Tifa's role in Remake

[frosty]

So far, theorycrafters focus on what might and would happen with Zack and Aerith, and the fuck is Sephiroth planning and doing; I get why Tifa is left. This thread could be the place to discuss as why the title is picked but personally, I dont think we get something new or different in Tifa's role from OG to Remake. There's no mystery around Tifa that could make us wildly imagine as Kitase want us, that's why it's less interesting to DISCUSS, unless you can offer something fresh about her in REBIRTH

I feel the same. When I was very young and first played FF7 - she was my favourite character because it was rare back then to have a female character who was a monk class and not a standard healer / princess / magical girl at the top of the tower to save. Aerith filled the role of the mysterious magical girl, and Tifa was Cloud's mental support. Fast forward Advent Children? Fine, she's yet again relegated as beautiful, badass woman who punches things, but again, her role = catalyst for Cloud to get over his shit.

In Remake & ToTP they expanded her personality and contributed to some of her back lore, but has her ROLE expanded beyond "catalyst for Cloud to get over his shit" - not...at all. I don't like Aerith's personality, but her role has become largely more interesting - can she see the future? What will her show down with Sephiroth like? Will her fate change? Will she reunite with Zack? That fuels the anticipation for FF7R2.

Again, LTD aside, there is the irrational part of the fans who...will not allow discourse on the matter above. If you so much whisper to say that - well, there's nothing much to look forward to her role besides existing OG scenes being done in 4K, and that frankly, over the years, she hasn't gotten that much more interesting- you're a hater? They print screen Ultimanias where she's listed as "Heroine"? They say you dislike her cos of internalised misogyny cos she's hot?

wokayyy.

 

[Odysseus]

To be fair, you can probably expect more out of Tifa and all the characters just by way of how rebirth will probably be structured compared to the original. I'm assuming cutscenes will no longer be variable in which characters are present, so everyone will have more than stock dialogue to pull from now.

I really have no guesses as to if and how her role could be expanded specifically. In the original she is very attached to Cloud at the hip as far as character development and story goes, and that's not likely to change. Aerith is easier to guess at because she has prominent connections to other aspects of the story, like the lifestream, Sephiroth, Zack, her seeming future knowledge, etc. And like Frosty said, discussing this shit sucks because everyone raises their defenses. What I said could be taken to mean Aerith is more important (not what I'm saying) and I'd be ground to dust for that elsewhere. The only thing that's ever made me not like Tifa (and Aerith for that matter) is her shitty, insufferable fans. They've made the poor girl radioactive. Touching her is a death sentence unless you walk on eggshells. It's like the worst kind of parasocial relationship except the other person isn't even real.

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

One thing that's weird to me is the idea that encountering the rabid side of the shipping war is inevitable. I'll be honest, when I first played the OG as a dumb teen, I was full on "Tifa is da best! Aerith suxx lolol XD random", but back then (like, 2006-8 was when I was active in fandom?) There just wasn't the weird aggressive vitriol? No one was saying dokidoki at me (like I still only vaguely understand what this refers to) and I wasn't shoving the absolute proof of CloTi at anyone who said otherwise either. Fast forward over 10 years, I get back into the fandom, and I still don't really encounter this stuff except when people refer to it on here. There's this whole weird war happening over there somewhere but it is possible to enjoy the fandom, including the shipping side of it, and not actually engage with that shit, or even encounter it much you know?

I guess it's different for TH and Ody cos they have their translation work and need to get it out to an audience, which means publicity, which invites the crazies, but if you aren't in that situation, maybe just keep it to circles that aren't insane. Utilise the block button. Curate your feed. Keep it to people who aren't brain rotted. Idk.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I hope this gets resolved, I find Eerie to be a valuable forum member too, and someone who's been nothing but kind to me. It is appreciated and I do remember it. Of course the others mentioned here are also important, translators etc. I just wanted to add a bit, and I don't think being a shipper necessarily lessens someone. Shippers are people too, and can also contribute a lot, fanfic, art, video edits, etc. Well I have no beef with anyone involved and I hope people can resolve their differences, and not alwayss hold being shippers and non shippers against each other.

Spoiler

 

[eleamaya]

Btw, lemme drop it here:
Tifa's heroine role is very intimate. Intimate is mature theme. And if people didnt get it, they're immature.
I think most people here have acknowledged her role regardless their preference of shipping. Preference =/= canon.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Aerith gets to be the one who saves the planet, Tifa gets to be the one who saves the MC and ends up with him. I’d say that’s a fair enough trade ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Tifa's OG design was intended as fanservice. She gets singled out because her attractiveness is called out both in-game and in the official guide books, far more so than any other character. Shippers who like to exploit this fact aside, I don't see how this is a sexist or even controversial take. It's literally the truth.

Does any other character have commentary comparable to "her stretching pose might make one need to avert their eyes"? Or "her short-cut tank top and miniskirt make for quite a revealing outfit"? Or "the staff resoundingly preferred the miniskirt"? Or "her impressive proportions become apparent in the cutscenes with realistic models?" I don't know, maybe the Honeybee Inn staff have profiles?

Please don't die on this hill Eerie. Neither Odysseus nor TurquoiseHammer deserve this degree of spicy. And they both contribute a lot to the fandom.

All I know is I’m sure there was an artistic reason for taking the time to animate jiggle physics into the FMV from the OG where Tifa falls on the deck of the Highwind after the Weapons are released at the Northern Crater.

It’s such a serious moment in the story and I expect SE to be faithful to the gravity of that scene in the remake by keeping those jiggle physics in. I will be paying close attention and watching very intently.

For research purposes, of course.

No one was saying dokidoki at me (like I still only vaguely understand what this refers to)

“Doki doki”, Japanese term describing the sound effect for heart beating. Used in a guidebook to describe Cloud’s feeling towards Aerith during the date leading up to Wall Market. It blew up and became a calling card of sorts among Cleriths, and sparked lots of debate about Cloud falling for Aerith in that moment. Then later it came out that in the asset files of the remake, Cloud has some facial animations labeled “DokiDokiTifa”, which predictably ignited the backlash towards the people using “doki doki” as some kind of evidence.

There's this whole weird war happening over there somewhere but it is possible to enjoy the fandom, including the shipping side of it, and not actually engage with that shit, or even encounter it much you know?

We’re talking about a fanbase in which a grown-ass man with children devotes his time to obsessively spamming SE social media accounts and arguing with fans to elevate a ship involving a side character with minimal involvement in the plot and unironically arguing stuff like this:




Shipping is a hell of a drug.

 

[frosty]

It’s such a serious moment in the story and I expect SE to be faithful to the gravity of that scene in the remake by keeping those jiggle physics in. I will be paying close attention and watching very intently.

The Square Enix ethics team who wasn't hired yet in 1997 begs to differ lol

We’re talking about a fanbase in which a grown-ass man with children devotes his time to obsessively spamming SE social media accounts and arguing with fans to elevate a ship involving a side character with minimal involvement in the plot and unironically arguing stuff like this

It's kinda funny Jai, uh, that poster Axelfirestorm says no other FF7 girl can get attention when Tifa is around. It's almost as if, Tifa has the sole agency to remove herself and to not suffocate Jessie? Like, is he hoping he can bully Tifa into quitting FF7 and to negotiate an early release contract to defer to her co-stars or something? idk. Damn you, Tifa, for inserting yourself into the SE annual report and manipulating your way into top merchandise sales for 2 consecutive years. You should be fired for your actions.

 

[Odysseus]

A Jairus by any other name is still toxic

 

[eleamaya]

Yeah, he should disguise himself at least by mentioning Yuffie name, too,. He really doesnt hide himself.

 

[Edley]

Tifa should be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine.

There is no logical reason for Tifa's role to change. Sephiroth would very much like to win this time, Aerith is opening wormholes and defying fate, and Zack is alive-ish somewhere or when. Cloud could explicitly reject or declare his love for Tifa in Rebirth (he won't) and it would still not change her role.

@Odysseus I've been enjoying your translations on twitter.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The Square Enix ethics team who wasn't hired yet in 1997 begs to differ lol


It's kinda funny Jai, uh, that poster Axelfirestorm says no other FF7 girl can get attention when Tifa is around. It's almost as if, Tifa has the sole agency to remove herself and to not suffocate Jessie? Like, is he hoping he can bully Tifa into quitting FF7 and to negotiate an early release contract to defer to her co-stars or something? idk. Damn you, Tifa, for inserting yourself into the SE annual report and manipulating your way into top merchandise sales for 2 consecutive years. You should be fired for your actions.

He basically wants Tifa’s role in the story to go to Jessie. It’s as if he knows that Jessie will never have what Tifa has with Cloud, and he’s obsessed with the idea of a “Jessie route” just so he can pretend Cloud and Jessie are something they’re not. But let’s face it, Jessie will never be as important to FF7 as he wants her to be.

FF7 isn’t a dating sim and Tifa’s role in the story is non-negotiable. And so he accuses the devs of being too “afraid” to change up the story and give Jessie more prominence. Yeah right, the devs that changed Zack’s fate are too afraid to go outside the box. Sure, dude. He wants the story to change, but only in a way that pleases him. He may pretend he wants Tifa, Aerith, and Jessie to have an equally viable ship, but guaranteed he’d have no issue if Tifa and Aerith were sidelined in favor of Jessie.

Cloud’s feelings for Tifa set his entire involvement in the crisis of the planet in motion. Technically, the devs could change up Tifa and Jessie however they want to, they’re not real after all. But at the end of the day, it’s their story. Whoever can’t come to terms with that should find comfort in writing crappy fanfiction and just get over it.

 

[villains23]

I hate to say it, but they almost certainly did have fanservice in mind when they gave Tifa improbably large breasts.

Has it ever been confirmed Aerith and Tifa's physical designs were made to contrast one another? I'd say it does, but I don't know if it's ever been officially stated. Their personalities have been officially stated to contrast with their physical design. I believe it's a way for the devs to subvert expectations with these two heroines.

"Q: How did you establish each character’s personality?
A: We were given a general sense of each character by Nomura, who did the character design, and then wrote the events and dialogue accordingly. With Tifa and Aerith, we tried to juxtapose their personalities with their appearances. Tifa might look like the peppy one, but it’s actually Aerith who rallies the party and gets things done."

All I know is I’m sure there was an artistic reason for taking the time to animate jiggle physics into the FMV from the OG where Tifa falls on the deck of the Highwind after the Weapons are released at the Northern Crater.

I agree it's a bit of fanservice, but not entirely (lol). There's at least a bit of narrative integrity to that scene. It shows Tifa being KO'd, which segues into the flashback of how she found Cloud. It also explains why she's in a coma when she awakens in Junon. So there's SOME narrative purpose there (lol).

 

[KindOfBlue]

Has it ever been confirmed Aerith and Tifa's physical designs were made to contrast one another? I'd say it does, but I don't know if it's ever been officially stated. Their personalities have been officially stated to contrast with their physical design. I believe it's a way for the devs to subvert expectations with these two heroines.

"Q: How did you establish each character’s personality?
A: We were given a general sense of each character by Nomura, who did the character design, and then wrote the events and dialogue accordingly. With Tifa and Aerith, we tried to juxtapose their personalities with their appearances. Tifa might look like the peppy one, but it’s actually Aerith who rallies the party and gets things done."


I agree it's a bit of fanservice, but not entirely (lol). There's at least a bit of narrative integrity to that scene. It shows Tifa being KO'd, which segues into the flashback of how she found Cloud. It also explains why she's in a coma when she awakens in Junon. So there's SOME narrative purpose there (lol).

The scene as a whole is great, it’s one of the most dramatic scenes in the game. It’s the fanservice in that moment that I found bizarre, especially for how grim that scene is otherwise. Not that I have a problem with fanservice in general, but my small brain had a quite an interesting time processing the gravity of that scene when my eyes were suddenly met with BOI-OI-OI-OI-OI-OING…!!

 

[Kain424]

Far be it from me to be an authority on this annoying matter, but I think a good deal of the frustration lies within the "milquetoast" opinion itself and its function in the whole argument.



But you see, someone can have devoted their mindset to the canonicity of events. Really thought about the narrative's use of Tifa as not only "the girl next door", but also as "the answer was right in front of you all along" kind of thing. They see this one way. I've tried to visually illustrate this here. See, it doesn't feel like a middle of the road opinion, though I agree that was likely the intent. It feels like they have dragged the mark away from Cloud's feelings leaning toward Tifa back towards Aerith.

So while I agree with the sentiment it is ultimately a harlmess opinion, I think people are missing how it feels to someone to whom they've devoted their thoughts and emotions to this... uh, thing.

 

[Odysseus]

Obviously things can change in 26 years, but at the very least back in '97 the intent was very much to leave it up to the player's own preferences



and while it's obvious Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other have been made very explicit by now and play an important role in their character motivations, I don't think this design philosophy will ever be completely swept aside. The warring factions of shippers prove that the players still have their preferences, and I doubt Nomura is unaware of this, so both groups will most likely be serviced in ways that Nomura and co. deem satisfactory. You already have Cloud saying "don't I get a say in this" when Aerith tells him not to fall in love with her, for example.

That's what we mean by a lack of "explicit confirmation". Cloud and Tifa could have extremely intimate scenes in the future, but I'm sure they'll be as optional as ever, and Aerith will have something to match. That's just how these character dynamics were designed. You can keep up the LTD pissing match until you die, but it's not gonna move past this point I'm nigh certain. Fuckin' quote me in 100 years when part 3 comes if I'm wrong, I'll concede then.

 

[KindOfBlue]

By “system that reflects the player’s feelings”, they’re referring to the affection mechanics, right? It’s a “fun” (I hate it) way to let the player’s feelings be reflected in-game but it’s not as if the Gold Saucer date changes the trajectory of the story itself. Nomura even says “it’s not that there are branching paths.”

I guess we have different ideas of what constitutes “explicit confirmation” but Cloud & Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings in the Lifestream in a non-optional scene AND no such scene between Cloud & Aerith exists to match that so…how exactly does Aerith have a viable way to “win” after her death without ignoring what happens in the story with Tifa?

The most explicit thing that could be done in Aerith’s favor is have Cloud reject Tifa and eternally pine for Aerith, which is how many interpret Advent Children despite it not actually being the case.

I think the scene under the Highwind would’ve been the ideal moment in-game to have Cloud turn down Tifa for Aerith, and at that point, THEN I’d say it’d definitely be up to the player. But even at low affection with Tifa, they still cuddle up and spend the night together, just without implied sexy time.

 

[Kain424]

Yeah, I'm not here to fuss about that. Not my cup of tea to dive into that. I'm just trying to make it a bit more clear as to why a person of the cloti persuasion would be set off.

 

[cold_spirit]

I used to use Twitter. However, when the algorithm discovered that I like FFVII, all I got was LTD discourse. It didn't matter what words I muted or accounts I blocked, it just kept seeping through. That's how potent it is.

I genuinely think that FFVII shipping should be academically studied. There must be something missing in modern society to make people act so fucking weird.

I really shouldn't do this... but here I go anyway. Today I will share my shipping stance. Who Cloud likes during the events of FFVII is up to each individual player. It's literally a mechanic coded into the game.

If the player wishes it, Cloud can go on a date with Barret and not sleep with Tifa under the Highwind. Neither contradict his boyhood feelings for Tifa or his eventual chosen family in Advent Children.

If the player wishes it, Cloud can go on a date with Aerith and sleep with Tifa under the Highwind. Neither contradict his boyhood feelings for Tifa or his eventual chosen family in Advent Children.

All is valid because that's what the story allows. The developers didn't implement other romance options to trick players. I wouldn't even say they're coy about it. They very clearly want to leave this aspect of Cloud's character up to each person.

And that should be fine. Video games are the perfect media for this sort of thing. Admittedly, love triangles with two women and one man are inherently problematic in this day and age, which causes me to place part of the blame on the developers, but it shouldn't invite this level of vitriol amongst fans. It's pathetic.

 

[frosty]

You can flirt with Lulu and Rikku, and even Wakka by covering them, talking to them first, choosing the right dialogue. This results in up to 4 different cut scenes featuring the person you preferred. This is a mechanic to reflect who you like, and your choices

You cannot, due to story reasons, NOT fall in love with Yuna.

FF7 is not the Witcher 3 or Persona 5 with branching storylines that change with the woman you choose, and you have to clearly make choices to reject one to be with the other.

That's what I take from the Nomura interview.

Tifa and Cloud having kids together is already whole non-optional movie...if we're saying Aerith and Cloud will have an optional implied sex scene so that there is "no confirmation" and equal for either side...idk y'all. With Zack back, that is about as probable as Yuna floating around with Brother in a lake

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuckin' quote me in 100 years when part 3 comes if I'm wrong, I'll concede then.

Oh, I most certainly will.

I guess we have different ideas of what constitutes “explicit confirmation” but Cloud & Tifa confirm mutual romantic feelings in the Lifestream in a non-optional scene AND no such scene between Cloud & Aerith exists to match that so…how exactly does Aerith have a viable way to “win” after her death without ignoring what happens in the story with Tifa?

This is how I personally feel as well, however the fact remains that in terms of other couples... Cloud and Tifa are far more shy than the rest. For whatever reason, we have yet to see a kiss, casual handhold or anything that you'd usually expect. Granted, Cloud and Tifa have shared intimate moments but ironically not the typical couple type experiences one would like to see.

I chalk this up as a testament to their characters (they're both bottoms lol) and the writers purposefully being coy. Although the Remake has changed this dynamic somewhat but we will see just how far it goes.

I genuinely think that FFVII shipping should be academically studied. There must be something missing in modern society to make people act so fucking weird.

I don't really think it's that unusual. Maybe it's unusual for FF fandom but pop your head into any anime with a LTD and it's just as bad, lol

With the Advent of social media, I will say the battle ground has gotten pretty savage. So I'm not surprised it seems worst, to some. That's just par for course though.

FFVII implementing such LTD mechanics typical of anime romances gives this FF title a unique dynamic that also sets it apart from other FF titles. People love rooting for a particular character, especially when it comes to romance so it's unsurprising that it can turn tribal and even nasty.

 

[KindOfBlue]

All is valid because that's what the story allows. The developers didn't implement other romance options to trick players. I wouldn't even say they're coy about it. They very clearly want to leave this aspect of Cloud's character up to each person.

I think the problem though is that the mechanic doesn’t actually change how Cloud feels about each character. The events that transpire between the characters vary, but Cloud’s feelings don’t.

Case in point, let’s say I want Cloud and Aerith to be canon. The obvious obstacle is her death, but we could try to say that he’s fallen for her and hopes to reunite with her in death.

Now, it’s not that one couldn’t just headcanon that scenario. It’s just there’s no way for the game to reflect this sentiment without the player ignoring what actually happens in-game. There is no way to not have Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings together, and there’s no way to have Cloud choose Aerith over Tifa regardless of who Cloud goes on the Gold Saucer date with.

The Witcher 3 is probably the best example of what people think FF7 is, but it isn’t. Maybe the remake could be?

God, I hope not. Let this monster die already.

casual handhold

Woah there, now that’s just too lewd…

 

[Ryeleigh]

Not to, like, stir a hornet's nest(?) but I think the problem here was:

1) The LTD (or FFVII) isn't about preference.
2) Cloti has been confirmed plenty. I mean, they are about as "explicit" as any shounen couple but it's not like anyone's arguing that those didn't happen? So why this demand of "explicitness" for Cloti?
3) There are no romantic resolutions for anyone but Cloud and Tifa (and arguably Zack and Aerith at the end of ACC) whether you get the "low affection" or "high affection" Highwind scene, unlike in other games where this is an actual thing (FE, DA, ME, BG, TW etc.)
4) Even if you don't personally care about romance in FFVII, romance is still very much a part of Cloud and Tifa's character arcs. It is what sets him on his journey. It's also what resolves his problems.

So I can see why it would get tiring for Cloti shippers to argue these same points over and over again. My (unasked) two cents.

 

[BioTeach]

I think the whole illusion of choice in the OG was a very poor idea and not well thought out for the long haul. In their defense though, I doubt they had any idea that the game would continue to thrive for anther 25 years. With no plans for a compilation in mind, the future of the characters and their story was probably not all that important (romance-wise) so it wasn't a big deal whether people preferred one girl or the other. Of course now with the compilation, they have gone to great lengths (in my opinion) to confirm canon pairs (CT and ZA). I don't consider myself a shipper, but I see CT and ZA as the canon ships. And I would think that with Zack now taking a larger role in the story, both with the resurrection of CC and in some capacity in the Remake trilogy, his presence should be the final nail in the coffin for Clerith.

Also, not to be a party pooper, but this thread has seemed to derail into LTD territory, which is far from its intended purpose to discuss Remake Tifa. Maybe further discussion should be shifted to one of the designated LTD threads?

 

[frosty]

Also, not to be a party pooper, but this thread has seemed to derail into LTD territory, which is far from its intended purpose to discuss Remake Tifa. Maybe further discussion should be shifted to one of the designated LTD threads?

And herein lies the issue with Tifa throughout the compilation - it's literally impossible to talk about her role without talking about her relationship to Cloud. And...unfortunately not that much else.

And when the word "relationship" + "Cloud" comes up, inadvertantly Aerith will be referenced, and here we end up.

I've thought about the potential plot threads that could surround Tifa in Remake - anything mysterious that perhaps that we haven't already seen in OG - but I ain't got anything besides the fact maybe she'll "fake die" , the way Barret fake died.

 

[Odysseus]

There's a reason I've come to consider the ff7 girls radioactive. Any discussion of them gets you here, especially since being a big Tifa fan usually comes with being a Cloti (at least Aerith also has Zack to dilute the pool lol).

I guess one thing I've been wondering about is that line from the Rebirth trailer where she gets aggictated that Cloud thought she had died. I wonder if that's a seed of her doubt in Cloud's recollection being played up more earlier on.