers him an acquaintance, but a friend or even a mentor of sorts.
- It is repeatedly stated that the experiments of Project Jenova (S) took place at Shinra Manor, while it is suggested that Project Jenova G took place at the Gast Laboratory.


I will also write a piece regarding my understanding of Gast but I'm short of time at the minute so I'll post that later.
 
- While his role in the company is never confirmed, Bugenhagen is a former employee of Shinra, and it would be expected that he belonged to the Science Department.

I always pictured Bugenhagen as an engineer because he loves the smell of machinery, but it looks like, as you say, his exact role is never confirmed.

Relevant quotes:
Cait Sith on the Highwind said:
“This's just between you 'n' me but…”
“That there Bugenhagen feller, used
to be a pretty handy Shinra worker.”
“Yep, he ain't never bought
no weapons or Mako though……”

「ナイショやけども……」
「ブーゲンさんは昔っから神羅の
 お得意さんやったんです」
「あ、武器と魔晄は絶対に
 買いはらへんかったんですけどね」

On the Highwind said:
Bugenhagen
“Smells like machinery.”

Bugenhagen
“I love this smell.”
“Of course, I also love
the smell of nature, too……”

Bugenhagen
“Then I'll be on the deck
just passing the time.”
“I can feel the workings of the planet
in the smell of the wind.”
“I also feel the greatness of man's
wisdom and the knowledge
in the smell of machinery…”
“Well, bye for now.”

ブーゲンハーゲン
「機械のニオイじゃな」

ブーゲンハーゲン
「ワシはこのニオイが好きじゃ」
「もちろん自然のニオイも
 好きなんじゃが……」

ブーゲンハーゲン
「では、ワシは甲板で時を
 すごさせてもらおうか」
「風のニオイに星のいとなみを感じ
 機械のニオイに人間の知恵と知識の
 素晴らしさを感じる……」
「ホーホーホウ、じゃな」



This also explains why Gast not only considers him an acquaintance, but a friend or even a mentor of sorts.
Where is this thing about a friendship between Bugenhagen and Gast from? I realize that it makes sense given that Gast visited and gave machines to Cosmo Canyon
(at a point when Bugenhagen should have been in Cosmo Canyon, given the Gi Tribe event of 1959, where I always got the impression Bugenhagen was present for)
, but is there a strict confirmation of the relationship type between him and Bugenhagen?


Relevant quotes:
Elder Bugah
“You can't talk of the Ancients,
without mentioning Professor Gast.”
“He used to come here sometimes.”
“He was a Shinra scholar who spent
his life studying the Ancients.”
“He was a serious person, never would
have figured he'd be with the Shinra.”

...

“So, if you ever see Professor Gast,
I want you to tell him…”
“That the old man that likes to drink
in Cosmo Canyon, wanted to hear
about the Ancients.”
“Well, there's lots to talk about,”
“but most things about the Ancients
are all legend and folk tales,
and no one knows the truth.”

長老ブーガ
「古代種といえばガスト博士なのじゃ。
 時々ここにも来ておった」
{NEW PAGE}
「博士は古代種のナゾを追い続けた
 神羅の学者だったのじゃ。
 神羅っぽくない生真面目な人じゃ」

...

「それ以来、行方不明じゃ。
 神羅にももどらんかったそうじゃ」
{NEW PAGE}
「というわけでな
 ガスト博士に会うことがあったら
 伝えてほしいんじゃ」
{NEW PAGE}
「コスモキャニオンの酒好きジイさんが
 古代種の話を聞きたがっているとな」
{NEW PAGE}
「ま、話したいのはやまやまじゃが
 古代種のことは言い伝えや伝説ばかりで
 真実はもうだ~れにもわからんのじゃ」

{VINCENT}
“The machines in Cosmo Canyon
were presents of Dr. Gast.”
“Wrapped up in the planet's strange notions
surrounded by Shinra-made machines…”
“Science and the planet lived
side by side in that old man's heart.”

{VINCENT}
「コスモキャニオンの機械類は
 ほとんどがガスト博士のおくりもの」
「神羅製の機械にかこまれ
 星の不思議に想いをはせる……」
「あの老人の中では科学と星が
 ともに生きているのだ」
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
- It is repeatedly stated that the experiments of Project Jenova (S) took place at Shinra Manor, while it is suggested that Project Jenova G took place at the Gast Laboratory.

Can I ask where this was suggested?
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
@Minato Arisato. The Ultimanias have this information. It is clearly stated that the Jenova specimen was taken to the Gast Laboratory. It is also clearly stated that the work on the Jenova Project by Gast, Hojo and Lucrecia was conducted at Shinra Manor. There is no mention of other experiments except that they happened. It is open to interpretation.

@Shademp. That the two were acquainted is indisputable. The suggestion of friendship, as you guess, comes from Gast imparting both knowledge and technology to Bugenhagen. The mentor thing is due to their age and the probability that they were employed at the same time. That, however, is speculation.
 
@Shademp. That the two were acquainted is indisputable. The suggestion of friendship, as you guess, comes from Gast imparting both knowledge and technology to Bugenhagen.
I will go so far as to say that it is likely that Gast and Bugenhagen were acquainted to the level of friendship, but the quote by Vincent only says "The machines in Cosmo Canyon were presents of Dr. Gast." Bugenhagen is the one using the machines, certainly, but only the location is specified as receiving the gifts, not Bugenhagen personally.

All we have heard is that Gast liked Cosmo Canyon, not which particular individuals he liked more than the others or had a deeper connection with. One could say that Gast was friends with the location/community as a whole. Anything else, however likely, I will consider to be assumption and headcanon.

For this reason I will leave it up in the air whether Gast and Bugenhagen were friends, or if Gast just dropped by and said "Here are some machines I think this community would appreciate. Bye."

My interpretation of the words could change of course if a retranslation of Vincent's line reveals something that was lost in localization.


EDIT: One might say I'm a bit damaged from a habit of picking apart sentences and words and realizing just how full of uncertainty and assumption the world is. I partially blame Philosophy 101 for this.

I said that we had heard "Gast liked Cosmo Canyon", but technically we didn't hear this. Elder Bugah only said "He used to come here sometimes." which led to my assumption (which is still an assumption, however logical) that Gast had a fondness for Cosmo Canyon. At least in the light of Gast giving the canyon machines it becomes even more logical to think that he liked the location and its community.
 
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S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
Yeah, I guess. Most of this stuff is all speculation. Just in case anyone's interested, here is the entire English release dialogue from Elder Bugah on the matter:

Elder Bugah: You can't talk of the Ancients, >without mentioning Professor Gast.
He used to come here sometimes.
He was a Shinra scholar who spent >his life studying the Ancients.
He was a serious person, never would >have figured he'd be with the Shinra.
Must've been about 30 years ago, >when he found the corpse of an Ancient. >He was elated!
If I recall...he named it 'Jenova' and >was doing a lot of research...
One day, he showed up here, >looking real distressed.
He was mumbling something about Jenova >not being an Ancient and that he'd >done a terrible thing...
He's been missing since then. >I heard that he never >went back to Shinra
So, if you ever see Professor Gast, >I want you to tell him...
That the old man that likes to drink >in Cosmo Canyon, wanted to hear >about the Ancients.
Well, there's lots to talk about,
but most things about the Ancients >are all legend and folk tales, >and no one knows the truth.

This suggests to me that "showing up distressed" meant there was only a short time between Gast leaving Shinra and travelling to Cosmo Canyon. This would back up Shademp's idea that Gast had a fondness with the place.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Based on that I'd say Buganhagen didn't know Jenova was an alien either. Gast hadn't gotten that far yet until he headed North.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I think if they were to add something about Gast in the Compilation it would have to be a series of books.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^This is the only way for games to get away from game mechanics successfully. In books you don't have to deal with stats, the number of actors in cells, memory space etc.
 
It would have been so awesome if the unused books/reports in the Shinra Mansion had their entries filled and readable in the final game.

Information Concerning Materia/Hojo
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

The Life Within Materia
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

Legend of the Ancients, World Version
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

Next Quarter’s Projected Budget/Hojo
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

North Pole Daily Report/Hojo
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

/Hojo
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore


The Promised Land
☞  Read it
☞  Ignore

Then again the same could also be said for the books in Shinra HQ. So much illusion of depth!
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
And since Gast is a scientist who is a nonfighter this means that it will be focused on character interactions and events instead of action scenes.

This would be a perfect opportunity to shed some light more on Ifalna as well. I still wonder how she came to be the very last Cetra.
 
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Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
It would have been so awesome if the unused books/reports in the Shinra Mansion had their entries filled and readable in the final game.
This is going off the topic, but regarding this:

A common misconception is that Gast is his first name. However, Faremis is actually this biologist’s first name. Hojo is a last name and his professional title is “Professor Hojo”. Same is true for Gast who is referred to as “Professor Gast”.
A couple of points on this:

a) All the characters in FFVII use the Western naming order. Even in the few cases where they have a Japanese surname (as is the case with the Shinras) they use the Western order (ルーファウス神羅, rather than 神羅ルーファウス). Given how the rest of the characters are named, it would suggest that 'Gast Faremis' (ガスト・ファレミス) is his name.

b) As for being called 'Prof. Gast' if that is his first name, it seems that they just have a strange way about using names like this. For example, in Dirge of Cerberus you can see that they use 'Prof. Lucrecia' (ルクレツィア博士) despite DC giving her a surname. At 0:08 in this video:



It sounds odd in English, but apparently they just don't care in Japanese.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I also want some backstory on Hojo that still makes him unsympathetic as ever. Mostly in the form of how he was when Gast was in charge of the project. Plus I am curious if he was originally from Wutai or not.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I remember there was a great livejournal blog (remember those??) called "The 62nd Floor" that updated twice yearly with a new book from the Shinra library. Each entry was about 10,000 words minimum and incredibly academic and dry, and only every 500 words or so would a sentence tie everything back to plot/backstory relevance. It was quite masteful. One of the best fan works in this fandom. They stopped when Advent Children came out, for obvious reasons.

/side rant
 
@Strangelove

Thank you. I always wanted to remove that part of the commentary in my article, but for some reason felt indecisive. *proceeds to edit feature*
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
Concerning Gast’s Personality:

I think it’s fair to say that most people who have played FFVII hold Gast in a positive light. Which is understandable given that the largest section of on-screen time he has is his documented tapes with Ifalna where he is shown as an attentive researcher, lover and father, not to mention that Sephiroth speaks of him with high esteem. In addition, it is made perfectly clear that Gast sought redemption for his mistakes on the Jenova Project, citing unethical human experimentation as the reason for his resignation (Ultimania Omega).

However, there are a few things to consider. Firstly, recognising your mistakes does not absolve you of wrongdoing, particularly when the lives of others are involved to such a horrendous degree. Secondly, Sephiroth’s view of Gast is based on his childhood opinion which, I hope you agree, can become distorted over time (though after reading the files at Shinra Mansion, Sephiroth doesn’t seem betrayed by Gast’s actions so much as his lack of knowledge shared). Thirdly, the Ultimania states that Gast left Shinra “several years” after Project Jenova commenced. So, for those “several years”, child experimentation was acceptable? From the quotes attributed to Elder Bugah, Gast arrived at Cosmo Canyon mumbling that Jenova wasn’t an Ancient. This suggests to me that his reason for leaving Shinra wasn’t about the genetic experimentation on children, it was that said experimentation was with an alien life form. That, of course, is speculation.

Additionally, we never really see Gast in his Shinra role. For all we know, he was worse than Hojo before coming to his senses. One might look at the videos with Ifalna and think “aww, that’s nice, look how caring and sensitive he is being”. I realise this is an extreme example, but even Adolf Hitler had a lover. My point is that just because he shows an intimate side does not necessarily mean he is a good person. In my opinion, a few years of remorse and good work don’t quite wipe the slate clean of what essentially became a downright horrific career after the discovery of Jenova. Having said all that, based on what has been presented rather than digging deeper into head canon, I do like him and would like to know more. Especially given that he is responsible (indirectly or otherwise) for both Aerith and Sephiroth.
 
Yes, I've always felt that because he's Aerith's father, people assume he must be 'good'. This has given him a free pass that he may not really deserve, given that he was the head of the science department throughout the period when the human experimentation projects were initiated. For all we know, he may (at first) have hooked up with Ifalna in a calculating way, because he'd realised it was the easiest and most natural way for him to create the half-human, half-Cetra being he'd been working for all his life....
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
For all we know, he may (at first) have hooked up with Ifalna in a calculating way, because he'd realised it was the easiest and most natural way for him to create the half-human, half-Cetra being he'd been working for all his life....

This
 
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