(Un)Official FFVII Tier List

[Wolfmania]

What would be the tier list for the greatest powers in FFVII?

My opinion;

1 - Sephiroth

Self-explanatory, really. Doused in creator's statements and portrayal as the strongest.

2 - Cloud Strife

Sephiroth's rival both in battle and existential spirit force. Fought him equally in AC for 12+ hours until he got tired, was impaled in his entire body, just got get back up and push Sephiroth back.

3 - Zack Fair

Defeated the Planet's Final Guardian(Genesis), is said to have defeated Minerva, very impressive showings of power, etc...

4 - Genesis

As shown in DoC, accepted by the planet as It's final guardian, as skilled as CC Sephiroth but not as powerfull, absorbed some lifestream into him to cure his degradation.

5 - Kadaj

The larval form of the strongest being that ever existed in FFVII. Formed of Negative Lifestream, he was able to easily defeat a stigmatized Cloud.

6 - Vincent Valentine

Defeated various DG SOLDIERS, able to tap into the power of a WEAPON, matched and defeated base Weiss in battle.

7 - Weiss The Immaculate

Basically the same as Vincent, he's just abit weaker than the former.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

u late u late u late

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

1. cait sith
2. yuffie
3. fenrir
4. quina
5. commander shepard

 

[Wolfmania]

u late u late u late

Really?

The search function got me nowhere.

 

[Octo]

Why isnt Dio on that list?

Seriously though I think some of the Weapons should feature. Dunno where though.

 

[Ghost X]

8, 9, and 10, 11 etc maybe for the weapons? =p

 

[Wolfmania]

8, 9, and 10 maybe?

Maybe.

I just couldn't figure out who to put in those spots.

I figure maybe Elfé or the Legendary Turk, something like that.

Zirconiade is also a candidate.

 

[Ghost X]

You caught me before the edit =p.

 

[Octo]

Ooh! What about Carry Armour? It always used to kick the crap out of me?

And what about Jenova? Something I've never understood, Sephiroth is a human injected with Jenova in the womb. Surely this would make him less powerful than Jenova itself? (Yeah I know hes not) It just doesn't really make much sense.

 

[Wolfmania]

Ooh! What about Carry Armour? It always used to kick the crap out of me?

And what about Jenova? Something I've never understood, Sephiroth is a human injected with Jenova in the womb. Surely this would make him less powerful than Jenova itself? (Yeah I know hes not) It just doesn't really make much sense.

I think I'd put Jenova after Genesis, and maybe Minerva before him. He is the planet's "Final WEAPON" post CC after all, that should mean he's still subservant to the planet.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Before I present my list I have a question. Where was it stated that th battle between Cloud and Sephiroth lasted for 12 hours? I mean, I know we didn't see every signular clash of their blades but still. The part of the fight we watch is about 5-6 minutes, and seems to start on the same building where the duel actually starts. Somehow I doubt they ould contain their battle on one rooftop that long.

Anyway, on to my list.I won't be counting WEAPONS and the like since I hve no earthly idea where they shold go.

1.Sephiroth-Fairly obvious choice. Even before inheriting Jenovaa's power and knowledge of the lifestream Sephiroth demonstrated remarkable strength and skill, being able to easily slash through the Junon canon repeatedly and del both Genesis and Angeal. Even Zack seemed to be out of his league when fighting Sephiroth.

Post Nibel he is shown as being more or less unrivaled in tems of power. In ACC he handily outfights Cloud while Cloud is using Omnislash without ever losing his smirk.

2.Cloud-Also obvious. Though not as powerful as Sephiroth he is still incredibly strong and durable. His resolve allows him to fight even when he shouldn't be capable of movement. Whats more is his spirit energy seems to go into berserk mode when he's on the brink of death allowing him to utilize a Limit break far beyond his normal limit breaks, and consequently defeat enemies whose power is far greater than his own.

3.Omega Weiss/Chaos-These two seem fairly even,a nd both display absurd amounts of speed and durability. Its fair to assume that nothing short of Sephiroth's power or Cloud's resolve would be sufficient to challenge either of these combatants with any hope of victory.

4.Zack-Zack;s abilities clearly outshined those of other firsts. In addition to being one of the very feww people who can hold his own against Sephiroth, he was also able to defeat Genesis Avatar despite being past his prime at the time.

5.Genesis/Angeal-Agaiin I feel these guys are fairly equal. Angeal's physical strength allowed him to block attacks from both Genesis and Sephiroth. Granted they may have pulled the shots when he got between them, but still. On the other hand, Genesis's skill with magic seems to be unsurpassed, and allowed him to fight Pre-CC Sephirot on fairly even terms.

I'll edit in the rest of my list later, right now my laptops abot to die and the power cord is missing. I'lld deal with spelling issues and whatnot later as well.

EDIT:Alright, here comes the rest of my list.

6.Jenova-One might wonder why Jenova isn't higher on the list. While its true Jenova has many different abilities, she seemed to be more of a deciever and infiltrator than fighter. She was plenty dangerous however.

7.Vincent/Weiss-Much like their powered up counterparts I think these guys are fairly even.

8.Tsviets-This is where I put all of the Tsviets. Many of them ahve considerable power, and unique abilities. However, none of them were good enough to defeat Vincent in the end.

9.Kadaj-Its hard to judge Kadaj, since the only time we really see him fight is against Cloud. The first time he manages to beat a Geostigma inflicted Cloud who was already worn out from batting Loz and Yazoo. When kadaj faced Cloud at his peak Kadaj lost badly. Kadaj is likely the strongest of the SHM overall, and not to be taken lightly in a fight, even if he is a bad character.

10.Elfe-I could not in good conciouss not put Elfe here. I am not familiar with everything in BC, but I feel I know enough to conclude that Elfe deserves this spot. When faced with the player Turk in BC Elfe was able to take complete control of the fight, and if not for Sephiroth's arrival Elfe would ahve murdered the player. Whats more impressive is that Elfe managed to block a strike from Sephiroth that carried enough force to smash the conrete beneath them. While blocking a single strike and then running might not seem like much compared to Cloud and Zack's respective fights with Sephiroth, it is worth noting that virtually nobody in the FFVII world is good enough to do so.

 

[Wolfmania]

Before I present my list I have a question. Where was it stated that th battle between Cloud and Sephiroth lasted for 12 hours? I mean, I know we didn't see every signular clash of their blades but still. The part of the fight we watch is about 5-6 minutes, and seems to start on the same building where the duel actually starts. Somehow I doubt they could contain their battle on one rooftop that long.

The Reunion Files.

They stated Cloud and Sephiroth started fighting at 6pm, and he woke up in the church at 7am.

If you look with care, you'll see the scene after the fight and the children all run to the church, is sunrise. The scene where Cloud confronts Kadaj is also sunrise.

Also, just FYI, Cloud and Sephiroth were fairly equal in power during AC, the creator's state as much here.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7857/119tee.jpg

First Quote.

They aren't that far apart, especially counting existential energy. Sephiroth is stronger no doubt, but that is because of his limitless stamina reserves.

Post Nibel he is shown as being more or less unrivaled in tems of power. In ACC he handily outfights Cloud while Cloud is using Omnislash without ever losing his smirk.

This is also a bit incorrect. Sephiroth was clearly preparing himself to counter the omnislash, and he could only because he already saw the attack, to amount to that, he could only parry it, and counter the very last one.

That being said, he did lose his smirk while fending off the slash. He also lost It when he was fighting Cloud in the falling rubble. No doubt in frustration that he couldn't overpower Cloud like he wanted to.

Like I said all that just re-enforces the creator's statement that they are fairly equal in power. Otherwise Cloud wouldn't be able to outstrenght Sephiroth on more than two occasions and match his strikes.

 

[Vivi]

5.Genesis/Angeal-Agaiin I feel these guys are fairly equal. Angeal's physical strength allowed him to block attacks from both Genesis and Sephiroth. Granted they may have pulled the shots when he got between them, but still. On the other hand, Genesis's skill with magic seems to be unsurpassed, and allowed him to fight Pre-CC Sephirot on fairly even terms.

I have to agree with this. I always figured that Angeal never had a desire to show off, which is why he stayed out of most of the Junon cannon battle. And he does appear to have the heaviest sword.

 

[Lord Noctis]

The Reunion Files.

They stated Cloud and Sephiroth started fighting at 6pm, and he woke up in the church at 7am.

If you look with care, you'll see the scene after the fight and the children all run to the church, is sunrise. The scene where Cloud confronts Kadaj is also sunrise.

Also, just FYI, Cloud and Sephiroth were fairly equal in power during AC, the creator's state as much here.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7857/119tee.jpg

First Quote.

They aren't that far apart, especially counting existential energy. Sephiroth is stronger no doubt, but that is because of his limitless stamina reserves.



This is also a bit incorrect. Sephiroth was clearly preparing himself to counter the omnislash, and he could only because he already saw the attack, to amount to that, he could only parry it, and counter the very last one.

That being said, he did lose his smirk while fending off the slash. He also lost It when he was fighting Cloud in the falling rubble. No doubt in frustration that he couldn't overpower Cloud like he wanted to.

Like I said all that just re-enforces the creator's statement that they are fairly equal in power. Otherwise Cloud wouldn't be able to outstrenght Sephiroth on more than two occasions and match his strikes.

Sephiroth was claearly msirking the whole way through Omnislash, and preperations or not the fact that he could keep up at all is proof that he is superior.

Second, as far as I know that statement was in regards to AC, not ACC. ACC clearly shows that Sephiroth is on a significantly higher level.

EDIT: In addition, just because Cloud wakes up in the church doesn't mean the fight lasted that long. He may just have been unconciouss for a long time after he blew up. The scene was Kadaj looks to be roughly the same time of day as wen the duel started near as I can tell.

EDIT2: Now having read that link, where the hell does it say they were equal. Maybe my eyes just suck but I saw nothing that suggest they were equal.

 

[Wolfmania]

Sephiroth was claearly msirking the whole way through Omnislash

Uh, no, seriously, just look at his face.

0:45 onwards, there's clearly no smirk there.

0:48 onwards, also a serious look.

and preperations or not the fact that he could keep up at all is proof that he is superior.

What? Of course not. He was clearly preparing for the attack by even entering a stance.

Cloud uses burts of spirit energy, Sephiroth dosen't use them as limits, he simply prepares. If Cloud had overpowered him with It, they wouldn't be equals, as the quote tells it.

Plus, he knew the attack very well.

Second, as far as I know that statement was in regards to AC, not ACC. ACC clearly shows that Sephiroth is on a significantly higher level.

It's from the Reunion Files, hence for every version of the AC/C movies there are, It's basically direct creator's thoughts on the subject.

It definitely counts, since It's the analysis of AC/C.

Plus, the fight It'self clearly supports the notion. If what you are saying is true, Cloud wouldn't be able to at times overpower him in strenght and force him backwards, yet that happens, both to Cloud and to Sephiroth. That's the exact definition of an equal battle.

In addition, just because Cloud wakes up in the church doesn't mean the fight lasted that long. He may just have been unconciouss for a long time after he blew up. The scene was Kadaj looks to be roughly the same time of day as wen the duel started near as I can tell.

No, It was sunrise when Sephiroth was defeated, as you can actually see the sun in the sky, unlike when the fight starts.

Also the scene after the battle where the children go to the church is sunrise. It would mean they all waited 12+ hours in the church for Cloud to wake up, which is unlikely, they were all steps away from the church.

Meaning the fight lasted for 12+ hours.

Which isn't surprising considering The motorcycle chase and The Bahamut fight scene were stated to each have lasted 2 hours. It's not surprising that a much bigger fight would've lasted 10+.

EDIT2: Now having read that link, where the hell does it say they were equal. Maybe my eyes just suck but I saw nothing that suggest they were equal.

First Quote.

"He tells Cloud of his desire to drag the world into darkness, and the battle between destined rivals begins. The battle is fast and ferocious. Sephiroth eventually takes the upper hand, cornering an exhausted Cloud."

upper hand
n.
A position of control or advantage.

Meaning, for the duration of the fight, before Cloud got exhausted, no one had any advantage, in other words, they were equals.

Not in stamina, however, as I've told you already.

The material completely supports this, as I've said earlier. Sephiroth even lost his smirk after the falling building scene, no doubt in frustration of not being able to overpower Cloud instantly like he wanted to.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Alright, I cocnede he lost his smirk there. But still, keep in mind Cloud's movements are much faster during Omnislash, in addition to being charged with a great deal of spirit energy. Despite this Sephiroth completely outfights him, even if it was more difficult to do so. If they were really equal, Sephiroth would have had to use an equivilant technique to keep up. He didn't though. Instead he blocked and doged every blow, knocked Cloud backwards, and impaled him when Cloud tried to attack again.

However, your arguement seems to be based on Sephiroth wanting to overpower Cloud instantly. If that was the case, and the duel takes over 12 hours, I would think he'd start looking a bit frustrated long before he did.

Hell, if the fight really went that long its a miracle that they didn't just get bored of swinging swords at each other and call a truce. its what I would have done.

Joking aside, its clear that Sephiroth wanted to kill Cloud slowly, he wanted him to suffer and be filled with despair.

If his goal was to insta-kill Cloud he has a whole host of powers and abilities to use for that purpose. Teleport behind him and stab him, hold him place with telekenesis and take his head off, fly out of range and use heartless angel, supernova, or one of his other abilities. Maybe a flurry of draw-slashes.

But he didn't wnat that. He engages Cloud blade to blade in order to prove that he's the better swordsman. Hell, there are points in the fight where he clearly has the advantadge, but suddenly falls back anyway even though Cloud did nothing to drive him back.

Now I'm not saying that he could kill Cloud whenever he wanted as some people believe, but he clearly wasn't taking the fight as seriously as Cloud.

The fight was even not because Cloud is as powerful as Sephiroth, though Cloud is extremely strong, but because Sephiroth chose to fight Cloud on Cloud's terms in order to demonstrate how superior he is.

Take into consideration Sephiroth doesn't even unleash his wing until he more or less already has Cloud (seemingly) beat. If he was really getting frustrated and wanted to overpower Cloud more quickly, why not utilise that power sooner in the fight.

I suppose you could argue that the wing does nothing, but if that were the case Sephiroth wouldn't bother. He clearly doesn't need it to fly. Logicly we can conclude that the wing somehow boosts his power.

 

[Joker]

1. Mukki
2. Don Corneo
3. Bugenhagen
4. The bastard who rides the black chocobo in the races
5. Sandal

 

[Lord Noctis]

1. Mukki
2. Don Corneo
3. Bugenhagen
4. The bastard who rides the black chocobo in the races
5. Sandal

Is it to late to change my list to this?

 

[Joker]

Honorable mention: lesbians

 

[Max Payne]

1.The Goddamn Batman
2. Optimus Prime
3.Master Chief
4.Gordon Freeman
5.Prophet
6.That Bartender on Illium

 

[Joker]

She just cleaned the bar

so no sex on it pls

 

[Wolfmania]

But still, keep in mind Cloud's movements are much faster during Omnislash, in addition to being charged with a great deal of spirit energy. Despite this Sephiroth completely outfights him, even if it was more difficult to do so. If they were really equal, Sephiroth would have had to use an equivilant technique to keep up. He didn't though. Instead he blocked and doged every blow, knocked Cloud backwards, and impaled him when Cloud tried to attack again.

Cloud isn't faster during the Omnislash, just the V6.

And that's the thing, Sephiroth dosen't have any techniques, which has no charging whatsoever, no energy gathering whatsoever.

His spiritual power seems to be ever-present, like Cloud's, which is why they burn building and produce light, which the 3N interview stated was "the release of gathered energy".

Cloud's release is simply flashier than Seph's.

One can conclude that Sephiroth simply gathers his energy like Cloud when he wants to attack all out, just without a technique, like in the stance he entered before the Omni. As he was visually preparing himself for the attack.

And he could only block and dodge, just to counter the last one.

So yea, It's not a contradiction to their quote, It's simply enforcing It. When Cloud steps a level above normal, so must Seph.

However, your arguement seems to be based on Sephiroth wanting to overpower Cloud instantly. If that was the case, and the duel takes over 12 hours, I would think he'd start looking a bit frustrated long before he did.

Not really, his frustration becomes apparent right before the end when he still couldn't overpower Cloud.

Sephiroth is a patient man, I'd expect him to only get frustrated when he absolutely has to.

Hell, if the fight really went that long its a miracle that they didn't just get bored of swinging swords at each other and call a truce. its what I would have done.

Well, considering the Reunion Files and the Case Of The Lifestream describe Sephiroth's sole current existance as killing Cloud, and Cloud hates him pretty much, their killing intent is no wonder to have laster tha tlong.

If his goal was to insta-kill Cloud he has a whole host of powers and abilities to use for that purpose. Teleport behind him and stab him

He was intending to kill Cloud. He clearly in the fight almost decapitated Cloud by a slight margin.

Sephiroth never uses teleportation in combat, he just uses It to get around the party in FFVII.

He uses Super-speed in combat, which to some looks like teleportation since he dissapears from sight, but since Cloud is at his speed range, it dosen't give him an advantage.

hold him place with telekenesis and take his head off

Highly doubt this would've worked.

Telekinesis comes from one's spiritual energy in FFVII. End of FFVII Cloud's energy is stronger than FFVII Sephiroth's spiritual energy, it would without a doubt give him great resistance to telekinesis, which he has already faced.

Besides, Seph used TK in combat, he dropped the shinra building with It, he could've been trying to use It at Cloud, but failing considering this is Cloud at his upmost power.

fly out of range and use heartless angel, supernova, or one of his other abilities. Maybe a flurry of draw-slashes.

I have no idea what "Draw Slashes" is.

He dosen't really have any of those abilities outside of game mechanics. Except for Octaslash, which he used on Cloud.

Besides, Cloud also didn't use any limit like Braver, Climhazzard, etc..

He only used the All-slash when he was completely exhausted.

So It's not correct to argue Seph wasn't trying when Cloud also didn't use any ability as well for the duration of the fight.

But that was also because they simply wanted to make It an all-out sword bout, you can obviously tell Sephiroth is trying since he uses two hands, grunts, is pushed backwards, and loses his smirk.

But he didn't wnat that. He engages Cloud blade to blade in order to prove that he's the better swordsman. Hell, there are points in the fight where he clearly has the advantadge, but suddenly falls back anyway even though Cloud did nothing to drive him back.

Hum, no the fight actually clearly has points that portray both as equal.

Which is absolutely correct, since they're so equal in physical levels at times Cloud will have the advantage, at times Seph will, and at times they will just be in one slashing parade.

Which is what happened, as at times Cloud pushed and drove Seph back, and vice-versa.

The quote also clearly says the opinions about the sword fight, even if you believe Sephiroth held back in techniques and magic(which Cloud also didn't use any limits until fully tired).

Now I'm not saying that he could kill Cloud whenever he wanted as some people believe, but he clearly wasn't taking the fight as seriously as Cloud.

I digress.

I can't imagine him losing his smirk while not being serious. This is the man that never loses his cool.

Cloud also didn't use any magic or techniques for the duration of the fight, as the creator's wanted an all-out sword battle.

And in that aspect, it's clear he is trying, using two-hands, stances, producing fire e light, etc...

The fight was even not because Cloud is as powerful as Sephiroth, though Cloud is extremely strong, but because Sephiroth chose to fight Cloud on Cloud's terms in order to demonstrate how superior he is.

What do you mean exactly by this?

It's obvious they were portrayed as equals on the fight It'self, as the creator's quote directly tells us.

The fight lasted that long because Sephiroth can't just overpower Cloud physicaly.

He had to fight him for more than 12 hours(becoming frustrated, even) until Cloud became exhausted.

And in the duration of that long battle, they were equals.

Take into consideration Sephiroth doesn't even unleash his wing until he more or less already has Cloud (seemingly) beat. If he was really getting frustrated and wanted to overpower Cloud more quickly, why not utilise that power sooner in the fight. I suppose you could argue that the wing does nothing, but if that were the case Sephiroth wouldn't bother. He clearly doesn't need it to fly. Logicly we can conclude that the wing somehow boosts his power

Because we know those wings give you no boost in power.

They are purely Aesthetic for those that can fly without them, and if you do argue that it boosts his power, how could this have happened?

6:50 onwards.

Sephiroth, going full-out dash to kill Cloud.

Cloud gets up, and pushes him backwards, out-strengthening Seph.

That wouldn't be possible If Sephiroth was so superior to Cloud as you claim he is. That would only be possible if they are relatively equals.

Which according to the creator's they are.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Sephiroth does have an anwser to Omnislash, its called Octaslash and quite clearly has a flashy display of power, as does draw slash. Draw slash is the attack where he swings his blade and out comes an energy beam. Besides, Cloud's own sword lit shit on fire too, showing he could do the same. Sephiroth didn't use any additional power during Omnislash, he just kept fighting as he had been and still knocked Cloud back, and when Cloud came at him again he got impaled by Sephiroth.

Also, Supernova and Heartless angel are both more or elss confirmed as abilities Sephiroth has. IIRC they are both mentioned in the ultimania guides, and supernova is refferenced in Crisis Core as being a limit break of Sephiroth's.

Also, your theory on Sephiroth's TK is flawed. You say Cloud's spirit energy was greater than Sephiroth's in FFVII. Then how did Sephiroth use TK on Cloud along with the rets of Avalanche for a full minute? Thats some bullshit logic.

If Cloud>Sephiroth than it is impossible that Sephiroth>Cloud+Avalanche. So either Cloud was weaker, or TK is based on something else. Besides, Sephiroth is more powerufl in AC/C than ever before. So, if he wanted to Sephiroth could probably use TK to briefly immobolise Cloud in order to attack him.

Also, where are you getting that hihg-speed movement thing? Where is it even suggested thats what he does?

As for the part where Cloud throws him back, its simple. He was caught off guard. Cloud shouldn't have been able to move. Sephiroth had crippled him specificly so he couldn't move, so he would be helpless and completely at Sephiroth's mercy. Therefore when Cloud goes from kneeling in a pool of his own blood to rushing up at Sephiroth, he was unprepared and consequently knocked back.

Besides, we know Cloud's spirit energy was in the process of going berserk at that point, so its reasonable to assume that Cloud was strogner than normal then.

Now, if Sephiroth's wing literall does nothing (Except arguably provide one more target for Cloud to hit) why does he bring it out. Don't give me the "It looks cool" arguement. Give me an alternetaive in universe explenation.

EDIT:Also note, the creators never called them equals. They implied the fight was even for a time, which it was, because Sephiroth was purposefully fighting Cloud sword to sword and disregarding the vast majority of his magic and special abilities because he felt he had something to prove.

 

[Wolfmania]

Sephiroth does have an anwser to Omnislash, its called Octaslash and quite clearly has a flashy display of power

Um, not, It really isn't.

6:25 onwards.

That's the Octaslash.

Not charging, flashing, etc..

it's the same in CC.

Draw slash is the attack where he swings his blade and out comes an energy beam

They hadn't though of this in AC yet. Neither did he use It in LO.

That's something they only thought of putting in CC.

Besides, Cloud's own sword lit shit on fire too, showing he could do the same

Yes, It's because they're at the very least physcial equals.

Sephiroth didn't use any additional power during Omnislash, he just kept fighting as he had been and still knocked Cloud back

Cloud without the Omnislash could knock Sephiroth backwards and drive him back with normal strikes.

Sephiroth was clearly preparing to face the omnislash with a stance.

Therefore, it's easy to conclude he was upping his power to match the omnislash.

Also, Supernova and Heartless angel are both more or elss confirmed as abilities Sephiroth has. IIRC they are both mentioned in the ultimania guides, and supernova is refferenced in Crisis Core as being a limit break of Sephiroth's.

Not really.

"Super Nova

In FFVII it is the strongest technique that Safer Sephiroth uses, destroying planets with the power of an expanding sun, the resulting supernova obliterating his enemies. Within Crisis Core, it is one of the answers required to pass the Premium Fanclub’s test." - http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/284/crisis-core-complete-guide-keyword-collection/

Thi dosen't really confirm it outside of the mechanics.

Also, your theory on Sephiroth's TK is flawed. You say Cloud's spirit energy was greater than Sephiroth's in FFVII. Then how did Sephiroth use TK on Cloud along with the rets of Avalanche for a full minute? Thats some bullshit logic.

His energy IS greater. He outright beat Sephiroth in a spiritual battle in the lifestream.

His TK could only hold them back to a certain degree.

Remember that AC Cloud is miles above his old power, so It's understandable if he could overcome Seph's TK since the FFVII party did It.

If Cloud>Sephiroth than it is impossible that Sephiroth>Cloud+Avalanche

Keep in mind, AC Cloud is most likely stronger than the entire part in FFVII.

So either Cloud was weaker, or TK is based on something else

Cloud was definitely much weaker in FFVII.

It might be. I'm not eliminating the possibility.

ephiroth is more powerufl in AC/C than ever before. So, if he wanted to Sephiroth could probably use TK to briefly immobolise Cloud in order to attack him.

Again, doubt that would work on AC Cloud.

If he could have used it, he would have. He got frustrated that he couldn't overpower Cloud, if that would work, he would surely use It, IMO.

Also, where are you getting that hihg-speed movement thing? Where is it even suggested thats what he does?

In DoC, people dissapear from sight looking like teleportation in combat all the time.

Considering AC Sephiroth is stronger than anyone in DoC(as Is Cloud) and that they stated AC was slowed down, it's very likely to be such.

As for the part where Cloud throws him back, its simple. He was caught off guard. Cloud shouldn't have been able to move. Sephiroth had crippled him specificly so he couldn't move, so he would be helpless and completely at Sephiroth's mercy. Therefore when Cloud goes from kneeling in a pool of his own blood to rushing up at Sephiroth, he was unprepared and consequently knocked back.

Oh, absolutely not.

He was charging full-out with his wing, double handed on the masamune for a strike.

Cloud intercepted that strike and pushed him back. Even if he was caught by surprise(he wasn't) that's no excuse to be outstrenghted.

Besides, we know Cloud's spirit energy was in the process of going berserk at that point, so its reasonable to assume that Cloud was strogner than normal then.

You're contradicting yourself.

You said Sephiroth could push back an omnislashed Cloud with his normal strikes, yet when he is dashing two handed at full speed with his wing he gets outstrenghted.

See?

My version isn't contradicted, and fits perfectly with creator's quotes.

Now, if Sephiroth's wing literall does nothing (Except arguably provide one more target for Cloud to hit) why does he bring it out. Don't give me the "It looks cool" arguement. Give me an alternetaive in universe explenation.

Obviously to remind Cloud of his past pains. Cloud even looks at the wing with surprise, indicating Seph's desired effect.

That's exactly what he said:

"Let me remind you, this time you won't forget."

Reminding Cloud of his past, as he had that wing in the last battle.

EDIT:Also note, the creators never called them equals. They implied the fight was even for a time, which it was, because Sephiroth was purposefully fighting Cloud sword to sword and disregarding the vast majority of his magic and special abilities because he felt he had something to prove.

I literally don't see how that would be logical.

All he proved is that he had more stamina than Cloud, yet he couldn't outskill, outstrenght, or overpower him with physical ability, which led to him becoming frustrated and losing his smirk.

Sephiroth dosen't have magic without materia, he has outher abilities like TK, intangibility, etc.. however.

Cloud also didn't have any magic.

So, you can we least agree they are physical equals, barring teh stamina trait?

 

[Lord Noctis]

So Sephiroth was completely unsurprised that a seemingly defeated Cloud suddenly came at him stronger than ever? he totally predicted this? Really? Then why didn't he do something about it. Besides, Omnislash ver.6 is much stronger than Omnislash (Obivously), thereforeeven though Sephiroth can drive back Cloud during Omnislash, he can't do the same during Omnislash ver.6. I made no contradiction.

Also, in regards to draw slash. ACC was made post CC, and draw slash is still not present.

Second, watch octaslash in Crisis Core again. As he's attacking Zack in the air he becomes surrounded by spirit energy, and when he dives down on Zack a wave of spirit energy launches outwards. What Sephiroth uses on Cloud is not Octalsash, its just a series of sword strikes meant to cripple Cloud so Sephiroth can finish him at his leisure.

Now, as for this stance buisness. Sephiroth and Cloud have both taken stances repeatedly across the whole fight. Do you mean to tell me that they were raising their power each time they did that? In a fight lasting 12 hours? So what, they started with only like a 10th of their power or something?

Sephiroth taking that stance shows that he was preparing to engage Cloud in combat, but it does not show that he was using some sort of limit break that just happened to be invisible. Sephiroth outfought Cloud plain and simple.

Now back to FFVII. Please keep in mind the one-on-one in the lifestream takes placeafter Sephiroth's form is torn apart. Its not unreasonable to assume that Sephiroth might not be at hist best. But lets suppose your right. Cloud was stronger. In that case TK absolutely can't be based on spirit energy in the way you say it is.

Sephiroth completely restrains not just Cloud, but every single other member of Avalanche, rendering them helpless and torturing them for several moments before they escape.

Besides, in ACC Sephiroth is stronger than he was before. While the same is true of Cloud, and I'm sure the increase is a large one since even Sephiroth commented on it, I find it hard to believe that Cloud has increased his strength to the point where he is superior to Himself plus every member of Avalanche from two years ago.

Now, the assumptiont hatif Sephiroth could use it, he would. This isn't necesarily true. Keep in mind Sephiroth wanted to establish himself as the superior swordsman. Simply using TK coupled with a decapitation does not achieve that.Nor does it make Cloud suffer, or crush his resolve and fill him with despair, it doesn't humiliate him. All of these are things Sephiroth wants to do to Cloud before he kills him.

Now, in regards to his wing. Sephiroth using that wing to remind Cloud of his past pain makes no sense. First off, Sephiroth ahs never had that wing in front of Cloud before this point. Second, Sephiroth is clearly refferencing when he stabbed Cloud at Nibelheim. So using the wing as a reminder of that doesn't work.

Now regarding the teleporting thing. If Sephiroth in the middle of combat finds his speed insufficient to get the job done, why not use teleportation? He was able to catch the part completely off-guard that way in FFVII. Why not do it here? He could end the fight quite easily.

And it is logical that Sephiroth would restrain his abilities if he wanted to prove that he's the better swordsman. The whole reasons he wanted this fight to happen is because Cloud injured his pride. Sephiroth wants to prove that he is the better warrior, he wants to beat Cloud blade to blade. He has a whole host of power he could have easily used otherwise.

Now, as for your last statement. I can't agree that they are equal in strength. The evidence I ahve seen simply does not support that. However, I can agree they are equal in skill, and that Cloud's reflexes and speed are good enough to keep up with Sephiroth. In addition, I will concede that Cloud can surpass Sephiroth's strength briefly. Not all the time. But at times. Sephiroth still has the edge, but Cloud can gain momentaryadvantadges when his strength peaks, or when his spirit energy align with his physical strength.

So they aren't equal, but Cloud is definetely up there high enough to constitute a real threat to Sephiroth. I also do aree that Sephiroth's endless staminais one of his biggest advantadges.

EDIT:I went back and double-checked the lighting after Cloud beats Sephiroth. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious but it really looks the same. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but the lighting and clouds (pun not intended) just look the same to me. Theres certainly more to the fight than we witness, but not 12 hours worth IMO. It seems more likely Cloud was just unconcious overnight, and it took until morning for everyone to go to the church after Aerith called them/ for him to actually be put there by Aerith to wake up.

Which would make sesne. Being stabbed and slashed repeatedly, voilently slammed into shit, shot, and blown up, would tend to keep somebody down for awhile, even if they do have a dead woman with superpowers to look after them.

Makes more sense for the fight anyway. With bahamut Sin it makes sense it took 2 hours. Its a bunch fo people fighting a heavily armoured dragon that their weapons don't seem to hurt much. Once Cloud showed up with enough strength to hurt it the fight ended in a few minutes.

In the case of Cloud vs. Sephiroth its a bit different. its just two dudes who hate each others guts fighting each other. It becomes less a battle of attrition like it is with bahamut, and more a contest of skill and strength IMO.