What is Hojo a Professor of?

[Clement Rage]

Some species can crossbreed. Maybe Nanaki is an exception.

...and I'm going to stop that thought right there in case I somehow contribute to increasing the number of Nanaki sex scenes in the world.

People are inclined to say, 'Hojo is bad at science' but I think that's largely just because they dislike him.

He was correct about the Jenova Reunion, even though he missed a few details. Sephiroth was far more successful than Genesis and Angeal, or anything anyone else had done. His job is to create monsters and SOLDIERs, and from everything we've seen, he's quite good at that.

When he saw Chaos, he was able to perfectly recreate the conditions for producing Omega, even though he initially didn't believe in it, he was able to understand perfectly Lucrecia's 'abstract and complex' thesis. He was able to do all that stuff to Vincent, and all that stuff in Deepground.

 

[hian]

Obviously Hojo's a liberal arts professor. He's very liberal about his experiments, and some of what he makes could certainly qualify as blend of modern art and performance art.

 

[jazzflower92]

Obviously Hojo's a liberal arts professor. He's very liberal about his experiments, and some of what he makes could certainly qualify as blend of modern art and performance art.

He certainly knows the art of being an unethical cretin.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Obviously Hojo's a liberal arts professor. He's very liberal about his experiments, and some of what he makes could certainly qualify as blend of modern art and performance art.

He certainly knows the art of being an unethical cretin.

He's really the secret hero of the whole game. If not for his ideas and experiments, Jenova would have never been fully neutralized by the planet.

 

[Kieron_ODuibhir]

People are inclined to say, 'Hojo is bad at science' but I think that's largely just because they dislike him...

...When he saw Chaos, he was able to perfectly recreate the conditions for producing Omega, even though he initially didn't believe in it, he was able to understand perfectly Lucrecia's 'abstract and complex' thesis. He was able to do all that stuff to Vincent, and all that stuff in Deepground.

XD I mean, I'm sure Sephiroth was in the habit of dragging Hojo compared to Gast because it was the only reliable way he had of lashing out at his terrible parent, but the fact that that evidently worked suggests to me Hojo was really sensitive to such comparisons.

It's a good point about the stuff his copy pulled off in Dirge of Cerberus, but on the other hand everything he ever achieved was closely derivative of someone else's work, accomplished in collaboration, or both. Two of the best things he made, Cloud and Vincent, he tossed out as failed garbage projects, the latter wasn't functional until Lucretia did her bit and the monsters are honestly not a huge bonus to anything anyway, and the only thing we know for sure he contributed to Sephiroth was his own DNA and setting him up to go crazy. It's not really a great record.

Hojo may not be as incompetent as the weird breeding attempt suggests--he *did* try that the day before Jenova and Sephiroth made their move, and he'd added a lot of Jenova to his body so he was probably vulnerable to fluctuations in whatever psychic band their horrible little family works on. He could easily have had a major spike in crazy right about then; he does walk out on his job and go to the beach the next day. (Actually, that may be the sanest thing Hojo ever does? Hm.) But I still get the impression of someone who's not actually a genius but has spent his whole life trying to prove he actually is, at any cost.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Tres: I've got some headcannons about that... mostly along the lines of "if the Lifestream is in every living thing, what does that say about the part of the Lifestream in Hojo"? Yeah...

Then again, my favorite take on the plot of FFVII is that it's an outsider POV of a fight between two Eldritch Horrors and the only reason why the Lifestream is the "good guy" is that it's told from the POV of the lower dimension beings that make up the Lifestream. Hojo, Gast and Hollander are the Lifestream doing a bunch of experimenting on different methods absorbing another Eldritch Horror and Sephiroth, Cloud, Angeal, Genesis, etc. are just collateral damage. Without them, Jenova would have devoured the Lifestream instead of the other way around.

From the limited POV of Cloud and Co. Hojo and Sephiroth are just plain evil. From the Lifestream's POV they performed an invaluable service in giving her the means to finish off Jenova. The problems of Geostigma and Omega are worth it because the Lifestream is actually around to have those problems in the first place...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wow I love that.

 

[Kieron_ODuibhir]

XD That is cool! I think even in that scenario Planet gets points for less sadism.

Wasn't the sealed form of Jenova less of an existential threat than Shinra's mako extraction, though?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Hojo may not be as incompetent as the weird breeding attempt suggests--he *did* try that the day before Jenova and Sephiroth made their move, and he'd added a lot of Jenova to his body so he was probably vulnerable to fluctuations in whatever psychic band their horrible little family works on. He could easily have had a major spike in crazy right about then; he does walk out on his job and go to the beach the next day.

My understanding was that he didn't enhance himself with Jenova until after he saw Vincent become Chaos.

 

[Clement Rage]

People are inclined to say, 'Hojo is bad at science' but I think that's largely just because they dislike him...

...When he saw Chaos, he was able to perfectly recreate the conditions for producing Omega, even though he initially didn't believe in it, he was able to understand perfectly Lucrecia's 'abstract and complex' thesis. He was able to do all that stuff to Vincent, and all that stuff in Deepground.

XD I mean, I'm sure Sephiroth was in the habit of dragging Hojo compared to Gast because it was the only reliable way he had of lashing out at his terrible parent, but the fact that that evidently worked suggests to me Hojo was really sensitive to such comparisons.

It's a good point about the stuff his copy pulled off in Dirge of Cerberus, but on the other hand everything he ever achieved was closely derivative of someone else's work, accomplished in collaboration, or both. Two of the best things he made, Cloud and Vincent, he tossed out as failed garbage projects, the latter wasn't functional until Lucretia did her bit and the monsters are honestly not a huge bonus to anything anyway, and the only thing we know for sure he contributed to Sephiroth was his own DNA and setting him up to go crazy. It's not really a great record.

Hojo may not be as incompetent as the weird breeding attempt suggests--he *did* try that the day before Jenova and Sephiroth made their move, and he'd added a lot of Jenova to his body so he was probably vulnerable to fluctuations in whatever psychic band their horrible little family works on. He could easily have had a major spike in crazy right about then; he does walk out on his job and go to the beach the next day. (Actually, that may be the sanest thing Hojo ever does? Hm.) But I still get the impression of someone who's not actually a genius but has spent his whole life trying to prove he actually is, at any cost.

but on the other hand everything he ever achieved was closely derivative of someone else's work, accomplished in collaboration, or both.

You could say the same about basically every scientist ever, but even so, Sephiroth is pretty much always earmarked as his work, and Hollander is the one with the failed derivative copy.

We don't know what he intended with Vincent, he might have been something like proof of concept never intended to be put to use. Cloud is considerred a failure, but he was basically catatonic for months, so that's a pretty reasonable conclusion.

Sephiroth was like 5 when Gast disappeared, he's not best placed to judge his scientific merit.

"if the Lifestream is in every living thing, what does that say about the part of the Lifestream in Hojo"? Yeah...

Isn't that kind of like saying 'evil people have blood too, therefore blood is a bad thing?'

 

[Octo]

Hojo was President Shinras proctologist and he blackmailed his way into the job

 

[jazzflower92]

Hojo was President Shinras proctologist and he blackmailed his way into the job

That's hilarious.

 

[ForceStealer]

While I never took it as far as Hojo acting on the will of the Lifestream, I have always noticed that he was simultaneously the cause and the solution to all the worlds's problems. Creating Sephiroth, countered by enhancing Cloud. Calling Omega, countered by his experiments on Vincent. He's his own worst enemy He does say he's even beginning to hate himself.

My understanding was that he didn't enhance himself with Jenova until after he saw Vincent become Chaos.

Despite having already taking a hit of Jenova before the battle in which he could have seen Vincent transform? Hurray Compilation timeline!

 

[Kionae]

XD I know that much of the why, I was more boggled over the logistics of the titular Vice-President spending four years imprisoned in the Department's of Administrative Research's office space. Did he have, like, a cot in a corner of somebody's office, or a proper living space? I am really amused to imagine him sleeping under a desk but am sure this did not happen.

I like to think they kept him chained to Tseng's desk, like a pet.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They didn't need to chain him, he was right where he wanted to be.

What did Hojo know about President Shinra's back passage that was so blackmail-worthy? We demand answers! The public has a right to know!

 

[Roger]

Despite having already taking a hit of Jenova before the battle in which he could have seen Vincent transform? Hurray Compilation timeline!

I imagine Vincent went Chaos in the random encounters against the SOLDIER First Class enemy type that you get in the corridors leading up to Hojo and Hojo witnessed this.

 

[jazzflower92]

They didn't need to chain him, he was right where he wanted to be.

What did Hojo know about President Shinra's back passage that was so blackmail-worthy? We demand answers! The public has a right to know!

This smells like a chance for a media circus to happen.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Wasn't the sealed form of Jenova less of an existential threat than Shinra's mako extraction, though?

Not really. What made Jenova a threat to the Lifestream is that Jenova was eating/absorbing it when she got in contact with it in Mako form. So the Lifestream prevents this by withdrawing from the Northern Crater. But Jenova is still around and has to be dealt with. Jenova doesn't devour the Lifestream when the Lifestream is in the form of living things, it instead merges with them. So the Lifestream's goal is to absorb various mixes of Lifestream/Jenova until it's figured out how to absorb the rest of Jenova.

Mako extraction is bad if done in large amounts, but since it's also something that leads to a lot of Jenova/Lifestream experimentation, the Lifestream is willing to put up with it. It's kinda like how getting biopsies creates a hole in a person, but is needed to figure out if something's wrong or not. Also, mako extraction has only been going on for a few decades and the Lifestream and Jenova have been around for millennia. Their sense of time is very different from the living things on the Planet.

This is also my headcannon for why Sephiroth is so mad at the Lifestream after he falls into it. The Lifestream really doesn't care all that much that Sephiroth is a monster because that was the whole point. In fact, Sephiroth falling into the Lifestream is when it wins over Jenova as since Sephiroth has absorbed Jenova and the Lifestream can absorb Sephiroth. Sephiroth hates that the Lifestream was using him, so he tries to absorb the Lifestream...

While I never took it as far as Hojo acting on the will of the Lifestream, I have always noticed that he was simultaneously the cause and the solution to all the worlds's problems.

This really depends on whose POV you're coming from. From Hojo's POV he's definetly doing what he want's to do (and what Jenova wants him to do). From the Lifestream's POV, it wants people to play around with Lifestream/Jenova hybrids when it finishes melting the ice around Jenova. And if that coincides with people finally figuring out how mako behaves and deciding to mix the two together, well that's just too bad for Jenova.

It's less that Hojo is acting on the will of the Lifestream and more that there's been an upswing in living beings whose desire is to experiment and innovate in general. The Lifestream doesn't know what will work, so it casts as wide a net as it can. Like, Cid and Reeve would be a part of this too. Hojo is just the one who manages to get the Lifestream/Jenova mix just right.

 

[Clement Rage]

The Turks are professional kidnappers, they probably have some kind of cells in their office.

I imagine Vincent went Chaos in the random encounters against the SOLDIER First Class enemy type that you get in the corridors leading up to Hojo and Hojo witnessed this.

Or at any other point Reeve could have reported it? When does the average Levelgrinder get to Chaos?

 

[Roger]

The Turks are professional kidnappers, they probably have some kind of cells in their office.

I imagine Vincent went Chaos in the random encounters against the SOLDIER First Class enemy type that you get in the corridors leading up to Hojo and Hojo witnessed this.

Or at any other point Reeve could have reported it? When does the average Levelgrinder get to Chaos?

Hojo quit Shinra to follow Sephiroth on his own. Then he pulled him back in for the journey to Northern Continent which Reeve did not participate in. After that Cait Sith went rogue. I suppose it could have happened in the week that Tifa was unconcious but so could Hojo witnessing Vincent go Chaos without involving Reeve at all.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Despite having already taking a hit of Jenova before the battle in which he could have seen Vincent transform? Hurray Compilation timeline!

I imagine Vincent went Chaos in the random encounters against the SOLDIER First Class enemy type that you get in the corridors leading up to Hojo and Hojo witnessed this.

He could have even noticed while the Shin-Ra execs were flying over the Northern Crater in the Highwind. Vincent may have transformed during a fight taking place below.

This particular conundrum used to bother me, but it really doesn't now. There's time and opportunity for it to have occurred.

Wasn't the sealed form of Jenova less of an existential threat than Shinra's mako extraction, though?

Not really. What made Jenova a threat to the Lifestream is that Jenova was eating/absorbing it when she got in contact with it in Mako form. So the Lifestream prevents this by withdrawing from the Northern Crater. But Jenova is still around and has to be dealt with. Jenova doesn't devour the Lifestream when the Lifestream is in the form of living things, it instead merges with them. So the Lifestream's goal is to absorb various mixes of Lifestream/Jenova until it's figured out how to absorb the rest of Jenova.

Mako extraction is bad if done in large amounts, but since it's also something that leads to a lot of Jenova/Lifestream experimentation, the Lifestream is willing to put up with it. It's kinda like how getting biopsies creates a hole in a person, but is needed to figure out if something's wrong or not. Also, mako extraction has only been going on for a few decades and the Lifestream and Jenova have been around for millennia. Their sense of time is very different from the living things on the Planet.

This is also my headcannon for why Sephiroth is so mad at the Lifestream after he falls into it. The Lifestream really doesn't care all that much that Sephiroth is a monster because that was the whole point. In fact, Sephiroth falling into the Lifestream is when it wins over Jenova as since Sephiroth has absorbed Jenova and the Lifestream can absorb Sephiroth. Sephiroth hates that the Lifestream was using him, so he tries to absorb the Lifestream...

While I never took it as far as Hojo acting on the will of the Lifestream, I have always noticed that he was simultaneously the cause and the solution to all the worlds's problems.

This really depends on whose POV you're coming from. From Hojo's POV he's definetly doing what he want's to do (and what Jenova wants him to do). From the Lifestream's POV, it wants people to play around with Lifestream/Jenova hybrids when it finishes melting the ice around Jenova. And if that coincides with people finally figuring out how mako behaves and deciding to mix the two together, well that's just too bad for Jenova.

It's less that Hojo is acting on the will of the Lifestream and more that there's been an upswing in living beings whose desire is to experiment and innovate in general. The Lifestream doesn't know what will work, so it casts as wide a net as it can. Like, Cid and Reeve would be a part of this too. Hojo is just the one who manages to get the Lifestream/Jenova mix just right.

Creative and imaginative as this idea is, it reminds me too much of that perona77 couple's theory in which all of FFXV's NPCs are Messengers of the gods. If everyone were an unwitting tool with no actual agency, it would kind of make FFVII bland by sucking a lot of the irony in its story out of it.

 

[Ite]

Wait, the Lifestream is a god?? With like opinions and agency?? Wh-- what the sam hell

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is the lifestream itself a god, or is it the life-force of the planet? The planet is itself an entity, though how sentient it is, is open to question. It always seemed to me that the life-stream couldn't be separated from the planet any more than a soul can be separated from its body; they're essentially the same person. If the soul is removed, the body dies. The problem with Shinra and most of the people of FFVII is that they forgot their planet was a single living entity that needed to be nurtured and cared for, and treated it like a inanimate storehouse of resources.

There's at least several NPCs who say something along the lines of, "Do we really need all this stuff in order to be happy?" This seems quite prescient when I think about the current trend for small houses, simple living, experiences and not things, etc....

 

[ForceStealer]

The Planet always struck me as more animalistic in nature, rather than sentient. Or rather, like the cells in your body but without the brain. It created the Weapons, of course, to deal with Jenova, like white blood cells almost. And the Lifestream will instinctively repair wounds to the body of the planet. But it took Aerith (at least that's the implication) to use the Lifestream "offensively" to stop Meteor.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes. Cid refers to it as a little child, and the noises it makes are whale noises.