When did Shinra discover mako energy?

Let me say in advance that I realise there may be no canon answer to this question, or that the canon answer may not make sense in terms of the larger timeline.

There would have been several key events in the development of mako technology
1) the discovery that it could be used as a fuel source
2) the development of the technology to generate energy from mako

It's not like hydro-electricity; the process of generating energy from mako consumes the mako - like coal or oil - so I'm guessing it's burned in some way. Either that or there's some kind of ongoing materia reaction happening. Presumably the reason mako replaced coal and oil was because it was much cheaper to extract from the ground and probably seemed cleaner.

Anybody with more science knowledge than me want to make a suggestion as to how the reactors work?

According to our timeline, "the discovery of mako energy" is dated 1959, but that's a bit like dating "the discovery of steam power" to the completion of Watt's steam engine in 1781. There had been other, less efficient steam engines before his, and the power of steam has been known since ancient times.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yeah the line that immediately came to mind at reading the thread title was Rufus' line in Advent Children Complete, "...and Mako energy has been a part of our lives for over forty years."

And as for the way the reactors work...yeah I dunno. They get treated like nuclear reactors, both from the term "reactor" and the dangers of "exposure" (to Mako rather than radiation). As nuclear reactors work by splitting elements into smaller ones, maybe Mako is similar? Annhiliating lifestream and capturing the released spirit energy? They do imply that materia usage similarly consumes spirit energy, so you may be onto something with the "materia reaction" idea...
 

Lex

Administrator
There are allegories to oil in that it's a finite resource and it's being extracted from the earth, but also nuclear fusion in how its converted into energy (and the lifestream is being "used up" in the process). I mean, either that or it's converted to "mako" and the process is irreversible, I don't know if there's waste or if the lifestream they use is just completely burned up in whatever process. I'd tend to fall on the side of there being waste, because we have shots of the reactors spewing out some form of mako/ lifestream when they're super active.

As for when Shinra discovered it, I have no idea. It hasn't been around for long (in terms of centuries) as far as my own headcanon goes anyway. Does our timeline not have any further information?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
As someone who knows people in the energy business, I pretty much ignore how mako power plants are supposed to work because they don't make a lot of sense when compared to any type of real-world power plant. Essentially, we never hear anything about the byproducts the plants make except for the energy they produce. Instead of the byproducts being the hazardous waste, it's the fuel being burned that is, which is pretty much the opposite of how real-word power plants hazards work. In fact, we don't hear of any byproducts whatsoever which is probably a case of Failed To Do The Research on the part of the creators.

As for why there should be byproducts... All power plants (that aren't hydroelectric or wind based) work by steam power. Water is heated up by burning the fuel (or by nuclear reactions) and forced through a series of pipes to turn the dynamo that creates the actual power. The burning of the fuel itself doesn't create any usable power on it's own. It does leave behind other products that need to be disposed of, and a lot of those are hazardous in some way.

This leaves mako reactors with a bit of a problem if you're going for real-world scientifc analogies. Technically, mako is energy already and is a very usable one at that. Want more physical/mental power? Get mako in you. Or get solidified mako (materia) if you want more immediate effects. And all of that with no energy loss either. It's not like oil/coal where the energy is locked inside unless you do a bunch of chemical reactions to it. What mako isn't good for is being a source for electrical energy. From what we see in-game it's got to go through the same process that normal power-plants go though (burn fuel to make steam to turn the dynamo). I can see this happening if it's easier to get mako then to mine oil/coal or if mako doesn't leave behind any byproducts (it has a 100% energy conversion into heat). Of the two, the second possibility is pretty much the motherload of the energy industry, so I could see why Shin-Ra would have gone for that as soon as they figured out a way to convert mako into heat. No byproduct means a lot of infrastructure that doesn't have to be built. Which might also be why mako reactors can be located in such odd places.

Another other option is that mako reactors aren't so much reactors as mako refining plants. That mako isn't one substance, but is made up of a bunch of different substances and that Shin-Ra figured out how to filter all those substances out. The problem I have with this is that the different types of mako mentioned in-game usually have to do with how much the mako moves around The Planet. Chaos's mako doesn't move at all (and some of the unused text suggests the Summon's mako doesn't/didn't either) while the "main" Lifestream can move from the Northen Crater to Mideel in a matter of days. Materia is essentially mako that can't/doesn't move at all, and yet still has usable energy in it (especially if materia growth/birth isn't just a game mechanic). However, refining mako would answer where all the fuel for non-electricity power comes from for stuff like any type of vehicle and the like; some mako is formed into energy, some is formed into fuel, etc. This still leaves the problem of how mako is turned into energy up in the air though as all non-electric engines run via combustion, which again, assumes that mako behaves like all other fuel types. It also causes the problem of what fuel people use to run vehicle engines post-meteor fall. 'Cause if it's an engine that can only run on refined mako, then they're screwed. And we never see this being a problem in post-metor installments.

Then there's the part of me that says "screw real-world physics, we're in a Final Fantasy game; how do the metaphysics work?". What we do know about the Lifestream is that it's a cycle; mako is formed into lifeforms and then those lifeforms turn back into mako when they die, usually more mako then it took to create them. So as long as mako eventually gets back to the Lifestream, then there's nothing to worry about. The biggest problem with the mako reactors is that they remove mako without replacing it with more mako. Given how mako enhances humans when it interacts with them, I don't see why it couldn't enhance coal/oil the same way. That is, use oil/coal as a "container" for the mako. Shin-Ra would still be using normal power plant physics, but the mako in the oil/coal would cause the energy yields to be crazy high for way less coal/oil. If I were doing the world building, I'd probably make it something like mako causing coal/oil to effectively not convert into byproducts even while still generating heat so long as they had a constant supply of mako. That would explain why mako plants need all that mako supply without needing to rediscover coal and oil post-meteor. It was technically what was being used all along, just extremely efficiently. With no mako, new sources of coal/oil are needed.

Hopefully that'll give you some ideas. I honestly tend to prefer non-real-life science sometimes because then any errors can be attributed to the metaphysics of the setting as opposed to the creators not doing there research. Fortunately, FFVII has a lot of metaphysics to play with...
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I thought those big pits of radioactive waste were the byproducts? The catwalks pass over these tubes that are just dumping neon liquid into a pit. That's not the byproduct?
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
When did Shinra discover mako energy?


maxresdefault.jpg
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I thought those big pits of radioactive waste were the byproducts? The catwalks pass over these tubes that are just dumping neon liquid into a pit. That's not the byproduct?
I don't remember what you're talking about, but it could be.

What we do know is that Sephiroth falls into the Lifestream from the Nibelhiem Reactor so somehow that reactor is built over a place where the Lifestream is exposed on the Planet's surface. As it is, the Lifestream has always been portrayed the way classic "liquid radioactive waste" looks in it's natural state. So I probably assumed that Shin-Ra was piping mako out of the Planet and into a storage tank in the reactor itself.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I believe he means all this business at the bottom:
hqdefault.jpg


Hard to say if that's dumping waste or a reservoir of mako that it's drawing from.
 

Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
I'd say it was drawing from what is essentially a lifestream well. If that was waste, what would happen once it went over that ledge? Also explains why the grass is dead around the city. Suck the water from the ground, the grass dies. I think the energy is released by pressurising the lifestream, one byproduct of that process would be the crystallisation of the mako, which gives materia. In the underground reactor, they take the huge materia from the core. I assume over the years, at the centre of the core, a large crystal forms making the huge materia, and the rest is just a small crystal 'sludge'.

Lots of materials create energy this way and diamonds are formed using very high pressures. So I think they took elements from that. Mako/ the lifestream doesn't give off heat or the northern crater would be a volcano, not a glacier, so it rules out a nuclear type reaction. Could be electrolysis, and materia forms on the carbon rods, but you'd need electricity to produce the electricity, unless it was just used to start a chain reaction, controlled by limiting the flow.

Final suggestion. Mako could be like calcium carbide. When water comes into contact with it, it releases acetylene gas which is flammable. They might be using another substance with the mako
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The only confirmation of any form of waste I can think of off the top of my head is when it's mentioned in Episode Denzel that contaminated water was dumped into the slums from the plate, making the rats filthy. Presumably this was just wastewater, though.

Obsidian said:
If I were doing the world building, I'd probably make it something like mako causing coal/oil to effectively not convert into byproducts even while still generating heat so long as they had a constant supply of mako. That would explain why mako plants need all that mako supply without needing to rediscover coal and oil post-meteor. It was technically what was being used all along, just extremely efficiently. With no mako, new sources of coal/oil are needed.
It's a big plot point, though, that oil did have to be hunted down following Meteorfall, though.
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
And Midgar and Junon and both are referred to as being very polluted. I guess I always assumed that meant more than simply "drained of spirit energy," but maybe not.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
I believe he means all this business at the bottom:
hqdefault.jpg


Hard to say if that's dumping waste or a reservoir of mako that it's drawing from.

I kinda always took those to be the mako reservoirs. Sure they draw it from the planet but after doing their own refining to it, they have a surplus in the main of the reactors (i.e that pic), which the tubs then pull it up from and use on their own monitored/measured basis.
 

Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
Thinking about it a little more. I'd lean towards electrolysis like how a hydrogen generator works. Converting water into hydrogen gas. I think that's what they are doing with the Mako, because when you parachute into Midgar, you're basically told Reeve can't shut off the valve and its a chain reaction because Hojo hasn't allowed it to cool down. If you've ever seen a hydrogen cutting torch, they use water (mako) break it down into hydrogen and burn that. (Hydrogen has much more energy than petrol) but what you often see, is when the pressure becomes to great, or you block it's flow (Shutting off the valve in midgar) you get a backfire and the hydrogen torch blows, igniting all of the gas in the pipes. Boom.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
The biggest hurdle I have to overcome when thinking about getting power from mako is that we have no idea if there's anything smaller on the atomic scale then mako. Given that mako is literally the life energy of The Planet, my gut feeling is that there isn't. In my head it would be like trying to get power by converting kinetic energy into electrical energy, only kinetic energy has a physical form that can be found underground.

Most forms of power gotten by chemical processes rely on splitting molecule/atoms and then recombining them with something else (oxygen for combustion, other neutrons for fusion). Only with mako, I don't see what you could split it into as it's literally life energy.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I'm not sure it's chemical at all, but purely metaphysical. After all, Cloud and Tifa can be completely submerged in it and the only concern is your brain being overloaded, not drowning. But it does react to some physical processes, pressure for example, so I dunno...

Do reactors make materia as a side effect of normal operation? Or is it just a convenient place to also make materia while making electricity?
 
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Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
Never thought of it like that. Perhaps the liquid itself is just a vessel capable of storing and distributing the energy that produces life around the world. Shinra could be separating the process but not at 100% which results in some of the energy being trapped in crystal. Think of the lifestream as the hard drive and the energy as the data.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Perhaps this is how we get the large materia? Then Shinra just learned how to produce regular materia on their own so as to produce more faster?
 
So many great ideas!

Sephiroth
"This is a system that condenses and freezes the Mako energy...
that is, when it's working correctly."
"Now, what does Mako energy become when it's further condensed?"

Cloud
"Uh, umm...... Oh yeah! It becomes a Materia."

Sephiroth
"Right, normally. But Hojo put something else in there. ...Take
a look."
"Look through the window."

What this suggests to me is that the pods in the reactor were originally used to create artificial materia (which would make sense, since materia is a weapon) and then Hojo put human beings in them.

Whether the "condensing and freezing" is the means of producing electricity or creating materia, and if the latter, whether it mimics nature's way of creating materia or is a different process... I dunno.

(It doesn't have to make scientific sense, I guess. But you can only create metaphysical light from metaphysical energy!)
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Oh, I didn't even think of that. So Hojo was essentially subjecting humans to the process used to create materia in the Nibelheim rector? Makes me wonder how closely tied this process is with Sephiroth and members of Soldier outside of the use of Mako.
 

Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
I often wondered if he was trying to make soldiers that could use magic without materia, by adding them to the materia process, rather than just showering them in mako.

As for Cloud and Tifa taking a dive in the stuff.. When you die in ff7 your body returns to the planet (eventually becoming oil) and your conscious does too, via the lifestream. There is no reincarnation, the lifestream wipes it clean and takes the pure energy to be used elsewhere. If something living fell into it, I would imagine it still does the job of wiping your conscious, but your life energy is still held in your body, which is why most end up brain dead, but living.
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I imagine Mako was known to be a possible power source for a long time (the likes of Bugenhagen or the Cetra probably could've done something about it if they wanted to, but since reactors are very expensive it was difficult to industrialise and probably dangerous to work with (there's a bunch of bad side effects to Mako exposure, Mako poisoning, mutations, degradation, and so on.) It was probably available in small scale before then in Lifestream equivalents of Iceland.

President Shinra: Our huge, money sucking Mako reactor is necessary

Since they're called reactors, I thought Mako involved exposing the lifestream to some kind of catalyst which converted it into something else, and materia was a by product like leaving salt crystals behind when you evaporate saltwater.

Isn't there conflicting information about whether the use of materia harms the planet? if there is, I'd say Mako is based on the same principle.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^Materia occurred naturally long before reactors existed. It's just that crystallization takes a really long time in real life without man made processes behind it (look up synthetic diamonds for ideas). Whatever happens in a mako reactor causes crystallization to happen faster then normal, probably as an unintended side effect. We don't seen Huge Materia forming in all the reacors after all, just some of them, and the one from Fort Condor formed in a reactor that hadn't been functioning in years.

On the subject of materia harming the Planet, there was a long well-reasearched thread about it here: Does the use of Materia *actually* drain the Planet's spirit energy?
 
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