Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
I've seen a few people refer to him as "Veld Dragoon" but am unsure of whether that is a canon or fanon surname. Can anyone cite this from canon (ideally with screen caps)? Thanks!
Veld's last name?
- Thread starter Ravynne Nevyrmore
- Start date
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's definitely a fanon name (as far as I know, drakonlily coined it) and tbh I don't like it. It seems pretty obvious to me that Veld (or Verdot, depending on how you transliterate the name) is his surname. My own head canon states that if they had a South Africa in their world, Veld would be from it - or maybe he'd be a Rhodie, a white Zimbabwean - and he alternates between the Boer and the Huguenot spelling of his name.
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
Cool, thanks. I thought as much but was receiving conflicting reports. And hey, we've seen characters given dumber surnames. And dumber first-names-that-should-have-been-last-names. (I'm looking at you, Gast Faremis.)
CameoAmalthea
Pro Adventurer
With Gast my issue is that generally Professor is followed by last name, not first - it seems weird that you'd call someone Professor First name. In law school it was always weird where there'd be socials outside of class and it would be first name instead of Professor last name because you're used to the formality - but I'd never imagine mixing the formality of calling someone Professor with the informality of calling someone their first name.
I do however like Veld as a first name because I like to think most Turks abandon their surnames when they become Turks (a convention that in my head canon happened after Vincent's time - since none of the other Turks seem to have last names and some of the names - like Elena - are clearly first names)
I don't like the Dragoon fanon (and I'm friends with people IRL who were part of the subgroup that coined it and other fanon like Veld being with Vincent and being a Bunny). To me it seems cheesy to use class names as last names.
Personally I like using Verdot pronounced Ver - dough because it's a sort of pun on Green Field since Veld if a field and a Petit Verdot is a small green grape. I also like splitting the difference on translations.
I recognize that some find this problematic because it's creating a difference where phonetically there isn't one to the Japanese, but I don't intend to mock Japanese people or phonetic translations. Rather, I'd like to use both translations and I'm find with characters who have similar first and last names - Jean Valjean's a thing right?
I think everyone should be allowed to have whatever fanon they want and conflicting headcanons should not be seen as 'wrong'. I hate it when popular head canons are asserted as 'no that's his name" 'no that's his characterization' 'no this is right because X person says so and they're the best at writing this character/practically are this character'...
Like - I've written a lot about Rufus, my headcanons are reasoned out and I can argue them - but I'd never insist anyone else adopt them. Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has written about Nunchaku - so my headcanons may be among the only out there (at least on FF.net) but that doesn't make them true - you're free to take them- I'm flattered- but people should never insist that their headcanon is best.
And I will say - this headcanon problem might be especially bad with BC because you can't play the game and a lot of fans get in via word of mouth from friends. So like someone might only know Veld as the fanon Veld Dragoon and base everything on what they're told rather than the game.
And even though I have read the transcripts and watched the play through and studied the character as he features in some of my fics - I have to admit Lic's Death is Part of the Process was a big influence on how I see Veld - though I don't adopt her name head canon even though I appreciate it.
Though sometimes I wish we did have more canon information - if only because less fighting. I wonder how it was when Zack was given a canon last name and suddenly things like Brightsword weren't canon.
I do however like Veld as a first name because I like to think most Turks abandon their surnames when they become Turks (a convention that in my head canon happened after Vincent's time - since none of the other Turks seem to have last names and some of the names - like Elena - are clearly first names)
I don't like the Dragoon fanon (and I'm friends with people IRL who were part of the subgroup that coined it and other fanon like Veld being with Vincent and being a Bunny). To me it seems cheesy to use class names as last names.
Personally I like using Verdot pronounced Ver - dough because it's a sort of pun on Green Field since Veld if a field and a Petit Verdot is a small green grape. I also like splitting the difference on translations.
I recognize that some find this problematic because it's creating a difference where phonetically there isn't one to the Japanese, but I don't intend to mock Japanese people or phonetic translations. Rather, I'd like to use both translations and I'm find with characters who have similar first and last names - Jean Valjean's a thing right?
I think everyone should be allowed to have whatever fanon they want and conflicting headcanons should not be seen as 'wrong'. I hate it when popular head canons are asserted as 'no that's his name" 'no that's his characterization' 'no this is right because X person says so and they're the best at writing this character/practically are this character'...
Like - I've written a lot about Rufus, my headcanons are reasoned out and I can argue them - but I'd never insist anyone else adopt them. Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has written about Nunchaku - so my headcanons may be among the only out there (at least on FF.net) but that doesn't make them true - you're free to take them- I'm flattered- but people should never insist that their headcanon is best.
And I will say - this headcanon problem might be especially bad with BC because you can't play the game and a lot of fans get in via word of mouth from friends. So like someone might only know Veld as the fanon Veld Dragoon and base everything on what they're told rather than the game.
And even though I have read the transcripts and watched the play through and studied the character as he features in some of my fics - I have to admit Lic's Death is Part of the Process was a big influence on how I see Veld - though I don't adopt her name head canon even though I appreciate it.
Though sometimes I wish we did have more canon information - if only because less fighting. I wonder how it was when Zack was given a canon last name and suddenly things like Brightsword weren't canon.
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Starling
Pro Adventurer
Using teachers as an example, I was only expected to refer to them by their last names for the first few years of my education before using their first name became the norm. People who are doctors or professors being referred to by their first name doesn't seem odd to me at all and has happened in my day to day life.
I've seen that headcanon about Turk surnames and with Cissnei not even using her actual name, it makes enough sense to be plausible, while offering a reasonable explanation for Vincent being the only Turk/former Turk with a full name.
I like thinking of Verdot (which I pronounce as if it's a french name) as an alias Veld uses.
I dislike the use of fanon as the base of a character rather than what you can find of their canon depictions because I've seen it lead to some pretty bad characterization treated as if it's canon.
I much prefer when fanfic writers specify that say, elements of BC will be included but won't really attempt to follow its continuity for reasons like the writer not wanting to delve into all of it or not being able to find enough accurate info about the game. Taking the time to specify stuff like that means readers who are more familiar with BC will know the inaccuracies aren't due to poor research on the part of someone who hasn't played the game.
The issue with names like Bightsword, Dragoon and Sinclair are that they don't feel like they belong. With the amount of FF7 characters besides the Turks who don't have one, you could simply avoid the surnames and maybe go with FF7 taking place in a world where surnames haven't been standardized. I mean when they started becoming a thing in real life, not every country adopted them at once and they didn't all use the same naming conventions. It'd be cool to see someone try to apply that in a fic.
I've seen that headcanon about Turk surnames and with Cissnei not even using her actual name, it makes enough sense to be plausible, while offering a reasonable explanation for Vincent being the only Turk/former Turk with a full name.
I like thinking of Verdot (which I pronounce as if it's a french name) as an alias Veld uses.
I dislike the use of fanon as the base of a character rather than what you can find of their canon depictions because I've seen it lead to some pretty bad characterization treated as if it's canon.
I much prefer when fanfic writers specify that say, elements of BC will be included but won't really attempt to follow its continuity for reasons like the writer not wanting to delve into all of it or not being able to find enough accurate info about the game. Taking the time to specify stuff like that means readers who are more familiar with BC will know the inaccuracies aren't due to poor research on the part of someone who hasn't played the game.
The issue with names like Bightsword, Dragoon and Sinclair are that they don't feel like they belong. With the amount of FF7 characters besides the Turks who don't have one, you could simply avoid the surnames and maybe go with FF7 taking place in a world where surnames haven't been standardized. I mean when they started becoming a thing in real life, not every country adopted them at once and they didn't all use the same naming conventions. It'd be cool to see someone try to apply that in a fic.
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
this is something that ffvii does oddly with any non-japanese name in general (which would be hojo which sounds like a family name but we don't have a full name for him). dirge of cerberus has lucrecia being called 'prof. lucrecia' in the japanese game.
perhaps because in japanese names go 'family - given' and honorific suffixes go on the family name, but western names as commonly rendered 'given - family', it feels better to add the honorific to the name that comes first even though in english that sounds wrong
(i'm talking without any kind of backing or evidence here)
CameoAmalthea
Pro Adventurer
It's a nice theory - sort of misunderstanding of how English honorifics work given that Westerners, particularly Americans, are generally informal (first name basis for everyone - even work superiors many places with the only exception being teachers but as Starling mentioned that's not consistent).
So like with Western honorifics isn't consiseant and it does make sense in a country that goes by first name you'd go title Title First Name - but that's just not how it's done - I guess because in terms of formality the first thing you drop is title, then surname.
Someone named John Smith would be:
Mr. Smith
Smith
John
In order of formality - and in most cases would be called John - but if you want to use a title to denote doctor or professor then it has to be Title Last name because of formality order?
I think it's fine if you want to write or be a fan of 'fanon character' - but I think you should be able to distinguish fanon from canon - and not hold fanon (yours or anyone else's out as fact).
I think it's possible to be a fan of a fan work and that's fine - I've cosplayed a version of Cloud from a crack Cloud/Seph AU because my husband is a huge fan of that fic/pairing - we wanted to play in that world - those versions of the character.
I made a thread on this forum for discussion of the fic "Death if Part of the Process" because I'm a fan of it and want to fangirl over those versions of the characters because I love them.
However - I can distinguish between BC and DIPOTP - I like Lic's Rufus, but her Rufus is not my Rufus, and neither of our Rufus are 'canon' Rufus - it's our interpretation of the character and what story we want to tell/explore.
So like, I have a friend who rps as Veld Dragoon on tumbler, because she's IRL friends with KingofBearTraps who is online friend's with Draconlilly and shaped her view of Veld out of Vincent/Veld headcanons shared with Drac. Kingofbeartraps told my friend about this version of Veld and her ship and head canons- my friend likes that and she plays that - and that's fine. I think it's fine to be fans of versions and play in whatever universe you want - even if it is a derivative one.
But I think you should credit where fanon came from - even if it's just names. So like - none of the BC Turks are named - if I call my Gun Rosalind I'll give credit to Gun Shot Romance, if I call my Knife Aviva I'll give credit to Lic - if someone wants to use my version of Nunchaku - awesome - I'm thrilled - but cite it so people can trace ideas back and not muddle canon and fanon.
That way people who want a certain version of characters can find that - but people who don't like that version can avoid it - and people can be free to build their own head canons and interpretations if they want too do so.
Fanon is like Kudzo - it grows and spreads and quickly we lose trace of where it came from and it's just assumed as fact because we don't know where it came from:
And I think it's fine with fanon spreads subconsciously - I only know they were inspired by my cat because they realized it upon becoming friends with me and seeing my cat - at which point they were like 'OMG that's the cat! I remember, I saw your video before I ever knew you'. When something is subconsciously adopted and organically spreads that's pretty unavoidable. However, I think when you consciously take things from others you should mention your influences in a note so it doesn't like the fanon just came out of nowhere/blurs with confirmed canon.
In my experience teachers were always Title Last Name, although in high school more casual addresses being simply last name (e.g. Smith instead of Mr. Smith). In law school some professors signed their emails with first names and accepted first names, but it was a hard habit to break. Although I think formality varies by person - it's very hard for me to address a teacher by their first name because I respect teachers and want to show deference/ training of addressing teachers that way throughout high school and much of college. In work situations I was never trained to call anyone Mr. because I worked at places where the corporate culture was first name only on name tags - so I it's easier for me personally to call a work superior first name in a we're all colleagues here way than adjust to calling a professor their first name.
A friend and I were in the same copyright class and fortunate to be taking a class with a visiting professor with a doctorate from Harvard as well as two law degrees (one from Harvard one from Taiwan). And she had over to her house for dinner towards the end of the year as Professors regularly take the class out to dinner or have them over with small classes and we were welcome to bring our spouses (there were like 4 of us in this class). It felt so weird when she introduced herself to my husband as Shun-Ling because in my head she is Professor Chen or Dr. Chen - no matter how nice, or young, or casual - in my head the level she's at I want to show deference. (ok maybe I fan girl over teachers a bit). And my friend agreed that it felt weird - but I think that's personal for us.
A friend and I were in the same copyright class and fortunate to be taking a class with a visiting professor with a doctorate from Harvard as well as two law degrees (one from Harvard one from Taiwan). And she had over to her house for dinner towards the end of the year as Professors regularly take the class out to dinner or have them over with small classes and we were welcome to bring our spouses (there were like 4 of us in this class). It felt so weird when she introduced herself to my husband as Shun-Ling because in my head she is Professor Chen or Dr. Chen - no matter how nice, or young, or casual - in my head the level she's at I want to show deference. (ok maybe I fan girl over teachers a bit). And my friend agreed that it felt weird - but I think that's personal for us.
So like with Western honorifics isn't consiseant and it does make sense in a country that goes by first name you'd go title Title First Name - but that's just not how it's done - I guess because in terms of formality the first thing you drop is title, then surname.
Someone named John Smith would be:
Mr. Smith
Smith
John
In order of formality - and in most cases would be called John - but if you want to use a title to denote doctor or professor then it has to be Title Last name because of formality order?
I think it's fine if you want to write or be a fan of 'fanon character' - but I think you should be able to distinguish fanon from canon - and not hold fanon (yours or anyone else's out as fact).
I think it's possible to be a fan of a fan work and that's fine - I've cosplayed a version of Cloud from a crack Cloud/Seph AU because my husband is a huge fan of that fic/pairing - we wanted to play in that world - those versions of the character.
I made a thread on this forum for discussion of the fic "Death if Part of the Process" because I'm a fan of it and want to fangirl over those versions of the characters because I love them.
However - I can distinguish between BC and DIPOTP - I like Lic's Rufus, but her Rufus is not my Rufus, and neither of our Rufus are 'canon' Rufus - it's our interpretation of the character and what story we want to tell/explore.
So like, I have a friend who rps as Veld Dragoon on tumbler, because she's IRL friends with KingofBearTraps who is online friend's with Draconlilly and shaped her view of Veld out of Vincent/Veld headcanons shared with Drac. Kingofbeartraps told my friend about this version of Veld and her ship and head canons- my friend likes that and she plays that - and that's fine. I think it's fine to be fans of versions and play in whatever universe you want - even if it is a derivative one.
But I think you should credit where fanon came from - even if it's just names. So like - none of the BC Turks are named - if I call my Gun Rosalind I'll give credit to Gun Shot Romance, if I call my Knife Aviva I'll give credit to Lic - if someone wants to use my version of Nunchaku - awesome - I'm thrilled - but cite it so people can trace ideas back and not muddle canon and fanon.
That way people who want a certain version of characters can find that - but people who don't like that version can avoid it - and people can be free to build their own head canons and interpretations if they want too do so.
Fanon is like Kudzo - it grows and spreads and quickly we lose trace of where it came from and it's just assumed as fact because we don't know where it came from:
Here's an example.
Lic writes a fic where Rufus has a pet tabby cat.
I - a Rufus cosplayer - am a fan of the fic and like animals. I adopt tabby kitten that catches my eye because it looks exactly like the one in the story and by coincidence takes an immediate shine to me despite being an otherwise vicious feral (he's a good kitty now - mostly)
While doing a photoshoot as Rufus the cat starts playing with the bandages I was using for the cosplay and we stop to film the kitten. My dog, Dark Nation, being jealousy and needy, starts licking my face because I'm paying attention to something that isn't him.
We post a funny youtube video of me in Rufus Cosplay playing with cute animals - not intended as a in character cosplay video so much as a cute animals video - but the cosplay element draws fans because the idea of Rufus playing with baby animals is cute/silly.
Some FFVII fans see the video and promptly forget it - but subconsciously get the image in their head that Rufus has an orange tabby.
They incorporate it into their head canons - and don't know why they think Rufus has a cat but it's their head canon now.
Rufus likes cats/has an ordinary tabby can then spread as fanon - to the point it becomes just 'one of those things'.
Lic writes a fic where Rufus has a pet tabby cat.
I - a Rufus cosplayer - am a fan of the fic and like animals. I adopt tabby kitten that catches my eye because it looks exactly like the one in the story and by coincidence takes an immediate shine to me despite being an otherwise vicious feral (he's a good kitty now - mostly)
While doing a photoshoot as Rufus the cat starts playing with the bandages I was using for the cosplay and we stop to film the kitten. My dog, Dark Nation, being jealousy and needy, starts licking my face because I'm paying attention to something that isn't him.
We post a funny youtube video of me in Rufus Cosplay playing with cute animals - not intended as a in character cosplay video so much as a cute animals video - but the cosplay element draws fans because the idea of Rufus playing with baby animals is cute/silly.
Some FFVII fans see the video and promptly forget it - but subconsciously get the image in their head that Rufus has an orange tabby.
They incorporate it into their head canons - and don't know why they think Rufus has a cat but it's their head canon now.
Rufus likes cats/has an ordinary tabby can then spread as fanon - to the point it becomes just 'one of those things'.
And I think it's fine with fanon spreads subconsciously - I only know they were inspired by my cat because they realized it upon becoming friends with me and seeing my cat - at which point they were like 'OMG that's the cat! I remember, I saw your video before I ever knew you'. When something is subconsciously adopted and organically spreads that's pretty unavoidable. However, I think when you consciously take things from others you should mention your influences in a note so it doesn't like the fanon just came out of nowhere/blurs with confirmed canon.