What the Compilation Should have been

[Max Payne]

Oh, come on. CC's rendition of that event fixed one of the worst retcons created by the Compilation, and gave us a chance of fighting FFVII's Big Bad in his original, human form.

What retcon? That shit in LO? Or BC?

None of that crap matters to me in the least, nor does fighting Sephiroth in human form AGAIN(FF7, KH1&2). So no sir, I will not "come on".

Why the hell did it take you so long to respond to that post anyway? That post was made, when, at least 4 months ago.

 

[Roger]

How did Before Crisis handle Nibelheim (other then the whole Turk being included in the mission thing)?

None of that crap matters to me in the least, nor does fighting Sephiroth in human form AGAIN(FF7, KH1&2). So no sir, I will not "come on".

Why the hell did it take you so long to respond to that post anyway? That post was made, when, at least 4 months ago.

You cannot count FFVII's scripted and single attack battle against Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

BC's rendition of the Nibelheim conflict was similar to Last Order, including Sephiroth leaping into the pit.

There was the whole subplot with the white kitty, and Sephiroth threatening one of the turks there too.

 

[OWA-2]

What retcon? That shit in LO? Or BC?

Both. Seph jumps in the Lifestream during both LO and BC. It ruined one of Cloud's greatest moments, and diminished Sephiroth's reason for hating him so much.

None of that crap matters to me in the least, nor does fighting Sephiroth in human form AGAIN(FF7, KH1&2). So no sir, I will not "come on".

We don't fight his human form in FFVII, and KH is a lame non-canon game.

Why the hell did it take you so long to respond to that post anyway? That post was made, when, at least 4 months ago.

I don't know dude. Just saw it today and responded.

 

[Max Payne]

You cannot count FFVII's scripted and single attack battle against Sephiroth.

Yes, I easily can.

Both. Seph jumps in the Lifestream during both LO and BC. It ruined one of Cloud's greatest moments, and diminished Sephiroth's reason for hating him so much.

Meh, I never gave those much stock, and never mattered to me.

We don't fight his human form in FFVII, and KH is a lame non-canon game.

Yes we do, even if the fight lasts 30 seconds. Also, the fights with Sephiroth in KH are much more intense and fun in the KH games than the fight in CC, regardless of how lame you think they are.

 

[ForceStealer]

But even ignoring any of that, I find it highly unlikely that there would ever be a Zack game made by anyone that wouldn't include the Nibelheim Incident. Its a pretty major part of his life. BC is the game that probably shouldn't have bothered with it.

 

[Max Payne]

I could have done without a Zack game period.

Wouldn't have to deal with the ridiculous glorification the character gets these days, and his death wouldn't have been fagged up the ass with retarded melodrama.

 

[Dana Scully]

and his death wouldn't have been fagged up the ass with retarded melodrama.

This, so very, very much. Overall I enjoyed CC, but the ending was just stupid. His death should have been harsh and painful and abrupt, not some drawn out speech and going-to-happy-place afterward.

BC I would have been a lot more okay with if it had just stuck to telling its own story - namely that of the Turks vs AVALANCHE. I don't need, or want, to have the Nibelheim incident recited to me five different times.

Especially when you make the real hero a cat. It's just not necessary and it's bad story telling.

 

[minimosey]

I don't know, it's kind of hilarious to think Cloud got shown up by a pussycat.

More seriously, I really do agree on wanting the presentation of Zack's death to be different. I just wonder how you'd show the abruptness of it as it was in the original flashback and still give proper closure to the game?

The only idea I'm coming up with right now is like...you see him collapse, fade-to-black, and get his dying thoughts right before they're swallowed up by green (lifestream). And then go on with Cloud finding him and all that.

 

[Dana Scully]

The only idea I'm coming up with right now is like...you see him collapse, fade-to-black, and get his dying thoughts right before they're swallowed up by green (lifestream). And then go on with Cloud finding him and all that.

IIRC, in the original flashback he's shot, falls, and then one of the MPs comes up and shoots him one more time to finish him off.

So they could show him fall, have his dying thoughts (I'd personally say of Aerith, since getting to her was his goal, but they can be whatever), and then the last shot can be of the MP standing over him raising his gun with a cut to black/gunshot.

Then have Cloud crawl over and do his bit.

None of this DRAMATIC DEATH-BED SPEECH AND RAINBOWS AND FLYING ANGEAL AND FLOATING INTO THE BABY BLUE SKY nonsense.

 

[Ite]

FFVII: Zack is brutally shot inches away from his sanctuary. His body literally shakes with the point-blank machine gun fire. Cloud comes to, slowly losing his fight against the Jenova cells inside of him. The image of a hero shot to a pulp strips away the last of his sanity and he plucks the sword from his dead friend's cold hands. His mind is slowly erasing itself and replacing the holes with new memories. Struggling, Cloud surges his hands to the sky, trembling.

CC: Bishie Samurai Honour J-Pop Nonsense. Message to Square-Enix: GO TO BED.

 

[Kobato]

I could have done without a Zack game period.

Wouldn't have to deal with the ridiculous glorification the character gets these days, and his death wouldn't have been fagged up the ass with retarded melodrama.

Not to mention changing Zack's personality to something more heroic and less of something Irvine and Edgar would be very proud of, hitting on women.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How the hell do you change the personality of a character who never had one? Derp.

CC: Bishie Samurai Honour J-Pop Nonsense. Message to Square-Enix: GO TO BED.

If you weren't moved by Zack and the DMW sequence, then you have no soul. Period.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They could have kept the original version of his death and also included the fading of the DMW, which is the thing that made it so gut-wrenching for me. The heroic final speech, the feathers, the hand coming out of the sky... yeah, I could have done without all that, and in fact once Aerith fades I usually put the PSP down and walk away until the diabolical J-pop finally fades.

 

[Shademp]

I don't mind the J-pop, the final speech, his ascencion and all that. The music touches deep, I feel Cloud deserved this final conversation with (a living) Zack, and Zack ascending works well with the game's theme of angels.

The only thing I mind is that Cloud appears a bit too lucid at the end. After his scream, I don't get the impression that his mind is completely rearranging itself after this trauma and that he is about to deny all his memories of Zack. One can argue that depression works in several stages and this was just the calm before the storm when he ends up at the Sector 7 train station, his mind a complete mess.

I dunno...

 

[minimosey]

I don't know, the whole angel thing was jarring for me in the first place, considering what angels had already become associated with in the series. There's Aerith's Great Gospel with totally unexplained angelic creatures (lol what is FF7 cosmology), yeah, but nearly any fan will think of Sephiroth's One Winged Angel first. The original game and AC both go "WINGS = BAAAAAD", and CC doesn't exactly help with all the Genesis copies. The whole conversation with Cissnei and Zack talking about wings and freedom just left me thinking "wings aren't freedom, they're feathered madness."

Then again, AC did set a precedent for ascension with Kadaj and Aerith. I guess I was more okay with that because Aerith had already been set up as a savior-type figure, even in the original game, and it didn't seem to break the mood as much.

Cloud's instability really doesn't show very well, yeah. If someone started off on CC knowing nothing of the original game, I wouldn't expect them to get what happened between "thanks Zack. I won't forget" and the "I'm Cloud. SOLDIER First class." at the very end. They'd probably think that with the message of brotherhood in SOLDIER the game has, Cloud figured him being Zack's legacy and carrying his pride and dreams made him a SOLDIER, if unofficially. Not that Cloud had totally and completely had his brain broken, and was convinced he actually had been a SOLDIER five years ago.

 

[Shademp]

Although I retain my opinion that CC's ending fits the angelic theme seen throughout, I think that the whole 'angel' thing should never have been a part of the plot at all.
Whenever somebody mentions angels or God in FFVII, I feel that the narrative is incomplete. Here in an otherwise godless world suddenly we are introduced to religious elements. How much is christian mythology part of the population's consciousness? Which leads me to wonder, how old is the church in the Sector 5 Slums? 'What type of religion is/was it linked to? Did its popularity cease at some point, and if so, when?
I like the church because it is never specified what religion it was devoted to. It's just a nice building and, usually, doesn't make us question what religious movements exists in FFVII. But now with angels being mentioned in CC, I'm starting to wonder if the church really IS supposed to be a remnant of some christian-esque religion.

I don't mind angels and demons inside battles; Aerith using Great Gospel or Sephiroth's theme song being titled 'One Winged Angel' does not intrude on the narrative. But when people start talking about angels in Crisis Core I suddenly don't know what type of universe I am in.

Now entities like Minerva are more natural to the story; the Lifestream is the prevalent 'supernatural', although quite tangible, force and Minerva is a natural idea sprung from it. Parts like this I like when FFVII stays true to and follows up its OWN mythology.

So my opinion is that angels should never have been mentioned in the story. I would have also preferred for God not to be mentioned even in character exclamations, but meh I guess I can deal with Yuffie saying "OH MY GAAAWWWWD!"

Edit: To make my point more clear, remember when Anakin in 'The Phantom Menace' asks Padmé if she is an angel? Although MORE out of place here than in Crisis Core, you can see my point. Angels don't belong in Star Wars.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's a whole mishmash of religious elements and lore in FFVII's world. Why would the god of the underworld Hades be referenced? Or devils? Or other such things?

Angels are hardly a big deal, considering the context of all that's shown in FFVII. They're all tied to the collective unconscious and magic that stems from the Lifestream.

 

[Masamune]

Let's leave the awkward angel symbolism to George Lucas.

 

[looneymoon]

I always thought literally giving Sephiroth one wing was pretty tasteless myself. I mean, it works for his mutated final boss form but otherwise I found it was making a poignant symbol far too literal.

As for the presence of religious elements in general - I don't really see what's the big deal. I always got the impression that only very few people were aware of what the Lifestream actually was. It's only natural different forms of religious beliefs would form. Plus, the functions of these things within the world is highly irrelevant anyway. It's the imagery and what it invokes onto the player that's important.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're all way too serious with your symbolism, Christ.

I hope the next Compilation title shows a character doing the sign of the cross when Gackt appears to rape everyone.

 

[Roger]

I liked the final battle, the DMW destruction, the first view getting shot, the final scene with Cloud, the J-Pop and Zack's getting lifted up by Angeal... The whole package, not so much. Zack took his sweetass time to get around to dying. If you are going for an unwinnable playable battle, go for it and let it end there.
If you are going to use a gameplay mechanic to get a continuity nod along with flashbacks of his friends as his life flashes before his eye before getting a bullet put between his eyes, cool go with that.
If you wanna focus on him and Cloud instead, passing on his legacy with the last of his strength. that's all sweet and good. Do just that, not a scene of Zack losing his memory of Cloud two seconds before this.
If you are gonna exhaust this whole angel thing you had going in this game.. well you get the point.
It's like they exhausted every cliche they could think of for Zack's death.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Squenix admitted that Last Order was only an 'interpretation' of what happened at Nibelheim.

But that explanation is clearly not what was intended, as the text of the report Tseng is reading in LO says that the Turks concluded that Cloud killed Sephiroth, not that Seph jumped in. As if it weren't obvious enough that Tseng wouldn't have been imagining things like Cloud and Tifa talking and referencing their promise.

In any event, as Mako mentioned, Seph jumping was in BC too, not just LO, so even were LO just Tseng's acid trip (it wasn't), that would still have been in play.

There was so much wrong with Nibelheim in CC.

There was so much wrong with CC period.

I don't mind the J-pop, the final speech, his ascencion and all that. The music touches deep, I feel Cloud deserved this final conversation with (a living) Zack, and Zack ascending works well with the game's theme of angels.

The only thing I mind is that Cloud appears a bit too lucid at the end. After his scream, I don't get the impression that his mind is completely rearranging itself after this trauma and that he is about to deny all his memories of Zack. One can argue that depression works in several stages and this was just the calm before the storm when he ends up at the Sector 7 train station, his mind a complete mess.

I dunno...

I liked the final battle, the DMW destruction, the first view getting shot, the final scene with Cloud, the J-Pop and Zack's getting lifted up by Angeal... The whole package, not so much. Zack took his sweetass time to get around to dying. If you are going for an unwinnable playable battle, go for it and let it end there.
If you are going to use a gameplay mechanic to get a continuity nod along with flashbacks of his friends as his life flashes before his eye before getting a bullet put between his eyes, cool go with that.
If you wanna focus on him and Cloud instead, passing on his legacy with the last of his strength. that's all sweet and good. Do just that, not a scene of Zack losing his memory of Cloud two seconds before this.
If you are gonna exhaust this whole angel thing you had going in this game.. well you get the point.
It's like they exhausted every cliche they could think of for Zack's death.

I can't possibly agree with these two posts more.

 

[Sigbru]

While I do think the DMW idea at the end was clever, it does not excuse having to deal with that Scrappy Mechanic for the whole game. But maybe it's just me

I saw someone mention here, and I've seen it before, is Zack's personality much different in BC than in CC?