"There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this real?

[curiousACfan]

During a discussion (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=939394&topic=47723874&page=7) over on GameFAQ's Dissidia board about who the strongest FF villain is, a poster called ximaus contested the long-held belief that the staff commentary of the Japanese Limited Edition version of AC contains a quote from Nomura where he says that Sephiroth is the strongest FFVII character and that no one can ever surpass him.

As far as I can remember, the first time that was ever brought up was on Xcomp's FFVII Web Novel site (http://one.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/), in his summary of the staff's commentary (the following line was paraphrased and not a direct quote): "Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."

FlareGamer followed not long after with a similar claim (http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#more109) that was supposed to be from Nomura (whether this one was presented as a direct quote or not is unclear): "Kitase said that Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him."

While two separate sources making the same claim might be enough on most days, the FlareGamer article does list the Limited Edition of AC as one of its sources, presumably meaning that this claim may have come from the same source as Xcomp's. In which case, a misinterpretation by both Xcomp and FlareGamer is possible.

Such a small but crucial mistake is possible, even by multiple translators. After all, remember the big misunderstanding about the Ivalice timeline that came as a result of misinterpretations of the Magick Pot entry in FFXII?

Even the official English translation of that game encouraged the misunderstanding that FFTactics happened before FFXII, and it was only after the Ultimania Omega for XII came out with the intended sequence of events that everyone knew for sure what the intended reading of the Magick Pot entry was.

The quote in the AC commentary that ximaus thinks was probably misunderstood is this one:
"Ano, Kitase to hanasiteiru naka de,
Yappari sono, Sephiroth to iu sonzai wa kanari okikute
7 no saga no naka de.
Sephiroth wo koeru teki to iu no wa
acha ikenai to iu no wa."

I made a sad attempt at turning it into Japanese for easier translation:
"????Kitase ?????????????????????Sephiroth???????????????????????????????????Sephiroth ???????????????????????????????????"

The translation ximaus gets out of it is this:
"I was speaking to Kitase...
There's no denying that Sephiroth is very important within the saga of FF7.
There can't really be any opponents
who exceed (his importance)."

He said that the context of the conversation there was why Sephiroth was chosen to be the villain again rather than someone else.

I'm not that good at Japanese, but that's close to what I would have taken from it, assuming the context is right (which the line before "exceed" would indicate). I would have made it something like:
"I was speaking with Kitase ...
No doubt Sephiroth's existence is very important within the saga of 7. There can't be an opponent who surpasses Sephiroth [in importance]."

The only other source of a summary of the commentary either of us have found is this webpage ximaus discovered: http://www.geocities.jp/our_homepage_brotherhood/ac_commentary.html

About 15 lines from the bottom is a line that begins with "Producer Kitase" and says something like "Producer Yoshinori Kitase decided that a villain above Sephiroth in FF7's world can't be created." The context there is obviously unclear, but it doesn't mention Sephiroth's will or power.

Also interesting is that -- counting up from the bottom -- each line there seems to be the same as each line on Xcomp's staff commentary page (not counting the bits of quoted exchange on Xcomp's). I'm thinking one summary is largely a copy of the other, just translated.

So, to the point of this post: Does anyone here have the Japanese Limited Edition of AC and is willing to listen to the commentary and find out if ximaus' quote is right, or if there's another quote somewhere that he might have missed? Have we been wrong all this time about this quote existing?

Thanks, guys.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

This isn't really on topic with what you're asking per-se, but for the record I don't think Sephiroth is the strongest FF villain.

 

[Alex]

over on GameFAQ's Dissidia board about who the strongest FF villain is, a poster called ximaus contested the long-held belief that the staff commentary of the Japanese Limited Edition version of AC contains a quote from Nomura where he says that Sephiroth is the strongest FFVII character and that no one can ever surpass him.

I've highlighted the parts that are relevant.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Those crazy kids.

 

[Dark and Divine]

The translation ximaus gets out of it is this:
"I was speaking to Kitase...
There's no denying that Sephiroth is very important within the saga of FF7.
There can't really be any opponents
who exceed (his importance)."

He said that the context of the conversation there was why Sephiroth was chosen to be the villain again rather than someone else.

I'm not that good at Japanese, but that's close to what I would have taken from it, assuming the context is right (which the line before "exceed" would indicate). I would have made it something like:
"I was speaking with Kitase ...
No doubt Sephiroth's existence is very important within the saga of 7. There can't be an opponent who surpasses Sephiroth [in importance]."

This sounds more or less like a statement that Nomura did in "The Distance", the making of commentary in the AC DVD.

This is relevant because the statement where they said that they can't make anyone stronger than Sephiroth in FFVII universe was apparently made in a Director's commentary that was only featured in the japanese DVD.

So maybe Ximaus based himself in "Distance"; and not in the japanese Director's Commentary.

Maybe Hitoshura or Schala-Kitty can clear this up.

Regardless, even without those statements, Sephiroth has feats that make him the most powerful being in the FFVII Universe (for example, no one else was able to corrupt a considerable amount of Lifestream and make it his/her own).

Picking up a sub-topic, i think that the most powerfull FF villain is ExDeath/Neo Exdeath.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't mind Sephiroth being the strongest dude around in FF7, but this comment bothers me

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."

How self limiting! Of course they can, they're the writers, they could think up a stronger character than Sephiroth if a plot ever called for it, and its limiting to state that they can't.

 

[Masamune]

Because the rampant order of Sephyism would sacrifice them to their unholy god if they dared to commit such a sin.

 

[Dark and Divine]

I don't mind Sephiroth being the strongest dude around in FF7, but this comment bothers me

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."

How self limiting! Of course they can, they're the writers, they could think up a stronger character than Sephiroth if a plot ever called for it, and its limiting to state that they can't.

Perhaps this has to do with the creators viewing Sephiroth as the ultimate villain in the FFVII Univers.

They want him to be the ultimate villain in all aspects, including power.

 

[curiousACfan]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

[quote author=Dark and Divine link=topic=400.msg10878#msg10878 date=1232818875]This sounds more or less like a statement that Nomura did in "The Distance", the making of commentary in the AC DVD.[/quote]

Ah, you're right. I guess ximaus had "The Distance" confused with the staff commentary from the Japanese DVD.

Thanks for helping with this.

Still, the other question stands: Does anyone have the staff commentary from the Japanese DVD and know the exact quote? All we've ever seen are summaries. It would be nice to have the actual Japanese line and know the context once and for all.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Masamune link=topic=400.msg10887#msg10887 date=1232824348]
Because the rampant order of Sephyism would sacrifice them to their unholy god if they dared to commit such a sin.
[/quote]

 

[Makoeyes987]

How the fucking hell could Sephiroth be the strongest villain when you've got a fucking tree able to spawn black holes to suck people into oblivion?

Or the crazy bitch in face paint able to manipulate time and suck existence all into her.

Or hell...there's Chaos. The biggest baddie of them all

 

[OWA-2]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=400.msg10871#msg10871 date=1232816336]This isn't really on topic with what you're asking per-se, but for the record I don't think Sephiroth is the strongest FF villain.[/quote]

Of course he isn't. As stated above, Ex-Death, Ultimecia, and Chaos are above him. Maybe Kuja and Cloud of Darkness too.

And back to the topic, I think Sephiroth shouldn't be the strongest FFVII villain either. Yes, he had control over the Negative Lifestream, but that was only a portion of the real thing.
By logic, characters like Omega-Weiss(Weiss merged with the living incarnation of all the Lifestream in the planet), and Minerva(who represents the will of the planet itself) should be stronger than him.
But it seems that S-E disagrees.

Sephiroth's popularity > logic.

 

[sephirothpaine]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=400.msg10915#msg10915 date=1232831189]
How the fucking hell could Sephiroth be the strongest villain when you've got a fucking tree able to spawn black holes to suck people into oblivion?

Or the crazy bitch in face paint able to manipulate time and suck existence all into her.

Or hell...there's Chaos. The biggest baddie of them all
[/quote]

....lol

Got to love Nerolol

But I guess it sort of makes sence. Sephiroth is the toughest baddy in KH

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I agree that people confuse the line of the strongest FF7 baddie with the strongest FF baddie. I mean, while Sephiroth is indeed powerful, I'm not sure if that makes him the most powerful of all. As far as I know this has never been clarified either way, so I simply go back to what is said about the being the most powerful in the FF7 universe. That said, peoople dispute the point because the source material is still kind of confusing, but it stands to reason that he is. I mean the other entiies within the FF7 world are powerful too, but I haven't seen them get any sort of acknowledgement by anything even remotely official to clarify that they have "nothing above them".

Not say that SE won't change their minds and suddenly decide Marlene's the most powerful thing, though. Just working off what I know as of right now.

 

[curiousACfan]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

I don't think anyone in that thread confuses being the strongest FFVII character with being the strongest FF character period.

The reason it became an issue of discussion is because someone brought it up to say that Sephiroth must be stronger than Sin since FFVII and FFX have a story-based connection.

Obviously Sephiroth -- even at his best -- wouldn't be as strong as Exdeath or Ultimecia at their best. Probably not Cloud of Darkness or Kuja either.

I think, though, that discussions like that should use the characters' natural powers, not the power-ups they get from outside sources throughout the game.

So you'd compare (*SPOILERS FOR FFI THROUGH FF10 AHEAD*):








-Garland before he was Chaos
-Emperor Mateus from before he became the King of Hell
-Cloud of Darkness as normal
-Zemus as Zeromus, as that was a natural evolution of his power/hate, not a power-up from an outside source
-Exdeath without the Void
-Kefka without the statues
-Sephiroth without Meteor or the Negative Lifestream
-Ultimecia prior to Time Compression and the absorbing of other sorceress' powers
-Kuja prior to absorbing the souls of the Invincible and going Trance
-Sin or Braska's Final Aeon; take your pick

*END SPOILERS*





That situation is far more interesting. A battle with the power-ups, though, quickly is handed to Ultimecia or Exdeath.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Although FFVII and FFX share a plot connection, they are not the same. FFX is not FFVII, hence stating there's nothing above Sephiroth in FFVII, doesn't automatically include FFX, because...FFX is not FFVII. Period.

And regarding characters with their natural powers, Ultimecia still has the ability to manipulate time. And ExDeath still has control of the Void. He can still summon it and control it because he's part Enuo, who had the power to summon and control the void. When he turned into NeoExDeath, he literally became one with the void. Which is different.

 

[Max Payne]

Same Universe =/= Same story.

 

[curiousACfan]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

Guys, I know that. You don't have to keep shooting the messenger here. I said something occurred. That doesn't tell you anything of my role in its occurrence.

The important thing to take from me bringing it up was that it's what led to the search for this quote about Sephiroth. I was just giving you the background because you guys seemed more interested in what you'd concluded was the background of the search and the conclusions that would be drawn from it.

I'm not suggesting that this quote affects something like Seph being the strongest FF villain by virtue of being the strongest FFVII villain, or even whether Sin is stronger than Sephiroth -- though in the original FFVII, I'd say Seph wasn't quite there. Maybe he was in AC.

It still led to valid curiosities about the reality of this quote. Given the similarity of the phrasing in English to what Nomura said in "The Distance," it's worth taking the time to confirm the context given how many hundreds of people whip out that quote everytime something like power levels is discussed.

It'll also maybe prevent a lot of complaints and needless arguments down the road when Genesis or somebody else inevitably is portrayed as a threat of Seph's magnitude.

Please, if anyone has the DVD or knows of a transcript, help out. Really, I will appreciate it, and, if anything, I'd use it to end arguments of the kind you guys obviously hate to see. Thanks in advance.

And regarding characters with their natural powers, Ultimecia still has the ability to manipulate time.

We don't know how far that goes, though. She can freeze time, yes -- she even did it in the original game in Timber -- but we don't know for how long, how wide an area she can freeze, or if the person frozen is still aware. We really don't know anything about it.

If Squall can be frozen and still survive an attack set up to kill him, we have to give the same benefit of the doubt to the other villains.

As for anything else she may be able to do to time, it's never been identified. With Time Compression, she'd need Ellone for that.

And ExDeath still has control of the Void. He can still summon it and control it because he's part Enuo, who had the power to summon and control the void.

True, that is a natural ability of his. I suppose it's fair to count that. I guess that pretty much makes him the instant winner of most battles between the villains in their default states.

Cloud of Darkness probably wouldn't be affected by the Void any more than Vincent was by Nero's darkness in Dirge of Cerberus, so those two would still be able to actually fight. Ultimecia's the only other villain who I can maybe see getting around the Void.

She does refer to it as just another part of space-time in Dissidia, but who knows whether that means she could take it on normally or only when compressing time.

 

[OWA-2]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

[quote author=curiousACfan link=topic=400.msg11002#msg11002 date=1232859703]but we don't know for how long, how wide an area she can freeze, or if the person frozen is still aware. We really don't know anything about it.[/quote]

It's impossible to be aware when you are frozen in time. And I believe that she can freeze everything, because time is everywhere.

And ExDeath still has control of the Void. He can still summon it and control it because he's part Enuo, who had the power to summon and control the void.

True, that is a natural ability of his. I suppose it's fair to count that. I guess that pretty much makes him the instant winner of most battles between the villains in their default states.

But Ex-Death didn't had total control over the Void until the end. I mean, he couldn't erase entire cities from existence, anytime he wanted, during the entire story.

She does refer to it as just another part of space-time in Dissidia, but who knows whether that means she could take it on normally or only when compressing time.

I ask you to, please, use spoiler-tags when talking about things mentioned in Dissidia's story.
Unless you are posting in the Dissidia Forum of this website, of course.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, ExDeath couldn't fully use the void because the Warriors of Dawn split the world in two, and the void was sealed away so he *couldn't* use it. When ExDeath shattered the crystals and made the world one again, he had access to the powers he had before as Enuo and thus was back at his full potential.

 

[ForceStealer]

The other thing that seems a little silly about comparing FF villains is that every last one of them lost . And whether one had more success than another could be attributed to slower/less powerful heroes, no?

For example, Sephiroth and Ultimecia both failed in their objectives outright, Kefka succeeded (though he obviously ultimately failed.) But that doesn't necessarily mean Kefka's more powerful than the other two, the heroes simply couldn't get to him in time. Had Meteor hit, it would have done a lot more damage to the planet than Kefka did. And if Ultimecia had succeeded...well that woulda been it.

More on topic, Kitase may be limiting himself by saying they can't make anything more powerful than Sephiroth, but it would be kinda dumb if they did. Talk about Masamune's "badass decay," we've spent all this time worried about him and suddenly someone comes along who's stronger?

 

[curiousACfan]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

So, here's an update on my search, guys. It's taken a good while, but I finally found a Japanese site with a claim that the staff commentary features a quote to the effect we were looking for:

http://moggy.blog4.fc2.com/blog-entry-213.html

About a quarter from the bottom of the page, there's this:

"?????????????????????????????????????

??????????????????????????"

That part in the direct quote brackets basically reads "In VII, a stronger enemy than Sephiroth can't be made," with the staff of AC credited for the quote.

That webpage is basically a summary and review of the movie, with a few quotes from the AC commentary itself sprinkled throughout. I'm assuming this statement about Sephiroth is meant to be a direct quote as well.

In any case, even if it's a paraphrasing put into quotes, this is still an actual Japanese source using "??" (kyouteki) -- specifically meaning "stronger/more formidable enemy" -- rather than just "??" (ijou; "above&quot as was the case with the other Japanese website linked earlier.

In other words, this gives a specific context to "above" -- strength -- and coming from a Japanese source, concerns about misinterpretation of "above" are certainly diminished.

So, with that discovered, ximaus and I both believe that the Nomura quote exists. The claim that Nomura said there can't be a stronger enemy than Sephiroth in FFVII is apparently true.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well that's a great find, thanks for clarifying the context of what he said

 

[curiousACfan]

Re: "There is nothing stronger than Sephiroth, nothing above him" ... Is this re

No problem. I'd still like to have the entire commentary to pick through, but I don't have a DVD player that could play Japanese DVDs.

Still, this was enough to convince me that the quote exists, and that's all I really wanted to find. Hope it's of use to you guys too.

 

[Strangelove]

I do have the whole audio of the commentary ripped as series of MP3s, but the hard drive they're on hasn't been working lately