Villain Rating

[Jason Tandro]

So I decided that I would come up with spreadsheet to try and semi-objectively rate the villains in the Final Fantasy series. I started with 1 through X-2 trying to focus on the "main" villains. Obviously this system needs some refinement, which is why I wanted to get your alls input. Here are the current categories I have and the rating. I use a 1, 3, 5 rating structure for simplicity:


Apocalypse
1 - Create a situation that could have led to the end of the world, but dealt no permanent or long-term damage.
3 - Destroyed much of the world / led to long term damage but did not actually end the world.
5 - Actually started an apocalypse from which the world had to recover.

PC Murder (murders by subordinates count).
1 - Killed no playable character.
3 - Killed one playable character.
5 - Killed more than one playable character.

Control
1 - Can control or influence others through manipulation but holds no actual power.
3 - Is a figure of some power, with a following, but does not control a kingdom / the world.
5 - Owns a kingdom or the world of their own, even through possession or manipulation.

Infamy
1 - Only a handful of people knew who they were or that they were truly controlling events.
3 - People knew of them but only considered them a mild or partial threat.
5 - Everybody knew of and feared this person.

Character
1 - An uninteresting and undeveloped character.
3 - A character with personality but not very well defined.
5 - A great character.


On that basis here's what I have so far.

But it feels incomplete and perhaps my FF6 bias is showing. What other categories do you feel make up the perfect villain and how would your rate them? Would you use a different rating system altogether? Let's workshop this, people! We need an answer! FOR SCIENCE!

 

[Kuja9001]

Honestly, the body count doesn't play a factor in my choice of villains.

It's 99% of their character for me 1% other(design, music).

Kuja, Caius, and Seymour rank high on my personal list because of their ties to humanity whether it's though fear, loss, or pure charisma.

Can someone describe FFXII's villain in the least spoilerly way possible? Is he or it a good character?

 

[RedFFWolf]

Can someone describe FFXII's villain in the least spoilerly way possible? Is he or it a good character?

Even as someone who really enjoyed FFXII, I'd say he/she/it was forgettable in comparison to other FF villains. To put it one way: at times, it felt like you were more up against what you could call a "plural", rather than a "singular" (individual). And, like how most games tend to have more than one antagonistic figure, I wouldn't consider the main one in FFXII high above the others in terms of leading antagonism, if you were to rank them. But, he/she/it did feel "more real", someone/something more relatable to our physical world.

However, it has been a while since I've played, so maybe someone a little more versed could provide a greater justified response.

 

[Flare]

Perhaps charisma could be another category, or fame? Because the villains that are widely supported have got to be pretty frightening too. I know you have 'controlling a kingdom', but perhaps being popular, I.e. Fame, would be an interesting category.
Also, what about betrayal? Rating someone on who've they betrayed and how many would be interesting, such as betraying their own country or betraying someone who loved them?

 

[Jason Tandro]

Good suggestions. Fame vs Infamy is an interesting concept and Betrayal does add to the level of nefariousness. Charisma could be fascinating but it's also rather subjective.

 

[Starling]

Doesn't Kefka rate a 3 on infamy until he absorbs all magic and tears the world apart? I think rating a villain should include how dangerous they are, how competent they are at what they're doing, genre savviness, intelligence and how hard they are to get rid of. Murder and ending the world aren't the only lasting effects a villain can have.

 

[Splintered]

Can someone describe FFXII's villain in the least spoilerly way possible? Is he or it a good character?

Even as someone who really enjoyed FFXII, I'd say he/she/it was forgettable in comparison to other FF villains. To put it one way: at times, it felt like you were more up against what you could call a "plural", rather than a "singular" (individual). And, like how most games tend to have more than one antagonistic figure, I wouldn't consider the main one in FFXII high above the others in terms of leading antagonism, if you were to rank them. But, he/she/it did feel "more real", someone/something more relatable to our physical world.

However, it has been a while since I've played, so maybe someone a little more versed could provide a greater justified response.

I'd say that they are probably the least theatrical and dramatic of the villains, but they are pretty well developed characters, or at least the most real worldish as you said.

I don't actually think that the hero and bad guy relationship is where you see most of them, the scenes where the villains interact with each other are more important, so th consolidation of the villain's power is almost completely separate from the main storyline. So it's incredibly easy to forget them altogether.

I'm with Kuja when it comes to picking favorites. Honestly Caius is probably not a very good villain but I loved his background story and charisma enough that he rocketed to my favorite. And Kuja has a ton of character failings as the big bad, but that just made him a dynamic, interesting character and he's also one of my favorite. I like Kefka and he makes a fantastic villain but I've never been able to emotionally attach myself to him like the other two.

 

[aszach01]

Out of all these categories the most important thing is the "character" on how you define a villain or the character itself.

Unfortunately I saw your list and you gave Kefka a 5 whereit's pretty clear out of all theFF villains or atleast for the ones i've played Kefka is the least developed character.

 

[Flintlock]

Which playable character does Kefka murder?

Come to think of it, the same goes for Golbez. Most characters that "die" in IV don't actually die. The one that does,

Spoiler

Tellah

, sacrifices himself.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Which playable character does Kefka murder?

Come to think of it, the same goes for Golbez. Most characters that "die" in IV don't actually die. The one that does,

Spoiler

Tellah

, sacrifices himself.

I counted "resulted in death" as a murder on the first pass at this.

Spoiler

For Golbez it was P & P and tellah. I never finished that fame all the way tho... got to the moon. For Kefka, while this may be cheap, I counted General Leo.

All the more reason this needs refinement.

@aszach01: You are... very very wrong about this statement. We see Kefka the entire time. He's a constant threat. We see him from the first couple of hours in and are given lots of development with him. He doesn't have a true character arc, but he is an extremely well defined and developed character.

 

[Roger]

Shuyin is effectively a 3 or 5 in contol given that he controls the leaders of the Youth League and new yevon. Also Kuja was relatively obscure wasn't he?

 

[Flare]

I'd actually like to see XII's villain on the list too, as like Splintered said they're pretty realistic. I always found XII's characters to be more gray than black and white, and I like that. The villain/s have their own agendas, and while some are petty and very much in the 'black' morality (they just want power mwahaha, ect), the major ones

Spoiler: spoiler tags just in case

like Vayne, Cidolfus, and Venat,

have their own ideals and are for the most part doing what they're doing because they think it's ultimately good for humanity.

Also, XIII's villain/s would be fun too.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I think we might have to have another voting thing but I want to hold off on this for a while since I think we're all getting poll burn out with the music contest and the TLS awards. But we should keep up the discussion so we can pool this into a fine-tuned system.

 

[Splintered]

@aszach01: You are... very very wrong about this statement. We see Kefka the entire time. He's a constant threat. We see him from the first couple of hours in and are given lots of development with him. He doesn't have a true character arc, but he is an extremely well defined and developed character.

I figure this is just a difference in the term development, at first I thought you meant character development like someone who evolves or changes throughout the course of a narrative. Kefka is a flat, static character that only really changes in severity of threat and insanity. He's an extreme caricature, but that's okay because it fits the story and help it contrast with Celes and Terra, who change a lot throughout the story.

He's meant to be that way, his one note crazy helps make him creepier and more fun. *shrugs*

I honestly don't know which main villain would be considered to have character development. Maybe... Kuja? Most villains that do change tend to because they are unraveling.

 

[Starling]

Maybe TvT could give you ideas on some more stuff to consider when rating villains. Stuff like if they manage to avoid the villain ball more often than not, though most do.

 

[Flintlock]

I counted "resulted in death" as a murder on the first pass at this.

Spoiler

For Golbez it was P & P and tellah. I never finished that fame all the way tho... got to the moon. For Kefka, while this may be cheap, I counted General Leo.

All the more reason this needs refinement.

You should finish IV.

I'd forgotten that

Spoiler

Leo

is temporarily playable. I only remember the scripted battle involving him.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I figure this is just a difference in the term development, at first I thought you meant character development like someone who evolves or changes throughout the course of a narrative. Kefka is a flat, static character that only really changes in severity of threat and insanity. He's an extreme caricature, but that's okay because it fits the story and help it contrast with Celes and Terra, who change a lot throughout the story.

He's meant to be that way, his one note crazy helps make him creepier and more fun. *shrugs*

I honestly don't know which main villain would be considered to have character development. Maybe... Kuja? Most villains that do change tend to because they are unraveling.

Again I feel you are confusing "development"- where a character's motivations (regardless how flat) are fleshed out and explained- with a character arc or being "dynamic" or having an arc.

A static character can still be well developed. If you want a perfect example of a character who is incredibly well developed but doesn't undergo a serious character arc (at least in the OG), is Sephiroth. True he does have an arc during the events of Crisis Core and if you want to get technical he has an arc during the flashback but it's an incredibly condensed arc.

Furthermore, in the book Final Fantasy and Philosophy it's argued that Kefka does have a character arc. In the W.O.B. he is narcisstic and full on insane, but when he absorbs all the magics and shit in the W.O.R. he switches to nihilistic.

Yeah... I'm not sure I buy that explanation either, but it's a theory.

Perhaps we should go with two categories? Character- how well we know the character and Development- how much the character evolves.

 

[Abortedj]

It seems like the "Character" rating is subjective, where all the other metrics you use are objective.

 

[aszach01]

As far as I'm concerned, a good rpg villian is one with a compelling backstory and one where the individual actually has a reason (and a good one at that, not just "I'm just doing this because I'm evil" crap like Kefka) to do what they are doing. The only backstory Kefka has is from a missable NPC and he has absolutely no reason to do what he is doing other then "cause I want to". There is no motivation nor any reasons given as to why he wants to utterly destroy the world and rule over all (which in itself is not an original objective at all).

Kefka never develop in the entirety of the game he was the same shit all over again, he was too generic moreover he was just pure evil He has no real motive for his actions other than pointless destruction.

In all honesty I am persuaded to see Kefka as a plot device.

 

[Abortedj]

Would you be so kind as to post your rational for your ratings on the "character" values? Just curious how you came to your conclusions.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Would you be so kind as to post your rational for your ratings on the "character" values? Just curious how you came to your conclusions.

Well it was mostly a rough estimate on how much "story" time the villains were given. Kuja, Sephiroth, Kefka, Seymour they're all given a lot of exposure and development as are Golbez and to an extent X-Death.

Villains like Garland/Chaos and the Emperor on the other hand were just kind of... there. Particularly Chaos.