(Un)Official FFVII Tier List

[Wolfmania]

Yea Aerith saying It makes more sense, Cloud just saying that he took some energy for himself makes no connection to Meteor.

Sephiroth's soul is still above the lifestream, regardless.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Yea Aerith saying It makes more sense, Cloud just saying that he took some energy for himself makes no connection to Meteor.

Sephiroth's soul is still above the lifestream, regardless.

After FFVII he ended up having to surrender the vast majority of his memories,including that of his physical appearance just to keep from dispersing, and even then he still needed Cloud to act as sort of an anchor for him.



Besides, Sephiroth'sability to keep from dispersing has more to do with willpower rather than his spirit energy. There is a difference.

At the time of ACC wen Sephiroth has a negative lifestream at his disposal in addition to his own power he is probably above the lifestream. But at the time of FFVII it makes no sense to assume such.

Keep in mind, the lifestream is made up of the combined spirit energy of everything thats ever lived. Somehow I doubt Sephiroth's spirirt energy surpasses the combine energy of every single thing thats ever lived.

 

[Wolfmania]

After FFVII he ended up having to surrender the vast majority of his memories,including that of his physical appearance just to keep from dispersing, and even then he still needed Cloud to act as sort of an anchor for him.

Because Cloud damaged his spiritual body to the point where he became highly weakened and had to hold on to his core memories. That actually ended up making himself stronger.

The first time he died he kept all his memories, and completely resisted the lifestream's pull.

Besides, Sephiroth'sability to keep from dispersing has more to do with willpower rather than his spirit energy. There is a difference.

Soul/Will/spirit energy are basically the same thing.

Even when Sephiroth's physical body was destroyed, his will still kept holding back Holy. And at that point all that was left of him was his soul living in the lifestream.

At the time of ACC wen Sephiroth has a negative lifestream at his disposal in addition to his own power he is probably above the lifestream. But at the time of FFVII it makes no sense to assume such.

Er...he was going to subjulgate the entire lifestream.

That was his whole plan. Gather It to one area and gain dominance over It.

He suceeded this plan in AC. His will has always been above the lifestream.

Keep in mind, the lifestream is made up of the combined spirit energy of everything thats ever lived. Somehow I doubt Sephiroth's spirirt energy surpasses the combine energy of every single thing thats ever lived.

I don't. Heck the creator's say as much to us.

Really, he's hyped up as superior to the Ancients.

He's able to do the impossible, something Ancients alone were said to be able to and that is remain constant in the lifestream and completely ignore It's flow.

His soul alone was able to hold the planet's Holy, resist It's pull, and with enough time, gain dominance over It.

 

[Lord Noctis]

No, will and spirit are not the same thing. Your spirit energy is the microscopic amoung of its power the lifestream gives t new lifeforms. Over the course of your life you spirirt energy grows until you die and your power rejoins the lifestream, making it grow. The lifestream has been growing steadily for probably billions of years.

Your willpower is just that, willpower. Sephiroth can resist the lifestreams pull because of willpower, the strength of his personality, his mind, not his spirirt energy. His spirit energy cannot be grater than the planets. The only time his power could surpass the planets is after he used Geostigma to corrupt large portions of it to create his own lifestream.

Which brings me to another point that statements regarding Sephiroth being above everything else is likely directed specificly towards AC/C. Otherwise Cloud's victory in FFVII makes no sense.

In ffvii, if he was really above the lifestream he would have no trouble just absorbing it during his five year bath in the lifestream. He wouldn't need Meteor to do it.

 

[Wolfmania]

No, will and spirit are not the same thing. Your spirit energy is the microscopic amoung of its power the lifestream gives t new lifeforms. Over the course of your life you spirirt energy grows until you die and your power rejoins the lifestream, making it grow. The lifestream has been growing steadily for probably billions of years.

Your spiritual energy is given to you by the cosmos, not the lifestream Itself.

Though, if you are living on said planet, your spirit energy will go into the lifestream.

Your willpower is just that, willpower. Sephiroth can resist the lifestreams pull because of willpower, the strength of his personality, his mind, not his spirirt energy. His spirit energy cannot be grater than the planets. The only time his power could surpass the planets is after he used Geostigma to corrupt large portions of it to create his own lifestream.

Your willpower is not your personality.

Willpower is strenght of spirit. If his spirit were weaker than the lifestream, he wouldn't be able to corrupt or absorb It like he would've done in AC/C, nor would he even be able to resist It's pull.

We know that telekinesis comes from the will, since Sephiroth was holding back holy with It. I highly doubt will is one's personality or anything else other than one's strenght of spirit, considering the power it's granted.

Which brings me to another point that statements regarding Sephiroth being above everything else is likely directed specificly towards AC/C. Otherwise Cloud's victory in FFVII makes no sense.

What do you mean Cloud's victory would make no sense?

Cloud has a soul almost as powerful as Sephiroth's.

In ffvii, if he was really above the lifestream he would have no trouble just absorbing it during his five year bath in the lifestream. He wouldn't need Meteor to do it.

Absorb It into what? He was a simple spirit at the time.

That's exactly It, meteor's job was simply to gather the energy.

The subjulgating was all on Sephiroth's part.

If his soul were not above the lifestream as you say; he wouldn't be able to resist the pull, or subjulgate It like he was going to do in FFVII.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Bugenhagen
Ho Ho Hoooo. Yes, it is something, isn't it?
Well, let's get to the subject.
Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die?
The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls?
The soul too returns to the Planet.
And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same.
The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet.
They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'.
Lifestream... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet.
'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget.
A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world.
Then, the time comes when they die and once again return to the Planet...
Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world.
I've digressed, but you'll understand better if you watch this.
On the Planet model, a man is born, and dies. His spirit energy enters the Lifestream and forms a tree elsewhere. The tree dies and returns to the Lifestream. A new man is born, and dies, etc. Eventually the Lifestream covers the entire Planet.
Bugenhagen
Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans.
Not just living things. But spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets.
What happens if that energy were to disappear?
Bugenhagen takes all the Spirit energy away and the Planet crumbles and dies.

The game disagrees with your interpretation of where spirit energy comes from.

Seriously, didn't you ever wonder why they refer to death as "Returning to the planet?"


But even still, if we suppose that Sephiroth's will is his spirit energy, and that in FFVII his spirit energy is unmatched, then how did Cloud overpower him? The only explenation is that either A.Sephiroth's will is not above everything else, or B.Willpower=/=Spirit Energy.

In regards to Sephiroth aborbing the lifestream, you seem confused. Why would his power have to be greater than the lifestream's to absorb it? Especially when said lifestream is dealing with other things at the time?

I mean really, whats it gonna do, fistfight him?

Again, in ACC when Sephiroth has the negative lifestream then he MIGHT have more raw power han the planet. Maybe. But in FFVII not so much.

 

[Wolfmania]

The game disagrees with your interpretation of where spirit energy comes from.

Seriously, didn't you ever wonder why they refer to death as "Returning to the planet?"

Not exactly.

He did say that the spirits that return to the planet form the lifestream.

He didn't exactly say where spirits come from, he just said that every new life brought into the world is blessed with It.

Returning to the planet might as well mean they're return to the cosmos, since in DoC we see that the planet is treated as a part of the universe It'self.

I mean, if It were like that, how would the lifestream even grow?

But even still, if we suppose that Sephiroth's will is his spirit energy, and that in FFVII his spirit energy is unmatched, then how did Cloud overpower him? The only explenation is that either A.Sephiroth's will is not above everything else, or B.Willpower=/=Spirit Energy.

Or C) Cloud has just as much spiritual energy as Sephiroth; to the point where he is virtually unmatched as well.

Seriously, the compilation heavily implies it, as at times the planet It'self speaks to Cloud.

Without any Jenova Cells or Mako enhancements, Cloud is able to pick-up the buster sword and swing at Sephiroth.

He's able to throw Sephiroth into a wall with a sword imapiling his chest.

No human could do that, and he didn't have any SOLDIER enhancements at the time. What's left?

His Willpower/soul.

And he's able to use his spirit energy in a way that he basically destroyed the soul of AC/C Sephiroth and after his "destruction" the negative lifestream dissapeared or dispersed.

In regards to Sephiroth aborbing the lifestream, you seem confused. Why would his power have to be greater than the lifestream's to absorb it? Especially when said lifestream is dealing with other things at the time?

I mean really, whats it gonna do, fistfight him?

No, It's his phrase about "gaining dominance over It's energy".

He wouldn't be able to subjulgate trillions of souls to his own dominion if his very original soul was not powerful enough to do so.

Again, in ACC when Sephiroth has the negative lifestream then he MIGHT have more raw power han the planet. Maybe. But in FFVII not so much.

I'm not really talking about raw power here.

I'm talking more about the power of his spirit. Heck, he was going to overpower all the spirits in the lifestream and being tehm into his dominion. Something he might've accomplished in AC/C.

Heck, In FFVII alone his spirit was strong enough to hold back Holy.

Tha planet's special defense, capable of going up against meteor; which is strong enough to destroy the planet.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Uh, I must be missing something. When the hell did the planet talk to Cloud? I mean yeah, the party ehard its cries at Cosmo Canyon, but the whole party heard it, not just Cloud.

Also, once agin there is a flaw in your arguement. If will=spiit energy then Cloud cannot match Sephiroth. As you have repeatedly pointed outSephiroth's will is stated as being the strongest out there. Despite this Cloud defeats Sephiroth in a spirital battle. The only way this makes sense is if willpower=/=spirit energy.

In terms of willpower alone Sephiroth might be unmatched. But the facts show us that will=/= spirit energy, and common sense tells us Sephiroth's own spirirt energy cannot surpass the lifestream, given that the lifestream is comprised of the collective spirirt energy of everything that has lived and died on the planet. That includes every SOLDIER, every cetra, every unenhanced human, every animal, and every plant that has ever lived and died. Thats trillions of souls at least, including guys like Zack and Angeal for crying out loud.

Sephiroth's will is unmatched, not his spirit energy.

 

[Wolfmania]

Uh, I must be missing something. When the hell did the planet talk to Cloud? I mean yeah, the party ehard its cries at Cosmo Canyon, but the whole party heard it, not just Cloud.

At the beguinning of the game for example.

Cloud is warned by a mysterious voice that reactor they are in is not normal.

People theorize that's the planet talking to him; even if we know Cloud is not an Ancient, the way to explain that would be his massive spiritual power(which is also why in LO his eyes glowed as if he were a member of SOLDIER, when he was not).

Also, once agin there is a flaw in your arguement. If will=spiit energy then Cloud cannot match Sephiroth. As you have repeatedly pointed outSephiroth's will is stated as being the strongest out there.

Small correction, It's stated that there is nothing stronger than or above Sephiroth.

Cloud would be nearing spiritual power as strong but never stronger than Sephiroth himself.

Like the compilation repeats from time to time again, they're rivals. Both physicaly and spiritualy.

Cloud's spirit energy is on par with Sephiroth's; otherwise he wouldn't have been able to completely butcher Seph's soul in AC/C.

It could also have been attributed to plot; I mean they had to have Sephiroth's soul stop barring Holy somehow.

In terms of willpower alone Sephiroth might be unmatched. But the facts show us that will=/= spirit energy, and common sense tells us Sephiroth's own spirirt energy cannot surpass the lifestream, given that the lifestream is comprised of the collective spirirt energy of everything that has lived and died on the planet. That includes every SOLDIER, every cetra, every unenhanced human, every animal, and every plant that has ever lived and died. Thats trillions of souls at least, including guys like Zack and Angeal for crying out loud.

IIRC in Maiden Zack has not joined the Lifestream yet, and that's after Aerith died. He like Cloud and Sephiroth is one of the few people with a spirit strong enough to resist the pull(however he said he was slowly being joined to the flow).

But why couldn't his spirit energy be that powerful? Heck in his soul form his will kept barring Holy.

There's no way Will is anything other than spiritual power, when Sephiroth's will is what kept barring holy from moving and even after he died.

Willpower is the strenght of your soul, most likely. No other way to stop a planetary force from moving with your personality.

Sephiroth's will is unmatched, not his spirit energy.

One and the same, friend.

Willpower is the power of your will, ie. Soul/spirit etc..

They also said ACC Sephiroth's existance is above everything.

 

[Roger]

After FFVII he ended up having to surrender the vast majority of his memories,including that of his physical appearance just to keep from dispersing, and even then he still needed Cloud to act as sort of an anchor for him.

Sephiroth focused his being on one thing that he felt strongly about, but it was still all Sephiroth's willpower.

But still, if raw power is what this tier list is about, we should make some changes.

Azul>Zack, Genesis, Angeal and perhaps Cloud for instance.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Are you sure about that?

Have you even imagined how powerful Sephiroth's soul is?

I'll repeat, It's strong enough to outright defy the lifestream's pull and hold back the planet's divine judgement.

Sephiroth himself was going to subjulgate the entire thing after meteor gathered the lifestream.

That and the fact the lifestream is completely unable to do anything against the corruption caused by Sephiroth's soul, tell me his existance is certainly above the lifestream; as teh creator's quotes tell us.

He wouldn't be able to subjulgate trillions of souls to his own dominion if his very original soul was not powerful enough to do so.

Given that he has to conquer the Lifestream one small portion at a time, add the conquered portion to his power, and then move on to take down another portion, is Sephiroth's extremely slow, painstaking subjugation of the stream really a reasonable indication that he as a single individual is more powerful than the entire stream of souls circulating the planet? That, to me, seems like saying that Zack or any other member of SOLDIER was more powerful than the entire Lifestream because they were able to subjugate a portion of it infused into their bodies to make them into SOLDIERs.

For that matter, it wouldn't even make sense to say that they were more powerful than that one small portion they conquered. Yeah, their will/sense of identity/individuality/heart of the cards was strong enough that they would be the dominant consciousness after the procedure, but they undoubtedly were not already more potent than the energy they received.

Sephiroth's process of taking over the Lifestream is more like Rambo's process of taking down the bad guys. He might rack up dozens of kills per movie, but he takes his enemies down one, two or a few at a time. He didn't perform all 83 of his kills from "Rambo" in a single scene.

As Lord Noctis said, at best, if that quote about Sephiroth's existence ("Advent Children producer Yoshinori Kitase has said, Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him") really can be taken at face value (which I have lingering doubts about; I'll get to them in a moment), then it could only apply during AC/C. During FFVII, the Lifestream definitely had more power than Seph considering that he had to steal its power to cast Meteor, and even that for the purpose of gaining more of the planet's power.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that he was greater than the Lifestream during AC/C given that he'd been consuming it for two years and had JENOVA's power on top of that. We don't really know how much of the pure stream he'd converted, so it's not beyond reason that -- with what he'd already accumulated, plus JENOVA's power -- he was literally the greatest power in the world at that point. Certainly Aerith wasn't able to do diddly dick to challenge Seph until Cloud weakened him.

But during FFVII itself? No way. Completely undermines and contradicts the plot.

By the way, to explain my doubts about the "There is nothing greater" quote, given that we know Kitase had -- in the director's commentary of the original Japanese AC DVD -- said that other line about there never being any character more powerful than Seph, it's possible Nomura's secondhand summary of Kitase's words may have been in reference to that. Maybe Kitase made a second, broader statement in private with Nomura, and Nomura's secondhand account of it really was accurate.

Just saying that it's not like we have Kitase's actual quote, so there's room for doubt -- especially since it's Nomura.

Consistency isn't that guy's strong suit.

Not exactly.

He did say that the spirits that return to the planet form the lifestream.

He didn't exactly say where spirits come from, he just said that every new life brought into the world is blessed with It.

Returning to the planet might as well mean they're return to the cosmos, since in DoC we see that the planet is treated as a part of the universe It'self.

I mean, if It were like that, how would the lifestream even grow?

Though this isn't related to the other topic we were discussing, I thought I should address it.

The Lifestream grows from the memories accumulated by the souls it sends out to give life to new creatures. The procedure is explained in several Ultimanias (click here for just one example), as well as FF: The Spirits Within.

While the energy giving birth to a planet does initially come from somewhere in the cosmos, once the planet is established, its Lifestream gives life to the creatures that are born on it. They grow, have experiences, and die. The memories of those experiences then return to the Lifestream along with the soul, and those memories turn into new spirit energy.

At the beguinning of the game for example.

Cloud is warned by a mysterious voice that reactor they are in is not normal.

People theorize that's the planet talking to him; even if we know Cloud is not an Ancient, the way to explain that would be his massive spiritual power(which is also why in LO his eyes glowed as if he were a member of SOLDIER, when he was not).

Page 68 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega explains that the voice in question was Cloud's subconscious trying to get him to remember who he really was. It was trying to call his attention to the similarities between that place and the Mt. Nibel reactor -- the latter being the focal point for his fudged up memories.

You'll recall that the next time Cloud stood in the heart of a reactor (during the second bombing mission), his mind did have a flashback to the Mt. Nibel reactor and the massacre of the town. Still didn't straighten out his memories just yet, but it was an ongoing process.

Long story short, planet didn't talk to him.

But still, if raw power is what this tier list is about, we should make some changes.


Azul>Zack, Genesis, Angeal and perhaps Cloud for instance.

How do you figure he's stronger than all three of them?

 

[Roger]

How do you figure he's stronger than all three of them?

Not all of them, but his mako levels are certainly higher then any of them.

 

[Wolfmania]

Given that he has to conquer the Lifestream one small portion at a time, add the conquered portion to his power, and then move on to take down another portion, is Sephiroth's extremely slow, painstaking subjugation of the stream really a reasonable indication that he as a single individual is more powerful than the entire stream of souls circulating the planet? That, to me, seems like saying that Zack or any other member of SOLDIER was more powerful than the entire Lifestream because they were able to subjugate a portion of it infused into their bodies to make them into SOLDIERs.

Well he is able to resist It's pull and completely defy It's will isn't he?

I mean, if the Lifestream really possesed that much power wouldn't It be able to rid It'self of this insignificant soul? Heck I'm not even talking about who has more mako, but Sephiroth's soul is potent enough that the Lifestream practically can't do anything to him.

It fought him twice already and lost both times.

Mako injections don't equal to subjulgating the will of the living lifestream.

What Sephiroth did, was defy subjulgation to the current of souls It'self.

Not only that, but his soul also held Holy from moving.

For that matter, it wouldn't even make sense to say that they were more powerful than that one small portion they conquered. Yeah, their will/sense of identity/individuality/heart of the cards was strong enough that they would be the dominant consciousness after the procedure, but they undoubtedly were not already more potent than the energy they received.

SOLDIERS being injected with mako isn't like Sephiroth putting the Lifestream under his dominion.

Well then how did Seph subjulgate the current in the first place? Certainly not with one's individuality or identity; a part of the lifestream would posses millions of souls at the least.

The only way I see one singular soul, take dominance over such a number, would be if this soul's power were great enough to exert dominance over the other's.

2 + 1 = 3

As Lord Noctis said, at best, if that quote about Sephiroth's existence ("Advent Children producer Yoshinori Kitase has said, Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him") really can be taken at face value (which I have lingering doubts about; I'll get to them in a moment), then it could only apply during AC/C. During FFVII, the Lifestream definitely had more power than Seph considering that he had to steal its power to cast Meteor, and even that for the purpose of gaining more of the planet's power. I'm willing to entertain the notion that he was greater than the Lifestream during AC/C given that he'd been consuming it for two years and had JENOVA's power on top of that. We don't really know how much of the pure stream he'd converted, so it's not beyond reason that -- with what he'd already accumulated, plus JENOVA's power -- he was literally the greatest power in the world at that point. Certainly Aerith wasn't able to do diddly dick to challenge Seph until Cloud weakened him.

But during FFVII itself? No way. Completely undermines and contradicts the plot.

I'll agree that the quotes are talking about AC/C Sephiroth.

The response to the other things is on my above points.

Though this isn't related to the other topic we were discussing, I thought I should address it.

The Lifestream grows from the memories accumulated by the souls it sends out to give life to new creatures. The procedure is explained in several Ultimanias (click here for just one example), as well as FF: The Spirits Within.

While the energy giving birth to a planet does initially come from somewhere in the cosmos, once the planet is established, its Lifestream gives life to the creatures that are born on it. They grow, have experiences, and die. The memories of those experiences then return to the Lifestream along with the soul, and those memories turn into new spirit energy.

Point taken.

Page 68 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega explains that the voice in question was Cloud's subconscious trying to get him to remember who he really was. It was trying to call his attention to the similarities between that place and the Mt. Nibel reactor -- the latter being the focal point for his fudged up memories.

You'll recall that the next time Cloud stood in the heart of a reactor (during the second bombing mission), his mind did have a flashback to the Mt. Nibel reactor and the massacre of the town. Still didn't straighten out his memories just yet, but it was an ongoing process.

Long story short, planet didn't talk to him.

Point taken.

Not all of them, but his mako levels are certainly higher then any of them.

Who has more mako energy isn't nescessarily the most powerful, other things such as Jenova Cells or they're own spiritual power come into play.

Well the Restrictor and Chaos are both stronger than him; so I doubt Genesis whom is Weiss's progenitor of sorts would be weaker than the Restrictor. Not to mention Genesis was kinda accepted by the planet as It's final WEAPON so he's also stronger than Chaos as well.

Cloud, well considering he hangs with Sephiroth's transcendental form in strenght, he's really only second to Sephiroth in FFVII.

I mean we do know that CC Sephiroth was the strongest person in the world at the time, heck he was even able to cut off Jenova's head.

 

[Roger]

Kinda the point I'm trying to make here Wolfmania. With Mako visibly popping out his very veins, I'm sure he's got more mako in him then Cloud. He, and Zack too for that matter, would still squash him like a bug, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are entirely made of Negative Lifestream, Cloud's stronger then all o' them too, in fact, I doubt Kadaj has more Negative Lifestream then the other two yet he's still visibly stronger then them. Actual common denominator between the strong guys, the strength of their will. THAT'S what matters, Lifestream needs Aeriths will guiding it to even moderately get it's **** together, and even then it's not truly capable of challenging Sephiroth like Cloud can. A Lifestream under Sephiroth's will would be the most powerful thing ever, but until those two get together I'm gonna put my money on Sephiroth cause the Lifestream always struck me as the bottom in that relationship.

 

[Wolfmania]

Kinda the point I'm trying to make here Wolfmania. With Mako visibly popping out his very veins, I'm sure he's got more mako in him then Cloud. He, and Zack too for that matter, would still squash him like a bug, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are entirely made of Negative Lifestream, Cloud's stronger then all o' them too, in fact, I doubt Kadaj has more Negative Lifestream then the other two yet he's still visibly stronger then them. Actual common denominator between the strong guys, the strength of their will. THAT'S what matters, Lifestream needs Aeriths will guiding it to even moderately get it's **** together, and even then it's not truly capable of challenging Sephiroth like Cloud can. A Lifestream under Sephiroth's will would be the most powerful thing ever, but until those two get together I'm gonna put my money on Sephiroth cause the Lifestream always struck me as the bottom in that relationship.

Oh...well then, my bad.

I agree.

I mean, wouldn't the strenght of one's will basically be the strenght of one's soul?

Not the amount of spiritual energy/magical power one person has, but the strenght of the one soul It'self.

As in quality > quantity?

Hell it granted Sephiroth a power to dwarf even Holy, resist the lifestream, etc..

So to me this list still looks like this:

1 - AC/C Sephiroth

2 - AC/C Cloud

3 - EoCC Zack/Kadaj (if the Reunion Files is correct in they're statement, he would be above Zack; since he'd be equal to FFVII Sephiroth)

4 - EoCC Genesis

5 - Chaos Vince/Omega Weiss

6 - Probably the various WEAPONS

7 - The Other Remnants/Tsviets

8 - Various SOLDIERS/DeepGround Operatives

9 - AVALANCHE