The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Cat Rage Room]

This is the place to discuss the LTD of Final Fantasy VII. Feel free to start the topic off however you wish, as long as its on topic. Some guidelines, c/p from the previous topic.

-The LTD debate/discussion is still an active and valid part of the fandom, so it'll always be welcome here. I just want to say that the LTD thread in itself is not in any sort of danger. However...

-The LTD thread has sort of turned into a glorified chit chat thread. This is not what it's for. It's for discussion of the LTD, no more, no less. No porn, no image macroing, no fanart, no bullshit chatter, etc etc. Before you start whining, many other parts of the forum are already for these purposes as it is, so take it there. Concentrating 3-4 facets of discussion into one topic instead of taking them to their respective channels is a bit counterproductive and disorganized to the overall community, even if you guys are having fun with it.

-No spam. The topic doesn't have to be deadly serious, but everyone here has sort of a habit of spewing word vomit as posts instead of actually sitting down in your head and seeing what you're about to type is worth a damn. The Chit Chat thread is the place to do this, not the LTD thread.

-And of course keeping the LTD thread about the LTD is only fair to the people who actually want to discuss it.

Have fun!

 

[crack]

Aerith having feelings for someone other than Zack doesn't make Cloud and Tifa any less canon. I don't know why people are so against the idea.

Edit: And I can't promise anything if someone triggers me to post a gif or macro.

 

[Eerie]

I think that it's not because of CloTi that people argue this - and heck, we're not even debating Aerith's love because she did love him - but because she had very complex feelings towards Cloud, and because Cloud himself wasn't really himself.

Because of this, people often wonder "is this "true love", infatuation, misunderstanding...?" And why do SE point towards Zerith at the end of ACC, if her real love was Cloud? What to make out of these hints they give? Did she love both men equally?

It's not so much the fact that she loved Cloud, but yeah, those complex feelings that are looked.

The fact that Aerith loves Cloud doesn't stop CloTi anyway - even with FFVII, we knew both girls loved Cloud, yet only CloTi was canon in the end. As someone who doesn't ship her, but read a lot of arguments here, I think it's more the Zerith side that is left very bugged by this.

My personal stance tends to change over time, as I try to decipher her feelings, but in the end, is it really worth it? I mean she's dead ~___~ And there's nothing fluffy after death in FFVII ~___~ You get to transform into goo soooo _o/

 

[Cat Rage Room]

*effort to get things going and jumpstart the topic*

Can anyone explain who Aerith had feelings for? Is it canon that she liked Cloud as more than a friend at any point?

Edit: And I can't promise anything if someone triggers me to post a gif or macro.

please don't. It's a hard habit to break, but once you do, you discover the wonderful world of interesting discussion without the compulsion to post an overused run down to the ground image or macro that everyone has seen a thousand times as a thinly veiled way of hiding the fact that said poster is in incapable of interesting discussion without it.

 

[crack]

I think that it's not because of CloTi that people argue this - and heck, we're not even debating Aerith's love because she did love him - but because she had very complex feelings towards Cloud, and because Cloud himself wasn't really himself.

I don't think Cloud wasn't completely himself during their time together, in all honesty. I mean, there were times when Cloud didn't act like a complete dick.

The fact that Aerith loves Cloud doesn't stop CloTi anyway - even with FFVII, we knew both girls loved Cloud, yet only CloTi was canon in the end. As someone who doesn't ship her, but read a lot of arguments here, I think it's more the Zerith side that is left very bugged by this.

Agreed. Even if Cloud himself had feelings for Aerith, it really doesn't change the fact that Cloud and Tifa are still together in the end.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Where's the poll?

 

[null]

Doesn't need one, tbh. It's always the same results.

 

[Ⓐaron]

while true, it's still fun to see how few people think Cloud loves the dead flower girl

 

[Ryushikaze]

Aerith had feelings for Zack. And for the Cloud she met- a Cloud who was at least in large part made up of Zack.

Cloud himself, I do not think, felt any super serious feelings towards Aerith, and the onus of anyone who thinks he did is on them to demonstrate it.

 

[null]

I don't have a problem when people think Cloud loves Aerith, nothing wrong with wanting to read into some of Cloud's reactions toward her. I just think it's incredibly hypocritical and unrealistic to think he prefers Aerith over Tifa, or to portray Tifa as a third wheel.

 

[Joker]

Because of this, people often wonder "is this "true love", infatuation, misunderstanding...?" And why do SE point towards Zerith at the end of ACC, if her real love was Cloud? What to make out of these hints they give? Did she love both men equally?

It's better this way, though, isn't it? It's almost always better to be able to fill in the gaps with your imagination, rather than having it spelled out for you. It leaves it up to the reader/player/audience to decide and interpret for themselves (ultimately creating conversation, keeping the game/book/whatever en vogue, and also creating mor sales ).

See also: HP7, any other book/game that would have been better without the epilogue, etc

 

[Zee]

Winter needs to get back here so I'm not the only Cleris.

I really don't know what else to say except that Cloud/Aeris did have a legit basis during FF7. Quite frankly I don't consider Cloti to really be official until AC, simply because I believe while CoT presented the beginnings of their relationship, Cloud's fear drove him away before they could establish anything. But really, Aeris isn't pursuing/spiritsexing/wrapping in the arms of her one tru wuv, be it Zack or Cloud. She's dead. Her "happy ending" was knowing her friends were okay. Now she'll watch over them until the lifestream decides to reincarnate her as a tree or something.

 

[Max Caulfield]

I haven't been following TLD recently on here so I have no idea what's been devised and settled upon or if this has been said already... but, is it really so unreasonable or outlandish to think that Aerith loves both Zack and Cloud, but in different ways?

 

[Vendel]

I really don't know what else to say except that Cloud/Aeris did have a legit basis during FF7.

Really now? Was it Aerith bringing up her Ex left and right? Or was it Cloud's mental breakdowns? Maybe it was when she died and Cloud was hooking up with the "other" girl by the end of the game?

Quite frankly I don't consider Cloti to really be official until AC,

The other girl being dead and Cloud shacked up with Tifa wasn't a clue?

simply because I believe while CoT presented the beginnings of their relationship, Cloud's fear drove him away before they could establish anything.

A home, work, and family? Yeah Cloud didn't establish anything.

 

[Zee]

AND HERE WE GO

No, Cloud didn't really establish their relationship. They were coming together, but even Tifa herself didn't know how to define them -- they had a complete communication breakdown in CoT. He was unable to clearly express himself towards her, so she felt like he felt because he didn't care about her or the family, when that wasn't the case. It's only when they resolve things in AC that they really come together.

Really, it's a pretty common thing in a story for the couple to have to overcome some obstacle before they get together. I think it was kind of a cop out to put Cloud in a depressed state again (and just because the fans didn't remember any other aspects of his personality, no less) but hey, there it is.

Really now? Was it Aerith bringing up her Ex left and right? Or was it Cloud's mental breakdowns? Maybe it was when she died and Cloud was hooking up with the "other" girl by the end of the game?

It was perfectly natural for Aeris to question Zack about Cloud. I don't think that anyone here would argue against that, at least initially, she was intrigued by how similar they were. However she makes it perfectly clear that she has feelings for Cloud himself, and not the Zack in him. As for Cloud, his mental breakdowns really have nothing to do with it. He still considers Aeris one of the most important people to him, right up there with Zack and his family, so that says a lot.

As for the whole "Aeris is dead thing" I think I already addressed that, and constantly pointing it out in an argument is QUITE LITERALLY beating a dead horse.

 

[Splintered]

The only real issue I have is people who say that Aerith doesn't "really" romantically love Cloud in any way that truly mattered. I disagree pretty strongly against that, especially since her feelings are established in FFVII, CoL, and in some profiles.

No one is saying that it isn't complicated. Of course it is, everything is complicated when it comes to Cloud. But it doesn't make it any less legitimate. Especially when it comes to a videogame/Final Fantasy series where romances are more unrealistic than what commonly is.

I'm not saying that they started some amazing romance when she was alive, or that she fully understood Cloud, or that she didn't love Zack (as I am a huge Zack/Aerith shipper) but that she had developed honest feelings for Cloud during her trip.

 

[Vendel]

No, Cloud didn't really establish their relationship. They were coming together, but even Tifa herself didn't know how to define them

What do you mean Tifa didn't know how to define them?

they had a complete communication breakdown in CoT.

Which is why Tifa gets worried.

He was unable to clearly express himself towards her,

Really now? Not under the Highwind nor when Cloud tells Tifa that he has her now in a way that is different from before?

None of that is clear?

so she felt like he felt because he didn't care about her or the family, when that wasn't the case.

When did Tifa think Cloud didn't care about her or the family?

It's only when they resolve things in AC that they really come together.

Except you know under the Highwind at right after the game ends.

Cloud returns to his already established family unit after AC. It's the conclusion to the "trouble close to home" storyline.

Really, it's a pretty common thing in a story for the couple to have to overcome some obstacle before they get together. I think it was kind of a cop out to put Cloud in a depressed state again (and just because the fans didn't remember any other aspects of his personality, no less) but hey, there it is.

Except AC was Cloud overcoming his feelings of inadequacy because he didn't feel like he deserved HIS FAMILY. Hence THEY GOT TOGETHER ALREADY.

It was perfectly natural for Aeris to question Zack about Cloud. I don't think that anyone here would argue against that, at least initially, she was intrigued by how similar they were.

Which is why she kept bringing him up......

However she makes it perfectly clear that she has feelings for Cloud himself, and not the Zack in him.

Well I would hope after two weeks of cross country adventure time she would figure out that Cloud wasn't Zack 2.0.

And the feeling that Aerith seems to project most is worry for Cloud. Once she stops chasing Zack's shadow.

As for Cloud, his mental breakdowns really have nothing to do with it.

Yea being a headcase doesn't stop true love right?

He still considers Aeris one of the most important people to him, right up there with Zack and his family, so that says a lot.

What does it say exactly?

As for the whole "Aeris is dead thing" I think I already addressed that, and constantly pointing it out in an argument is QUITE LITERALLY beating a dead horse.

Well her critical life failure would seem to put a damper on the whole "have a basis" argument.

 

[Ryushikaze]

AND HERE WE GO

No, Cloud didn't really establish their relationship. They were coming together, but even Tifa herself didn't know how to define them -- they had a complete communication breakdown in CoT. He was unable to clearly express himself towards her, so she felt like he felt because he didn't care about her or the family, when that wasn't the case. It's only when they resolve things in AC that they really come together.

But you do agree they were in a relationship, yes? Then that's a major step taken, even though Cloud was so fucking worried about ruining what he had, what made him happy that he became too afraid to enjoy his family and his happiness, and that means they had established something, even if that

Really, it's a pretty common thing in a story for the couple to have to overcome some obstacle before they get together. I think it was kind of a cop out to put Cloud in a depressed state again (and just because the fans didn't remember any other aspects of his personality, no less) but hey, there it is.

So... why doesn't FF7 count as 'the obstacle' before the relationship, and COT/AC/C as the 'working through issues in their relationship' like Nojima described as being part the premise of CoT?

It was perfectly natural for Aeris to question Zack about Cloud. I don't think that anyone here would argue against that, at least initially, she was intrigued by how similar they were. However she makes it perfectly clear that she has feelings for Cloud himself, and not the Zack in him.

No she doesn't. She says on their date she realizes she's been focusing on the Zack in Cloud and wants to get to know Cloud. She doesn't KNOW enough of Cloud to have feelings for the real him at this point. She still has feelings for Chocobutt, but not because of 'Cloud himself' since it was only the day before she died that she realized the emotional trap she was falling into.

As for Cloud, his mental breakdowns really have nothing to do with it. He still considers Aeris one of the most important people to him, right up there with Zack and his family, so that says a lot.

Yeah, it means she had a massive impact on him, like she did on Tifa, on Barrett, on Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait/Reeve, Red, and even Marlene.
Aerith was important to EVERYONE in the party, not just Cloud.

As for the whole "Aeris is dead thing" I think I already addressed that, and constantly pointing it out in an argument is QUITE LITERALLY beating a dead horse.

Yet it's worth pointing out that there really is no more concrete way to end an active love triangle than killing part of it, and such was traditionally the way you ended them in Japanese literature until the modern era.

Aerith can be attracted to and fall in love with what she thought was Cloud even before getting to know the real him. She's the woman falling in love with the metaphorical amnesiac. The love's no less real, but the man isn't really himself.

 

[Zee]

You know, before I actually respond, must you quote every sentence? I know quoting is sometimes necessary, but going through every single line and quoting it to only respond with one sentence suggests you can't type a coherent paragraph.

Anyway.

Her being dead not does not, in fact, put a damper on them having a basis. They have disk one, where they are both alive and interacting with each other, that is the basis. I'm not arguing that their relationship continued post-death, and I think I already made that clear. Moving on --

Tifa doesn't seem to really know what they are during CoT and says as much. I'm not really debating Cloud's affections for her, you realize, this is just a part of their communication breakdown. Cloud becomes withdrawn from her, and never really gives her a direct answer about their relationship. She begins to have doubts about the nature of their relationship because Cloud never really gives her an answer. Her asking "Do you love me?" was a reflection of that. Feeling it is one thing, actually saying it is another, and Tifa had every right to be confused about the mixed signals Cloud was giving her. One day he's saying they'll be together, the next he's not listening to what she's saying.

As for this statement:

Except AC was Cloud overcoming his feelings of inadequacy because he didn't feel like he deserved HIS FAMILY. Hence THEY GOT TOGETHER ALREADY.

Tifa in AC isn't even sure Cloud considers her family, much less a lover. Again, I'm not debating that he felt this way, but rather what he communicated to her. And because he failed in the department, she was left feeling like they weren't really a family -- it's only after AC that they clearly establish they are.

Also I would say them being family and them being romantically involved overlaps but really isn't the same thing. Establishing a romantic relationship is different.

I would agree they had cleared things up with each other under the Highwind if it wasn't for CoT/AC. I think it was a lame thing to do to the characters because it makes them look like they went two steps back, but again, there it is.

EDIT: This post was for Ven, I'll type up a response for you in a sec, Ryu.

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't know why people are so against the idea.

Because some of us are rabid Zeriths, you dumb bitch.

Edit: Also, misleading title. I thought this was an LTD about members of the site. xD

 

[Vendel]

You know,

Yes?

before I actually respond, must you quote every sentence?

Yes and no.

I know quoting is sometimes necessary,

Thank you.

but going through every single line and quoting it to only respond with one sentence

I object. I uses two or even 3 sometimes.

suggests you

I?

can't

What?

type a coherent paragraph.

Then just add them all up and pretend they are a paragraph.

 

[Zee]

For Ryu:

I believe they were starting a relationship, yes. CoT to me seemed very much a test of the waters for the two of them; they wanted to be in a relationship, but weren't quite sure what it meant for them. I don't count FF7 as their obstacle because FF7 wasn't really about them. It wasn't a love story. While it was a sub plot, a big one, it was hardly the focus of the game and it was really about Cloud understanding and accepting himself and, of course, stopping a mutated crazy bastard from killing them all. CoT/AC, however, is a far more personal story about Cloud and his relationships.

As for the Cloud vs. Zack thing: I'm not saying she knew Cloud in and out, but she did see the real Cloud through Zack. At first she was startled at the difference between them, but sees that it's Cloud she wants. She even goes so far as to say they are two different people that just happen to look alike. She cannot make this statement, compare the two of them, or make a choice without at least seeing a bit of the real Cloud first. But that's exactly what she's doing.

Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up that Aeris was important to everyone. I know this. However she does not have the same relationship with all of those people that she does with Cloud -- their relationship is significant in a completely different way. Besides, if Sephiroth is asking Cloud what is "most important" and the three things he sees are his best friend, his family, and then Aeris, that means she's special to him, be it in friendship or romance. Either way, he's seeing people he loves, not just people he kinda likes.

However if you're seriously going to try and argue with me that if you asked Barret or Vincent or Cid the top three most important people to them Aeris would pop into their heads, then I just give up, because I can't argue against such ridiculousness.

 

[Shadowfox]

Quite frankly I don't consider Cloti to really be official until AC, simply because I believe while CoT presented the beginnings of their relationship, Cloud's fear drove him away before they could establish anything.

Personally I think that a man and a woman who've slept together, are living together and raising kids can safely be considered as having established an official relationship together. So C/T's romantic relationship, pre- and during AC, though somewhat unsure, a little dysfunctional, flawed and at times fragile, was still official.

 

[Celes Chere]

^Lol, I thought your avatar was a cactus at first.

Man, I guess I'm the only one that thought Cloud and Tifa's relationship started in FFVII, xD. I mean, after the Lifestream Scene and Highwind Scene, it seems kind of obvious to me.

 

[Vendel]

Man, I guess I'm the only one that thought Cloud and Tifa's relationship started in FFVII, xD.

No, you are not the only one. And good news! You have official word of god to back you up on that.