The Lion King (2019)

solo player sab

normie trash
AKA
Sab
Hello negative nancies.

I AM EXCITED FOR THIS

Thank you for listening.

In all seriousness, there are two choices when it comes to these remakes: 1. Complain (which is fine and valid, I'm not saying don't) or 2. HOP ON BOARD.

I'm ON BOARD!!!!

Ngl I do appreciate the critical analyses from TLK die-hards. I guess as an average/mediocre fan myself, I get excited over any spin off, remake, etcetc...and this trailer excites me tbh :P I love the cast and I think it is visually beautiful.

I LOVED the musical and BEST BELIEVE I was going out of my mind when Hans Zimmer and his orchestra performed Circle of Life at Coachella. Honestly if its Lion King I'm going to love it.
 
In Jungle Book, they're pretty short, and played off more as they just decided to sing a bit, as opposed to doing a full on musical number.




They'll probably do similar here, since Jon Favreau directed both of them.

Ah, ok, that makes more sense then, it does look like it works ok with the realistic CG there.
 

Dashell

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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves

I.... don't like this... it just... it doesn't feel right for some reason. I mean yeah it looks stunning, but... I don't know I just feel like it loses some of its charm when it's so realistic. Scar just doesn't look evil and you can barely see his scar.

I dunno, it's cute but it just doesn't feel right to me for some reason
 
No doubt it's very, very impressive (from a technical standpoint) what they did with CG, but, personally, this does absolutely nothing for me. I just don't see the point of photorealism here. The animals can't emote as much or be as expressive as stylized 2D (or 3D, for that matter) designs, so it just feels like it'll be really jarring to have realistic-looking animals act out TLK's dramatic story. Plus, being a remake, it's hard to not compare it to the original. Like, the sequence where Simba ages just has way less character in this because the animals are just... walking - in the original they were doing a strut, but since that wouldn't work with realistic designs they're walking like actual animals would. It's also missing the distinctive colors of the original. I hate to be so negative, but this just isn't for me.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
When changing mediums from a cartoon to live action / realistic CGI, things are going to seem more muted and less like caricatures or archetypes. I think that a part of that (also in terms of Aladdin) is that modern films place a bigger focus on the fact that it's less immediately easy to spot who a bad guy is, and especially that they're not just darker and more sinister-looking versions of everyone else (which I'd argue is an important and positive change).

One of the things that goes hand-in-hand with that is that while these films are meant to be close to the originals and also pull on the nostalgia of the original audience, these are also going to be the original versions of the story for other generations of kids who really love the medium of ever-more-realistic computer graphics. When you think about The Lion King or The Jungle Book, they're stories that are intentionally set in the real world – but only portrayed as animation because that used to be the defacto way of telling stories where your imagination could create anything, and there wasn't any difference between the actors and the creatures and the world.

Most people are at least subtly aware that Disney's animation is largely responsible for the more exaggerated and caricature-like portrayal of characters that influenced anime – which then created a bit of a feedback loop into the entire animation industry overall as time went on. If you think back to old shows like Johnny Quest & Scooby-Doo, their human characters have incredibly regularly proportioned human characters characters by comparison – but especially in their faces. If you're an artist, there's a reason that animated caricatures of a particular variety are very popular. In almost every animated series with human characters, there are barely _any_ characters who have natural proportions.

However, there is a MASSIVE distinction that comes around when you're attempting to create a real-world-based story. This is largely driven in the games industry. Even Final Fantasy games are returning back to a realm that pushes closer and closer towards realism. As a result, this is where a lot of the industry professionals are spending more and more of their time. In the film world, doing visual effects and digital makeup for actors and masking stunt doubles, etc. land in that same space. We'll see more and more stories being told in video games and other realtime rendered solutions, placed in a believable as the real world setting as those industries grow. I think that with this happening you're going to see a swing back in the other direction, where you'll have kids who're more interested in making stories in fantasy worlds that feel totally real, and that the benefits of animation and exaggeration start to become something that're used in their own way to craft the look and feel of a story – Overwatch probably being a decent popular example of that kind of middleground, but also because they use a lot of classic animation techniques to exaggerate motion and features more in movement than in their designs.

Now to bring that all back around:

If you imagine yourself as a little kid and you're pretending to be a lion after seeing The Lion King, there's something really meaningful by having that lion appear to actually BE a lion as they appear in the real world. You can tell fantastical stories that are closer to what they were meant to've been at the time they were originally conceived – which are as stories set in the real world with real animals. Inherently if you grew up on the originals, they're going to seem strange and foreign (especially because without some of the exaggerations they lack some of the subtly psychologically manipulative and somewhat problematic techniques that make us care a LOT about these animated depictions). I like to think about it through the lens of assuming that you had nothing but the audio from the original and your imagination – since I used to listen to a LOT of stories just on recordings or on the radio as a kid (I'm not that old, but my parents didn't have a tv in our house when I was a kid). These are the kinds of things that I imagined and the worlds that I always wanted to see, but that just weren't ever possible to portray, and I'm beyond happy that these are the things that are being done that actually make it worth retelling the stories.


tl;dr – While there's still a place for both the visual representations of a universe to be fully realistic like Detective Pikachu or just a fancier version of the original like Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution, I'm glad that this version of The Lion King is closer to the style of the former, and not the latter.


Also, if you don't think that they can be as expressive – I will wholeheartedly disagree with you. We still haven't seen the characters actively talking in the trailers, but mostly still just get everything as voiceovers with cuts to the characters (because that takes a TON of work to do), but just for reference – real lions have a full range of expressions that make for excellent animation – it just takes forever to get all of that put together as compared to a traditional 2D animation:

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2_CATERS_LION_WITH_FUNNY_FACE_03-800x498.jpg


hB170B2B0








X :neo:
 

Dashell

SMILE!
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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel Hylian. I mean if they were going to go the CGI route I wish they had just gone with still cartoony but good CGI. They could still have the stunning realism for backgrounds but make the characters look less... ... real? idk

and X-Soldier, I hope they make some of those faces in the movie XD Yeah they can be expressive I just... I dunno, this one isn't clicking for me
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
in my ideal world this movie completely tanks and Disney remembers that there is still a market for traditional animation and finances something in the vein. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen, but I don't think what we're given in these live-action reboots is worth that shift in focus.

Which is ridiculous because we could literally have both lmfao.

There's nothing inherently offensive about this new version, but there isn't really anything interesting either. Ariana Grande says it best for me: right, now my whole attitude with this is "Thank U, Next", but I really want to skip to the end track of the album "Break Up with Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored."

YAWN.
 
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When changing mediums from a cartoon to live action / realistic CGI, things are going to seem more muted and less like caricatures or archetypes. I think that a part of that (also in terms of Aladdin) is that modern films place a bigger focus on the fact that it's less immediately easy to spot who a bad guy is, and especially that they're not just darker and more sinister-looking versions of everyone else (which I'd argue is an important and positive change).

I think both subtle and overt villains can be entertaining, depending on what the story is aiming for. Here, I think it’s mostly the lack of Jeremy Irons and that Scar doesn't have as many trappings of the original design (black mane) that’s jarring :monster: . (A bit off topic, but speaking of Disney villains, personally, I really think it’s time for Disney/Pixar to give the twist villain a break for a bit in their animated movies.)

One of the things that goes hand-in-hand with that is that while these films are meant to be close to the originals and also pull on the nostalgia of the original audience, these are also going to be the original versions of the story for other generations of kids who really love the medium of ever-more-realistic computer graphics. When you think about The Lion King or The Jungle Book, they're stories that are intentionally set in the real world – but only portrayed as animation because that used to be the defacto way of telling stories where your imagination could create anything, and there wasn't any difference between the actors and the creatures and the world.

I don’t doubt there are kids who really love realistic graphics, but I’m not sure that this is generational think besides the fact that this is just what kids are getting exposed to more often nowadays. I know Princess and the Frog didn’t do too well, but Disney has a bit of a self-fulfilling thing going by saying that kids won’t watch 2D animated movies when neither they nor any major American studio make feature-length 2D anymore (whereas, 2D is still kicking in Europe and Japan, of course). That said, if this movie inspires kids to love the craft of CG animation, then that’s honestly really cool. I think the original Lion King did that for me with 2D animation. I remember seeing a little making-of featurette or something, like showing how they brought in real lions for reference, and the realization that people drew everything in the movie just bowled me over.

I’m not sure I agree about the point that 2D animation was only used because of technical limitations, but I can see the argument for a more realistic Jungle Book with realistic animal characters to complement a human actor. However, I think The Lion King, which has no humans at all, is a bit of a different case. There’s a long history of stylized or anthropomorphized animals in stuff like illustration and satirical cartoons, which inspired Disney’s animal designs in the past. Even though animals in those mediums can get pretty realistic, there’s almost always some degree of stylization going on, and I don’t think those mediums would be better served by full photographic realism. I think the original TLK is more akin to those things than something that was going for extreme verisimilitude.

If you imagine yourself as a little kid and you're pretending to be a lion after seeing The Lion King, there's something really meaningful by having that lion appear to actually BE a lion as they appear in the real world. You can tell fantastical stories that are closer to what they were meant to've been at the time they were originally conceived – which are as stories set in the real world with real animals.

I obviously can only speak to my own experience, but I LOVED both TLK and nature documentaries. I’m sure 1995 me would’ve loved a realistic TLK, but I also think if I was a kid now I’d like the original if it was made today, too. In my experience, kids just really like animal stories in general, I think, they’re not particular about the style or medium. But, different strokes and all, I don’t doubt that realism can really resonate for people, even if that wasn’t necessarily my personal experience.

I don’t think TLK was made with this degree of realism in mind, just because it’s set in the real world. It’s got a Hamlet-esque plot, and, like many of the other Disney Renaissance films it draws inspiration from Broadway. I think 2D animation is/was the perfect way to blend realistic touches (the basis for the setting, aspects of the animation/character design) with the musical numbers and dramatic plot.

Also, if you don't think that they can be as expressive – I will wholeheartedly disagree with you. We still haven't seen the characters actively talking in the trailers, but mostly still just get everything as voiceovers with cuts to the characters (because that takes a TON of work to do), but just for reference – real lions have a full range of expressions that make for excellent animation – it just takes forever to get all of that put together as compared to a traditional 2D animation:

Those are really neat photos of lions - it’ d be really cool if they brought those types of expressions into the movie. That said, without context, other than the roaring one are these things actually things you can see for an appreciable amount of time, or are they just kind of freeze-frames within other actions that we can only see thanks to photography? You can get funky expressions from animals within motions, but I’m not sure they’re comparable to cartoony animation poses when you factor in how much you can see in motion. Not to say that real animals aren't expressive, I just don't think they're as expressive, or as expressive in the same way, as deliberately cartoony ones designed to more easily mimic human expressions.

Plus, I think the bigger issue for this movie will be things like grief, cheekiness, sly malevolence, etc. I disagree that photorealism for animals can convey these emotions or expressions as well as something more stylized.
 

ChipNoir

Pro Adventurer
Let's be honest: CGI is cheaper in man hours than traditional animation. It still takes technical know-how, but it's hell of a lot more cost-saving anyway you slice it given you don't have someone sitting there hand animating, inking, and color-celling every single frame for 3-5 years.

Kids will watch whatever the hell you put infront of them. The modern Disney Channel line up, which I had to endure for six months, runs the gamut from cheap CGI stuff like Princess Sophia the First, to highly polished unique serialized animation with unique styles for Gravity Falls and Tangled, to whatever teen/family drama is popular these days (The kids aren't usually watching tv in the evening so I never kept track).

It's really, really just trying to drag parents back into the theaters with their kids to try to create this cheap, shot for shot repackaging that manages to miss the mark with all audiences. Adults will hate it because it's too familiar; Kid's will get bored with the often too self-serious plotlines.

Beauty and the Beast, The Jungle Book, and especially Cinderella did REALLY badly with the kids in my family. Anecdotal, yes, but I think this would be a common issue.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
^That's a common misconception. Pencil/Paper animation is more cost effective for the same reason practical effects are more cost effecting that CGI effects. Also, the most time consuming portion would have been the cel painting, which has been pretty much eliminated with digital ink and paint.

Disney also still produces line tests to get a feel of the animation before going ahead with full CGI rendering after, because it saves dollars in the long run. Ex:


also really worth reading the comment posted on this video. I went to one of the last few north american schools that still teach on pencil/paper, and reading shit like what Nick wrote there, stuff like this Lion King reboot is a big reminder of how the current film landscape really, really does not give a shit about the old craft. 2D jobs still exist in North American TV, but they are fewer and less paid than the CGI jobs, which breeds a lot of panic and competition among artists. The productions we do get are under greater threat of being dropped, or outright replaced by CGI. It's a conversation that's always on our minds. My Little Pony, one of the more lucrative 2d properties of the last 10 years, is ending its run and already has a CGI reboot announcement.

It sucks, and it's really hard not to take these remakes as a fuck you to the artists who aren't getting this kind of work anymore. It makes adds a layer of difficulty that prevents me from being able to support this.
 
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Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
“If The Lion King were accurately labeled as an animated film, it would also create a headache for the company during awards season. [...] Disney has already planned ahead and won’t run The Lion King for best animated film, instead pushing it for a visual effects Academy Award, thus leaving a clear path for Frozen 2 and Toy Story 4 to make unimpeded Oscar runs.”

Does no one else see how this shit is getting ridiculous?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
TBH, I think that traditional 2D animation, 3D animation, and photorealistic VFX animation all definitely deserve overwhelmingly emphasis on the work that's done in them, and I don't think that having them in the same category is going to do that.That's just going to conflate the area into becoming polygon count dick-measuring contest. There's no sense in having to compete over a spot for crediting their animators. They playing field for the amount of VFX and animation work compared to the basic film genres is already WOEFULLY too small, and I can definitely see why they don't want to categorize them the same way, and it's kind of hard to blame them.

Is now:
  • The Secret Life of Pets, Toy Story, & Frozen which are essentially modern day animation with an emphasis on their stylizations.
  • Detective Pikachu which are more like modern day Roger Rabbit or hybrids between live action and animation.
  • The Lion King where it's attempting to make you unaware that it's an animation at all.
  • Avatar & Planet of the Apes are blending the invisible VFX animation.
Would have been:
  • 2D animations
  • 2D animations over film into special effects
  • Dubbing over shots of animals, possibly with digitally replacing mouths
  • Special Effects costuming
When you look at how and why the particular technologies that're being used get used, I think that there's a lot that's come in to the world of digital animation, but the role of what the film is attempting to do with it is very much not what you'd expect from just "animation" and it's far too bloated of an umbrella term to really be useful to the people putting in the work to doing what they're doing and why, as well as the work that it takes to do it.

Really the core issue is with the Academy Awards themselves being outdated and needing to expand to accurately give appreciation to all of the insane amounts of work that animators and VFX artists do to make all the movie magic work in all the different formats.



X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
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X

Dashell

SMILE!
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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
They have no emotion at all. You can't even tell who's singing half the time. Everything is... brown... there's no depth or color. Their mouth movement is creepy as fuck and if it wasn't for that it just looks like someone took a scene from a National Geographic and put Lion King music over it. That's the problem :monster:


I'm glad everyone is starting to agree with what I said in the beginning though. The movie will be a big financial success I'm sure, but it's nice to see more and more people are speaking out about how bad this looks.


EDIT
I also feel like a lot of the trailers didn't show the characters talking and now we know why :monster:
 
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