The Genesis Sequel

[Makoeyes987]

That's called rehash and completely ignoring the previous resolution and strides they made in the previous narrative.

If all they're going to do is just repeat it, then there's no point. That's not a good story. That's not a story that's personal.

That's just the same story in a different package. What was the point of FFVII, and AC if nothing changed? It's absurd.

And Genesis and Sephiroth already crossed swords. The point of Genesis wasn't to be the person to beat Sephiroth. That's Cloud's domain. Genesis already became a hero thanks to Zack. The whole dichotomy between Sephiroth and Genesis was to show that despite their similarities one found salvation and the other became a terror. Genesis has gone away from Sephiroth and went on an entirely different path.

 

[NoenGaruth]

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg16778#msg16778 date=1234308960]
watch and see, there is no other way they can cap off the compilation. they know this. i promise you sephy/jenova WILL be back in the next installment. maybe in a different form. maybe with a different face. but in the end, if they really believed the central conflict was resolved, they wouldn't be building momentum towards an ending like they have been.
[/quote]

While I was too kinda hoping for Jenova to appear again in the compilation, in the other thread discussing Jenova we've pretty much come to an agreement she's gone.

Sephiroth defeated Jenova's Will and in AC Cloud defeated Sephiroth's, without those they are nothing.

Tho I think would be fun to see some side mission where the Cells gather because of someone/something, and you have to fight some kind of drone/Homunculus Jenova and Sephiroth (I'm thinking like the Lezard/Silmeria ones you fight in Valkyrie Profile 2 which were mindless creatures that attack you and had some powers of the originals).

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The selling point then obviously has to be a conflict that is developed from the original game.

I agree, but I believe what they should face is some unforeseen consequence that was a result of the events of FF7, not a resurrection of the same villains and issues that were already defeated because That's How You Make A Sequel.

 

[strode78]

let me lay this out in logical argument format. objective analysis beyond all of our "wants" for what will happen in the sequel.

contention: sephiroth will return in some form

point 1 - It is in squenix's financial best interests to bring back sephiroth for one final, decisive showdown. As we all know Sephiroth is among the most enduring and iconic videogame characters of all time, and for many a final chapter of the saga would be incomplete without him, as he largely defined the success of the original game.

point 2 - There is absolutely enough wiggle room in the plot to bring him back.

-Do you really think it's beyond square to suggest suggest that sephiroth isn't dead?

-They've brought him back once already, twice if you count the events of ff vii. Though this may make it seem like a rehash, it proves that death is a relative and possibly temporary state especially in the case of sephiroth (being the strongest will in gaia).

-There are still Jenova cells in the world (as proved in DOC). They are not dead and are still an impure force in the lifestream. As we all know Jenova cells will try to reassemble.

-the ultimania guide actually refers to the presence of these cells in DOC as "geostigma" implying that jenova's legacy lives on even though cloud and the children are cured (this IS post advent children).

-AC gives virtually no evidence that sephiroth's consciousness has passed into the lifestream.

again the point of all of these examples are just to show that there IS wiggle room for square.

point 3 - There is a narrative necessity in Genesis' story to come to conflict with Sephiroth.


1- genesis is immediately, in DOC, presented in relation to sephiroth in the G reports. When he showed up the most striking part of him was the 1 white wing on his right shoulder (clearly meant to evoke the image of being an opposite of sephiroth)

2- genesis in CC sets himself in opposition to sephiroth ("the world needs a new hero" etc.) without that being the central conflict, though after DOC we were all waiting to see how their relationship began.

3- at the end of CC Genesis vows to protect to planet, whereas sephiroth vows to destroy it. This is a clear setting up of a conflict of ideologies that is not resolved in the games as they stand.

4- there is simply no character that genesis has as much of a historical and compelling conflict with, which if there is going to be a game about him, is necessary. It may even be reasonable to suggest that square introduced Genesis simply to justify bringing sephiroth back.

Now, of course we'll all have to wait for the game to find out. However, i think if you look all of this over, it is clear that it is possible, or even likely that sephiroth will return in some form in the next and final game. Put aside what you want to happen and look at these points objectively.

 

[Alex]

However, i think if you look all of this over, it is clear that it is possible, or even likely that sephiroth will return in some form in the next and final game.

I think its likely too.

As a flashback.

Despite my catastrophic lack of faith in SE I hope and pray they won't stoop so low as to rehash the same tired old plot device and narrative from the previous Compilation titles. Even if it makes the fanboys upset

 

[strode78]

dude, they're a major company. they're financial interests, and the fanboys are whats at heart. is it not hugely obvious to you that they're just gonna look for a way to reinvent and revitalize the plot that's worked so well up till now? especially after the financial failure of DOC? (being the only one without sephiroth)

 

[Max Payne]

SE isn't going to bring him back. There are no plausible outlets for him to return.

They're not stupid, or lazy enough to do so.

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=NoenGaruth link=topic=488.msg16841#msg16841 date=1234315985]Sephiroth defeated Jenova's Will and in AC Cloud defeated Sephiroth's, without those they are nothing.[/quote]

I don't know...

Now that I think of it, in the original game (though I cannot speak for the actual Japanese language version(s), Jenova did speak up after the battle with Jenova-LIFE after Aerith was killed.

This makes me question if she's truly all that 'gone' from the story. *shrugs* If it was Sephiroth's will, I just wonder if we would have been told it was Sephiroth saying those words...?

... Yes, I just thought of this.

 

[Alex]

[quote author=strode78 link=topic=488.msg16862#msg16862 date=1234318350]
dude, they're a major company. they're financial interests, and the fanboys are whats at heart. is it not hugely obvious to you that they're just gonna look for a way to reinvent and revitalize the plot that's worked so well up till now? especially after the financial failure of DOC? (being the only one without sephiroth)
[/quote]
Dude, the reason DOC was a financial failure was because it was shit, with or without Sephiroth.

 

[strode78]

You're right, the game was shit, making square return to the roots of the series in CC. You can bet that they will continue on this course. everybody's already terrified that the compilation will be oversaturated with new characters (one of the complaints with DOC). I believe that square will make the enemy an old, established one. Who else make sense from a literary perspective? If you can posit another character who makes sense for genesis to take on, i'd love to hear it, because i don't really want them to bring him back either, but i think that there is no other option.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, because they so can't write a story without Sephiroth. That's such lazy, and limited thinking that they would never even be able to have even made a story if they thought like that. What is so hard to get? Are you ignoring the fact that by bringing Sephiroth for "one last round "has already been done, so it wouldn't make any sense?

They can craft a story without having to retell the same one again. Why bring Sephiroth back? So he can lose?

And DC wasn't shit or a financial failure. And if you think it is, bring in some figures please. It didn't sell as much as CC but it wasn't a commercial failure. They have no reason to fear working with Genesis or any of the other new characters they've made. They've already hinted and said they want to work more with Shelke, Shalua, and the others. So no, they have no reason to go backwards and make the same game.

 

[Max Payne]

DoC was pretty shit Mako.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah uh, DC was shit, man.

 

[Nocturne]

I completely disagree that DoC was horrible. I think it gets way too much flak. The story was good. Graphics were good for the PS2. The controls and battle system were by no means perfect, but they werent NEARLY as bad as people say. Ive played much worse games that have gotten better scores.

And it was by no means a failure. It sold well over a million copies.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuck you, FF Mystic Quest was shit. There was some saving grace in DC.

I guess my definition of electronic fecal matter differs from yours but that's neither here nor there. I'm talking about his ridiculous logic of saying why Sephiroth has to come back.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I completely disagree that DoC was horrible. I think it gets way too much flak. The story was good. Graphics were good for the PS2. The controls and battle system were by no means perfect, but they werent NEARLY as bad as people say. Ive played much worse games that have gotten better scores.

No, it was pretty bad. It wasn't the absolute worst game of it's genre I've ever played, but it's close. I really can't name too many games that are worse than DoC. And I am absolutely convinced that if it had nothing to do with SE or FF it wouldn't have sold nearly as much.

 

[strode78]

you know what? you're right, it is limited thinking. it is lazy. it is even silly. they certainly could tell a much better story. but does that mean they will?

again set aside what you want, look at it objectively, and attack the premises if you want the argument to crumble. just saying "it would be dumb" is not an argument. i'm talking about what will happen not what would be a "good" idea or a "bad" idea, and of all other theories i'm entirely sure that what i've posited has the most logical support.

 

[NoenGaruth]

[quote author=Arianna link=topic=488.msg16869#msg16869 date=1234318759]
[quote author=NoenGaruth link=topic=488.msg16841#msg16841 date=1234315985]Sephiroth defeated Jenova's Will and in AC Cloud defeated Sephiroth's, without those they are nothing.[/quote]

I don't know...

Now that I think of it, in the original game (though I cannot speak for the actual Japanese language version(s), Jenova did speak up after the battle with Jenova-LIFE after Aerith was killed.

This makes me question if she's truly all that 'gone' from the story. *shrugs* If it was Sephiroth's will, I just wonder if we would have been told it was Sephiroth saying those words...?

... Yes, I just thought of this.
[/quote]

I beleive this has also been discussed before. I think the general idea was that it's just sephiroth's words coming out of Jenova's mouth [or whatever she had at that stage ]

And as much as I don't like to say it, all signs point to Jenova's consciousness being gone by FF7, basicaly from what I gather it went down something like this:

-Jenova is incapacited in some way by the cetra ad she can't do anything when found by Sephiroth at Nibelheim.
-Sephiroth goes nuts, cuts her head off, gets thrown into the lifestream.
-This removes whatever was supressing Jenova and she can function again.
-Jenova then attempts to take control of Sephiroth as any all powerful planet destoryer would have an ego so big they would never stand for being second to another.
-Sephiroth begs to differ and kick her ass.
-Jenova has lost control of the cells, can no longer do anything and probably either left to dwell in the lifestream forever or eventualy dissapated by it. (Tho personaly I think it be more fitting if she was just left there for all enternity and completely helpless as punishment for her sins)

So pretty much she's down and out. Tho now thinking about it I'd love to see what would have gone down when those two finaly met and battled for dominance.


And as for Genesis, I really don't care what he does as long as you don't play as him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If their goal is to make a good story and continually keep the franchise going, then they'll go the route of Crisis Core, and continue to add on new exposition and events and not do the same plot. They've introduced a whole can of new ideas and characters so they won't need to bring back the same threat to the planet. It's ridiculous and illogical.

They can either go with and continue delving into the new concepts and characters they have to make a new story that will keep the franchise's continuity moving forward or....just make another FFVII and totally tear apart the plot resolution of the previous game?

Why in God's name would that sell anything or make any sense? You must have an illogically low view of the creator's and their idea.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Nocturne link=topic=488.msg16882#msg16882 date=1234320210]
I completely disagree that DoC was horrible. I think it gets way too much flak. The story was good. Graphics were good for the PS2. The controls and battle system were by no means perfect, but they werent NEARLY as bad as people say. Ive played much worse games that have gotten better scores.

And it was by no means a failure. It sold well over a million copies.
[/quote]

DoC had comepletely lackluster gameplay, a dull story which involves a dull character, rehashed his past turmoil from FF7, and was all around underwhelming.

It was a not a very good game.

 

[strode78]

well, if i had such a low opinion i wouldn't be here, but i do believe that they will do everything to turn the idea (sephiroth's return) on its head. i still think that genesis and a few other pary members going into the lifestream to take on sepheroth's will, taking the fight to him (without sephiroth returning, just in the background like sin), while focusing on party dynamics and development of the protagonists, would be a way to attempt to satisfy everyone. AND i'm sure there are others.

In this model the pieces of sepheroth's will are seen as more of an impurity in the lifestream more than a character.

This is just an example of a way that they could switch it up so that its not the same old plot, but still retains the central conflict, AND would bring a conclusive end to the genesis/sephiroth plot


my point is that sephiroth can be brought back in a different form and context.

 

[Max Payne]

How the hell are they supposed to traverse the fucking lifestream to fight Sefiros' will?

 

[NoenGaruth]

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=488.msg16979#msg16979 date=1234339152]
How the hell are they supposed to traverse the fucking lifestream to fight Sefiros' will?
[/quote]

Kill themselves?

Unless Aerith steps in and kicks Sephy's ass, which would be quite ironic...

 

[Alex]

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=488.msg16979#msg16979 date=1234339152]
How the hell are they supposed to traverse the fucking lifestream to fight Sefiros' will?
[/quote]
Special submarines.

 

[OWA-2]

Are you guys foreting the final battle of FFVII, where Cloud fights Sephiroth in the Lifestream, and free Holy by destroying his will?


And Mako, your Zeromus example was a bad one, because

Spoiler

he DID return in FFIV's sequel.