The Early Days of the Science Department

[Clement Rage]

Yes, I've always felt that because he's Aerith's father, people assume he must be 'good'. This has given him a free pass that he may not really deserve, given that he was the head of the science department throughout the period when the human experimentation projects were initiated. For all we know, he may (at first) have hooked up with Ifalna in a calculating way, because he'd realised it was the easiest and most natural way for him to create the half-human, half-Cetra being he'd been working for all his life....

I actually hadn't considered that, although I did think it counted against him that his change of heart only happened once he himself had a daughter due to be experimented on.

 

[Roger]

I personally imagine he was a decent enough guy by the time he met Elmyra. You don't hang out with Buganhagen without being clued into the plight of the Planet. But his initial leaving did appear to be because he realised that he screwed up identifying Jenova as an Ancient and didn't want to wait and see how Pres Shinra would take that news rather then because of guilt over what was being done to Sephiroth and what happened to Lucretia.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Concerning Gast’s Personality:

I think it’s fair to say that most people who have played FFVII hold Gast in a positive light. Which is understandable given that the largest section of on-screen time he has is his documented tapes with Ifalna where he is shown as an attentive researcher, lover and father, not to mention that Sephiroth speaks of him with high esteem. In addition, it is made perfectly clear that Gast sought redemption for his mistakes on the Jenova Project, citing unethical human experimentation as the reason for his resignation (Ultimania Omega).

However, there are a few things to consider. Firstly, recognising your mistakes does not absolve you of wrongdoing, particularly when the lives of others are involved to such a horrendous degree. Secondly, Sephiroth’s view of Gast is based on his childhood opinion which, I hope you agree, can become distorted over time (though after reading the files at Shinra Mansion, Sephiroth doesn’t seem betrayed by Gast’s actions so much as his lack of knowledge shared). Thirdly, the Ultimania states that Gast left Shinra “several years” after Project Jenova commenced. So, for those “several years”, child experimentation was acceptable? From the quotes attributed to Elder Bugah, Gast arrived at Cosmo Canyon mumbling that Jenova wasn’t an Ancient. This suggests to me that his reason for leaving Shinra wasn’t about the genetic experimentation on children, it was that said experimentation was with an alien life form. That, of course, is speculation.

Additionally, we never really see Gast in his Shinra role. For all we know, he was worse than Hojo before coming to his senses. One might look at the videos with Ifalna and think “aww, that’s nice, look how caring and sensitive he is being”. I realise this is an extreme example, but even Adolf Hitler had a lover. My point is that just because he shows an intimate side does not necessarily mean he is a good person. In my opinion, a few years of remorse and good work don’t quite wipe the slate clean of what essentially became a downright horrific career after the discovery of Jenova. Having said all that, based on what has been presented rather than digging deeper into head canon, I do like him and would like to know more. Especially given that he is responsible (indirectly or otherwise) for both Aerith and Sephiroth.

And right there we have a description of an infinitely more interesting character than Hollander and Grimoire put together.

So, naturally, he was completely ignored in the Compilation.

 

[jazzflower92]

Admittly Gast is good fanfic fodder because canonly the writers at Square have done absolutely nothing with him in the spinoffs. It seems to be popular with them to create uneeded new characters who have weak/annoying personalities, stupid designs, and redundant purposes.

Nex to Elmyra and Ifalna, Gast is one of the most ignored characters in the series. Its weird that Square avoids talking about anything to do with Sephiroth's childhood or even his time in the Wutai War. I know a lot of people were crossed when they learned that Crisis Core was not going to be about the Wutai War.

It also brings to mind what kind of things did they do to Sephiroth as a child and how much did Gast approve of them.

 

[Shademp]

Vincent only met Gast while the latter was still in the Jenova Project, yet he speaks of Gast as an idealist.

As quoted earlier:

“Wrapped up in the planet's strange notions
surrounded by Shinra-made machines…”
“Science and the planet lived
side by side in that old man's heart.”

It looks then like Gast was blinded by good intentions. Going off of Gast's image as a person who believes in balance between science and the planet, which translates to a belief in balance between humanity and the planet, Gast must have been blinded by the "good intention" of creating a pure Cetra that could lead everyone to the Promised Land.

Whether it was common knowledge in the scientific community at the time of the Jenova Project that depleting mako hurts the planet, I do not know. But even if it was well-known, I think Gast's dream would have been that a future with a new generation of Cetra might cultivate the planet enough to even compensate for the use of mako reactors.

Just jumping on the speculation wagon and confirming that, indeed, Gast is good fanfic fodder and an interesting character to think about.

 

[jazzflower92]

Vincent only met Gast while the latter was still in the Jenova Project, yet he speaks of Gast as an idealist.

As quoted earlier:


It looks then like Gast was blinded by good intentions. Going off of Gast's image as a person who believes in balance between science and the planet, which translates to a belief in balance between humanity and the planet, Gast must have been blinded by the "good intention" of creating a pure Cetra that could lead everyone to the Promised Land.

Whether it was common knowledge in the scientific community at the time of the Jenova Project that depleting mako hurts the planet, I do not know. But even if it was well-known, I think Gast's dream would have been that a future with a new generation of Cetra might cultivate the planet enough to even compensate for the use of mako reactors.

Just jumping on the speculation wagon and confirming that, indeed, Gast is good fanfic fodder and an interesting character to think about.

Yeah, I still think Gast was well intentioned but at the same time even those with good intent can sometimes comprimise their morality when they think it will be for the greater good. Gast agreeing to a lot of Shinra's ethics he had made a Faustian deal and opened up Pandora's box.

 

[Torrie]

It is also the case that Mako energy was in use for at least a decade while Grimoire was at Shinra. As a scientist studying the effects of Mako and familiar with the Chronicles of Yore, he MUST have realised that Mako production was harmful to the Planet.

Can anyone elaborate on the Chronicles of Yore, please? It's the first time I've ever heard of them, but watching through all the DoC cutscenes seems like an unimaginable task for me at the moment.

Also, I'd like to ask if there are any other scenes with Grimoire Valentine in the game apart from the one where he and Lucrecia explore the cave, then the test tube EXPLODES (like everything in FF7 ), and he dies?

 

[Shademp]

Can anyone elaborate on the Chronicles of Yore, please? It's the first time I've ever heard of them

"Chronicles of Yore" in this context refers to the Cetran story about how Omega and Chaos will gather up all the lifestream at the end of the planet's life, then leave the dead rock behind and travel through interstellar space in an unspecified direction.

Soul wrought of terra corrupt,​

Quelling impurity,​

Purging the stream,​

To beckon forth an ultimate fate,​

Behold mighty Chaos,​

Omega’s squire to the lofty heavens.​

The lore never properly specifies where this lifestream is supposed to end up other than essentially really, really far away.

It is up for debate whether the term "Chronicles of Yore" should be considered the proper title for the "Omega & Chaos" story. The precise term "Chronicles of Yore" is only used in the one scene with Lucrecia, Chapter 5 of the game.

The term used in the Japanese game is different and, same as with the English equivalent, doesn't seem to pop up anywhere else.

Lucrecia: The Chronicles of Yore.​

ルクレツィア：終末の物語……​

The Japanese equivalent here would literally translate as "Tale/Story/Legend of the End/Conclusion/Termination" if I'm using this dictionary correctly.
Auto-translations give the same vibe:

The story of the end​

The Story of the Apocalypse​

A Tale of the End​

A Tale of the Apocalypse​

So the original JP text emphasizes that it is a story about The End, rather than the fact that it is a story from ancient times.


Admittedly I do not have the entirety of the Japanese Dirge of Cerberus script in front of me (and my google-fu did not yield one, though once upon a time I did have a link to a Japanese website with the full game script) so I can't say with 100% certainty that the term "終末の物語" doesn't pop up outside of this one scene in Chapter 5.

Also, I'd like to ask if there are any other scenes with Grimoire Valentine in the game apart from the one where he and Lucrecia explore the cave, then the test tube EXPLODES (like everything in FF7 ), and he dies?

There are unfortunately no other scenes with an actual living Grimoire Valentine. The first four Omega Reports are from Grimoire's point-of-view. See entries Discovery!, No New Findings, Alternate Theories & The Terrasystem. The latter four Omega Reports are from Lucrecia's POV.

Grimoire is mentioned a few times after his death.
- Ch11: Vincent recalls the moment he learned that Lucrecia worked with his father. Lucrecia opens up to Vincent about how she takes full blame for the death of his father.
- Ch12: Lucrecia mentions that Vincent's eyes are exactly like his father's.
- Scene 6 online mode story: Grimoire's research into stagnant lifestream is revealed as the inspiration for some of Deepground's experiments. Grimoire's death predates Deepground so he had no part in these experiments.

 

[Torrie]

@Shademp thanks soooo much for your invaluable help! I had no doubts you would provide the most detailed reply as can be thanks to your profound knowledge of this game. The reason I needed to know that is that I'm still working on quite a lengthy piece of fanfiction and I can't help inserting some lore-related details even if they're not going to be obvious for the readers.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I would definetly look up all the different kinds of people required to do archeology. We know they had access to Cetran writings and, more significantly, some way of *translating* those writings. And a way of finding Cetran sites in general.

That kind of team would be multi-disciplinarian with people from... a lot of different fields in it. Geology and anthropology for sure. Since this is FFVII, someone with Planetology would be needed (Lucrecia and Grimoire's specialty!). There simply has to be more people than just the main scientists we see working on all this stuff.

If you can, I would get a hold of the CC script. That's a *really* good source for what kind of stuff various people in the science department know about various topics. And what people *outside* the Science Department know about the Science Department!

We see stuff like the Materia Researchers knowing about the Black and White Materia (and what their general purpose was)! People knowing that Gast, Hojo and Hollander were the head of Ancient Studies (and that Gillian worked with them!). That people know there was a miscategorization of an Ancient. That Hojo even did some really messed up stuff to Iflana. That Gillian was working on a project to *duplicate* SOLDIERs (and that she was hot when she was younger).

Just... a lot of "office chatter". And the notion that gossip gets around the Shinra building even when people don't necessarily want it too.