Was Aerith told that...

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Since this is a headcanon question, here's what I think:

Aerith's communication with the Planet is patchy at best, and as she herself tells Cloud, she often doesn't understand what it's saying. In my headcanon, Tseng told her Zack was dead after the Nibelheim incident, because he was effectively dead, and believing he was dead would help her to move on. However, since Aerith thought she would feel Zack's passing, she was unable to believe he was dead, so she assumed Tseng was lying to her, most probably to protect her feelings. When she started writing the letters and Tseng started accepting them, her belief that Zack was alive was confirmed - which must have begged the question in her mind of why he never got in touch.

After Zack died for real, Tseng brought her letters back to her and told her Zack had been killed fighting a monster in the wasteland, because that was the cover story for the big battle surrounding his death that had given out by the Shinra News Network. Aerith, however, continued to refuse to believe Tseng, for a number of reasons. 1) most importantly, she didn't want Zack to be dead, 2) she no longer trusted Tseng, since he had patently lied to her before, and 3) the continued existence of Cloud, plus the fact that Sephiroth must have been stirring by this point, was blurring the already hard-to-decipher communications she was receiving from the Planet. She definitely felt something when Zack died, but she wasn't sure what it signified. The one thing she was sure about was that Shinra was in some way connected to whatever had befallen Zack. In Tseng's presence she burned her own letters to ensure they would never fall into Shinra's hands, and then told Tseng she was thinking of leaving Midgar, ostensibly to "find herself" but also to see if she could discover what had actually happened to Zack.

Kunsel had no time to say anything to Aerith about Zack escaping, because one of the Turks overheard him, in a bar, shooting his mouth off to some third classes about Zack (Kunsel never could resist showing off how much he knew), and that was the end of him.

That's my take on the subject.

 

[Octo]

And did Tseng lie about where all of Aerith's letters to Zack went?

He stuffed them all down the back of his couch and forgot about them

 

[X-SOLDIER]

What would stop Kunsel from telling her? I'd think he'd tell her as soon as he could that he was alive and on the run. Four years he went missing - everyone thought he was dead. Then he died for real after that. There's no way Aerith couldn't know about it, unless she locked herself in her home and never left it. The first time Zack 'died' it was spread to everyone. When he escaped that news circulated everywhere as well.

And did Tseng lie about where all of Aerith's letters to Zack went?

One it's the "don't count your chickens before they hatch" sort of thing. Two: there's still nothing they can do about it, or put it in a light that won't make here're distrustful of everyone who's been keeping the information secret until now. Third, ShinRa might already be keeping her under a closer watch. Also- despite working on the plate, she lives in the slums, and I always assumed that type of information and gossip wouldn't get to her, since very few fanclubs for anything ShinRa would be popular with the people getting screwed over by the company.

I assume he'd say something along the lines of, "I'll make sure he gets them." because he always intends to, but isn't able to.


X

 

[Octo]

I assume he'd say something along the lines of, "I'll make sure he gets them." because he always intends to, but isn't able to.

Chinny reckon!

I find it hard to believe that a high ranking Shinra employee doesn't have access to a scanner, he could have put them in PDF format (or FF equivalent) and sent them to Zack via email

 

[Dawnbreaker]

And this folks is why you shouldn't screw with storyline from an already established game. What a mindfuck.

That said, I also enjoy this discussion. I always wondered exactly how much information Aerith could glean from the planet. She's a true Ancient, but only half-Ancient, after all. I agree she got a fair bit, but at very least the messages had be somewhat obscure.

 

[ForceStealer]

I really don't see how Crisis Core screwed with this point. Crisis Core is no more definitive about whether she knows than the OG was. Yeah, the ending scene kind of implies she felt it, but movies have been doing that sort of scene forever even with the loved one being a completely unremarkable human. Where's the mindfuck?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think the mindfuck is possible because she's not an unremarkable human. She has precedent for sensing the death of an individual she hadn't even met and only cared about tangentially. You'd think she'd sense her beloved boyfriend dying, and that last scene looks an awful lot like she did.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Aerith is officially unaware of Zack's death.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is an old thread, so forgive me if what I say was said before.

When Elmyra's husband died, Aerith was a little girl who didn't yet realise that she was different from everyone else. When she got older, she started figuring it out. Tseng kept coming round saying, "Don't you hear voices when you're alone?" She denied it. She started denying it to everybody. Even to Elmyra and Zack she pretended that she was just a normal girl. I don't think that this was simply out of fear of Shinra; like any teenage girl would be, she was terrified of being "wierd" and "different". She just wanted the same things any young girl wants; she didn't want to be the last surviving member of a tribe with a mysterious and lonely destiny!

I think she's in denial. That's why she doesn't press Cloud for answers about Zack. She starts asking him, but then she quickly backs off. She doesn't want to have to hear anyone say, "He's dead."

 

[ForceStealer]

I agree that, as I said before, she's in denial. It's just that Aerith fans always seem take that to mean she's obsessive or weak or something which I don't think is true. She sensed his death with abilities she had been downplaying for the last 10 years. I don't think it makes her weak to allow for some hope that she was wrong. And as long as she doesn't learn for sure, that small hope can live.

It doesn't mean she can't (or hasn't) moved on, it doesn't mean she wants Cloud just to be a Zack-substitute (she explicitly says the opposite), it just means she wants to believe that someone she cared about may not have been murdered as she lacks hard evidence.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I agree that she's in denial, but I don't think it's about the fact he's dead, it's about the fact that (as far as she knows) Zack left her.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree that she's in denial, but I don't think it's about the fact he's dead, it's about the fact that (as far as she knows) Zack left her.

With all due respect, that doesn't make any sense. After four years without a word from him, and no replies to any of her letters, she would be well aware that they are not dating any more. Aerith herself tells Cloud that Zack was a ladies' man who probably went off with somebody else. It seems to me that she is trying to make herself believe this story, as a way of silencing the inner voice suggesting that he's dead.

Advent Children seems to imply that Zack and Aerith are together in the afterlife (what afterlife?)... or maybe they're only together in Cloud's imagination. Does Cloud ever actually find out how serious Zack and Aerith were about each other? Does he ever even know that they were dating? How does he find out? Aside from Tseng, who could tell him?

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

My personal headcanon is that Tseng will eventually give the letters back to Elmyra who will share these to Tifa and Cloud. Then Tifa will bawl so hard and Cloud will get drunk and stare at old pictures. Then it's okay again.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I agree that she's in denial, but I don't think it's about the fact he's dead, it's about the fact that (as far as she knows) Zack left her.

Aerith made up the storys about Zack having found someone else because he's a ladies' man because she cannot truly grasp that he has died/ something terrible happened to her. It is a comforting lie she tells herself.

As for the letters, they might still be inside that sealed box in the ShinRa building.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Well yeah Aerith fans don't like the whole "she's in denial" smutchk because it suggests dishonesty and dishonesty is a negative trait, it makes some people think the worst of Aerith and gives peeps (Aerith haters) ammunition to work with. I dunno I just find it difficult to believe a character who is painted by Square Enix to be pure, innocent, chaste and all that jazz is a liar and so messed up in the head

I sensed from the original game at least Aerith genuinely believed in what she was saying, I didn't think she was in denial then. Later canon buh ...

I think I'll stick to my headcanon of FFVIIo because it paints Aerith in a better light!

 

[Lex]

I think it's perfectly plausible that a part of her realised he had died and the more human/ normal side of her decided to hope he was still alive, since she had absolutely no physical proof. That's denial too, and it's quite common to hope for the best when you're quite sure something awful has actually happened. I don't see that as a negative. Sometimes people have to believe things they know aren't true to be able to cope.

Similarly, I can see why people would think in the OG she was portrayed as pure and innocent etc but I don't see her that way. IMO she was always the most outspoken in the group, out of the females she's a bit hot-headed and she's kinda bossy. There's also that one instance in the Gold Saucer where she's a bit of a bitch to Barret because she can't be bothered with his moping. These are all things I like about her, I'm just pointing out that she's not quite as demure as people seem to think IMO. She's definitely not a saint.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think it's perfectly plausible that a part of her realised he had died and the more human/ normal side of her decided to hope he was still alive, since she had absolutely no physical proof. That's denial too, and it's quite common to hope for the best when you're quite sure something awful has actually happened. I don't see that as a negative. Sometimes people have to believe things they know aren't true to be able to cope.

Similarly, I can see why people would think in the OG she was portrayed as pure and innocent etc but I don't see her that way. IMO she was always the most outspoken in the group, out of the females she's a bit hot-headed and she's kinda bossy. There's also that one instance in the Gold Saucer where she's a bit of a bitch to Barret because she can't be bothered with his moping. These are all things I like about her, I'm just pointing out that she's not quite as demure as people seem to think IMO. She's definitely not a saint.[/QUOTE]

This so much.

This is a girl who was raised in the slums, pursued by Shinra, who had a very ambiguous relationship with the head of the Turks and who constantly had to use all her wits to survive. This is a girl who roamed the slums at will and did exactly as she pleased (according to Elmyra). This is a girl who knew all about what went on at the Honeybee and Don Corneo's, whose first answer to the Tifa problem was that Cloud should cross-dress, and who used her feminine wiles at the door of the whorehouse to hold the men at bay and sell them flowers.
She could hardly be all sweetness and light, and she was anything but naive.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I don't really think it degrades her character for her to recognise that Zack is dead and still be in denial about it. It's not rational, sure, but being irrational is a trait of being a human. Granted, Aerith is only half-human, but we're not really given any reason to believe that Cetra are any more rational than humans.

Most people, if their significant other died away from them, and they never saw the body or had it officially confirmed to them that they were dead, would want to entertain the hope that they were still alive. Anyone who uses that against Aerith is being silly.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well yeah Aerith fans don't like the whole "she's in denial" smutchk because it suggests dishonesty and dishonesty is a negative trait, it makes some people think the worst of Aerith and gives peeps (Aerith haters) ammunition to work with.

Being in denial doesn't make you a liar. Not in the same sense. It makes her emotionally distraught, and psychologically incapable of facing a harsh truth immediately. It's a very human response.

I dunno I just find it difficult to believe a character who is painted by Square Enix to be pure, innocent, chaste and all that jazz is a liar and so messed up in the head

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Aerith is many things, but 'innocent' and 'chaste' she ain't. This is the woman who came up with the plan to dress Cloud as a woman to sneak him into a slumlord's mansion and managed to wheedle thousands of gil from dangerous hoodlums outside a gentleman's club. Aerith is EARTHY. And she's better for it.

I sensed from the original game at least Aerith genuinely believed in what she was saying, I didn't think she was in denial then. Later canon buh ...

Denial and genuine belief in what you believe are not automatically at odds with each other.

I think I'll stick to my headcanon of FFVIIo because it paints Aerith in a better light!

I think Aerith having very human flaws that she deals with makes her a better character. I've never been fond of the 'Materia Jesus' Sue style archetype that folks give her as, because the best part about FFVII is that everyone is extremely human, and it always felt like it was removing her humanity.

 

[Octo]

Most people, if their significant other died away from them, and they never saw the body or had it officially confirmed to them that they were dead, would want to entertain the hope that they were still alive. Anyone who uses that against Aerith is being silly.

I do this with a cat I had, he ran away in 2002, he was at least 15 years old then and its probable that he went away to die, but part of me still thinks he might turn up again

I think Aerith definitely knows something happened, even if shes not 100% sure what. It seems unlikely that she could know about Elmyras husband who she never met and yet be clueless about Zack.

 

[Lex]

I do this with a cat I had, he ran away in 2002, he was at least 15 years old then and its probable that he went away to die, but part of me still thinks he might turn up again

I think Aerith definitely knows something happened, even if shes not 100% sure what. It seems unlikely that she could know about Elmyras husband who she never met and yet be clueless about Zack.

This was something I thought about in the Original Game too. I don't see her not knowing something happened to him. Since she happened upon Elmyra's husband as a child, what are the chances she wouldn't be actively trying to contact whatever power it is she has to find out about Zack? Since she actually cares about him and would want to know where he's been for 4 years

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Most people, if their significant other died away from them, and they never saw the body or had it officially confirmed to them that they were dead, would want to entertain the hope that they were still alive. Anyone who uses that against Aerith is being silly.

I think that often you literally cannot believe that the loved done is dead until you see their dead body.

I hate idealised Aerith; it diminishes her as a character.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I should have phrased my post better. What I mean is that I think Aerith is in denial about the seriousness of her relationship with Zack, as well as being in denial about having loved Zack, because she thinks he left her.

 

[minimosey]

Does Cloud ever actually find out how serious Zack and Aerith were about each other? Does he ever even know that they were dating? How does he find out? Aside from Tseng, who could tell him?

He remembered the truck ride with Zack talking about crashing with a girl in Midgar, and he probably pieced it together at some point that with how Aerith had been talking about him, he must have been talking about her. Add in that AC shows Cloud flashing back to a number of different scenes with Zack and it's fully possible that Cloud's remembered other memories with him too. Then toss in that CC Zack dies thinking of Aerith and was determined to get to Midgar for her and it's easy to imagine that he rambled about her to a headbobbing Cloud once or twice. Especially since the dying thought was for Cloud to say "hi" to her for him, implying he thought Cloud might know her if he saw her.

On the other hand, there's not much suggestion Tseng has had any communication with Cloud prior to Advent Children for Cloud to know from him. The Turks are busy with their thing and mostly staying in the background, Cloud and Tifa have their own worries. Tifa's line to Reno on the phone implies it's been a while since any contact occurred. I think it's more likely he figured it out on his own.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

I really wish Tseng would give back Aerith's letter to Elmyra who will share them to Cloud and Tifa. Then wangst.