What Went Wrong?

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Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Your argument is a baffling to me. You talk about the decline of the gaming industry (e.g. the FF series) whilst citing FFX as one of the last great Final Fantasies. A game that was linear as hell, poorly structured, and was littered with gratuitous cutscenes. Yet you're hating on FFXII, which was almost the reverse and actually encouraged people to, y'know, play a game?

Excuse me, though, for I am ignoramus.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
These games are still great today. Sure, the graphics are dated but they are still playable and fun. You can see the effort placed into these games; I still rank Mario 3 as one of the greatest games of all time. It didn't need 720p or any p to be great. It just needed solid game play and some catchy music. It didn't even need a story. Games from this era are an example of pure game play.

One game I did miss out on of course was Final Fantasy VI. Although I feel today it is over rated, there is no doubt in my mind that for the time, it was leaps and bounds above most games. Definitely, I'd have ended up being a fanatic of that game had I not started with Final Fantasy VII, which raised the bar completely.

Final Fantasy VI is still a great game, and a game that holds true to the classic Final Fantasy formula. Graphics that are equal to if not pushing the system at times, a story based journey, great game play and music, good pacing and Replayability. I think this is the first Final Fantasy that really cemented the series into what would be a great run, lasting up until Final Fantasy X-2. That is April 1994 - March 2003. A whole decade of greatness.



2. Sakaguchi leaving. I am not sure really what effect this had... if any. I can't be sure. A lot of things happened in the time from Final Fantasy X to Final Fantasy X-2 to be sure of 1 main fault... but I think it would be silly to dismiss this as inconsequential. The guy was the father of Final Fantasy and must have had some input, especially guidance. Final Fantasy was his baby, and he wouldn't want to see it become a cash cow.

3. The merger. Again, as I said, perhaps this is too convenient an excuse but there can be no doubt that the games after the merger are less in quality and more driven to make a quick buck. And quantity also increased: http://www.metacritic.com/feature/how-does-final-fantasy-13-compare?page_comment=6 see the graph.

Now, it could be that number 1 was the real reason, and that everything else ended up that way because of that craving for cash... but I think the real turning point is the fact that people have bought into the Final Fantasy name. Whereas I was open minded enough to jump off the train when I realised the games were never going to get better, others have continued to buy Final Fantasy. It has sent the company a clear message that they can do as they please. Nothing would possess me to buy Final Fantasy XIII. After extensively reviewing it, the only good thing I can say about it (in terms of comparing to VI-X) is it has better graphics. That is it. XIII has awakened more people from their fanboy stupor, as many more gave this game a negative reaction in reviews, but it still hasn't sunk in with some (http://gematsu.com/2011/09/square-e...in-renews-final-fantasy-versus-xiii-trademark the people here must have a collective IQ of around 10, same here: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6458&page=186).

Final Fantasy continues to sell enough that Senix are making a large profit, and if they can do that by pumping out spin offs, graphic fests or remakes, they will (provided the remakes are easy to make of course, like the so-called HD version of Final Fantasy X). Simply put, they are not only getting enough sales from the fps generation of gamers, they are getting support from fans of the series who should have cast them aside after Final Fantasy XII, like I did. They don't. You cannot blame Senix for continuing to laugh in people’s faces when they are doing as they please with no repercussions. They know that Final Fantasy XIII was negatively received compared to the other games, they have even made statements that the western gamers "don't get it." But we do get it- they don’t care.

I understand all too well that the games are getting worse. I know this to be true when I see mini-games disappearing, towns disappearing, exploration disappearing, a literal gauntlet play through, quantity of things to do disappearing, dialogue becoming verbose and ridiculous, character development becoming amateurish, story becoming convoluted and nonsensical. I can see these things, I can demonstrate these things. They are not my imagination. One of the most laughable things I have seen people doing is making an excuse for Final Fantasy XIII by way of "Oh well, I didn’t really like towns." "Oh well, I didn't really care for NPC", "Well, I didn't even play mini-games". Am I the only person who realises how useless that argument is, and how stupid it sounds? Senix are turning an RPG series into a dumbed down shooter-type. The player is becoming an inconvenience to their graphic masturbations and they are selling out the same fanbase that got them to where they are in the first place.

And it isn't just Final Fantasy that has this problem. Resident Evil, Command and Conquer and Metal Gear Solid, have all gone worse in recent years. They are all about dazzling the audience with graphics, and to hell with quality game-play or decent pacing. Who cares, right? It sells. I despair the number of people who have been sucked into this, and buy these games on the back of nostalgia... you are deluding yourselves like a religous fanatic would his religion. Nothing changes when you vote for the same political party and nothing changes when you continue to buy a game on the back of graphics, hype, fanboyism or nostalgia.

I know there are a number of people out there who genuinely like Final Fantasy XII, XIII, MGS4, Resident Evil 4 and 5. Like them all you want, but they are shallow compared to what went before. They are lacking in the very things that MADE them what they are. When you tear out engaging puzzles, real suspense and a haunting soundtrack from Resident Evil, it isn't Resident Evil. When you make your game a heap of nostalgia with 100 lengthy cut scenes, the worst pacing of all time, rip out all the fun sneaking aspects, and make it a near first person shooter, it is no longer Metal Gear Solid. When you sacrifice tactic and brainpower for graphics and explosions, it is no longer Command and Conquer and when you f*cking well rip out what makes a jRPG a jRPG, it is no longer what I fell in love with.

Like these "new" games all you want, but don't tell me I should accept it, see it as normal, or god forbid, see it as an "innovation". It isn't. It is just a simple, easy way for them to make money, and your enjoyment comes second. Now, the usual response to this is to point out that all companies care about money and whilst that is true, there used to be a decent balance. There used to be a striving for creativity and quality. That balance has firmly shifted to the money side, and it is as plain as a pair of tits.

The fan inaction may be the main reason for the demise of the games I once loved, but it isn't the only reason. I have realised that the next generation consoles themselves have had a huge effect on this issue. Once upon a time, graphics could be a talking point, but not usually a game seller. The medium the games came on, and the power of the system itself, restricted what could and could not be done. Final Fantasy came on 3 CD's because of the FMV. Those FMV had to be carefully chosen at the correct places, and the game had to have more going on than just FMV's... the graphics could not carry the game, they could only enhance it. Likewise, a DVD did not allow them to do as they pleased with Final Fantasy X.

But then we get 50GB Blu-Ray and cell processors. Now you have a company that can almost do as it pleases... amazing sequences can be so frequent that they don't have to think as much about design. The term here is 'Art from adversity' and this is lacking in today's games. A company has to have responsibility when they are given that much freedom... it isn't as easy as you think. It takes a person to realise that sometimes, more is less... and most people don't get that. Hideo Kojima certainly doesn't.... he thinks that when you have a 50GB Blu-ray disc it is a really just a challenge to see how much of it you can fill up, even if the end user has to then spend half the time installing acts because the game design is retarded. Obviously didn't think MGS4 through at all. Give them a 50GB Blu-ray disc and watch as they try to fill it. Pathetic.

Then we come to the "professional reviewers". When I saw that Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy XII had gained so much praise, I naturally wanted to know why the "professional reviewers" seemingly missed massive, glaring issues with the games. Frequently I see a tactic of completely ignoring the story in a story based game, or filling up the space with verbose waffle. The only conclusion I can make is that either these companies too, are infested with fanboys, or they are scared of a negative backlash or they are in the pocket of big business. Probably all 3. What reviewer can gloss over the story like it doesn't matter to an RPG? What reviewer can give a game 40/40 or 10/10 when there is so much wrong with it? Very few games are "10/10" but most of these "experts" don't have the balls to mention any of the issues, and the fanbase parrot along nodding. It seems that graphics and name will get you far even with the "professionals" same as anyone else. Just slap in graphics, call it Final Fantasy and watch it sell like Hot Cakes. No don't bother giving me a full impartial break down of how you arrived at those insane scores, just crap out verbose waffle about graphics, innovation, style and presentation.

Those are what I see as the main reasons for the demise of Final Fantasy and other game series'. The phrase now is "Quick buck, don't give a f*ck." Final Fantasy has become a victim of its own success.

DLPB

originally
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=12677.0

Since writing this I have had to concede that there are more reasons for where games are going these days and the latest post there is correct that gaming has gone mainstream. It is now possible to cater to the lowest common denominator. Still, as I see it, intelligent gaming is being sacrificed simply for profit, and it is people like me that are being kicked in the teeth. I have been going back to PS1 and 2 games recently to rekindle my passion, as I get no satisfaction from brainless shoot em ups or cash-in spin offs...

I remember being stuck in my bedroom glued to a new game release, now all I can do is go back to older games. I can appreciate some people don't mind mediocrity and are easily entertained, but I am not one of those people, and I won't shell out big money for a game unless it is a very good game.

Okay, you hate XII and XIII, fine.

But quick cash-ins? XII was developed over what, 6 years, I think? XIII even more? And compared to the gameplay of I through X they changed more of the basic gameplay of an FF then any main title has before. Neither of those was taking the easy way out.

They felt they have exhausted the same old formula, they are trying new things, not everyone likes it, it happens. Now XIII, I admit, sacrificed a lot for graphics (really, really, really good graphics), but XII is not any more linear or cutscene driven then X. Less so, I'd say.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
I think that every FF after 9 has been boring and shit. It's no secret around here that I hate much of what SE do these days and I am a massively grumpy old bitch when it comes to the overall quality of games these days. (And I do agree with you on a few points there)

But. How come I (and others here) manage to bitch and moan without resorting to cartoonish insults? I mean, I'm probably the laziest person in the universe but I don't find it a massive effort not to insult people, even if they do like games I hate.

Anyway, people here are sufficiently thick skinned. You're only going to undermine your own argument when you insult people, and the people here that could help with your project are amongst those insulted, not much motivation to help out there. So uh....stop fucking yourself in the arse? :monster:
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Well said Minato, I will always believe SE is inept before I believe its lazy. Maybe they don't spend all their time on the right stuff, but they spend a LOT of time on it.

Also what Masa said, ff12 and 13 could not be any more different. XII subscribes to NONE of those instant gratification trends you talk about. And 13 and 10 have a LOT more in common. I enjoyed all 3 though, so I guess I'm just a fanboy.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
Jesus christ DLPB, are you fucking serious? Intelligence 101: Never claim to be intelligent, you'll only sound dumb and smug. If you want to post on this forum, at least have the common decency to not be a twat. I'm fine with you posting, I'm not fine with you putting yourself above others - because really, you're not. At least, you haven't proven to be, not with remarks about your claimed intelligence like you're making. Your big post made me believe otherwise for a bit - keep that up, minus the insults, and you'll actually be seen as a smart guy. But putting others down and yourself up, well, doesn't.

Nothing else to add really, :monster:. Games change, people that play games change, publishers change, deal with it and play the new games made by people from our own age group that aren't affected by the big publishers and everything will be fine.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Do not fool yourself into believing I have come back here as a part of this community. I am back as a necessity. You won't see me getting involved in any of the big debates. I have no wish to "join in", my primary objective is getting FF7 translated to the best of my ability.

Then... why the fuck did you make this thread?

You_Suck_At_The_Internet.jpg
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Two? But I only hit it once I swear! :(

The Server hiccup might have sent it twice if you hit refresh.


DLPB, that you directly compare FF12 to FF13 makes me wonder what, if any, you have played of either game.

The two play pretty much nothing alike, FF12 is extremely open ended, with a shit ton of NPCs, sidequests, sidemaps, and nonlinear exploration.

13, sure, it's a straight walk from A to B, but as pointed out, so's 10, and you hold that game up as being great.

Hell, 10-2 is decidedly alinear and I bet you'd chuck it in with 12 and 13.

In short, it sounds like a whole bunch of 'They changed it now it sucks' without any coherent justification apart from you don't like that it's different.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
this is beginning to look familiar.

dlpb: you're all bakas
tls: ?????
dlpb: BAKAS BAKAS ALL OF YOU
tls: stop you don't even speak japanese
dlpb: ...it's not like i like you or anything! *figuratively punches forum and runs away*

it's just like my japanese animes.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
how can dlpb type on his keyboard from the amount of jizz that accumulates from his posts?

honest to god mysteries of the earth
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
What happened ?

Most Gamers these days have a attutide that graphics are the most important quality of the game.

This is a moronic stereotype that really needs to stop.

If anything it's the developers that believe this.
 
Calling out bad, lousy game design is ok, especially when backed up with lots of data. We all want to help improve the industry by telling developers what we want versus do not want.

However, nobody's intelligence should be based purely on what they enjoy or do not enjoy. You can enjoy FFXIII but still be aware of the disappointment that comes with its linearity. Or to pick a personal example, I enjoy some aspects of the story in Star Ocean 4, despite it being pure 100% J-RPG clichés with dialogue you've heard in every animé and J-RPG ever released. One could say I like some of the dialogue because it makes you cringe.

I'll let the Nostalgia Critic team explain my point further...
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
When Final Fantasy VIII came out, it was a preorder. I had never preordered a game before and I was not to be disappointed. The game lived up to the same general quality as Final Fantasy VII.

this is the first thing you've said that's genuinely made me laugh
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Wow, its DLPB.

...And he's posting inflammatory, douchebaggery bullshit on the forum, insulting every member's intelligence. Surprise surprise. This is so shocking and new.

Protip: No one's interested in you trying to wind people up. We're not your flunkies. Either check that ego of yours at the door and speak like a sensible human being, or go back to writing your self insert character while bemoaning the literary tragedy that is Cait Sith's inclusion in FFVII.

No one's interested in playing your juvenile flame games here. I'm closing this thread and giving you another chance to come back here right, and not like some asspained ex-girlfriend or something.
 
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