The Planet, Jenova, & Genesis after [ ν ] – εуλ 0010

[X-SOLDIER]

I wanted to note how appropriate this image is to Genesis' character arc.


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[Roger]

Genesis didn't really have a particular mentor though, it fits Zack's journey pretty good I have to say.

 

[OWA-2]

Very interesting read.
However, I doubt even S-E put so much thought into it, unfortunatelly.

And really, there are some things in your analysis/theory that are a little... Off, in my opinion.
For example: You completelly ignored Weiss' existence. You assumed that Safer Sephiroth have a connection with the Planet(and Minerva in specific) just because of the angel-wings, when we all know that S-E add angel-wings to different entities and enemies from different FFs, just because they love doing this(a better indication for Safer's connection with the Planet would be his halo, because this is a characteristic only found in higher beings created by the Planet[Minerva, Omega, and Zirconiade, all have them]). You assumed that Jenova used the Planet's memories to gain knowledge of the Ancients, when in fact, the game tell us in two different moments that Jenova-cells can read the mind of people close to them(a better explanation of how Jenova obtained the information it needed, in my opinion). And IMHO you gave too much importance to Jenova itself, degrading Sephiroth to a mere host for it's revival(and eventual destruction), something I doubt S-E will ever do.

I'm sorry for criticizing your theory so much, but that's just my opinion. There are some very good and well-thought points in it, and I congratulate you for that. But I don't think everything you said, is gonna happen in the next game.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Very interesting read.
However, I doubt even S-E put so much thought into it, unfortunatelly.

And really, there are some things in your analysis/theory that are a little... Off, in my opinion.
For example: You completelly ignored Weiss' existence. You assumed that Safer Sephiroth have a connection with the Planet(and Minerva in specific) just because of the angel-wings, when we all know that S-E add angel-wings to different entities and enemies from different FFs, just because they love doing this(a better indication for Safer's connection with the Planet would be his halo, because this is a characteristic only found in higher beings created by the Planet[Minerva, Omega, and Zirconiade, all have them]). You assumed that Jenova used the Planet's memories to gain knowledge of the Ancients, when in fact, the game tell us in two different moments that Jenova-cells can read the mind of people close to them(a better explanation of how Jenova obtained the information it needed, in my opinion). And IMHO you gave too much importance to Jenova itself, degrading Sephiroth to a mere host for it's revival(and eventual destruction), something I doubt S-E will ever do.

I'm sorry for criticizing your theory so much, but that's just my opinion. There are some very good and well-thought points in it, and I congratulate you for that. But I don't think everything you said, is gonna happen in the next game.

No worries, I appreciate the criticism as much as the praise.

Weiss was more connected to the general lifecycle of the Planet with Omega and Chaos. Since he lacks any J/S/G Cells, and is being manipulated by Hojo some of the time, despite being a powerful entity, I don't really see him being a largely significant portion of the Planet's fight against Jenova. He is present at the end of DoC in Genesis' arms, but that seemed like something more plot specific that didn't really fit the speculation that I wanted to focus on for this particular article. It's less about who is involved, and more about the Planet & Jenova's perpetual War, and how Genesis could be used to end it, not really who is involved in it's accomplishment, aside from the basics.

The halo is a good thing to point out, and something that I didn't notice, but is a good indicator. The 6 equally spaced white wings all arranged at the base of the Goddess Statue & the ones on the lower half of Safer Sephiroth seemed more than just an SE wing fetish. Seraph Sephiroth was the FIRST thing I thought of when I saw it upon playing through Crisis Core, and it's stuck with me ever since. Admittedly, it's probably one of my most broad assumptions, because it feels like there's a connection that hasn't been talked about, but very little documentation to back it up.

You mention Jenova's mind-reading powers. If you have a link to any of that text, I'd be more than happy to see it, as it's something that I did in fact overlook.

As for Sephiroth, I still see him as playing a role, although I did rather downplay his importance in my article, because there's a lot that I COULD get into that. He and Genesis have a fairly fierce rivalry, and whether or not Jenova actually fully comes back isn't really important as long as her will is removed from Gaia's Lifestream where it currently resides. That's why I was focusing on her bringing her will back to her fully re-formed body. Sephiroth popping his head back up isn't really something I felt was too important to make a big deal over because it's happened before, whereas Jenova coming together is key to her being purged from Gaia, and is my reason for focusing on her and not Sephiroth. I've always seen Sephiroth as humanity's embodyment of the war against Jenova, and Jenova as an entity/being as the real threat to the Planet's ability to heal, and that's what I wanted to focus on.

Again, most of this is wishful thinking and speculation, and sequels are usually far from what anyone expects, ESPECIALLY ones from SE, but I think that the lack of information has been on long enough that getting speculation and some theorycrafting started was a good way to get some ideas and thoughts flowing back on the universe of FFVII, because although it feels that everything's been done to death in this series a lot of the time, because of the Compilation, I still think that there's a lot of mystery and magic that's untouched, it's just a little harder to assemble.



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[OWA-2]

About Jenova's mind-reading ability...

From the Ultimania:

*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings
of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to
immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the
Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this
was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

Link: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/42137

And from the original game:

Sephiroth
"Cloud... Don't blame Tifa."
"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the
power of Jenova."
"Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating
you."
"Out of Tifa's memory..."
"A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them."

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Awesome. Thanks much for this.

I'll fully admit that the bit about the using the Lifestream for memories is covered by her innate abilities as described here (wondering if I should make an edit to that section in the article or not now). I think that the initial injury is still significant in that it's likely needed to gather energy for using Meteor (if in fact the Black Materia isn't exclusive to Gaia), as well as the idea that Jenova is somewhat parasitic, and drawing the energy in to herself, this is the most effective method.


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[Roger]

Weiss was more connected to the general lifecycle of the Planet with Omega and Chaos. Since he lacks any J/S/G Cells,

I've said this before, both Weiss and Shelke have G-cells and I think it speaks for itself that Weiss may have normal SOLDIER J-cells as well, being SOLDIER and all.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@ ShikamaruNara, this is the information that I was going off of; Source: Deepground History Revealed

As well as the continual testing of the Deepground SOLDIERs, the scientists closely studied three unique children that had been born and raised in the facility. As orphans, Rosso and Nero were continually under extreme experimentation based on their genetic traits, as was Nero’s biological older brother, Weiss, who had become an interest to the scientists following his remarkable growth in ability without exposure to the cells of Jenova. Over time, through ruthless testing based on his body’s incredible reaction to nothing but untainted Mako, Weiss was hailed as a pure soldier, and was given the title ‘The Immaculate’ by the researchers.

Meant to update this earlier, but I got sidetracked. I ammended the bit about Jenova's Mimic ability in how she understands and reads minds into the post. Many thanks again for bringing it to my attention OWA-2.


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[S and G]

We know from Dirge of Cerberus that Weiss was untainted by Jenova cells. That was the whole point in Hojo using him as Omega's vessel

 

[Roger]

Same source further down the story

Genesis, along with his friend and fellow product of Project Gillian, Angeal, were dubbed SOLDIER Type G. In Deepground, this was no surprise, since all of the colored Tsviets had been injected with Genesis’ genes. It was a prerequisite to earning a color title, and becoming one of the strongest and most gifted soldiers within the facility. Already regarded as one of the strongest in Deepground as an adolescent, Weiss showed signs of reaching a level of ability superior to anything imagined in Deepground. Similarly, Nero and Rosso’s strength grew. As the sole survivors of the respective experiments that had made them who they were, each was branded with an epithet of color as a codename, given only to those infused with the SOLIDER’s genes to become the highest level of existence in Deepground.

We know from Dirge of Cerberus that Weiss was untainted by Jenova cells. That was the whole point in Hojo using him as Omega's vessel

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2501

In Deepground, research using G-Cells resumed, and Weiss became the first non-infant to be infused.

Your thread, not mine, dude.

 

[S and G]

Your thread, not mine, dude

I'm aware of that. My point is that you shouldn't even have had to read the part about Deepground's history to know about Weiss. It's quite an important plot point to Dirge of Cerberus

 

[Roger]

I'm aware of that. My point is that you shouldn't even have had to read the part about Deepground's history to know about Weiss.

Well, I dunno what to tell you: I read Deepgrounds history anyway, thought it was interesting, so here we are.

 

[S and G]

Well, I dunno what to tell you: I read Deepgrounds history anyway, thought it was interesting, so here we are.

Sorry if that came across as snappy, it wasn't intentional. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. You'll find many answers to the questions surrounding the origins of the Tsviets there

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Weiss was brought up by OWA-2, because I basically ignored him in my article. The overall point for me doing so was that, while Weiss's role is likely a part of things, since Genesis takes him away at the end of DoC, I didn't find enough hints of his possible role tying in with the end of Jenova to being him up in the Planet/Jenova/Genesis Article. Also, compared to the previous 3 entities, Weiss' role is fairly minor, aside from leading to the destruction of Omega Weapon.

There is one thing that I'd like to mention though, in reference to your comments that supports my reasoning for not talking about Weiss. The quote talks about Project Gillian, and then states that "(they) had been injected with Genesis’ genes." If so that, would mean this is how the evolution of the Tsviets powers take place.

Jenova: Origin of the J-Cells
Gillian: Infused with J-Cells >> her cells become G Cells.
Genesis: Infused with G-Cells >> his Genes/cells also mutate (referring to them as G² Genes).
Tsviets: Infused with G² Genes >> their cells also Mutate.

That would mean MOST of their abilities are a combination of the other experimentations, and the environment of Deepground. Essentially their powers are far enough removed that the source of their abilities is likely in a mutated cell that completely originates from Gaia. That would mean that it's far enough from the Jenova ones, that even if Genesis were to re-enact a Complete Reunion by uniting Sephiroth's S-Cells, and Gillian's G-Cells to contain Jenova, as I suggested in the article, I doubt that it would affect the Tsviets. Weiss especially would likely be unaffected, because he's explicitly been stated to have been untained by Jenova. I'll just re-iterate that while I think that, if Weiss is still alive, he'd have some role to play, it's not really the focus of removing Jenova from Gaia, and there isn't a lot of data to speculate on what else he'd be doing during that time, and that's why he's not included in my article.


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[Roger]

Well, I'd have to say Genesis' cells effects on Hollander and the other dudes in CC seemed pretty Jenovay to me (indeed seemed the whole point of their effect of them) but yeah, if the next game is about a elaborate plan of Genesis to rid the world of Jenova in self-sacrifice, I'm guessing Weiss and Shelke probably'll be quietly excluded.