Timeline makes no sense in some places

[Makoeyes987]

The dates of the Nibelheim Incident are the least strange of the dated moments of the FFVII Timeline. The amount of time necessary to hike Mount Nibel to the Nibel Reactor is left vague, along with the exact time frame of events such as hiking that whole mountain, returning to the village, and what was specifically done between 9/22 and October 1st. Zack had time to not just be in Nibelheim, but also explore it and actually have some down time with Cloud and the locals there. That's nothing unusual at all.

The real oddities of the timeline are some of the ages of characters and speed of world defining events. Tseng the Vampire Turk, the incredible construction of Midgar in 30 years, the total conquest of global government and monopoly of power accomplished by Shinra in as little as 20 years. These things happen in such short, rapid-fire order, one has to wonder just what the hell the world of FFVII was even like before Shinra established themselves. The world must have been extremely small and underdeveloped to have such a vacuum Shinra could fill so easily. Only Wutai's established and developed civilization put forth real opposition to Shinra and showed a true government at odds with Shinra. That's shocking. And the sheer industrial revolution necessary to construct a fantastic city like Midgar with the technology demonstrated by this corporation is phenomenal.

....Almost as if there would have to be an otherworldly element at play to allow for such rapid technological prowess and development. But honestly, the timeline of FFVII is not that unusual for an extended universe canon. It's mostly consistent and laid out understandably. It has some weird contractions and distortions regarding character ages and appearances, but aside from that, nothing completely contradicts itself on it's face. Resident Evil's timeline is pretty consistent.... Save for the fact certain important events are just left completely up in the air and undetermined due to the nature of it's branching storyline paths and scenarios. That timeline is bizarre because Capcom purposefully leaves how the Mansion Incident and Raccoon City escape for it's main characters happened wholly up to you and your gameplay/story. Certain events are completely contradictory and opposite, yet they exist simultaneously in a nebula of ambiguity.

As for Before Crisis.... Before Crisis's telling of certain events, such as the Nibelheim Incident, are completely irrelevant because it's not ever referenced or referred to as the de-facto version of that scenario. Neither is Last Order. However, the events unique to BC which specify it's unique story and place are real and relevant. Crisis Core's telling of key events, like the Nibelheim Incident hold salience only in the fact that it is the most recent telling of said event at present, and it's mostly the same as FFVII's save for Zack's knowledge of events that happened only he could know. Those minute specificities however are irrelevant to the main unfolding of the key events of that incident. And once the Remake gets to that part of the story, it's telling will more than likely be the new canon telling of that event, at least in reference to Cloud and the story. The miniscule portions unique to CC are specific to CC, and hold no real meaning or importance to FFVII, unless one is trying to parse specifics like, what did Genesis hope to accomplish there and/or if he had any hand in Sephiroth turning his back on humanity. Which, isn't that big of a deal since everyone Sephiroth knew as a friend probably had some hand in Sephiroth making the choice to throw his humanity away. Sephiroth was influenced by everyone he knew, good and bad. How they all played a role in him becoming a monster is worthy of discussion, regardless of if it happened in the Nibel Reactor or not.

 

[Odysseus]

I've always thought that FF7's setting really does not hold up to scrutiny. Like Mako said, there is almost no picture of what the world was like before Shinra. No evidence of government systems besides Wutai existing before Shinra came to power, with the fact that "Mayor" of midgar being technically seperate from Shinra itself as the only indication that there ever was a government besides Shinra. It also seems like technology just didn't exist or was very rudimentary before Shinra, since all of the towns we see that aren't Shinra installations are just small German-style towns that were retrofitted to use mako. There's the idea that Midgar used to be a bunch of smaller towns, but nobody remembers their names anymore... but Midgar is only 30 years old, that's still well within living memory, and the remake removed that detail anyway.

I also have to question how big the planet is supposed to be. On one hand, it apparently took Zack months to get from Nibelheim to midgar, but on the other hand it's only a short boat ride from Midgar to the forgotten city, or a short helicopter ride from Midgar to Mideel according to that new short story. None of this stuff was really an issue in the original since you could just use your imagination to fill on gaps and assume there are other places the party just never goes to, but I feel like the compilation really dropped the ball on expanding on any of this information, just reusing the same locations from the original mostly. I've been hoping the remake might make things make more sense.

 

[Clement Rage]

What new short story?

There's a difference between 'a lot of stuff we don't know' and 'not holding up to scrutiny'. We're dropped in the middle of an ongoing story, of course we don't get told everything.

An entirely realistic world is too complicated to understand, never mind write, so we just get the relevant stuff. It's like people complaining about LOVELESS or Lucrecia's thesis not being realistic, when what we're actually getting are short extracts of what are in universe 200 page books.

Travel times are flexible anyway, based on what gear you have, whether you know where to go or whether you have to hide. Zack has to do things like swim rivers while carrying an unconcious person and all his gear.

Judging non earth societies by earth standards don't account for the different history that this planet would have. What were the long term consequences of the meteor a mere 2,000 years go and such.

Generally, I found that a lot of small fortified towns make a lot of sense. Travel is difficult because of potential monster attacks. I assumedd 'no one remembers their names' was speaking figuratively, not literal truth.

NIbelheim is very pragmatically written.

Originally, no one but Cloud had to witness Sephy's fall, so it could be in a separate room.

Then a Turk had to witness it, but if she witnessed the Fall, she couldn't see anything else, so they moved it further in. Then Zack had to witness stuff too, so they moved it closer to him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What new short story?

The one in the FFVIIR World Preview book.

 

[Odysseus]

What new short story?

The short story that was included in the world preview book. Part of the story is that a shinra taskforce is created to go hunting for landscapes that resemble drawings Aerith provides for them. At one point one of the members of the group is supposed to fly to Cosmo Canyon, but instead bribes the pilot to take him to mideel instead because he receives a secret drawing from Aerith. The fact he goes to the complete opposite end of the world from where he's supposed to is just hand waved made me really wonder how long these flights take. It's not like helicopters are globe trotting vehicles in reality anyway. How big is the planet?

An entirely realistic world is too complicated to understand, never mind write, so we just get the relevant stuff. It's like people complaining about LOVELESS or Lucrecia's thesis not being realistic, when what we're actually getting are short extracts of what are in universe 200 page books.

This is what I'm getting at. In the original it didn't really matter, you could just assume there are more towns and cities than the party ever visits, and that the shrunken scale of the world is just like that for the sake of not weighing down the plot and gameplay. Once you get to the extended material though things start to get more questionable. Outside of an abandoned town in the north, a shinra mountain resort, a secret underground city, and Genesis' destroyed hometown, the compilation mostly just still uses the same locations as the original without adding new ones. It makes you wonder if there's just Kalm and a chocobo farm and that's all that exists on the entire northern region of the continent, is fort condor the only place in the south? How big are these landmasses actually supposed to be if we're to assume Cloud and co walked across them on foot the entire time without any towns to stop at besides the ones we see in the game? How are people getting to gold saucer if there aren't airports and the only entry point is in a dilapidated, run down mountain town? If monsters make travel so difficult that civilization can barely exist, then how dies a giant resort even exist? Are there even roads in the first place? No depiction of Midgar has ever shown highways leading down to the surface from the upper plate, and seemingly the only way to get past the mountain range that divides that continent is to go through a dangerous abandoned mine.

I know I'm being nitpicky as hell here, but I really started to wonder after a while. How does this world even function? How is shinra profiting enough from this handful of podunk towns to keep their megacity running? How did a cyber punk dystopian hell city even pop up in the middle of such an undeveloped world anyway? Absolutely none of this matters in the context of the original. FFVII is very pragmatic in its storytelling, it only shows you what you need to see, the rest doesn't matter. It's the fact the compilation doesn't expand on it much that makes you wonder "is that really all there is to this world? Nothing else exists?" The world feels strangely empty. In dirge, thousands of people just get disappeared by the Tsviets, and I can't help but think "that many people exist on this planet? Where?" Admittedly the Remake's more densely packed midgar makes that one easier to swallow. I could probably go on about stuff like this forever because I find it fun, like how old is shinra anyway? The Turks and their Jenova experiment predate Midgar by years apparently, so where were they based before that? But I think you get the point. I know these questions don't need answers and it doesn't really matter, but it's something to think about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only logical conclusion is that the world of FFVII was at an extremely low level of industrial and societal development save for communities like Wutai, at least in reference to the world's current state in FFVII. Most societies of the world were seemingly functioning at pre-industrial levels when compared to our own or FFVII's current state, with limited resource production due to the very basic levels of technology. The Cetra were more than likely the most advanced and culturally relevant inhabitants of the planet given their legendary status and exploits being known by others across the globe, at one time. The Cetra lived communally and nomadically, while other normal human communities lived in parochial societies with limited resources, limited means of travel, and very simplistic markets and government. There was obviously some form of capitalism and markets, and they clearly all had some sort of social stratifications and hierarchies.

What seemingly happened, was that with the discovery and establishment of mako energy, Shinra literally fast forwarded almost the entire human race through not just an industrial revolution, but a cultural one, which allowed Shinra to imprint their own values and beliefs upon the populace at large. They essentially became the Daddy of the still young and developing population, and because of the isolated and mostly naïve population, they readily accepted Shinra's provided convenience, their overall might and most importantly, their technological superiority. By the time Shinra emerged, the Cetra had been dead for a long time, and since they were the primary wielders of magic who paradoxically lived modestly in devotion to stewarding the planet, their exploits and magical prowess fell into the dustbin of history, becoming just fairy tales and lost legends. Whatever they had taught or passed down to others became lost to society. Shinra took up the mantle of being the planet's and humanity's stewards with their seemingly magical, and revolutionary power, and wielded such power and influence, no one saw them as a threat or worth fighting, except the society that had flourished and established their own societal path. Wutai. Wutai refused to just give into Shinra because they had their own sovereignty and they were brought to heel.

Again, such massive, rapid and breathtaking societal progress in the span of less than a century would make one believe that some sort of otherworldly power or technology was at work here. The rapid development of FFVII's world did not happen naturally, at least in the sense of progressing at a natural scale. It ascended extremely fast, which probably explains why the world ended up so fucking screwed up and within the clutches of a corprofascist regime. The world, the general population simply didn't have a wide enough frame of reference to fully realize what was happening to them.

It makes you wonder if there's just Kalm and a chocobo farm and that's all that exists on the entire northern region of the continent, is fort condor the only place in the south? How big are these landmasses actually supposed to be if we're to assume Cloud and co walked across them on foot the entire time without any towns to stop at besides the ones we see in the game? How are people getting to gold saucer if there aren't airports and the only entry point is in a dilapidated, run down mountain town? If monsters make travel so difficult that civilization can barely exist, then how dies a giant resort even exist? Are there even roads in the first place? No depiction of Midgar has ever shown highways leading down to the surface from the upper plate, and seemingly the only way to get past the mountain range that divides that continent is to go through a dangerous abandoned mine.

Healen Lodge also existed, which was a cliff resort area for well-to-do individuals to spend their vacation. There's clearly more to the landscape and civilization of FFVII's world, but the presence of monsters along with scattershot population densities, made most societies isolated. Roads exist but there aren't very many because as explained in "The Kids Are Alright" no one was around to protect the roads from monsters, and they could easily be destroyed. Shinra only made roads where they needed them to be, and there was no government to make roads everywhere for societal benefit.

The Gold Saucer was constructed via Shinra, and we know air travel was and still is, severally limited. Most travel is done by road, boat or chocobo. And Costa Del Sol becoming a resort town easily could have happened upon the Mako Industrial Revolution that occurred thanks to Shinra. Since leisure travel became an industry thanks to increased disposable income within the masses, a new market emerged, which allowed Costa Del Sol to exist.

Midgar is actually shown having highways that lead up and down Midgar, btw. They have highways and signs which show that road travel is possible. However, where those roads end and all is unknown. We see the tunnels but we don't see where they actually end.

Like I said, the world of FFVII is extremely young, in terms of civilization evolution and growth. Shinra juiced it's growth but it still has a lot of maturing to do.

 

[Odysseus]

Healen Lodge also existed, which was a cliff resort area for well-to-do individuals to spend their vacation.

Outside of an abandoned town in the north, a shinra mountain resort, a secret underground city, and Genesis' destroyed hometown

I always liked to imagine it was on that big, pointless hill you could walk up that's between the farm and kalm.

Midgar is actually shown having highways that lead up and down Midgar, btw. They have highways and signs which show that road travel is possible. However, where those roads end and all is unknown. We see the tunnels but we don't see where they actually end.

I remember that in the reveal trailer now that you mention it. I don't think you can see any of those roads on the actual render of Midgar though. If you can actually walk around outside Midgar in part 2 of the remake I guess that would be the time to show off that sort of thing.

Anyway, the advent of mako rapidly advancing technology, thus leading to the disparity between Shinra towns like Midgar and Junon compared to the rest of the world is as good an explanation as we'll get probably. I just have to wonder how that science was developed so quickly, but then I suppose that's what Gast and Hojo were there for.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Mako technology doesn't advanced society as much as you're making out, at least, not technologically. In Case of Barret, we find out that Barret worked in coal mines and is familiar with coal power plants and also that oil was a known source of fuel before mako power came to prominence. It's just that mako seems to be so much easier to to get and refine that makes people want to switch to it. However... the technology we see in Midgar isn't too far advanced from the present day where we do have coal power plants and oil-based fuels, especially in the OG. Or rather, it's not mind-blowingly different

Which kinda suggests that what came before Shinra was... not that much different from what came after, at least, socially. We should be seeing signs of oil/coal power companies and some kind of government system that would have had to deal with those. Especially in Corel. But we we don't. Who was Corel mining coal for? IDK! But it probably wasn't Shinra as Shinra are the new kids in Corel who are moving it off of coal and onto something else.

There very much is a void of world-building in FFVII. We know nothing of what came before Shinra. It's like it sprang up out of nowhere. It's recent enough that we should be seeing signs of what came before it, but we never do. Which... might have been more acceptable if Shinra had been around longer as the monolithic company (empire) it now is. But... it's not been around that long. So where is all the stuff about what life was like before Shinra? Wutai is the only contry we see, but there should be more contries. We know there was some kind of war, since Shinra is said to be a weapons manufacturer before it got into the energy buisness but... who was buying weapons from Shinra that it became so huge?

It's the kind of thing that really shows what era of gaming FFVII came out of. Not going into the backstory of how the world got the way it is worked for the earlier FF games a lot of the time. And you can see that kind of logic applied to FFVII. But once you get to oh... FFVIII... how the world got to be the way it is starts becoming more and more important to the plot in a bigger way. I find it really funny (and a bit telling) that I feel like I know more about the history of the world of FFVIII than the history of the world of FFVII. And yeah... it's more than a little werid that the Compilation doesn't go into this kind of thing more. That would have been the perfect time to do it, and no one ever does it. I'm almost convinced no one on the story team ever thought out "how did Shinra get to be so huge" when they came up with the idea of it... so no one has ever brought it up in-game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well... The writers sorta did come up with how Shinra got to be so huge but... Not everyone really believes it.

Even when the answer is staring straight at them through it's gasmasked covered face.

 

[Odysseus]

Well... The writers sorta did come up with how Shinra got to be so huge but... Not everyone really believes it.

Even when the answer is staring straight at them through it's gasmasked covered face.

Spoiler

 

[looneymoon]

The way the characters are pretty cartoonish, the world building follows a similar level of exaggeration.

's fine I think. not everything has to be Tolkien.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

That is what I mean... in the OG, it's so obviously anime that not having a realistic history isn't a huge issue.

But as the graphics and series have gotten more realistic and expansive... it now fees odd. Like there should be more to find and there just isn't.

 

[Odysseus]

^Yeah that. That's why I'm hoping the remake adds some meat to the bones of FFVII's world. It was fine when everyone was legos, but it just feels kind of off now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well... The writers sorta did come up with how Shinra got to be so huge but... Not everyone really believes it.

Even when the answer is staring straight at them through it's gasmasked covered face.

Should we know who/what you're talking about?

 

[Tetsujin]

Should we know who/what you're talking about?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ah.

@Makoeyes987
I'm not sure how he really addresses any of the timetable questions you and others brought up about the world building, though?

 

[Torrie]

The dates of the Nibelheim Incident are the least strange of the dated moments of the FFVII Timeline. The amount of time necessary to hike Mount Nibel to the Nibel Reactor is left vague, along with the exact time frame of events such as hiking that whole mountain, returning to the village, and what was specifically done between 9/22 and October 1st.

Eventually, I came up with a more or less believable time plan because I assume travelling to Mt. Nibel and further on to the reactor must take a relatively short time and be doable within a few hours since the reference material of the compilation shows us the Nibelheim fire and the follow-up events happening within one night. On a less serious note: I just imagine Sephiroth looking desperately at the mountain and thinking to himself, "Oh for heaven's sake, not all this hiking again! Hold on mom, I'm coming soon."

And once the Remake gets to that part of the story, it's telling will more than likely be the new canon telling of that event, at least in reference to Cloud and the story.

This event in the lore of FF7 makes me think sometimes that FF7 itself exists in parallel timelines, or, perhaps the characters have already lived multiple times, and each new interpretation of the episode just shows each new incarnation. But I'd better stop my headcanon machine here.

How are people getting to gold saucer if there aren't airports and the only entry point is in a dilapidated, run down mountain town?

That's what bothers me as well. The place wouldn't be bursting with energy and festivities if it wasn't well attended by customers, so there should be a more convenient way to get there. That moment when fanfic writers have to do all the mental work trying to explain the unexplainable - and often do it much better than the creators themselves.

There very much is a void of world-building in FFVII.

World-building is incredibly hard work, but it's usually incredibly rewarding and worthwhile as well. I agree that in a lego-lookalike game assumptions are what helps the player move forward, and the world may defy all common sense, but the more realistic the game becomes, the more work has to be put into making it believable.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The key locations in the original game were well placed for moving a player around a world map, but didn't always make sense when looked at realistically. Gold Saucer ought to be close to its market - Midgar, Kalm, Junon. Disney had good reason for not choosing the Sahara Desert as the location of its theme park. Why is the site of Shinra's space program so far away from Midgar and so close to Wutai? (OK, for that one I can think of an explanation: as in WWII, the space program grew out of the rocket bomb program). The size of the planet is not believable. In Ivalice, we're not expected to believe that the region in which the game is set is the entire planet.

There's no reason for North Corel to be so poor when they are right there at the place where people catch the ropeway to Gold Saucer. They should be running concession stands and pay toilets and budget hotels, and making a fortune.

Some issues could be easily fixed in the Remake simply by showing larger cities on the distant horizon. Cloud and Co don't need to visit them. By showing power lines, and roads not taken, and more chocobo farms, and towns on hilltops, etc.... For example, it isn't realistic that no railway line exists between Kalm and Midgar, but all they have to do is show Cloud & Co walking a railway line for a while and the problem is solved. In the world they've set up it makes complete sense that the party has to go the long way round and avoid the Shinra controlled public transport.

But the world of FFVII isn't meant to be realistic. It's metaphorical, symbolic. Like a dream.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But the world of FFVII isn't meant to be realistic. It's metaphorical, symbolic. Like a dream.

Very appropriate description, and it is in no small part due to this I don't expect much difference in the depiction of the Gold Saucer.

Anyone who has been to popular honeymoon destinations like Jamaica can probably speak to how you take a ride past slums reminiscent of Midgar's along the way. Some folks are able to utilize this tourism to their advantage, of course, but not really to the extent of making a fortune, nor even necessarily living comfortably.

Now, that said, I do expect this go round we'll see some indication that the particularly well-to-do can take a helicopter ride into the Gold Saucer -- but even that would just be utilizing information we've long already had. During the Keystone incident in the original game, we saw that helicopter access to the park was available somewhere.

The key locations in the original game were well placed for moving a player around a world map, but didn't always make sense when looked at realistically. Gold Saucer ought to be close to its market - Midgar, Kalm, Junon. Disney had good reason for not choosing the Sahara Desert as the location of its theme park.

That is a good observation -- though ironically, plenty of business-minded folk thought Walt had gone crazy for picking swamp country "no one would want to visit or live in" to build Disney World. And in one sense, they weren't wrong: there was a great deal of reshaping the land necessary to even make it possible. Walt was clever, though, and knew a) he could get the land for cheap, and b) the ease of access that the developing U.S. Interstate Highway System was going to provide would make it all pay off.

 

[Clement Rage]

I am still puzzled. There are dozens of potentially logical conclusions for why the world is how it is.

'Realistic' =/= 'logical'

Lots of places are built in stupid locations for stupid reasons. California was settled not because it was a nice place to live, but because there was gold there.

Of course it's not realistic. No gameworld is, even the ones a lot of effort goes into like Red Dead Redemption (population 90pc bandits) or MGSV Afghanistan (populated entirely by Soviet soldiers)

The compilation revisits the same locations because of fan service, adding new locations as necessary, it doesn't have any bearing on the world building any more than never visiting Sector three means that it doesn't exist in universe.

Spoiler: look for the landscapes drawn by this seven year old

"Sir, I regret to inform you that we failed to find the fabled ice cream mountain"

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem isn't that the FFVII has unrealistic reasons for why certain things are the way they are. It's that the FFVII world has no reason for why things are the way they are too often in too many basic things about how/why the world is the way it is. It's hard to complain about "logic" of explanations in the FFVII world when it would be really nice if there was an explanation to complain about in the first place. All too often the explanation simply isn't there.

 

[Clement Rage]

Of course not. Any explanation would inherently be inadequate. All that happens is that people complain even more, and then complain 'OMG, why did they explain that when they could have left things ambiguous'.

Edit: Lack of explanation isn't a bad thing in itself unless there's some reason we need one.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

That is a cop-out. You look at games like FFXII where everything and it's mom gets an explanation for what it is somewhere and people love it.

It's pretty much impossible to go anywhere in FFXII without getting a through explanation for "how did this location get to be this way" or "why this monster is this way" or something. And one of the things people praise about FFXII is how alive and lived in the world is because they can find out why and how it got to be the way it is.

I see way more complaints in fandoms about not having enough information when it comes to world-building than too much.

 

[ForceStealer]

Pretty much all the FFs through IX were written as stories first and foremost. The world was secondary concern created only as necessary to serve the story. X was the first one to really take a shot at worldbuilding, and even then the plot was more important. XII famously flipped that dynamic, and the worldbuilding is impressive, but it would seem to have come at the expense of a character-driven narrative. XIII and XV, weirdly, put a ton of effort into worldbuilding and then barely used any of it.

VII, meanwhile, was in the old style of trying to a tell a story well before building a world, but as it gets more focus and more into the modern age, they find themselves having to build a world on top of what never had a reason and was anachronistic as hell.

There's no reason for North Corel to be so poor when they are right there at the place where people catch the ropeway to Gold Saucer. They should be running concession stands and pay toilets and budget hotels, and making a fortune.

They don't even charge for the ropeway!

 

[Odysseus]

Honestly even VII's story is a little all over the place. From being anti-corporate eco terrorists in a cyber punk city, to chasing around a scary man for vague reasons that the party mostly doesn't question for some reason

"We're wanted criminals and Shinra has a new president who's looking to be just as bad as the previous one, but my spikey friend says this Sephirwhosit is the real threat so we're going after him instead."

-Barret Wallace, maybe
(Honestly despite the controversy I think the remake justifies this one a little better.)

While elements like Shinra mostly take a back seat, and you have baffling scenes like Rufus trying to take the tiny bronco. There's a lot of time during disc one especially where the party has almost zero direction to speak of, like after you get the plane you basically just have to stumble into finding the keystone, and only then is Meteor introduced as a plot element justifying Sephiroth as "the real threat." All the stuff with Aerith dying, the reunion happening, and Sephiroth summoning meteor is pretty great, but then the game just kinda spins its wheels for a while on the huge materia quest until the raid on midgar gets the plot going again.

FFVII is my favorite game, but honestly sometimes I think it just kinda works despite itself lol.